High End Receiver dilema ?

[Yoda]

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new at this stuff and I'm building a home theater. I have the Jamo E770 in the front with E750s in back (yes this is 4 floorstandings), one forward and one rear center channel, and 2 subs (6.1 setup). Using the Optoma H78DC3 with Da-Lite screen. Large room.

I was planning on using the Integra DTR-7.4. However, I began reading about the Marantz and the Denons and onkyos.......and this lead to confusion.

I want to spend about $1500.....what do you guys suggest ??

Thanks

[GMichael]

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new at this stuff and I'm building a home theater. I have the Jamo E770 in the front with E750s in back (yes this is 4 floorstandings), one forward and one rear center channel, and 2 subs (6.1 setup). Using the Optoma H78DC3 with Da-Lite screen. Large room.

I was planning on using the Integra DTR-7.4. However, I began reading about the Marantz and the Denons and onkyos.......and this lead to confusion.

I want to spend about $1500.....what do you guys suggest ??

Thanks

Many to choose from, and most of them are very good. I like my Yamaha a lot. It does it all. Plenty of others will like Denon, Onkyo, HK etc. I picked the Yammie because I liked how it sounded and how few returns they get on them. You can get the RX-V2500 for about $1000 at authorized dealers (I like getting a warranty). The RX-V4600 is about $1800 and has a better amp. But I don't think you need it. Your speakers are 6 ohm right? Should be no problem.

[N. Abstentia]

For $1500 I wouldn't waste time with a receiver, you can do far far far better for the money with seperates. I would suggest this preamp:
http://outlawaudio.com/products/990.html

Which leaves you $400 for a 5 channel amp which is very doable if you keep an eye on Ebay and Audiogon. I'm seeing nice amps from B&K, Rotel, Parasound, Acurus, etc in that price range. This combo will absolutely kill any receiver in the price range.

[kexodusc]

I'm with N.Abstentia - if you can swing it, go the power amp route.
If space is a concern, I'd look at either Arcam, Rotel, or NAD in that order. These receivers should be in your price range and do deliver quality and power on par with separates.

[Tarheel_]

I disagree with the above recommendations on going seperates....

Yoda didn't mention trying to squeeze every bit of performance. He said he needs a AV receiver to control his 6.1 system.

For $1500, your forced to buy used or lower-end seperates which probably will not possess video up conversion, advanced bass management, etc....all of which a $1500 receiver will do. Plus, he gets a warranty and the overall convenience a AVR provides.

Stick with your plan and go get a new receiver (with warranty), any of the brands mentioned will provide a nice hub for your HT. I'll throw another brand to consider....Sherwood Newcastle. The Newcastle line is Sherwood's upper brand and will do your HT right.

[kexodusc]

Tarheel's right, might be a bit too forward thinking on our part to dive into separates. I'm just looking at bucks we're talking about, and thinking in 2, 3, 4 years, one might be in a better position to upgrade and probably still have all the control/processing features he needs.
Nothing wrong with getting a good avr and then adding amps as needed (if needed)...which is why I recommend Adcom, Rotel, Nad, etc...I find them the most user friendly, best sounding, and among the highest quality receivers in that price range. For most people, that's all they'd need.

[JonW]

For $1500 I wouldn't waste time with a receiver, you can do far far far better for the money with seperates. I would suggest this preamp:
http://outlawaudio.com/products/990.html

Which leaves you $400 for a 5 channel amp which is very doable if you keep an eye on Ebay and Audiogon. I'm seeing nice amps from B&K, Rotel, Parasound, Acurus, etc in that price range. This combo will absolutely kill any receiver in the price range.

Hmmm... receivers vs. seperates... I keep thinking about this. For my needs (mostly music with a little movies) I'm thinking about the Arcam AVR300 at the moment. But for $2,000...? Idunno. I guess there are multiple options.

