Help from other countries?

[Duds]

Gee, i bet the money is just pouring in from foreign countries to help out with the New Orleans disaster....makes me sick to think about all the aid we give to other countries and come to their rescue in times of need, yet when something happens to us, we're expected to handle it ourselves. Pathetic, just pathetic.

[GMichael]

Gee, i bet the money is just pouring in from foreign countries to help out with the New Orleans disaster....makes me sick to think about all the aid we give to other countries and come to their rescue in times of need, yet when something happens to us, we're expected to handle it ourselves. Pathetic, just pathetic.

My favorite part is when we send aid we are told that it's not enough and we should be ashamed of ourselves for sending so little.

[GMichael]

Here is a copy of just one of the emails I received today from people working with me.


While watching the news about Katrina on Tuesday morning my six year old son

was watching with me, and of course asking the usual questions. I did not think

anything of this until I got home that evening from work, sitting on the table

was a soda bottle filled with money. I asked my son what the money was

for and he told me that it was for the “kids”. I asked him what kids, he simply

told me “the kids that lost everything from the bad storm”.



After talking with him and explaining what exactly these people faced,

he ran up the stairs and grabbed his bank and said he wanted to give all

of his money. So for the past couple of days he has been collecting money

all around our neighborhood and around the house. He even took a toy

sword and swept under the dryer for money.



With seeing how important this task was to him I called the Red Cross

and within a few days he will receive a contract stating that he his collecting

on behalf of the Children affected by Katrina.



So with this, we will be placing a container on Craig’s desk and asking

all of you for any donation you wish to give.

[Duds]

Countries love us when they are in need, and hate us when they arent


My favorite part is when we send aid we are told that it's not enough and we should be ashamed of ourselves for sending so little.

[piece-it pete]

I personally blame Canada and the city of Nice, France.

:p

I know the Canadians are mobilizing their disaster forces as we speak. I personally know a few who have already donated cash.

I do understand what you're saying, though. There are undoubtably some who are pleased with our trouble. To them I say, "Hah. We can take care of ourselves". Translation: Screw you!

[GMichael]

I personally blame Canada and the city of Nice, France.

:p

I know the Canadians are mobilizing their disaster forces as we speak. I personally know a few who have already donated cash.

I do understand what you're saying, though. There are undoubtably some who are pleased with our trouble. To them I say, "Hah. We can take care of ourselves". Translation: Screw you!

I think we'll see help from Canada as well as the UK. Thank G.d for them. How many others will step to the plate? And the amount doesn't matter as much as that they try to help somehow.

[Woochifer]

Sheesh, with everything that's happened and the ongoing disaster unfolding in New Orleans, THIS is what's on your mind?

FYI, I just saw the White House daily briefing and Scott McClellan said that the U.S. is not asking for any assistance, but "several countries" have already offered aid.

[Duds]

I'm definitely concerned whats going on down there, seems like we could use some help for a change.


Sheesh, with everything that's happened and the ongoing disaster unfolding in New Orleans, THIS is what's on your mind?

FYI, I just saw the White House daily briefing and Scott McClellan said that the U.S. is not asking for any assistance, but "several countries" have already offered aid.

[kexodusc]

Guys, if we give to another country, it should be for all the right reasons, and because they truly need it and can't do it themselves. I don't think anyone's expected Thailand to open a disaster relief fund.
As for them seeming ungrateful, well, my father has nothing but stories of praise as to how he's treated as a US soldier overseas, and most other soldiers I've spoken with who've done humanitarian work agree. The people appreciate it. But desparation drives people to begging. I think the people you do hear complain are in the unfortunate position of having to keep asking. Think about it for a second. Do you really think some of these countries are going to say, "no, that's enough, we're good now"?
Sure we've got problems at home, but we're in the best position to fix them ourselves.

[GMichael]

Sheesh, with everything that's happened and the ongoing disaster unfolding in New Orleans, THIS is what's on your mind?

FYI, I just saw the White House daily briefing and Scott McClellan said that the U.S. is not asking for any assistance, but "several countries" have already offered aid.

I feel so ashamed.

[Pyrrho]

Gee, i bet the money is just pouring in from foreign countries to help out with the New Orleans disaster....makes me sick to think about all the aid we give to other countries and come to their rescue in times of need, yet when something happens to us, we're expected to handle it ourselves. Pathetic, just pathetic.

You are upset that poor countries are not sending money to the richest country in the world? Do you expect the people who lost everything in the tsunami to send us something?

If a tree fell on Bill Gates' car, would you send him some money to help him out? If a tree fell on your car and Bill Gates sent you some money, that would be nice, but the other way around would be ridiculous.

(Many countries that are able, by the way, have offered aid. Why don't you do a bit of research on this on some of the better online news sites?)

[Duds]

We help poor countries, rich countries, and everyoen in between, yet we shouldnt ask for any help? please. If other have offered aid, thats great. That has not been mentioned in the news that I have watched.


You are upset that poor countries are not sending money to the richest country in the world? Do you expect the people who lost everything in the tsunami to send us something?

If a tree fell on Bill Gates' car, would you send him some money to help him out? If a tree fell on your car and Bill Gates sent you some money, that would be nice, but the other way around would be ridiculous.

(Many countries that are able, by the way, have offered aid. Why don't you do a bit of research on this on some of the better online news sites?)

[paul_pci]

How much do you think Bangladesh should send us? What a moron.

[Duds]

I don't appreciate the name calling


How much do you think Bangladesh should send us? What a moron.

[piece-it pete]

How much do you think Bangladesh should send us? What a moron.

At LEAST $5.00. Get it right!

Pete

[paul_pci]

I don't appreciate the name calling

"Moron" is not a name; it's a description.

[cam]

Our Canadian Prime Minister has talked today with President Bush and has offered help. Were just waiting for the Americans assessment to find out if you need/want our help and if so what in the way of help will be wanted.

[anamorphic96]

We are receiving more offers to help than many of us are lead to believe.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_world_offers

[GMichael]

We are receiving more offers to help than many of us are lead to believe.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_world_offers

Now that's cool.

[shokhead]

I expect all the countries that have ever had there long are with an open hand on the end that says,green only to at least offer. Mexico which is as close as anyone has been silent as far as i have heard but maybe thats changed.

[dean_martin]

We are receiving more offers to help than many of us are lead to believe.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_world_offers

Thanks for posting this link, anamorphoc96. I would recommend that some of you expand your news coverage of this disaster. I just heard an interesting story on foreign nationals trapped in New Orleans from the BBC. I'm afraid there are many stories that aren't getting reported by our major news outlets. By the time they come out, the whole thing will have worn on us for so long that we won't pay attention.

Bayou la Batre, AL of Forest Gump fame was wiped off the map. This shrimping and fishing village has been around for over a century. All these people know is shrimping - the ones that are left. Nevertheless, our governor (bless his kiss-ass heart) had nothing but praise for FEMA and is quoted as saying, "we're in pretty good shape." We can officially start counting the number of $$$, bottles of water, MREs, generators, cots, blankets, etc. leaving/by-passing the state now.

Bush just landed in Mobile today enroute to Biloxi and New Orleans. There are already stories coming out that are none too flattering. The major networks started blaming local officials in New Orleans last night. But the mayor has been on local radio out of La. describing all he's done to urge and beg for help, but to no avail. It's going to be interesting to see how Bush's visit to New Orleans goes.

[shokhead]

Didnt Mayor Ray put some people from the Hilton{tourist} to the front of the bus line?

[dean_martin]

Didnt Mayor Ray put some people from the Hilton{tourist} to the front of the bus line?

I have no idea whether the mayor moved tourists to the front of the bus line, but the BBC news report I heard about the foreign nationals went something like this: A group from England was in the Superdome and apparently they had their own National Guard security dispatch. When things got out of hand at the Superdome, this group was evacuated to a nearby hotel (maybe the Hilton). Kind of odd, huh? Of course the BBC interviewed members of this group (I think they were exchange students) for their story. There were no comments about having their own security team unlike the thousands of US citizens with them in the Superdome. From their perspective, that's how it should have been. Maybe it is, but it sure raised my eyebrow.

[RGA]

Cam.

Canada no doubt will be the ones some will look to since we're the neighbor and biggest trading partner, But Canada's population is less than that of California -- and we're certainly less prepared for something like that. Though Some Canadian special corps are frustrated with Bush because we have specialists especially in dive teams that could have been sent right away but politics gets in the way I suspect here as it does anywhere.

Still As of right now: http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2005-09-02T234207Z_01_EIC258259_RTRIDST_0_CANADA-WEATHER-USA-CANADA-COL.XML

Duds I understand your frustration but the fact is most countries simply have no military to speak of and no real expertise to offer. Canada for instance doesn't really get hurricanes (none that I can remember). Plus as I said we're about 1/10th of your population spread over a larger land mass. And Canada is owed over 5 billion from being completley ripped off by the US in Softwood Lumber (so have your citizens) so many people here have lost jobs thanks to George Bush -- so whatever donation that could have been made can;t be while he was busy propping up bad logging businesses in the US making you pay more to build your houses and robbing us of jobs.

I think some other countries were a little surprised perhaps at how slow Bush was in reacting (once again on Vacation for heaven sake does this putz ever work) and then Bush likely figured well they''re just blacks so who cares? -- Sorry I don't like your president and perhaps others figure that if he's such a know it all he can fix it. The Republicans run a long line of black haters. When Regan awarded Martin Luther King Day a reporter asked him if he thought King was a communist -- Regan threw down the pencil and said well I guess we'll have to wait 30 years to find out. GIve the black man a holliday to appease them but don't really mean it.

The religious luney bin factory of Republicans is a disaster area. If this was a WHITE upper class region hit by a hurricane there would be paratroopers dropped with boats and food by the tens of thousands of troops. It's taken your putz of a president until today to finally do something useful.

I feel so bad for the people of New Orleans and surrounding areas to have such a sleazy inhumane unintelliegent illiterate boob running their lives and putting money into terrorism campains but no longer properly funding the disaster agency(I forget the name down there of the agency).

Sorry for my rant but it is such a pathetic response to this disaster - whatthe hell would happen if you had to deal with a nuclear or biological attack -- with all the so-called preparedness and money spent on homeland safety --- one wonders how much of the cash went the agency and how much went to make some fat cats obese.

[dean_martin]

-- with all the so-called preparedness and money spent on homeland safety ---

I don't mean to split hairs, RGA, but it's "homeland security" not "safety". Apparently there is a difference.

