Question about tubes and expected lifetimes

[JonW]

So how long do you get out of the tubes in a tube amp?

I'm just pondering the idea of an improved audio system here in my office. I don't need much power because my office is small (12 x 12 feet). No experience with tubes. Maybe this is a good place to try out a tube amp for the first time. The main hesitation is that I work about 70 hours a week and have music playing for nearly all of that. :) So at 70 hours a week, I'm not sure how practical it would be to have a tube amp. One place I found said to expect 1,500 - 10,000 hours out of tubes. Or between 5 months and 3 years for me. Hmmm...

Related note:
Most of what I listen to in the office (web radio, CD's, mp3's) comes from my Mac computer which only has a small headphone-like output. I'm thinking I could just go computer -> amp -> speakers, with a proper adapter, right? Although if I wanted to use a subwoofer, I'd probably have to get a receiver rather than an amp, correct? And if I wanted to run 4 speakers (I work at two adjacent desks) playing regular 2 channel stereo music, that would also require a receiver rather than an amp, correct?

[Geoffcin]

So how long do you get out of the tubes in a tube amp?

I'm just pondering the idea of an improved audio system here in my office. I don't need much power because my office is small (12 x 12 feet). No experience with tubes. Maybe this is a good place to try out a tube amp for the first time. The main hesitation is that I work about 70 hours a week and have music playing for nearly all of that. :) So at 70 hours a week, I'm not sure how practical it would be to have a tube amp. One place I found said to expect 1,500 - 10,000 hours out of tubes. Or between 5 months and 3 years for me. Hmmm...

Related note:
Most of what I listen to in the office (web radio, CD's, mp3's) comes from my Mac computer which only has a small headphone-like output. I'm thinking I could just go computer -> amp -> speakers, with a proper adapter, right? Although if I wanted to use a subwoofer, I'd probably have to get a receiver rather than an amp, correct? And if I wanted to run 4 speakers (I work at two adjacent desks) playing regular 2 channel stereo music, that would also require a receiver rather than an amp, correct?

Your not going to get what tube lovers like in the setup that you've discribe. Much better if you get a quality aftermarket stereo computer system. I use two, one from Cambridge Soundworks, and another from Von Schweikert, although that model has now ben discontinued. The CSW system that I use is designed to play with your computer, and is very good at producing high fidelity computer sound. The model I use is currently on sale;
http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=spc_bts&item=c1mw21ee


http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/images/gold/full/c1mw21ee.jpg

[RGA]

The problem is there are many different tube amp designs and tubes. Certain tubes are very expensive such as the KT 88 while the EL 34's are cheaper you generally need more of them or the amp has more of them. EL 84 based amps such as mine can be very inexpensive and last a very long time - but they tend to be much lower powered so you need more.

My tube amp has 10 tubes in it with a rated longjevity of 8000 hours. In a normal home at about 2 hours a day (which is a lot if you factor in all the vacation away) is about 700hours a year -- add another 200 hours to be safe and this is theoretically more than 10 years on the stock tubes,

The thing is that my amp runs in what is called Single Ended operation and requires no tube biasing. If you use a push pull design chances are, unless otherwise noted, you will have to use a voltmeter to make sure the tubes are opersating within established parameters. And every time you replace tubes you'll have to bias. It's easy to do but it's kinda like a carborator versus fuel injection when it comes to the pain in the arse of it all.

I am of the opinion that the best sound rules the day -- If you listen a ton then IMO you should be listening a ton to something that sounds good. I just would not assume that a tube amp is automatically better -- it isn't.

I like tube amps a great deal but under $2k the best amplifier I have heard (and amps are not independant of speakers) is the SS Sugden A21a. The amp operates in pure class A like tube amps but also is a single ended topology like SETs. But the Sugden has a considerable amount more power than most SETs and handle loads better than many tube amps will(though not as well as other SS amps).

It's all a big balancing act that must be sifted through. Wanting to try tubes is fun and I recommend doing it -- but at the same time you want it to be a good fit - one that doesn;t make you frustrated rather than in bliss.

I happen to think SS is way more consistant across the board. Consistently average so there are not too many really horrible SS amps but few are really interesting to me. Tubes on the other hand have Baskin Robins sound across a very wide spectrum(and I'm still just in an infant stage on tube amps and have already noticed this) - that can lead to a higher level of musical satisfaction by a very very large degree over the best SS I've ever heard but so too can it yield rather clunky even unnacceptable results.

With your desire for subs and running off of a computer etc can be good.

I would suggest you try and think about a compromise tube amp -- a Jolida Hybrid. BrianB of Venus Hi-fi has a Jolida Hybrid - Audio Note AX Two combination that may be a wonderful set-up - the AX Two is a $600.00 Standmount with very good bass and the Jolida I think is under $500.00. So you get the Jolida preamp section as tube and the power amp as SS. Preamp tubes last MUCH longer - 10,000 to 100,000 and best of all there is probably only one or two tubes in the thing and is they are 12AX7 tubes which is more than likely they run $9.00 each. That's probably better than you'll do just replacing lighbulbs in your office.

If you contact them (Brian is on a forum called AudioKarma) they may ship you the amp and the speakers for a trial run to see if you like it all. The AX Two is the best under $1k speaker I've come across. For $600.00 they are hand built in Denmark using Vifa drivers.

http://www.venushifi.com/recommended.shtml

[Geoffcin]

Although I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, as it was titled incorrectly.

From what I've read in your post, you are looking for higher quality backround music while you work, and are driving your system with your Apple computer. For this you really don't need, or would want an expensive quirky tube amp.