[GMichael]

Hmmm... receivers vs. seperates... I keep thinking about this. For my needs (mostly music with a little movies) I'm thinking about the Arcam AVR300 at the moment. But for $2,000...? Idunno. I guess there are multiple options.

Here is a good combo of seperates if you want to go that way. These may be available cheeper on Ebay or something if you don't care about warranties.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=ADCGTPKIT7&product_name=GTP-880%207%2E1-Channel%20Preamp/Processor%20%26%20GFA-7605%20Five%20Channel%20Home%20Theater%20Amplifier

[JonW]

Here is a good combo of seperates if you want to go that way. These may be available cheeper on Ebay or something if you don't care about warranties.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=ADCGTPKIT7&product_name=GTP-880%207%2E1-Channel%20Preamp/Processor%20%26%20GFA-7605%20Five%20Channel%20Home%20Theater%20Amplifier

Thanks. I haven't read much about Adcom, so I should do some looking around. About 50% more than the Arcam receiver. Although part of that expense is an amp, which you can always use ven when the pre pro is obsolete.

Maybe I need to compare the sound of the Arcam (not using the internal amp) to some dedicated pre pros. And see if there's an appreciable difference. If not, I can always just get the Arcam receiver and add amps later, as needed.

[Lexmark3200]

Hmmm... receivers vs. seperates... I keep thinking about this. For my needs (mostly music with a little movies) I'm thinking about the Arcam AVR300 at the moment. But for $2,000...? Idunno. I guess there are multiple options.

And thus Jon it turns into that inevitable "at which point do you consider separates?" as flagship receivers from the likes of, say, Denon or Onkyo, can easily be 3 to 4,000 dollars and so we must wonder......go with a flagship receiver THAT expensive or start looking into separates?

[Yoda]

First of all.....THANKS YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR INPUT. You guys are great.

I do want the warranty...just my preference. I think separates are not an option, especially since I live in AL. Dealers have always been a problem down here.

[N. Abstentia]

I disagree with the above recommendations on going seperates....

Yoda didn't mention trying to squeeze every bit of performance. He said he needs a AV receiver to control his 6.1 system.

For $1500, your forced to buy used or lower-end seperates which probably will not possess video up conversion, advanced bass management, etc....all of which a $1500 receiver will do. Plus, he gets a warranty and the overall convenience a AVR provides.



Wait a minute now, the 7.1 preamp I suggested does indeed have video up conversion, advanced bass mangagement ALONG with other features that an AVR might not have, such as balanced outputs, DVI switching, better DAC's, and more than 2 component video inputs. This $1100 preamp trounces the cheap preamp that is found in a $1500 AVR and it does indeed have a full warranty. A 6 channel amp can be had for less than $500 that will bury any AVR amp. True at that price you have to go used with no warranty...but it's an AMP. It just works.


I just don't understand how someone with $1500 would not get seperates. It boggles the mind. It's a no brainer, get the seperates. If you don't, you'll kick yourself in the ass every time you turn on your all-in-one receiver.

[GMichael]

Wait a minute now, the 7.1 preamp I suggested does indeed have video up conversion, advanced bass mangagement ALONG with other features that an AVR might not have, such as balanced outputs, DVI switching, better DAC's, and more than 2 component video inputs. This $1100 preamp trounces the cheap preamp that is found in a $1500 AVR and it does indeed have a full warranty. A 6 channel amp can be had for less than $500 that will bury any AVR amp. True at that price you have to go used with no warranty...but it's an AMP. It just works.


I just don't understand how someone with $1500 would not get seperates. It boggles the mind. It's a no brainer, get the seperates. If you don't, you'll kick yourself in the ass every time you turn on your all-in-one receiver.

Great site N.Ab. Is the outlaw better than the Adcom? I see that they have a few combo packages also.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Wait a minute now, the 7.1 preamp I suggested does indeed have video up conversion, advanced bass mangagement ALONG with other features that an AVR might not have, such as balanced outputs, DVI switching, better DAC's, and more than 2 component video inputs. This $1100 preamp trounces the cheap preamp that is found in a $1500 AVR and it does indeed have a full warranty. A 6 channel amp can be had for less than $500 that will bury any AVR amp. True at that price you have to go used with no warranty...but it's an AMP. It just works.