[shokhead]

What about the gov's of the states. I heard the lady gov say she didnt know it was a 5 until it was to late. Guess she doesnt have twc. I think everybody dropped the ball on this one and even if J Jackson thinks its only because it has to do with mostly black victims,i call BS on that. At a costly price tag of life,maybe we will learn something. Shep Smith which was there say Gov Ray had these foreign tourist that were already in the Hilton which they needed to get out because he was there and needed the rooms had them escourted out and right into a bus that was leaving,infront of all the others that had been waiting for 5 days. Hope it happened different.

[bjornb17]

Cam.

Canada no doubt will be the ones some will look to since we're the neighbor and biggest trading partner, But Canada's population is less than that of California -- and we're certainly less prepared for something like that. Though Some Canadian special corps are frustrated with Bush because we have specialists especially in dive teams that could have been sent right away but politics gets in the way I suspect here as it does anywhere.

Still As of right now: http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2005-09-02T234207Z_01_EIC258259_RTRIDST_0_CANADA-WEATHER-USA-CANADA-COL.XML

Duds I understand your frustration but the fact is most countries simply have no military to speak of and no real expertise to offer. Canada for instance doesn't really get hurricanes (none that I can remember). Plus as I said we're about 1/10th of your population spread over a larger land mass. And Canada is owed over 5 billion from being completley ripped off by the US in Softwood Lumber (so have your citizens) so many people here have lost jobs thanks to George Bush -- so whatever donation that could have been made can;t be while he was busy propping up bad logging businesses in the US making you pay more to build your houses and robbing us of jobs.

I think some other countries were a little surprised perhaps at how slow Bush was in reacting (once again on Vacation for heaven sake does this putz ever work) and then Bush likely figured well they''re just blacks so who cares? -- Sorry I don't like your president and perhaps others figure that if he's such a know it all he can fix it. The Republicans run a long line of black haters. When Regan awarded Martin Luther King Day a reporter asked him if he thought King was a communist -- Regan threw down the pencil and said well I guess we'll have to wait 30 years to find out. GIve the black man a holliday to appease them but don't really mean it.

The religious luney bin factory of Republicans is a disaster area. If this was a WHITE upper class region hit by a hurricane there would be paratroopers dropped with boats and food by the tens of thousands of troops. It's taken your putz of a president until today to finally do something useful.

I feel so bad for the people of New Orleans and surrounding areas to have such a sleazy inhumane unintelliegent illiterate boob running their lives and putting money into terrorism campains but no longer properly funding the disaster agency(I forget the name down there of the agency).

Sorry for my rant but it is such a pathetic response to this disaster - whatthe hell would happen if you had to deal with a nuclear or biological attack -- with all the so-called preparedness and money spent on homeland safety --- one wonders how much of the cash went the agency and how much went to make some fat cats obese.


There you go again stereotyping republicans
:rolleyes:

[RGA]

There you go again stereotyping republicans
:rolleyes:

Stereotype? Not in this case -- just a fact. Though there are different Republicans -- not all are racist slime balls or religious nuts, or greedy self serving selfish rich folk. Not at all some are just brainwashed, or stupid, or insane. If you take all Republicans find out how many of them actively are enrolled in Christianity. Then take out big business folks. How many poor people who are not religious vote republican? The sad thing is the one GOOD reason to vote Republican is the perceptin that they will handle money better...and even Republicans who vote on that platform could not possibly think that Republicans right now are doing a good job. Those who do are in the brainwashed or stupid camp.

Sorry but you voted for a bumbling moron and it reflects badly on everyone who voted for a man that can't get a sentence out better than most grade 5 students doing a class presentation. There's voting for your home colour and then there is voting for Forrest Gump (the mean version) for president. I had to laugh in the debates with Kerry when Kerry eloquently answered a question on abortion that Bush replied along the lines of it not making any sense to him and that Kerry wasn't clear. Well he was to anyone who can actually understand the English language -- which as the voting turned out is not very many it seems. Kerry was a dullard and Gore was a robot -- but at least they can speak properly.

Still no mention of those weapons of mass destruction -- innocent until proven guilty -- your country is so hypoocritical with your own laws -- and Republicans don't even acknowledge it. Imposing so called Freedom on supposedly Third World countries without asking anyone if they want America's brand of Freedom (which isn't by the way). Spreading the souless money grubbing American Dream to family first instead of self first cultures and spreading Religious idiocy such as Christianity is hardly free. You're free if you think Christian. If you're black, gay, hispanic then you're a sub human. And if you say anything against the Republicans or Bush then you're viewed as a communist.

[markw]

The blame starts before the storm with the elected local officials. For those that were forced to stay because they had no choice, the mayor should have used those now famous school buses on Saturday and Sunday and even Monday before the levees broke. I'm sure there were quite a few civilians that could have managed to drive them in an emergency. If not, the mayor should have been on the governer's ass to get people down there for help. Other citieds did their homework. Baton Rouge stored seeral mllipn gallons of potable water The schlep in NO just didn't and his constituiency paid with their lives. Heck, he leyt several hundred school bussed stay in a low area where they still sit in waist deep water.

But, you can't force people to leave. those that chose to gamble that it would not be as bad as predicted (the weatherman is always making mountains out of molehills) and, in this case, they lost. Either that, or they figured it would beeasy pickens off those that weren't ther to defend their property. Sometimes, ya gotta take your lumps for your choice.

Besides, I didn't see too many people leaving town on Monday after the storm let up either, did you? Didn't they know the only thing between them and millions of gallons of water was a few precarious levees? Even after all the newscasts predicting that they would likely collapse, doncha think someone would getthe hint?

I did, however, see many shots of looting and I'm not talking about food and medicine. I also heard reports of rescue helicoptors and ground parties being fired on.

Bush ain't perfect and I have my issues with him, but to lay this on the federal government shows piss poor thinking on your part. Maybe you could get Audio Note to donate a few speakers so they could float to safety on 'em.

...and, if you try to lay that "it's because they're black" **** on here, you're simply a liar. Stupid people come in all colors. Even some canadians are stupid as you prove here.

Bush is an idiot but he isn't racist. you do seem tho harbor quite vehement opinions against Republicans and/or christians, Talk about painting with a wide brush...

Bush isn't responsible for poor planning and preperation by their black, democratic elected local officials. But, it seem sthat making up for al their fluckups DOES fall into his lap, doesn't it?

Plus, this ain't even your flucking country. You have no say or interest in it. How about you taking in some of the unworking poor into Canada? How about some of the gun toting looters as well? Then, perhaps, your opinion might be worth something.

[bjornb17]

You're free if you think Christian. If you're black, gay, hispanic then you're a sub human. And if you say anything against the Republicans or Bush then you're viewed as a communist.

You're the only one saying these things on these forums... shows what you probably think of those groups of people. According to your theory, I would think of my girlfriend as sub-human, since she is Hispanic. That's far from the case. I live along the Mexico-US border where about 75% of the population is hispanic, with most of them being democrats, and my best friends are among that group of people.

You're living in the stone age with your views on Republicans. Sure, we have our differences with Democrats, but most of us are able to get along fine with one another. We just have a difference of views, and that seems to be something that you don't respect.

[GMichael]

Stereotype? Not in this case -- just a fact. Though there are different Republicans -- not all are racist slime balls or religious nuts, or greedy self serving selfish rich folk. Not at all some are just brainwashed, or stupid, or insane. If you take all Republicans find out how many of them actively are enrolled in Christianity. Then take out big business folks. How many poor people who are not religious vote republican? The sad thing is the one GOOD reason to vote Republican is the perceptin that they will handle money better...and even Republicans who vote on that platform could not possibly think that Republicans right now are doing a good job. Those who do are in the brainwashed or stupid camp.

Sorry but you voted for a bumbling moron and it reflects badly on everyone who voted for a man that can't get a sentence out better than most grade 5 students doing a class presentation. There's voting for your home colour and then there is voting for Forrest Gump (the mean version) for president. I had to laugh in the debates with Kerry when Kerry eloquently answered a question on abortion that Bush replied along the lines of it not making any sense to him and that Kerry wasn't clear. Well he was to anyone who can actually understand the English language -- which as the voting turned out is not very many it seems. Kerry was a dullard and Gore was a robot -- but at least they can speak properly.

Still no mention of those weapons of mass destruction -- innocent until proven guilty -- your country is so hypoocritical with your own laws -- and Republicans don't even acknowledge it. Imposing so called Freedom on supposedly Third World countries without asking anyone if they want America's brand of Freedom (which isn't by the way). Spreading the souless money grubbing American Dream to family first instead of self first cultures and spreading Religious idiocy such as Christianity is hardly free. You're free if you think Christian. If you're black, gay, hispanic then you're a sub human. And if you say anything against the Republicans or Bush then you're viewed as a communist.

Can I be one of the insane ones? I didn't like any of the other choices.

You are very right about Kerry though. He does speak very eloquently. Most used car salesmen do also. But I wouldn't trust any of them enough to turn my back for a second. Let alone run our country.

I married a lady from the Phillipines. Spain ran their country for a while, and a lot of people mistake her for hispanic. I couldn't love or respect her more.

I don't think you are a communist. I just dissagree with you.

You are welcome to your opinion RGA. And guess what, I respect you too. But it does seem like you are being a little overcritical.

[RGA]

Sorry if I offended some republicans -- but wake up. Whether I'm from the States or not is irrelevant -- youcan lay blame on the governer but the fact is the Governor is basically a middle manager -- Bush IS responsible for the entire country and once again he's on vacation and slow to respond.

The TV broadcasts show two black people stealing water and food and the news report says "people Looting shops". Later they show two white people Stealing food and water and the report is "Couple finds food for survival"

If you can't tell the difference between these kinds of reports then I can't help you. George Bush is best friends with Bin laden -- they;ve made great money together. I'm sorry to call people insane or stupid but you're basically saying that the US government can't find one person...Please! The truth is they don't want to find him - fear makes too much money for the U.S. Big Business -- like the totally meaningless totally corrupt totally inept colour coded homeland security level garbage.

[markw]

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/09/02/161512.php

And, as for your comments on the media? Well, you make it seem as if you're the first to be aware of this and the rest of us are too ignorant to see this . Check out Sir T's post on just that in this forum as well. You're a day or so late and a dollar and some change short

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13409

To try to bring up that wide brush in in your defense here and now is a bit disingenious of you.