To follow his advice is going to cost you thousands, and with the sources you have discribed will net you very little in better audio. I'm not saying that tubes might not be your thing, but for backround music playing when you work it's a real waste of $$$.

[JonW]

Your not going to get what tube lovers like in the setup that you've discribe. Much better if you get a quality aftermarket stereo computer system. I use two, one from Cambridge Soundworks, and another from Von Schweikert, although that model has now ben discontinued. The CSW system that I use is designed to play with your computer, and is very good at producing high fidelity computer sound. The model I use is currently on sale;
http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=spc_bts&item=c1mw21ee


http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/images/gold/full/c1mw21ee.jpg

Hey Geoff,

Right. Actually, what I have (playing at this very moment) is a similar setup from Klipsch. I'm not sure if it's this one, but it looks the same:
http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=102
For the $250 it cost 5 years ago, I'm very happy with it. I was just thinking in terms of upping the sound quality here in the office, that's all. So maybe I'm kind of already maxed out on sound quality that I can get out of the computer, eh? Oh well. Just a thought.

[JonW]

My tube amp has 10 tubes in it with a rated longjevity of 8000 hours. In a normal home at about 2 hours a day (which is a lot if you factor in all the vacation away) is about 700hours a year -- add another 200 hours to be safe and this is theoretically more than 10 years on the stock tubes

Hi RGA,

Thanks for the reply. I was looking for some perspective on tube longevtiy. Got it. I'd be willing to fiddle with the tubes every year or two. But if I needed to change or adjust them monthly, then that would be a bit too much of a pain for my needs.

-Jon

[Geoffcin]

Hey Geoff,

Right. Actually, what I have (playing at this very moment) is a similar setup from Klipsch. I'm not sure if it's this one, but it looks the same:
http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=102
For the $250 it cost 5 years ago, I'm very happy with it. I was just thinking in terms of upping the sound quality here in the office, that's all. So maybe I'm kind of already maxed out on sound quality that I can get out of the computer, eh? Oh well. Just a thought.

But tubes aren't the answer here. The problem with upgrading is that your going to be sitting in front of a computer, and the best way to hear music in that position is nearfield. A home hifi system is very difficult to use successfully if your in front of a computer.

My advice would be to first get a top notch soundcard. I use the Audigy, but the newer Audigy 2ZS does DVD-Audio, has 192/24 DAC's and uses upsampling with a sophisticated algorithms for CD playback. If you play most of your music in MP3 format try to get the highest rez file you can. 192khz is good, 256khz is better. Forget about streaming audio, that's mostly very poor quality.

[RGA]

the ax two is brilliant in the nearfield - people have bought them for their computers -- search audiokarma.com. Tinny satelites with a "i can't believe it's not a sub" subwoofer is not an upgrade or even good. All these sub sats are well unlistenable to me. The Energy Take five is one of the better ones and really it's a glorified Bose acoustimass.

The poster was looking at tubes -- the Jolida Hybrid could very well run ten years playing 24 hours a day and not needing a replacement tube. There is an Audio Note tube amp that is rated at a minimum of 100,000 hours -- 11 years 24 hours a day. and a $6.00 tube.

I worked at McDonalds and we had three SS receivers dies within 6 months of heavy use.

Jolida 301 http://www.vacuumtube.com/vacuum.htm

Background music or not -- it can still be noticeable whether it's good or not. Though if it's too good it could take you off your work :D

[JonW]

But tubes aren't the answer here. The problem with upgrading is that your going to be sitting in front of a computer, and the best way to hear music in that position is nearfield. A home hifi system is very difficult to use successfully if your in front of a computer.

My advice would be to first get a top notch soundcard. I use the Audigy, but the newer Audigy 2ZS does DVD-Audio, has 192/24 DAC's and uses upsampling with a sophisticated algorithms for CD playback. If you play most of your music in MP3 format try to get the highest rez file you can. 192khz is good, 256khz is better. Forget about streaming audio, that's mostly very poor quality.

I didn't realize there is a difference in near vs. far listening. Go figure.

Most streaming audio is, indeed, of poor quality. These guys have a "CD quality" stream, although I usually just listen through iTunes:
http://www.kexp.org/
That's the best radio station I've ever come across (to my tastes).

[JonW]

the ax two is brilliant in the nearfield - people have bought them for their computers -- search audiokarma.com. Tinny satelites with a "i can't believe it's not a sub" subwoofer is not an upgrade or even good. All these sub sats are well unlistenable to me. The Energy Take five is one of the better ones and really it's a glorified Bose acoustimass.

The poster was looking at tubes -- the Jolida Hybrid could very well run ten years playing 24 hours a day and not needing a replacement tube. There is an Audio Note tube amp that is rated at a minimum of 100,000 hours -- 11 years 24 hours a day. and a $6.00 tube.

I worked at McDonalds and we had three SS receivers dies within 6 months of heavy use.

Jolida 301 http://www.vacuumtube.com/vacuum.htm

Background music or not -- it can still be noticeable whether it's good or not. Though if it's too good it could take you off your work :D

100,000 hours?! :)

Yes, I wouldn't mind if the music distracted me from work. As it is, the music sure makes work much, much more pleasant. Happy that I have my own office and can listen all I want. :)

[RGA]

Yes the Audio Note Dac 1 is rated to 100,000 hours or roughly 24 hours a day for 11 years.

The thing is simply to do a little research on the tube or SET asylum at audioasylum.com. The other thing is they're typically built better than SS so I would rather replace tubes every few years than the amplifier.

We went through 3 recievers in 6 months at a heavy use operation -- there are tube amps from the 40's still working spot on perfect.

[theaudiohobby]

there are tube amps from the 40's still working spot on perfect.

In heavy use such as being trashed at McDs daily? hmm...