I just don't understand how someone with $1500 would not get seperates. It boggles the mind. It's a no brainer, get the seperates. If you don't, you'll kick yourself in the ass every time you turn on your all-in-one receiver.

I have to agree with you on this one. I went the seperates way recently and paid a total of $750 total for 5 VERY high quality stereo amps off ebay. 3 of the 5 were only a year old, and the other two had never been used. I am also looking VERY seriously at the Outlaw pre-pro. Seperates are definately the way to go at this price point.

[Tarheel_]

I have to agree with you on this one. I went the seperates way recently and paid a total of $750 total for 5 VERY high quality stereo amps off ebay. 3 of the 5 were only a year old, and the other two had never been used. I am also looking VERY seriously at the Outlaw pre-pro. Seperates are definately the way to go at this price point.

Sir TT,
I have to disagree with ya on this one. Yoda said he's new at this HT stuff so for people to advise him to go directly into separates is bit ahead of his situation/experience.

I think most on this board admit most spearates sound superior to AVRs, but AVRs do offer bonuses in the $1500 price range.

Lower end separates usually offer less options, occupy more real estate, create more heat (if using multiple amps), force u to buy more cables and the need for more outlets.

You may hear a difference going from an AVR to separates, but i would bet most newbies cannot.

Anyway, i'm just trying to make a point. Heck, i love my $1200 (list) HK reciever for its convienence and performance, but i admit i want to go separates. When i research separates in that price range, I just don't see the advantage....and that may be my problem...i need to hear some good separates outside of a dealer.

[Glen B]

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new at this stuff and I'm building a home theater. I have the Jamo E770 in the front with E750s in back (yes this is 4 floorstandings), one forward and one rear center channel, and 2 subs (6.1 setup). Using the Optoma H78DC3 with Da-Lite screen. Large room.

I was planning on using the Integra DTR-7.4. However, I began reading about the Marantz and the Denons and onkyos.......and this lead to confusion.

I want to spend about $1500.....what do you guys suggest ??

Thanks

If you can swing $2,000, it will get you nice, no-nonsense separates from Outlaw Audio.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/index.html

[nick4433]

Sir TT,
I have to disagree with ya on this one. Yoda said he's new at this HT stuff so for people to advise him to go directly into separates is bit ahead of his situation/experience.

I think most on this board admit most spearates sound superior to AVRs, but AVRs do offer bonuses in the $1500 price range.

Lower end separates usually offer less options, occupy more real estate, create more heat (if using multiple amps), force u to buy more cables and the need for more outlets.

You may hear a difference going from an AVR to separates, but i would bet most newbies cannot.

Anyway, i'm just trying to make a point. Heck, i love my $1200 (list) HK reciever for its convienence and performance, but i admit i want to go separates. When i research separates in that price range, I just don't see the advantage....and that may be my problem...i need to hear some good separates outside of a dealer.

Tarheel, I am with N. Abstentia and Sir TT on this one.
The Outlaw 990 is not a "lower end seperates" as you point out. I could not tell the difference between the Outlaw 950 and my Pioneer 2012K as a prepro but the 990 is definitely richer sounding.
Why are you so concerned with warranty? I believe all Outlaw products carry a five year warranty and a generous 30 day return policy.
Also the Outlaw offers very good DVI and Component video switching and Bass Management for external sources which a $1500 I believe will not and I may be wrong there.
All in all, receivers will simply not deliver the power it requires for HT and even music sounds well refined and richer in tonal quality through external amplification.

[mixadude]

I'm amused... nobody suggests buying a hi end AVR on ebay. I bought a barely used Pioneer Elite VSX-59TXi for $1850 on ebay, then registered it at Pioneer, full warantee. I am not dissapointed, but my requirements are not quite so essoteric, and space is a consideration. It has plenty of power, sounds great, has loads of features, and a backlit rechargable remote that works.