[RGA]

Mark why not start right here "People think the levees should have been upgraded but funding was cut." Which the writer of the article didn't bother to address. Blaming the bad plan etc is great but Bush spends more starting wars with countries that don't have weapons of mass destruction because it helps his friends at Haliburotn. No Race IS an issue (and I'm white incidentally) but there are way too many instances of Racism or at least Paranois with your Republican presidents. Reagan signing the Martin Luther King Holiday for him was only done to appease black America -- he didn't really want to do it nor mean it. A Black man wanting a better life for a minority group that the constitution demands -- and thus he's a comunist. Equal rights equals communism??

[shokhead]

Oh Please.

[bjornb17]

Oh Please.

I guess there is a reason that RGA has been elected as the most annoying member on these forums :)

[Woochifer]

RGA, this tirade you're on is just off kilter I can't even begin to start. You're so bent on painting broad stereotypical brushes with labels like "Republican" and "Christian" and "American" that you don't even see the diversity underneath all of those labels that renders your arguments moot. I can't be more opposite from my Republican Bush-voting parents politically, but they are not white and not Christian and not wealthy and do not support the Iraq war. Just because they vote Republican, am I supposed to stand in judgment and view them as "soulless" money grubbers just because of what their voter registration card says? They are more in the Rockefeller Republican mold politically. If you don't know what that means, then you frankly lack the historical context needed to pass any judgment about an entire political party that has more wings and factions than a barside appetizer plate.

So you hate the "American dream" so you hate Republicans so you hate Christians. Geez, why don't you just wish that the hurricane had done more destruction and killed more people, blown through more "red states" killed a few more Christians or a few more Republicans? You don't seem at all concerned about the victims and seem to be just jumping with glee that the public officials and government agencies ****ed up the rescue efforts. After all, it fits with your narrow-minded self-righteous soapbox view of what the U.S. stands for, and it gives you an opportunity to thumb your nose at a country that you clearly hate.

P.S. If you actually took the time to listen to some of MLK's 1968 speeches, you'd see that his views were becoming more radicalized, more openly Socialist in their views towards wealth distribution and class distinction, and focused on the Vietnam war. If you take the time to pick through every detail of his life and everything that he said, then it's all too easy to find things that can easily be construed as Communist or sympathizing with that perspective. It does not diminish the great things that he did accomplish, but any life under a microscope can be labeled however you want. If MLK's regarded as a Communist by some, that frankly does not matter because his life's meaning goes beyond such simplistic labeling.

Speaking of historical perspective. Does the term Dixiecrat mean anything to you? Before you go painting Republicans with a broad brush for their civil rights record, keep in mind that many of the most famous segregationists in U.S. history were Democrats, back when the "solid South" was a Democratic voting bloc. Several of the most prominent early black leaders such as Frederick Douglass, W.E.B. Du Bois, and Jackie Robinson were Republicans because it was the Republican party that abolished slavery. It wasn't until the New Deal and the Great Society and the anti-war movement that the civil rights movement started to go more towards the Democratic party.

[bjornb17]

RGA, this tirade you're on is just off kilter I can't even begin to start. You're so bent on painting broad stereotypical brushes with labels like "Republican" and "Christian" and "American" that you don't even see the diversity underneath all of those labels that renders your arguments moot. I can't be more opposite from my Republican Bush-voting parents politically, but they are not white and not Christian and not wealthy and do not support the Iraq war. Just because they vote Republican, am I supposed to stand in judgment and view them as "soulless" money grubbers just because of what their voter registration card says? They are more in the Rockefeller Republican mold politically. If you don't know what that means, then you frankly lack the historical context needed to pass any judgment about an entire political party that has more wings and factions than a barside appetizer plate.

So you hate the "American dream" so you hate Republicans so you hate Christians. Geez, why don't you just wish that the hurricane had done more destruction and killed more people, blown through more "red states" killed a few more Christians or a few more Republicans? You don't seem at all concerned about the victims and seem to be just jumping with glee that the public officials and government agencies ****ed up the rescue efforts. After all, it fits with your narrow-minded self-righteous soapbox view of what the U.S. stands for, and it gives you an opportunity to thumb your nose at a country that you clearly hate.

P.S. If you actually took the time to listen to some of MLK's 1968 speeches, you'd see that his views were becoming more radicalized, more openly Socialist in their views towards wealth distribution and class distinction, and focused on the Vietnam war. If you take the time to pick through every detail of his life and everything that he said, then it's all too easy to find things that can easily be construed as Communist or sympathizing with that perspective. It does not diminish the great things that he did accomplish, but any life under a microscope can be labeled however you want. If MLK's regarded as a Communist by some, that frankly does not matter because his life's meaning goes beyond such simplistic labeling.

Speaking of historical perspective. Does the term Dixiecrat mean anything to you? Before you go painting Republicans with a broad brush for their civil rights record, keep in mind that many of the most famous segregationists in U.S. history were Democrats, back when the "solid South" was a Democratic voting bloc. Several of the most prominent early black leaders such as Frederick Douglass, W.E.B. Du Bois, and Jackie Robinson were Republicans because it was the Republican party that abolished slavery. It wasn't until the New Deal and the Great Society and the anti-war movement that the civil rights movement started to go more towards the Democratic party.

Amen! Wait, can i say that without RGA stereotyping and insulting me?

[RGA]

You can;t get away from the MAN republicans elected -- you chose a moron to represent you -- think about that!

Woochifer -- "why don't you just wish that the hurricane had done more destruction and killed more people, blown through more "red states" killed a few more Christians or a few more Republicans?"

I find that to be a repulsive comment -- you made it not I. Do not mistake my anger at the government and its propaganda as hating America. Anti-Americanism that is wide spread around the world should not be confused with Anti-American Citizen. Socialism isn't communism but that is another issue. the New Deal(stolen from Canada - though you probably won't get that in your US history courses) was essentially a socialist fix to aid getting you out of the depression. You spent your way out. This is the great misconception. When times are bad that IS when you spend -- you spend on infrastructure education etc and get people working -- people working they make money they spend economy works, It is when times are GOOD that belts should be tightened. Again all of this is off topic.

The American Dream -- well it's the carrot at the end of the stick -- only you realise the carrot wasn;t all it was cracked up to be and rotten at the core. That also is an off topic separate argument.

"am I supposed to stand in judgment and view them as "soulless" money grubbers just because of what their voter registration card says?"

Well they're family so I guess you can't. But Rockefeller's brand of Republicanism is long long gone -- His views on civil rights were progressive which made him an outcast amongst Republicans. I would make the case that with the move to the right of the democrats that a Rockefeller republican should be voting for Democrats -- not that I have an automatic support of Democrats as your Democrats are probably still farther right wing than our right wing parties (and our Right Wing parties -- The Canadian Alliance has enough trouble being anti-homosexual and pro let's bomb the world -- in other words Bush wannabes.

And I am sorry for my statement on Christians as this does not directly have anything to do with voting -- many Christians vote Democrat. But it is extremely frustrating to see a major city like this so badly handled...and many of my comments are heat of the moment piss me off comments. The state dropped the ball ok but this is a race and a class issue. The Mayor of New Orleans as I'm typing this is saying that he can;t understand how bad the response is (and he put out the warning WELL BEFORE Katrina was at level 1. He just said if this was Manhatten this response would not have been this bad. And I agree -- he's saying the poolice were more concerned with protecting property in the malls rather than people. And the gov't cut off the exit route -- so who cares about the freaking busses -- they'd been turned back for fear someone stole a TV. As usual property and profit over people - especially meaningless black people.

Lastly Mr. Moore of course can;t go long without getting a word in:

Friday, September 2nd, 2005
Vacation is Over... an open letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.

[markw]

Mark why not start right here "People think the levees should have been upgraded but funding was cut." Which the writer of the article didn't bother to address. Blaming the bad plan etc is great but Bush spends more starting wars with countries that don't have weapons of mass destruction because it helps his friends at Haliburotn. No Race IS an issue (and I'm white incidentally) but there are way too many instances of Racism or at least Paranois with your Republican presidents. Reagan signing the Martin Luther King Holiday for him was only done to appease black America -- he didn't really want to do it nor mean it. A Black man wanting a better life for a minority group that the constitution demands -- and thus he's a comunist. Equal rights equals communism??I see you didn't bother with my link. Oh well, I guess I expected too much.

From what I read, funding or no, any significant improvements would have taken tewnty five years.

As far as "bad planning" goes, their wunnerful mayor and govenerer were totally clueless about ehat to do, The local authorities were SUPPOSSED to lay out emergencty plans for

a) them and their constituents to follow before and after the disaster struckand

b) for the federal agancies to follow after the fact. The fact that plab "B" did not exist forced the feds to do both steps. That's a timewster.

So, as far as your anti-bush triade goes, George Bush didn't tell them to build their city 8 feet below sea level.

George Bush didn't elect a comcast executive with no civil management experience running a city as mayor of NO.

George Bush didn't tell most of the NOLA police force to throw down their badges and run for the hills.

George Bush didn't elect that clueless govenor, either.

You may be white, but you sure eem to be ashamed of it. I'm white too (but my wife is "of color), I gotta say, you you do make me a little ashamed we share the same race. I rarelty run across one of ANY race as full of disdain for others as you.

As far as race goes, you haven't a clue, period. In case you haven't notice the "black man" has more opportunites today than they did in bad ol' days. There are more black professionals than you can shake a stick at. ...and more every day. The ambitious ones took full advantage of all the opportunities offered themselves and even took it upon themselves to help their own. Generation by generation, they are becoming more educated than you would believe.

Most Americans, at leastthe smart ones, look into themselves for their problems and for improvements and very, very few can legitimatly lay claim to their race holding them down. Many may try, but that's usually just an excuse. There's always some who want to blame "the man" for their own personal shortcomings.

Parents have to raise their children right. You can't expect the schools and the state to do that. That's their responsibility. They have to make thenm go to school and learn. without that, they are lost. but so are white kids that don't pursue their education but the media doesn't seem to play this up too much, does it? If the parents can't step up to the plate, they try to put the blame on others and what happens is we now have another generation of people foisting the blame on others. Those are the ones you read about.

See the media thread for more on this. The fact that you so blindly believe this scares me.

As far as blue collar jobs, we ll everyone, both black and white, have been hit hard with outsourcing. If you ever watch the news about plant closings and such you'll see more white faces than black out there ones simply because of the demographics of that area.

Heck, we hardly ever see the KKK anymore. Most of them up and moved to Canada.