I've been a sound engineer for 30 years and fiddle, optimize, and patch stuff for a living, big big big stuff, where everything is "separate". I'm just not all that interested in goofing with my rig when I get home, I just want it to work acceptably.

Some ppl just don't care about separates for a HiFi and I'm one of em!

[mixadude]

...The more features, gizmos, chips, power supplies you cram in a box the more you degrade the sound signal as I am sure everyone here already knows.That's ludicrous, ever see a digital mixer?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm amused... nobody suggests buying a hi end AVR on ebay. I bought a barely used Pioneer Elite VSX-59TXi for $1850 on ebay, then registered it at Pioneer, full warantee. I am not dissapointed, but my requirements are not quite so essoteric, and space is a consideration. It has plenty of power, sounds great, has loads of features, and a backlit rechargable remote that works.

I've been a sound engineer for 30 years and fiddle, optimize, and patch stuff for a living, big big big stuff, where everything is "separate". I'm just not all that interested in goofing with my rig when I get home, I just want it to work acceptably.

Some ppl just don't care about separates for a HiFi and I'm one of em!

I am in the same boat as yourself. I have been mixing and recording soundtracks for a little longer than 20 years, and my very nature makes me patch, fiddle, configure, and route. I guess that is why my system looks so complicated, but is so well integrated.

[mazdamanic]

N. Absentia is right, if you have $1500 to spare, it dosen't make sense sonically to go with a receiver unless you have a space constraint. The more features, gizmos, chips, power supplies you cram in a box the more you degrade the sound signal as I am sure everyone here already knows.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

That's ludicrous, ever see a digital mixer?

Digital mixers do not include power amps, and are usually alot larger than a receiver.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir TT,
I have to disagree with ya on this one. Yoda said he's new at this HT stuff so for people to advise him to go directly into separates is bit ahead of his situation/experience.

Tarheel, just how much experience is required before you move on to seperates. I never knew that going after quality requires experience. Setting up seperates is really no more difficult than setting up a receiver.


think most on this board admit most spearates sound superior to AVRs, but AVRs do offer bonuses in the $1500 price range.

What bonuses would those be? I can't really see a bonus in stuffing all audio processing and amplification into one box, as this is a bit of a compromise for convience sake.


Lower end separates usually offer less options, occupy more real estate, create more heat (if using multiple amps), force u to buy more cables and the need for more outlets.

First, the Outlaw is not a lower end product. Read the spec's, there is nothing low end about it from the DAC's, to the chips used for bass management and upsampling. . Secondly, my seperate amps generate no more heat than my receiver did when it drove all of my speakers. Good quality cables can be had for a VERY reasonable price, and the performance upgrade is well worth the price. As far as outlets, well out of one outlet in my house, I am powering all of my components via two power conditioners, with twelve plugs a piece.


You may hear a difference going from an AVR to separates, but i would bet most newbies cannot.

You would be very surprised what people can hear, newbie or not.


Anyway, i'm just trying to make a point. Heck, i love my $1200 (list) HK reciever for its convienence and performance, but i admit i want to go separates. When i research separates in that price range, I just don't see the advantage....and that may be my problem...i need to hear some good separates outside of a dealer.


Consider this Tarheel, I paid $750 total for over 10 channels of amplification, and $700 for my receiver which is now my pre-pro. 3 of those stereo amps are 150 WPC from 20-20khz, another is 165 WPC bridged to 540, and the last one is 120 WPC. All of them are VERY high quality used amps. Can you receiver that costs about $250 less than my investment boast a simular performance? I do not think so.

It is not all that complicated to setup seperates, certainly not as complex as you are making it bro.

[mixadude]

Digital mixers do not include power amps, and are usually alot larger than a receiver.True enough, but they do include processing that would take several 8' racks and a ton of wire to accomplish on an analog desk that's usually much bigger physically, and they do it cheaper with far lower noise and better coherancy.

Sure, if I had a theatre and unlimited space and resources, I'd have separates and a patch bay, but I'd also be using real sound equipment. I guess I just don't get this HiFi wizzin contest stuff.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

True enough, but they do include processing that would take several 8' racks and a ton of wire to accomplish on an analog desk that's usually much bigger physically, and they do it cheaper with far lower noise and better coherancy.

We don't disagree here.


Sure, if I had a theatre and unlimited space and resources, I'd have separates and a patch bay, but I'd also be using real sound equipment. I guess I just don't get this HiFi wizzin contest stuff.

You do not need alot of space or money to do seperates. You could either get a pre-pro and a five, six, or seven channel amp, or you could buy a pre-pro and three stereo power amps. Neither of these two options take up tremendous amounts of space. You should know that!!

[mazdamanic]

That's ludicrous, ever see a digital mixer?

Electricity and Electronics - ever studied that?

[mixadude]

We don't disagree here...
You do not need alot of space or money to do seperates. You could either get a pre-pro and a five, six, or seven channel amp, or you could buy a pre-pro and three stereo power amps. Neither of these two options take up tremendous amounts of space. You should know that!!Yeah, I suppose. I still like my new flagship receiver, vintage speakers and servo subs just fine though.

I'm kinda out of the loop in HiFi, I used to sell the stuff over 30 years ago while I was majoring in electronics. Now I do PA and/or TV, as mixer and/or system engineer, either audio or video. That's why I hang around here, to catch up on HiFi, so thanks for your indulgence and informative posts. :)

[Tarheel_]

man, i wish i knew how to do those fancy quote sections....

not sure why i've been put in a corner with the old AVR at my side, but since i have...here goes...

i may have blinked or something, but when did Outlaw put everyone on their payroll? I never mentioned Outlaw specifically nor have i ever seen an Outlaw in person or on horse. So why is everyone pushing this company so hard. Sure, everyone likes to find a 'steal', but come on guys holster those pistols.

Sure spearates can be easy to setup, but how many people know about separates.They know BB and CC and Tweeter where AVRs rule. The guy is in bama and selection is short for hi-fi.


"You would be very surprised what people can hear, newbie or not. " True, very true.

OK, so you paid $1450 for your setup. Well, my AVR was $1200 list, but I didn't pay that amount....i bought it as a store demo for $550 or $575 (can't remember). So add your two power conditioners, extra cable and do the math. That's quite a difference in price i'd say.


Now that is said, i really don't want to be painted as 'AVR guy'. I'm just trying to stick up for the little component that can. Hey, without the AVR most people would never experience HT or join this kickin board.

anyway, wish we were sitting around a table..i'd buy everyone a round. Cheers!.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

man, i wish i knew how to do those fancy quote sections....

Simple enough man. Put brackets [] on each side of the word quote. At the end of your sentence put [/quote]. The should do the trick.


not sure why i've been put in a corner with the old AVR at my side, but since i have...here goes...

We not treating you like a subwoofer!!


i may have blinked or something, but when did Outlaw put everyone on their payroll? I never mentioned Outlaw specifically nor have i ever seen an Outlaw in person or on horse. So why is everyone pushing this company so hard. Sure, everyone likes to find a 'steal', but come on guys holster those pistols.

I guess because their products are a VERY good value, and are very well built. Where else can you find a pre-pro this fully featured for $1099? Gotta keep my pistol out thought, Nick may be hangin around here.




Sure spearates can be easy to setup, but how many people know about separates.They know BB and CC and Tweeter where AVRs rule. The guy is in bama and selection is short for hi-fi.

Well Tarheel, they'll never learn about them until we mention them. Ebay knows no boudaries, they'll ship just about anywhere. If you don't tell people about this outlet, then nobody will really know. Knowledge is power.