[shokhead]

I wonder whats the % of blacks in BC? When this crap happened,i never saw any color,just a much of people in a world of sh$t but then when all the chiefs dropped the ball taking to long is when all the black/white crap started. I didnt vote for bush either time but i just dont see anything of a black issue with the problems. Lack of readyness,yes. Pres of the USA saying,dont worry about it,its just mostly blacks,i'm thinking not.

[Woochifer]

You can;t get away from the MAN republicans elected -- you chose a moron to represent you -- think about that!

And more voters voted for Gore in 2000, and Bush won by less than 2% in 2004. So, that suddenly becomes a blanket indictment on all Americans? Uh huh...


Woochifer -- "why don't you just wish that the hurricane had done more destruction and killed more people, blown through more "red states" killed a few more Christians or a few more Republicans?"

I find that to be a repulsive comment -- you made it not I. Do not mistake my anger at the government and its propaganda as hating America. Anti-Americanism that is wide spread around the world should not be confused with Anti-American Citizen. Socialism isn't communism but that is another issue. the New Deal(stolen from Canada - though you probably won't get that in your US history courses) was essentially a socialist fix to aid getting you out of the depression. You spent your way out. This is the great misconception. When times are bad that IS when you spend -- you spend on infrastructure education etc and get people working -- people working they make money they spend economy works, It is when times are GOOD that belts should be tightened. Again all of this is off topic.

Your hatred is so apparent on the surface so I'm simply taking your comments to their logical extreme. If you find my comments repulsive, just look in the mirror or read what you write and you just might find quite bit of ugliness in your hateful sentiments.

You blame Republicans for so much of the evil in this world and seem to feel that anyone who supports them as a party is either evil or stupid. There's so much more to America than just the national government and more to people than who they vote for, yet you seem to stereotype the country in those terms as if the power structure says everything that there is to say about a country.

Yeah, and like the Canadian version of the social welfare state is an original idea on your government's part (my recollection is that many European countries already had their own social welfare programs in place by the 1920s), and we Americans "stole" it ONLY from Canada.


The American Dream -- well it's the carrot at the end of the stick -- only you realise the carrot wasn;t all it was cracked up to be and rotten at the core. That also is an off topic separate argument.

You don't know squat about what the "American Dream" represents since you regard the U.S. as this nightmare society and abhor what you perceive as the values here in general, if your comments over the years on America serve as a benchmark. The whole terminology means something different to different people. There's plenty not to like about this country, but to millions of us it is home, and for you to call it "rotten to the core" is a disgusting and ignorant statement because that speaks to the people, since the "core" of any society ultimately boils down to people and communities. If providing a comfortable home for a family in a livable and safe community is "rotten to the core" then I guess you and I have different ideas of what the "American dream" represents.


"am I supposed to stand in judgment and view them as "soulless" money grubbers just because of what their voter registration card says?"

Well they're family so I guess you can't. But Rockefeller's brand of Republicanism is long long gone -- His views on civil rights were progressive which made him an outcast amongst Republicans. I would make the case that with the move to the right of the democrats that a Rockefeller republican should be voting for Democrats -- not that I have an automatic support of Democrats as your Democrats are probably still farther right wing than our right wing parties (and our Right Wing parties -- The Canadian Alliance has enough trouble being anti-homosexual and pro let's bomb the world -- in other words Bush wannabes.

That's utter bull****. And "Well they're family so I guess you can't" is just another cheapshot on your part, spouting off on stuff that you don't know squat about from your self-righteous perch. The Rockefeller wing of the Republican party is not "long long gone" as you say. They don't dominate the national party committees, but are are you telling me that Republican Senators like Olympia Snowe, Lincoln Chafee, Chuck Hagel, or John McCain tow the agenda alongside the social conservatives and neocons?

And when you refer to "your Democrats" you again ignore how many different perspectives are accommodated within that party. Everything from the remants of the southern Dixiecrats (who are segregationist social conservatives that are only part of the Democratic party because of the New Deal legacy) to former Black Panthers who now serve in Congress and environmental activists and suburban soccer moms and pro-business interests. You seem to forget that a system where only two parties dominate is not like Canada where the greater volume of political parties and the need to form coalitions means that people's voter registration says more about what their political values are.


And I am sorry for my statement on Christians as this does not directly have anything to do with voting -- many Christians vote Democrat. But it is extremely frustrating to see a major city like this so badly handled...and many of my comments are heat of the moment piss me off comments. The state dropped the ball ok but this is a race and a class issue. The Mayor of New Orleans as I'm typing this is saying that he can;t understand how bad the response is (and he put out the warning WELL BEFORE Katrina was at level 1. He just said if this was Manhatten this response would not have been this bad. And I agree -- he's saying the poolice were more concerned with protecting property in the malls rather than people. And the gov't cut off the exit route -- so who cares about the freaking busses -- they'd been turned back for fear someone stole a TV. As usual property and profit over people - especially meaningless black people.

I'm pissed and I'm frustrated at the hurricane and the aftermath as well, which is why I find your sentiments and your cheap shots on this thread so offensive. Your "blame America" stereotyping is ridiculous and narrow-minded to begin with, but when it's done in the context of a great human tragedy like what's unfolded in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, that's where I draw the line. Frankly, I don't care who's at fault -- people are starving and dying and missing, and the social fabric of a great American city (the incubator of jazz and one of the great cultural centers) is completely coming undone. Get help to where it needs to go, I don't care who takes credit for it later on.

If you want to use this tragedy as your personal soapbox for more anti-Bush anti-Capitalism and anti-Republican rants, knock yourself out, but do it somewhere else. I'm at my wits end with people (on both sides of the partisan divide) playing the blame game while thousands of fellow Americans wait for some help and some hope. At a time like this, the focus should be on what can be done and what still needs to be done ... not on who didn't do this and didn't do that, and whether the system's to blame or whether Republicans are stupid or whether Bush is at fault or whether local officials are to blame or whether we "stole" the New Deal from Canada, etc. Plenty of time for recriminations and finger pointing (and there will be plenty of that considering how much of the recovery got ****ed up) after the dust settles, but not when there are still people in need in the affected areas.

[kexodusc]

Guys, don't worry too much about RGA...he gets his American history and culture lessons from Canadian government owned satire TV programs, Micheal Moore, and 2nd-rate Canadian socialist propaganda. It's en vogue to poke fun at American politics for some reason these days...guess it gets the average Canadian's mind off the unprincipled sell-out corruption that embodies Canadian politics. It's obvious he doesn't know how similar the two countries are, or how it wasn't long ago that Canadians were the more conservative to America's liberalism.

I personally find it ironic that he criticizes American politics and democracy while he lives in a country that's notorious for electing parties with less than 50% of the popular vote..

Can't believe he brought up the softwood lumber protectionist response to illegal hidden Canadian subsidies either...shame on him.

I've got bad news for him, all signs point to a more "American" like Canada in the future too. Wonder if he speaks Swedish?

RGA's opinions and views are not the official views of the Canadian people. Please don't take them as such.

[cam]

Guys, don't worry too much about RGA...he gets his American history and culture lessons from Canadian government owned satire TV programs, Micheal Moore, and 2nd-rate Canadian socialist propaganda. It's en vogue to poke fun at American politics for some reason these days...guess it gets the average Canadian's mind off the unprincipled sell-out corruption that embodies Canadian politics. It's obvious he doesn't know how similar the two countries are, or how it wasn't long ago that Canadians were the more conservative to America's liberalism.

I personally find it ironic that he criticizes American politics and democracy while he lives in a country that's notorious for electing parties with less than 50% of the popular vote..

Can't believe he brought up the softwood lumber protectionist response to illegal hidden Canadian subsidies either...shame on him.

I've got bad news for him, all signs point to a more "American" like Canada in the future too. Wonder if he speaks Swedish?

RGA's opinions and views are not the official views of the Canadian people. Please don't take them as such.
What illegal hidden Canadian subsidies? Don't forget NAFTA already voted in our favour but did we get our 5 billion back. Nope. The only word that comes to mind is BULLY!

And these signs, which I would like to know, pointing to a more "American" like Canada, Pleeeeaaasse. When we didn't jump with the Americans to go to war with Iraq, I think that shows enough that we are going in the opposite direction as the USA.

[shokhead]

Dont worry,we keep enough troops to protect you.

[cam]

Dont worry,we keep enough troops to protect you.
Gee, I didn't know we had any Iraq's at my doorstep where we will need your troops to protect me.

[kexodusc]

What illegal hidden Canadian subsidies? Don't forget NAFTA already voted in our favour but did we get our 5 billion back. Nope. The only word that comes to mind is BULLY!



Well, if I had stumpage fees at X dollars to forest on government land before NAFTA, and then I lowered stumpage fees substantially only for Canadian owned companies, but kept it high for foreign companies after stumpage fees were "conveniently" omitted from the terms of NAFTA, I might view that as a subsidy through the backdoor as well. Sooner or later the Canadian government has to learn to quit throwing tax dollars at uncompetitive industries and let them live or die by their own merit. 20 year band-aid solutions don't do anyone any favors but those few fortunate enough to be direct recipients of them.. Bombardier, Air Canada, and now softwood lumber.

Just because the legal authority the NAFTA panels (or don't have) prevents them from extrapolating the terms of the agreement to account for previously unidentified ways of subsidizing, doesn't mean it's morally right.


And these signs, which I would like to know, pointing to a more "American" like Canada, Pleeeeaaasse. When we didn't jump with the Americans to go to war with Iraq, I think that shows enough that we are going in the opposite direction as the USA

Hmm, if that's the sole measurement I agree...however, recent supreme court rulings paving the road for efficient, pay-as-needed health care might be another measurement.
Quebec and Alberta's obvious pushes for revisting the terms of confederation, in favor of a more decentralized government structure could be another.

Most Americans were opposed to the war...much like Canada.

[cam]

The US is putting tarrifs on our softwood lumber but not our raw logs, hmmm. They are basically trying to squeeze out our manufacturing of our own raw logs. These stumpage rates don't mean dick when we ship raw logs, but on a 2x4, again hmmmm. If a NFL referee calls a illegal procedure penalty, then it is a penalty, if NAFTA rules, give the 5 Billion back, well you know what the answer is, but I guess we will have to negotiate to get some of our money back. Maybe a NFL coach can negotiate a 5 yard penalty instead of a 10.

[dean_martin]

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/09/02/161512.php

And, as for your comments on the media? Well, you make it seem as if you're the first to be aware of this and the rest of us are too ignorant to see this . Check out Sir T's post on just that in this forum as well. You're a day or so late and a dollar and some change short

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13409

To try to bring up that wide brush in in your defense here and now is a bit disingenious of you.

Your conservative blog is just the opposite of the current liberal blogs, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I know first hand what the responsibilities are of the local and federal govt's in these types of natural disasters and to lay all the blame at the doorstep of local and state govt's is BS. Read FEMA director Michael Brown's March '05 testimony to Congress then read his speech to participants at a Hurricane Conference in '04. Study the speech carefully as he describes every little detail about FEMA's preparedness for Hurricane Isabel and then ask yourself where that preparedness was for Katrina, if you care.

http://www.fema.gov/library/speech_brown04082004.shtm

http://www.fema.gov/library/speech_brown030905.shtm

How in the world can your precious blog credit Bush for declaring a state of emergency in LA (from the federal level), then not expect some preparedness on the federal level from FEMA? Is your pro-Bush blog saying that Bush warned you and now that you (local & State gov't) didn't do anything about it, it's your own fault? Have you really read and thought through this blog of sh*t you're reading? At first I agreed with everyone's assessment that this was not a race thing. From my own Hurricane experienceS (more than one) it was an issue of unpreparedness mostly on the Federal level because our tax dollars go to Homeland Security which is over FEMA for just this type of natural disaster. I thought the race card was being hinted at (not played in everyone's face) by the media. After reading the conservative blogosphere I'm not so sure it's just media hype. I'm telling you all now that if we can't reach some common ground on a disaster that killed thousands and on the needs of those who are barley hanging on, then this country is going to go down the toilet, if it hasn't already.

To go from Monday to Thursday when any real federal relief came in is disgraceful. To criticize a local police force, which was probably already undermanned, for giving up on this daunting task when 1) they've been at it 24-7 with no relief and 2) their own homes and families have been destroyed is foolish.

Oh and a big BTFW to YOU, George Bush DID appoint a woefully unqualified individual as head of FEMA. His last job in the private sector (1991 -2001) was commissioner of an Arabian Horse association from which he was asked to resign. The association no longer exists because when he left it was in financial ruin. The liberals can blog too.

[Woochifer]

Your conservative blog is just the opposite of the current liberal blogs, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I know first hand what the responsibilities are of the local and federal govt's in these types of natural disasters and to lay all the blame at the doorstep of local and state govt's is BS. Read FEMA director Michael Brown's March '05 testimony to Congress then read his speech to participants at a Hurricane Conference in '04. Study the speech carefully as he describes every little detail about FEMA's preparedness for Hurricane Isabel and then ask yourself where that preparedness was for Katrina, if you care.

Amen to that. Right now, I'm at a point where I'm relieved that help is finally getting through to the affected areas, but I'm pissed off at everybody who had anything to do with leading the recovery effort. We can sort out who did what at an appropriate time, I'm just sick to death of the finger pointing and excuses, which had already begun when there were still thousands of people alive and still in danger. Bush's pathetic speeches and almost jocular posturing in the days that followed certainly did not reassure me that the emergency was given the appropriate urgency at the federal level. And FEMA Director Michael Brown's lack of awareness of the catastrophe in the making at the Convention Center was inexcusable when all of the major news networks already had camera crews on site for at least two days before any help arrived.

Whether or not **** ups of comparable magnitude occurred at the state and local level, we'll have to sort that out later on, but I agree with you on the criticism the police are getting -- they were undermanned and initially given a mandate of search and rescue when the shootings and looting started spinning out of control. Stories are only now getting out about the hellish anarchic conditions that the officers were trying to contain in the early hours after the flooding started. A lot of them got sent into virtual war zones knowing that their their own homes were already destroyed and family members still missing. For all the praise that the NYPD got in their response to 9/11, the NOPD was in a far more hopeless situation because the catastrophe they dealt with was citywide with no communications, no infrastructure, no outside assistance whatsoever, no vehicular access, and too little manpower.

[RGA]

The US is putting tarrifs on our softwood lumber but not our raw logs, hmmm. They are basically trying to squeeze out our manufacturing of our own raw logs. These stumpage rates don't mean dick when we ship raw logs, but on a 2x4, again hmmmm. If a NFL referee calls a illegal procedure penalty, then it is a penalty, if NAFTA rules, give the 5 Billion back, well you know what the answer is, but I guess we will have to negotiate to get some of our money back. Maybe a NFL coach can negotiate a 5 yard penalty instead of a 10.

Cam
The thing is the Canadian logger gets screwed -- but what Kex fails to note is that the American citizen gets screwed. Who makes out is incompetent American logging businesses (who I'm sure Bush and crew have big invstments in). Average Joe American gets ripped off. But Cam I'm still waiting for the Billions they owe us for keeping California's lights turned on a few years ago -- they paid us nothing by the way. Canada is a friend so be thankful we're not a country that has any kind of spine -- we'd be terrorists with mass destruction weapons.

I don't want to seem uncaring for the people in the south -- it is my frustration and sadness for what they're going through that had me ranting. If I didn't care I would not have said anything.

As for political systems well there is a serious problem with the 2 party system where so many diverse views get slotted into Republican and so many wildly different left views get slotted into democrat. What happens is both move largely to the center to get the most votes - that is unless one has a majority government then it cand do pretty much anything for 4 years.

Canada is not much different in this regard -- the Liberal government is a say anything to anyone group and they are the safe center vote. Which is why they're seemingly always in power. The country like the US is made up of diverse regions -- one reason I don't lump US citizens all together is because they are in many ways separate mini-countries that have banded together much as Canada's provinces are united. In Canada that means some hugely different views from a Province like Quebec and British Columbia.

Canada is heavily influenced and pressured by the United States no question of that -- if we were not then you would see a country that would be wildly different than it is now in my view. First -- gay marriage would be legal period. Second Marijuana would be de-ciminalized if not on par with alcohol as a taxable drug. Talk about paying for medical care!! As starters.

I'm not going to comment more on the situation in the South because I think I should have thought about what I said before I posted and indeed not posted in the first place. The issue of blame can indeed and should indeed be debated at another time. And Complaining about Bush is irrelevant anyway -- he's not leaving until his term ends and he can pretty much do whatever he wants.

[shokhead]

Amen to that. Right now, I'm at a point where I'm relieved that help is finally getting through to the affected areas, but I'm pissed off at everybody who had anything to do with leading the recovery effort. We can sort out who did what at an appropriate time, I'm just sick to death of the finger pointing and excuses, which had already begun when there were still thousands of people alive and still in danger. Bush's pathetic speeches and almost jocular posturing in the days that followed certainly did not reassure me that the emergency was given the appropriate urgency at the federal level. And FEMA Director Michael Brown's lack of awareness of the catastrophe in the making at the Convention Center was inexcusable when all of the major news networks already had camera crews on site for at least two days before any help arrived.

Whether or not **** ups of comparable magnitude occurred at the state and local level, we'll have to sort that out later on, but I agree with you on the criticism the police are getting -- they were undermanned and initially given a mandate of search and rescue when the shootings and looting started spinning out of control. Stories are only now getting out about the hellish anarchic conditions that the officers were trying to contain in the early hours after the flooding started. A lot of them got sent into virtual war zones knowing that their their own homes were already destroyed and family members still missing. For all the praise that the NYPD got in their response to 9/11, the NOPD was in a far more hopeless situation because the catastrophe they dealt with was citywide with no communications, no infrastructure, no outside assistance whatsoever, no vehicular access, and too little manpower.

Your sick of finger pointing yet you seem to have your finger working pretty good.

[kexodusc]

The US is putting tarrifs on our softwood lumber but not our raw logs, hmmm. They are basically trying to squeeze out our manufacturing of our own raw logs. These stumpage rates don't mean dick when we ship raw logs, but on a 2x4, again hmmmm. If a NFL referee calls a illegal procedure penalty, then it is a penalty, if NAFTA rules, give the 5 Billion back, well you know what the answer is, but I guess we will have to negotiate to get some of our money back. Maybe a NFL coach can negotiate a 5 yard penalty instead of a 10.

I see where you're coming from here, but your example isn't the crux of the matter. The raw log costs aren't hurting american industry. Stumpage fees aren't right in that example either, but they don't care. If they were hurting US industry, I'm sure they'd be concerned about it too. I work closely with Timbec, a large Canadian foresting based in eastern Canada. They've long ago set up liability reserves because they fully expect the US to rightfully win this dispute in the end. That's right, Canadian companies betting against this. If the ruling goes the other way bonus, they'll get some money back, but they don't feel they deserve it.
What our biased Canadian media and politicians aren't telling the public about this dispute is that the US has a very good leg to stand on here. Canada really trumped the US in this section of NAFTA. During negotiations, there were months of back-and-forth explanations of how industry operates. This was legally required to be done in good faith. Canada purposely omitted their stumpage tactics, violating that good faith.

Your football example isn't relevant either. Let's use a hockey example. For decades, there wasn't a "too many men" rule in hockey. So, just because these terms weren't clearly printed in the "rulebook" (or NAFTA dispute resolution policies), doesn't mean a coach is free to send 10 guys on the ice. Eventually a rule will be made. Terms will be renegotiated to include what should have been there in the first place.

Ever stop to think why the US so upset over this? In terms of dollars, there are far, far, far, more lucrative industries for them to act as bullies on. The dissolution of the autopact, Canadian manufacturing etc...

The Nafta rulings don't mean squat. NAFTA wasn't given the authority to rule in the USA's favor on this because such a situation was never predicted to be possible because Canada was expected to negotiate the terms in good faith. Those ruling aren't "Canada is right and the US is wrong". It's "the USA has failed to prove under the terms of NAFTA..." even if we as judges do agree with them.

We got greedy, pissed off the giant and they will get their way now, and there's nothing we can do about it.
Negotiate some, or get none. Time to cut loose the umbilical cord and let these inefficent, unproductive industries compete on their own merit instead of wasting tax dollars on politicaly sensitive industries.

[kexodusc]

Cam
The thing is the Canadian logger gets screwed -- but what Kex fails to note is that the American citizen gets screwed. Who makes out is incompetent American logging businesses (who I'm sure Bush and crew have big invstments in). Average Joe American gets ripped off.

Maybe, but let's be honest here, why are my tax dollars subsidizing that industry so Joe American can get a discount on lumber? That's BS. Time to quit putting unproductive industries on 20 year life support and let them die.

[bjornb17]

Cam
Who makes out is incompetent American logging businesses (who I'm sure Bush and crew have big invstments in).

Wow, RGA you've had your head so far up your ass that everything that comes out of your mouth is BS. With everything you disagree with, somehow Bush is tied in with it. That's your philosophy. I bet it's Bush's fault that you make yourself look ridiculous everytime you post something.