OK, so you paid $1450 for your setup. Well, my AVR was $1200 list, but I didn't pay that amount....i bought it as a store demo for $550 or $575 (can't remember). So add your two power conditioners, extra cable and do the math. That's quite a difference in price i'd say.

Didn't pay for the power conditioners, I rescued them from my station. One of the maintainence engineers at the station I work was going to give them away, I saw them first, and nabbed them. Cables total cost for the entire system was $60. Bought my cable from a co-worker who get high quality cable for cheap. Still, I would believe that there is a performance difference that offsets that cost difference. The point I am making is that going the seperates route does not necessarily have to be expense. Doing a little homework, and patience goes along way.





Okay, you point is well taken. I admire you for sticking up for the little avr AVR that could, and did.

anyway, wish we were sitting around a table..i'd buy everyone a round. Cheers!.

[Yoda]

All right, I LOVE ALL THE HELP....YOU GUYS ARE FABULOUS !!!

My old man is paying for all this, and he WILL NOT let me buy prime pieces of EBAY. Just has a lack of trust. He doesn't mind reputable online companies. Like I said, I'm from Bama and even though we have agreat college football team, we don't have a lot of choice with high end stuff, like separates. This guys suggested a company called NAD and said it was superior to Integra. Any of you guys able to confirm this?? I was looking at either the T773 or T763 (http://www.nadelectronics.com/av_receivers/index.htm).

What do you guys think....better than Integra?

I would LOVE to get separates; however life has its way of getting in the way. It just seems too idealistic to get separates at the time. The old man has some limitations and I go to stick to them. Plus, I've been burnt before on Ebay.

AGAIN ....THANK YOU ALL

[JonW]

So most of you here seem to be very much in favor of seperates. (Sorry Tarheel.) For the receiver I've been thinking about, the Arcam AVR300 ($2000), I've read where a lot people say it sounds as good as most pre pros. (e.g., if you use the pre outs, etc.) True? If so, then wouldn't this receiver be a pretty obvious choice? You're getting a really good pre pro (supposedly) as well as some power from an internal amp (which can be used until you step up to bigger amps or even just for the rear speakers, etc.). Am I missing something here?

[Yoda]

How does ARCAM compare to the ones I mentioned in my last post (NAD and Integra)?

[N. Abstentia]

So most of you here seem to be very much in favor of seperates. (Sorry Tarheel.) For the receiver I've been thinking about, the Arcam AVR300 ($2000), I've read where a lot people say it sounds as good as most pre pros. (e.g., if you use the pre outs, etc.) True? If so, then wouldn't this receiver be a pretty obvious choice? You're getting a really good pre pro (supposedly) as well as some power from an internal amp (which can be used until you step up to bigger amps or even just for the rear speakers, etc.). Am I missing something here?

You're not missing anything, the only flaw I see with that plan is the money. Why spend $2000 on a receiver then $1000 on an external amp so you can abandon the internal amp? Why not get the $2000 Outlaw combo and get equal sound, more flexibility, and $1000 in your pocket?

[Yoda]

Again, I live in ALABAMA, USA. Where is an authorized dealer that sells Arcam AVR300. I onlt see one in the entire USA on their website??

[JonW]

You're not missing anything, the only flaw I see with that plan is the money. Why spend $2000 on a receiver then $1000 on an external amp so you can abandon the internal amp? Why not get the $2000 Outlaw combo and get equal sound, more flexibility, and $1000 in your pocket?

I see what you're saying. But would the Outlaw combo really sound as good as the Arcam? It's tough to ever get them side by side and do a comparison.

You probably don't need to go buy an amp for the Arcam. I have heard it and it does sound quite good as is.

If we assume, for the moment, that the Outlaw and Arcam do sound the same...
Where the Outlaw combo would be preferable is that when the pre pro becomes obsolete, you still have the amps to use with your next pre pro. For the Arcam, however, you might need a whole new receiver (or make the move to a pre pro + amps).