[kexodusc]

Canada is heavily influenced and pressured by the United States no question of that -- if we were not then you would see a country that would be wildly different than it is now in my view. First -- gay marriage would be legal period.

Gay marriage is being opposed so strongly by the mostly silent conservatives and immigrants, who are among the most religious Canadian citizens. The conservatives in this country have been mostly forgotten because of the terrible organization and leadership of the national parties. But you don't have to look to hard to see that Canada has a lot of conservative support - How quickly people forget this. Ontario rotates every 8 years historically, Atlantic Canada is all conservative, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta have strong conservative ties.

Conservative/religious opposition is a global trend, not unique to Canada at all, and American opinion has had little influence, if any. I have yet to meet someone who opposes gay marriage because the Americans don't like it...that's rediculous.


Second Marijuana would be de-ciminalized if not on par with alcohol as a taxable drug. Talk about paying for medical care!! As starters.

That will never happen, de-criminalization makes a lot of sense. Taxing marijuana revenues does not. Regulation is opposed by all 4 major parties. Besides, that authority would remain with the Provinces.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

As some of you know I work for ABC television. The local station I work at here in San Francisco did a VERY indepth interview with the former mayor, the current mayor, and the head of FEMA. First the head of FEMA has absolutely no experience with any kind of diaster planning, rescue or relief experience. He was the head of some Arabian horse organization before this job at fema, and was buddy appointed by Bush with the full knowledge that he lacked any experience. He was asked to leave his post as head of the Arabian Horse Association in 2000

Question 1: Why is a person with no experience whatsoever being appointed to an organization with the task of provide support to distressed or displaced disaster victim's?

Question 2: Why do we Americans allow unqualified buddy appointments to exist amoung our government officials?

As the interview continued, the former mayor revealed that they had done a indepth concensus on the population during a relook at New Oleans evactuation plans. What was found was that 50% responded that when asked to evacuate, they would leave immediately. They also revealed they had the money, and transportation to do so. 20% responded that they didn't have the resources, or transportation to leave New Oleans. Another 20% said they wouldn't leave under any circumstances even the they had the resources and transportation.

Here is my first finger pointing because we should NOT wait to deal with issue until it is forgotten, and some people escape without be held accountable(this is going to happen I am afraid) Why didn't the mayor(before the storm) not issue a warning that anyone that stays behind will be arrested? Escpecially in the lowest lying area's. The local officials were to blame for this one.

The mayor indicated that on Monday afternoon when the first levee started to break, he sensed that he was going to have a problem larger than could locally be handled. Tuesday morning he called Bush directly and asked him to send everything he has. Bush responded, and I quote " The calvary is coming". That was Tuesday morning. That was also the morning that another levee was breached and things began to look really bleak. Wednesday morning he made another call to Bush, and he repeated the same words as before. Again Thursday and no federal response. The head of FEMA made these VERY telling comments that quite frankly made me very angry.


-"The federal government did not even know about the convention center people until today (Thursday). ... And I - my heart goes out to every - even if they chose not to evacuate, my heart still goes out to them, because they now find themselves in this catastrophic disaster. Now is not the time to be blaming."

First, the federal government knew about this disaster on Tuesday, not Thursday. Secondly wasn't anyone watching television, or were they out playing golf?


Brown: "The people in the convention center are being fed; the people on the bridges are being provided with water. ..."

According to our reporters who were there, nobody was in charge at the convention center. Nobody had been fed, nobody was coodinating any relief, and nobody from FEMA was there at all. Threr was nobody with any authority there at all.

Was this racial, I would venture to say yes and no. Did Bush neglect to move faster because the people most in need are black? No, there is no evidence of that. However, the fact that there were poor, and just happened to be black does raise some eyebrows, and some concerns. Would this have happened if this was happening to Los Angeles? Heck no, they(FEMA) was in there within 6-8 hours writing checks after 1994. How about in San Francisco in 1989. No, they were also in there within 24 hours. What I think is the real issue is that Bush put a man in charge of FEMA who has absolutely no track record with organizing diaster relief. He put a buddy of former FEMA chief(the ole buddy network) in charge of this branch of government, and that was a HUGE mistake.

I can really understand the rage of black people all over this country about this. My god-parents who raised me are black, and the pain they felt over this is tremendous. It really didn't help when they saw the way the media was portraying black people as looters and thugs. It really didn't help that the mayor of New Oleans is black, and there is a perception that Bush didn't take him seriously. But the cries of hungry black children and the pictures of poor blacks crying out for help I think hit a little too close to home for them.

In this country this should not have happened, I don't care what the race of the people are. When you know that a catagory 5 storm is headed for a major metropolitan area surrounded by levee's designed for a catagory 3 and in some places of the city 20ft below sea level, someone should have caught the hint that boats, and helicopter were going to be needed immediately.

I hope and pray that I never in my lifetime see the most powerful country in the world abandon their poor the way it did in this case. My dad told me that the way you can evalute the moral health of a country, is to look at how they treat the poor. In this case, Amercia could be seen as having no morals at all.

[Swerd]

... First the head of FEMA has absolutely no experience with any kind of diaster planning, rescue or relief experience. He was the head of some Arabian horse organization before this job at FEMA, and was buddy appointed by Bush with the full knowledge that he lacked any experience. He was asked to leave his post as head of the Arabian Horse Association in 2000

Question 1: Why is a person with no experience whatsoever being appointed to an organization with the task of provide support to distressed or displaced disaster victim's?

Question 2: Why do we Americans allow unqualified buddy appointments to exist amoung our government officials?I agree with your points about FEMA. They completely dropped the ball. And Bush must be held responsible for that failure.

Since Sept 11, 2001 Bush has told us a major terrorist strike is inevitable. Shouldn't there be a plan for evacuating a major American city? Even if there wasn't a specific plan for New Orleans, although it was clear that a breach of the city's levees was one of the likeliest natural catastrophes, there should have been a generic city evacuation plan. Bush told us time and again that our cities were threatened. Shouldn't he have ordered up a plan to get people out?

Someone should have also thought about what to do with hundreds of thousands of evacuees, both in the days after a disaster and in the long run. As it turned out, when people flooded out of New Orleans, it was state and local officials who rose to the challenge, making it up as they went along because there was no overall federal plan.

Is the problem the Bush administration's ideological fervor for small government?

Does the White House really believe that primary responsibility should fall on volunteers, church groups and individuals?

Or is it just stunning incompetence and lack of foresight?

[shokhead]

I dont think it had anything to do with the color of the skin or lack of money. I've come around and now think EVERYBODY screwed this up. But the worst part for me is that its still screwed up as of today,really fuc$ed up. We've done more for others in other countries and we for sure do more for the Mexicans coming across the border. It seems we screw our own while helping others outside the US. OK, i'll say it,i blame Bush. He is the leader.

[RGA]

"They've long ago set up liability reserves because they fully expect the US to rightfully win this dispute in the end."

Proof?


"Canada purposely omitted their stumpage tactics, violating that good faith"

Proof?

"Gay marriage is being opposed so strongly by the mostly silent conservatives and immigrants, who are among the most religious Canadian citizens."

Yes but the majority says otherwise -- and the majority doesn't vote conservative - they vote center.

"why are my tax dollars subsidizing that industry so Joe American can get a discount on lumber?" Umm Canadian loggers keep jobs, US citizens get cheaper wood...and the subsidy America has yet to prove which any way you slice it is why they keep losing. Got stone cold hard proof?

" have yet to meet someone who opposes gay marriage because the Americans don't like it...that's rediculous."

A - that makes no sense B I never suggested it. Religious people want to run everyone elses life - because there is absolutely no chance at all that the Christian view of the creator is even possibly not true. I don't give a rat's bottom why two men or two women want to get married and I don't care(they don;t hurt me or anyone else then whatever you want to do in your house go for -- you want to spank each other and do everything in Larry Flint's imagination then knock yourself out -- which will probably be the case) and it's not going to ruin the world - marriage or civil union or not they're gonna be together. I suppose I should be happy they're no longer being lynched for it.

I would not even mind some of the logical reasons put forth to wish to deny gay marriage but these dimwits still think it's a choice not biology. It's been 100% proven fact that it IS biology -- and if God created Man then God created them to be GAY. But logic and reasoning are not strong points when you put your eggs in the faith or intelligent design or whatever they want to call it this month.

I understand the need to believe in God -- People need to create a beacon for themselves to fill a void that something will be better than what is in their reality and in the face of no answers at least they have somthing to hold onto.

Great they create their life preserver and a bunch of others believe it but boy oh boy you're in big trouble if you don't go along. I mean I can't just believe in God I have to believe in him the EXACT same way as some book tells me too or I'm in hell. Man, from all the things religions don't let me do because they're "evil" sounds like hell would be fun -- nice blow jobs all day for a start -- if it's a sin as it is in many religious states that means it's evil and man o man I can;t wait to get head from Madonna in Hell (she's got a first class seat no doubt) Satan wasn't evil he just got tired of kissing butt all the time. (I'm sure I'm gonna get more votes now!) :rolleyes:

[kexodusc]

RGA - you want proof? Why don't you read the whole Goddam NAFTA decisions Canada claims to have won instead of the biased CBC versions that make the headlines...You'll find on no less than 3 occassions the NAFTA dispute panels have ruled that the stumpage fees are de facto subsidies...Now go. Look. Read. Learn. And when you come back I'll be here waiting for you to say "hey, Kex, you were right, how terribly incomplete and biased my country's media coverage has been on this situation".

[kexodusc]

B I never suggested it.

Oh? Then I must be dreaming when I see the following posted under your name:


Canada is heavily influenced and pressured by the United States no question of that -- if we were not then you would see a country that would be wildly different than it is now in my view. First -- gay marriage would be legal period.

Again, I can assure you Canada will (and has) made up its own mind on this issue independent of US influence.

[shokhead]

I think the French really stepped up. So far they have given tarps and tents.

[piece-it pete]

Wow it's like my local newspaper jingle here - "Miss a day, miss a lot".

The laying of blame is important to id and fix the problems. It looks like EVERY LEVEL of gov't screwed the pooch. Yes that does include Bush - the buck stops there.

I spoke to an acquaintance Friday, born and raised in NO, who now lives in Texas. He didn't blame Bush (tho he doesn't like him), or even the state - he blamed NO.

He said EVERYBODY knew about the problem since he could remember (and he's almost retired). He went on to say that NO'ers wouldn't fix it.

This does not absolve the feds' slow response to a legitimate disaster.

Anyway I'm sure most countries would help if they could. I was thinking of our enemies in my last post. I think France needs a special mention. We've had our problems but it's a family fight (like those Canadians ;) ), and NO was their... part? of us (the US people and culture). It must pain many of the French to see it now.

RGA there is a problem with separating hating the US gov't from the US people - in a democracy the gov't is a reflection of the people. After paying attention for some time I have come to the conclusion that some folks in the more aristocratic old world democracies have a hard time understanding this.

Yes I know that is a sweeping generalization and not always true. I blame Bush :p .

Who btw WAS reelected by the US citizen - not some evil US gov't or corporate plot. 52% doesn't sound like much but is a whopping win by US Presidential election standards. Republicans are only 30-35% of the general population. Get it? Or do we need to rent a billboard?

Pointing to his speaking skills as evidence of incompetence is the same as picking apart a posters' spelling errors - a ruse.

I would point to someone believing that a stupid man (or woman) could survive the American Presidential election process - and win - as a better indicator of that persons' intellegence. Well no self delusion (or just plain dissembling) isn't exclusive to the less intellegent, call it what it really is: bias.

We here in the US would have a lot more funds if we didn't spend so much protecting world shipping lanes - and the oil supply. Which was pointed out to me by a Canadian.

Pete

[RGA]

Oh? Then I must be dreaming when I see the following posted under your name:


Again, I can assure you Canada will (and has) made up its own mind on this issue independent of US influence.


First the majority of Canadians would allow gay marriage -- We have backpeddled on loosening the less harmful than alcohol, pot, due solely to US pressure that they will stop or slug so much cross border travel.

Nafta and WTO has ruled in our favour -- and awarded Canada a return of nearly 5 billion dolllars. Now any way you want to try and spin it if we're in the wrong then why would they do that? If you're saying Canada has a loop hole well they've been arguing this for more than 20 years in one form or another. http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/HET/Softwood/disputes.htm

"WTO panel concluded that the U.S. wrongly applied harsh duties on Canadian softwood exports. The panel also found that provincial stumpage programs provide a "financial benefit" to Canadian producers. But, the panel made it clear that the benefit is not enough to be a subsidy, and does not justify current U.S. duties

On Aug. 10, 2005, an “extraordinary challenge panel” under NAFTA dismissed American claims that the earlier NAFTA decision in favour of Canada violated trade rules."

[piece-it pete]

http://etherzone.com/2005/sent082905.shtml

[RGA]

Piece it Pete

Well he is sly smart getting your friends to be the crony vote counters where your Borther is governor is a help and knocking off large portions of black voters (ie democrats) off the rolls and calling it "a technical glitch" is very smart indeed. I love how religion and politics are separated -- see the 5-4 vote in the Gore Bush fiasco went right down party lines...so much for objectivity to the law (by the way that applies to the dems on the court as well).

I also like innocent until proven guilty -- lets not follow that Ahem Iraq -- but Haliburton has and will make Billions that they would not have made without it. But this discussion goes nowhere because if you're a Republican or a Democrat chances are you will side with your colour like people side with the flag. I mean look at the stink if someone doesn't rise to God Bless America at a Baseball game -- Carlos Delgado whose country has been screwed ovr by America for decades (which no doubt you'll disagree with) elected to stay on the Bench -- this makes all the papers (and he did stand for the Anthem). He's a communist because he isn't a sheep.

[shokhead]

The RIGHT thing to do is to stand for any Anthem. You dont have to say or sign anything but standing there and not talking until its over is the right thing to do.

[piece-it pete]

The RIGHT thing to do is to stand for any Anthem. You dont have to say or sign anything but standing there and not talking until its over is the right thing to do.

Just out of respect for your host :yes: .

Pete

[kexodusc]

First the majority of Canadians would allow gay marriage -- We have backpeddled on loosening the less harmful than alcohol, pot, due solely to US pressure that they will stop or slug so much cross border travel.

Again, I disagree...we backdown because of our own internal pressures.


Nafta and WTO has ruled in our favour -- and awarded Canada a return of nearly 5 billion dolllars. Now any way you want to try and spin it if we're in the wrong then why would they do that?
Yes, you can quote the media headlines until the cows come home. Why don't you start asking the right questions though. Why are the Americans purposely attacking the softwood imports? Just to protect domestic vendors? Wouldn't they realize there'd be long-term harm in that if Canada retaliated, not too mention drive up US consumer costs? Yes, they have...they also realized they got lawyered pretty bad in NAFTA in that industry.


If you're saying Canada has a loop hole well they've been arguing this for more than 20 years in one form or another. http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/HET/Softwood/disputes.htm

Yet another unbiased link with no vested interest in the outcome? Why aren't you posting an American site with their version of the history?
Here's a short version:

"Subsidies

In Canada, the government owns approximately 94% of the forest land. Instead of selling timber at fair market value – as the U.S. Forest Service and private landowners do – Canada’s provincial governments have a complex scheme of timber management which artificially encourages production (particularly in weak markets) and fixes timber prices bureaucratically at about one-fourth to one-third, on average, of its true market value.

Canadian governments add a web of regulations and practices to ensure that the subsidies benefit only Canadian sawmills and employment. Restrictions on the export of unprocessed logs prevent U.S. producers from receiving the low-price timber. Provincial governments allocate the vast bulk of timberlands through long-term "tenures" to limited numbers of large forest products firms which must agree to build and operate mills locally, stifling competition. Canadian governments often prevent companies from closing or reducing capacity and provide additional subsidies to support otherwise uneconomic mills. In effect, U.S. mills must compete against Canadian government treasuries and regulators intent on ensuring robust Canadian production and employment regardless of the market and regardless of the impact on U.S. producers.

Dumping

Canadian softwood lumber is being dumped into the United States by Canadian producers at less than the cost of production. The Canadian federal and provincial governments have caused distortions in the Canadian market and thereby encouraged dumping:

in exchange for administered, below-market price timber, Canadian companies effectively agree to produce lumber (and maintain employment) regardless of market conditions;
failure to cut an adequate volume of timber, regardless of poor market conditions, risks loss of provincial timber licenses;
in some provinces, even private forest owners are coerced to cut minimum amounts of timber rather than use their land solely for other purposes;
timber license agreements in British Columbia, for example, prohibit closing mills or reducing capacity without government approval;
federal and provincial stumpage subsidies and a ban on the export of logs from Crown lands increase the supply and lower the price of logs to Canadian lumber producers.
These and other market distortions in Canada encourage artificially inflated timber harvests, overproduction of softwood lumber, uneconomic decisions by Canadian lumber producers, and dumping of Canadian softwood lumber in the United States."

(from the USA Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports)

What you aren't hearing in the media is that Canada has set up trade barriers so that only Canadian companies can benefit from the massive advantage a government subsidized industry has. This was omitted from NAFTA at the time because a separate agreement was in place and was expected to be renewed shortly....Canada then cleverly bailed on it.

Truth is there have been numerous agreements over the years that both countries have signed outside of free-trade agreements. Every time Canada has conceded duties or export taxes because of admitted indirect subsidies through state charged stumpage fees. 100 years ago the National Policy was taking the exact same actions the Americans are doing now...our countries was built on dutying the hell out of imports from competing industries. It's a bit ironic that we would cry foul now when when our trading partners finally wisen up and close the door on our exploiting poorly written (or in this case lack of) terminology in trade agreements.

I suspect a good chunk of the 5 billion will be refunded. It's happened before in other industries too. But the USA has to do something to bring Canada to the table since there is no current export tax to compensate for state subsidized softwood exports.. You can't admit to having an unfair advantage in violation of the principles of NAFTA (which Canada has), and then drag your feet for 7 years at finding a solution to it, and then cry like a baby when your trade partner gets fed up and starts taking more aggressive actions to motivate you towards a solution.

Canada might have won a few NAFTA decisions, but keep in mind those decisions are only made from the authority given the panel, not from the position of determining who is "right or wrong". Big difference. According to NAFTA, they had to use artificially government determined "market prices" when determining the rate of subsidy, not the prevailing world commodity prices. That's like saying we want to audit your books, can we just take the numbers given as being true?"...what's the point in that?
You can bet that language won't be in any future trade agreement anywhere in the world.

For all your talk of the evil empire in the US, why don't you start asking why Canadian media and governments aren't telling the whole story to the Canadian people, instead of making rediculous David vs. Goliath propaganda?

[cam]

Hey Kex, so the Americans are angry with our affordable lumber so they put a tarrif on it. And the Americans are angry with the price of electricity, which is set within our North American market, so they don't pay us anything for the electricity that we supplied to keep the airconditioners on in California a few years ago. The US wants our lumber more expensive and our electricity cheaper. I think Uncle Sam has a bit of a control problem here. Maybe.

[bjornb17]

Hey Kex, so the Americans are angry with our affordable lumber so they put a tarrif on it. And the Americans are angry with the price of electricity, which is set within our North American market, so they don't pay us anything for the electricity that we supplied to keep the airconditioners on in California a few years ago. The US wants our lumber more expensive and our electricity cheaper. I think Uncle Sam has a bit of a control problem here. Maybe.

Thanks for the bargain :)

[kexodusc]

Hey Kex, so the Americans are angry with our affordable lumber so they put a tarrif on it. And the Americans are angry with the price of electricity, which is set within our North American market, so they don't pay us anything for the electricity that we supplied to keep the airconditioners on in California a few years ago. The US wants our lumber more expensive and our electricity cheaper. I think Uncle Sam has a bit of a control problem here. Maybe.

Hey Cam,

I don't know much about the energy issue out west...if it's as simple as not paying a bill then that's just wrong. Can't speak to that.
I know that in my part of the country we're buying electricity, oil, and natural gas from Maine some months, and selling it other months. There's a complex accounting scheme of forward reserves and the like, maybe there's something similar in the situation you speak of? I know the CBC here did stories on Maine needing a ton of natural gas etc and how we were selling it to them (government making a ton of money) and everyone would go home rich. Great feel good story, except it didn't talk at all about how we were buying it from Maine at the time, not selling it...a bit bizarre don't ya think?
...there's so much Ra-Ra Canada bullcrap in the media these days that it's easy for the public to get lead down the wrong path. The politicians know this...it's cool to blame Americans for all our own mistakes, the public loves it...it's like we're coming together as a country, standing up for ourselves. The media loves making these stories too because people watch.

America's got its problems for sure, but after all the disgusting lies and scandals in Canadian governments (NDP, Liberal, and Conservative) in the past few years, I'm amazed at how much blind trust and faith Canadians have in their government. A lot of Americans don't vote anymore because they got tired of it. I see that happening here too.

My honest opinion on the softwood lumber is that Canada is slightly more in the right than in the wrong...the duties are too high now. But we ignored the earlier attempts by the Americans to address the situation and we're playing a pretty dirty game here. I love it when the Premiers complain about US government caving in to t the lumber industry lobbyists...that's exactly what Canada is doing now...except worse because we subsidize their operations so much.

Funny thing is, with the $US dollar getting destroyed by the Canadian in the past 2 years, softwood lumber isn't as cheap as it use to be for them. It's gone up 30% in price since 2002. Most of the layoffs that are going to hit the industry have nothing to do with tarriffs, and more to do with uncompetitive businesses that can't rely on an artificially devalued Canadian dollar to sell their softwood. I think the dispute now is over the money "lost" the past few years.

[RGA]

The RIGHT thing to do is to stand for any Anthem. You dont have to say or sign anything but standing there and not talking until its over is the right thing to do.

He stood for the Anthem -- "God Bless America" is not an Anthem -- and that implies that God is on side with America -- Shudder! I know bush hears voices but seriously... :eek:

[RGA]

For all your talk of the evil empire in the US, why don't you start asking why Canadian media and governments aren't telling the whole story to the Canadian people, instead of making rediculous David vs. Goliath propaganda?

So your retort is American propaganda -- That is why there is the WTO and Nafta both of which are supposed to be outside impartial observers. Let's assume that American viewpoint - why agree to do business knowing how the Canadian system works? Ohh so every other country has to bend to ecxactly the way America does everything -- freedom as visioned by the Americans, business as deemed by the Americans?

An international court free of American influence is what is needed.

[GMichael]

So your retort is American propaganda -- That is why there is the WTO and Nafta both of which are supposed to be outside impartial observers. Let's assume that American viewpoint - why agree to do business knowing how the Canadian system works? Ohh so every other country has to bend to ecxactly the way America does everything -- freedom as visioned by the Americans, business as deemed by the Americans?

An international court free of American influence is what is needed.

How can there be a true international court if all countries, including American, are not involved?

[kexodusc]

So your retort is American propaganda -- That is why there is the WTO and Nafta both of which are supposed to be outside impartial observers. Let's assume that American viewpoint - why agree to do business knowing how the Canadian system works? Ohh so every other country has to bend to ecxactly the way America does everything -- freedom as visioned by the Americans, business as deemed by the Americans?


Nafta isn't an impartial observer, it's an agreement between two trade parties with some pre-determined power to handle disputes. An agreement based on principles of full-disclosure and FREE TRADE policies that Canada entered into in good faith...supposedly not withholding hidden agendas and greedy tactics for government sponsored industry and artificially determined market price. (except outside of cable tv, radio, utilities, air travel, and few explicitly defined items therein, but let's not go there) They couldn't add it into NAFTA at the time because of pre-existing softwood agreements, once those ran out they hoped to renogiate. This dispute was inevitable as long as any softwood agreement had an expiry date. The length of the dispute was the only question.

Canada began exploiting the lack of an agreement, and was reluctant to go back to the table as promised with any meaningful proposal because they were making too much money off of it. So the US is just pressuring them a bit the only way they know can without it spilling over into other industries. The combined pressures of both countries will send them back to the table.

Hey, turnaround is fair play...our government is unfairly protecting our companies, the US government is looking out for theirs.

[piece-it pete]

He stood for the Anthem -- "God Bless America" is not an Anthem -- and that implies that God is on side with America -- Shudder! I know bush hears voices but seriously... :eek:


You know the old saying, When in Rome...

Common curtesy.

"God Bless America" is a prayer asking for Gods' blessing. Our patriotic songs/hymns are nothing new, and iirc the entire Congress sang "America the Beautiful" en masse on the steps of the Capitol after 9-11, including Democrats. This includes the line "God shed His grace on thee" (one of 8 mentions) - another request.

"The Battle Hymn of the Republic" must drive you atheist guys nuts ;) !

Pete

[markw]

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
Our True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada!
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
|: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. :|

O Canada!
Where pines and maples grow,
Great prairies spread and lordly rivers flow,
How dear to us thy broad domain,
From East to Western sea!
Thou land of hope for all who toil!
Thou True North strong and free!
God keep our land glorious and free!
|: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. :|

O Canada!
Beneath thy shining skies
May stalwart sons and gentle maidens rise
To keep thee steadfast through the years
From East to Western sea,
Our own beloved native land,
Our True North strong and free!
God keep our land glorious and free!
|: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. :|

Ruler supreme,
Who hearest humble prayer,
Hold our Dominion in Thy loving care.
Help us to find, O God, in Thee
A lasting rich reward,
As waiting for the better day,
We ever stand on guard.
God keep our land glorious and free!
|: O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. :|

[markw]

Maybe, but let's be honest here, why are my tax dollars subsidizing that industry so Joe American can get a discount on lumber? That's BS. Time to quit putting unproductive industries on 20 year life support and let them die.Seems like each country screws it's own. You guys get our USA made perscription drugs at a much, much lower price than we can buy them for. Our tax dollars subsidise the companies that develop and research 'em and then we still have to pay more than other countries pay for 'em.

[kexodusc]

Seems like each country screws it's own. You guys get our USA made perscription drugs at a much, much lower price than we can buy them for. Our tax dollars subsidise the companies that develop and research 'em and then we still have to pay more than other countries pay for 'em.
Ha ha..I paid taxes in both countries last year, man does my rear end hurt.

Canada produces an aweful pile of drugs, and drug carriers, and contributes a great amount per capita to research too... so does Europe (ever hear of Glaxo?). Those drugs are made from worldwide efforts for the most part, I think it's a bit different than a natural resource. Patents give a countrie's economy some return on investment for R&D.

I think US companies must pay the same price to make/produce them (probably less if volume is higher), it's the mark-up we take hard in the US.

I have a pharmacist friend here in Canada now, he's making a pretty penny off those "low" priced Canadian drugs...he has his own 9 hole golf course!!! :mad:

[piece-it pete]

....man does my rear end hurt.


:lmao:

Is the Canadian version of the IRS similar?

Pete

[kexodusc]

:lmao:

Is the Canadian version of the IRS similar?

Pete
That's a great question, Pete. The IRS is more like a big drunken goon in a bar fight that comes, does his job, and leaves. Maybe buys you a beer the next time you see him. Sooner or later you know he'll come back to beat you up again though.

The Canada Revenue Agency is far more malicious, like an ex-girlfriend with an agenda. Sneakier, more subtle...and never lets bygones be bygones. They tax ya slowly on everything, all a bit at a time in sales taxes and stuff. Tons of "hidden" taxes you don't think about. Then they make it seem like they're doing YOU a favor at tax time. They're even slower than the IRS.

Maine and NB, Canada's rates are about the same, all things considered. I didn't make much money when I was going to school in Georgia so I didn't really pay much attention to taxes there. From what my families tell me when they discuss this stuff, I think both countries are pretty equal when all things are considered, just very different systems.

I was a little disappointed when I had to pay a 10% Amusement Tax in Ontario to see the Toronto Maple Leafs play the Montreal Canadians because hockey isn't legally considered Canadian entertainment. But that same week I could go to see Pearl Jam and not pay the tax?

[cam]

That's a great question, Pete. The IRS is more like a big drunken goon in a bar fight that comes, does his job, and leaves. Maybe buys you a beer the next time you see him. Sooner or later you know he'll come back to beat you up again though.

The Canada Revenue Agency is far more malicious, like an ex-girlfriend with an agenda. Sneakier, more subtle...and never lets bygones be bygones. They tax ya slowly on everything, all a bit at a time in sales taxes and stuff. Tons of "hidden" taxes you don't think about. Then they make it seem like they're doing YOU a favor at tax time. They're even slower than the IRS.

Maine and NB, Canada's rates are about the same, all things considered. I didn't make much money when I was going to school in Georgia so I didn't really pay much attention to taxes there. From what my families tell me when they discuss this stuff, I think both countries are pretty equal when all things are considered, just very different systems.

I was a little disappointed when I had to pay a 10% Amusement Tax in Ontario to see the Toronto Maple Leafs play the Montreal Canadians because hockey isn't legally considered Canadian entertainment. But that same week I could go to see Pearl Jam and not pay the tax?
Been Canadian my whole life over on the west coast and I have never heard of an amusement tax. What a stupid a$$ tax, I hope it stays in Ontario.

[piece-it pete]

Jeez I hope I never hear of an amusement tax around here, either. It would cease to be amusing!

Anyone catch Irans' kind offer of assistance? 20 million? barrels of oil - as long as we lift sanctions!

Yeah, thanks :rolleyes:

Pete

[Woochifer]

Jeez I hope I never hear of an amusement tax around here, either. It would cease to be amusing!

There are already plenty of publicly-subsidized venues that assess surcharges on event tickets. Also, the parking fees often contain plenty of hidden taxes as well, so in a way, we are already paying amusement taxes without even knowing it.


Anyone catch Irans' kind offer of assistance? 20 million? barrels of oil - as long as we lift sanctions!

Yeah, thanks :rolleyes:

Pete

Too bad Saddam's been taken out. Just think of what kind of a bidding war Iraq and Iran could have engaged in to see who could "surprise" us the most with their generosity! North Korea doesn't have any resources that they can dangle in front of us (although they do have a few nuclear missiles that they can use to raise some funds), otherwise we could've had an full-on Axis of Evil charity event on our hands. :D

[kexodusc]

Jeez I hope I never hear of an amusement tax around here, either. It would cease to be amusing!

Anyone catch Irans' kind offer of assistance? 20 million? barrels of oil - as long as we lift sanctions!

Yeah, thanks :rolleyes:

Pete


Yeah, it's not so much the amusement tax I have a problem with, as much as the stupid logic behind it. Try telling a Canadian citizen that hockey isn't a Canadian form of entertainment...but somehow Pearl Jam is?

I really expected more from Iran...there's a time and place international posturing...this wasn't it. Did they really think we'd lift sanctions? Damn, I can't wait for some genius to develop a low cost synthesizing process, fuel cell, super battery or whatever so we can get off this damn addiction to foreign oil. I hope it happens fast, overnight, so these cocky, one trick pony nations have those carpets pulled out from underneath them. Somehow I think diplomacy will be much easier once oil is removed from the equation.