One way I've been thinking of the Arcam is that it's a pre pro with a decent amp. You might still want to add an amp some day, to help out the front speakers. But the internal amp should be plenty good for the center and rear speakers. So then you're into 2 channel amps, rather than needing many 2 channel amps for fronts, rears, centers or even one 5 or 7 channel amp with less power to the fronts (for a given amount of money).

Ugh... receiver or seperates... I keep going back and forth...

[Yoda]

Quickly again: Again, I live in ALABAMA, USA. Where is an authorized dealer that sells Arcam AVR300. I onlt see one in the entire USA on their website?

ALSO:

Does anyone know how much Arcam FMJ P7 & FMJ V8 would cost. Brand New with warranty?

[N. Abstentia]

I would imagine you'll have to drive to Atlanta or Dallas to find an Arcam dealer, I don't know. I've never seen one myself.

JonW brings up an interesting point about replacing just the preamp when it becomes obsolete instead of having to replace an entire receiver. I don't know about the Arcam receiver, but the Outlaw is upgradeable. Obsolescence will not be a factor for many many many years. The only thing I'd like to see it have is HDMI, but that's so flaky right now I can understand why they avoided it. DVI should be just fine.

[N. Abstentia]

Not sure where you are in AL, Yoda (Degobah, maybe?) but here are all the Arcam dealers within 150 miles of Talladega. Like I said..road trip!

http://www.audiophilesystems.com/BullseyePro/search.asp?ZipSearchSubmit=1&Admin=&ZipCode=35160&Radius=150&Categories=32

And prices according to Arcam:
FMJ P7 = $4500
FMJ P8 = $5000

[Yoda]

Well, I'm running the Jamo E770 in the front, E750 in the back, one center in the front and another in the back, with the E& SUB and an old Infinity PSW 12 sub. Would the Arcam AVR 250 or 300 be advised. The 250 fits better in my price range. The speakers are 6 ohm. What do you think?

[N. Abstentia]

Well me personally...I couldn't justify spending $1600 on a reciever that doesn't have either HDMI or DVI inputs..the Arcam has neither. Is that a show stopper? No, not at all. But the minute you get a new DVD player with a DVI or HDMI output you'll wish you had inputs for it, and it would be easy to deal with the loss if you had spent $500..but $1600?

[Yoda]

Well, In my case, I'm doing a DLP front projector. So I will run an HDMI from the dvd player to projector, and Optical cable to receiver. No need for DVI or HDMI.

[N. Abstentia]

Hmm..just keep in mind that since you're bypassing the receiver's video inputs, you'll need to run a seperate line from the receiver to the projector so you can set it up..unless you've got another TV you can hook it to. Composite or s-video will work fine, just wanted to remind you that you will need it!

[Yoda]

Yup, have a 25 footer cable going from the proj. to the receiver. Thanks anyways.

[N. Abstentia]

Cool. Being in the process of installing a projector myself in a new construction I'm running every possible cable I might ever need to the projector. Nothing worse than getting through with sheetrock and paint then realizing you don't have the right cable in the wall :)

[Yoda]

Which projector? I'm using the Optoma H78DC3. Has a 4000:1 contrast ratio. Let me ask you, is it really hard to mount this thing properly if you know exactly what the throw distance is and are comfortable juggling the projector and mount on a ladder.

What about calibration?

[N. Abstentia]

Shouldn't be too bad if you have a good mount. I have the Optoma H31 with the Cheif RPC mount which is nice. It's got 2 parts, one part goes in the ceiling and one part goes on the projector. The ceiling part is small and easy to work with and once you get it mounted you just slide the entire projector assembly onto it and tighten 3 thumb screws and you're done. It also is fully adjustable once you get it up there so you can add some front/rear tilt, side/side tilt, and yaw. It's hard to get it wrong with this mount!

I haven't gotten to the calibration part yet, just the screen testing phase but it shouldn't be too hard.

[topspeed]

I think the decision to go for separates vs. AVR is a personal decision. It's going to come down to how seriously someone takes this little hobby of ours. Owning both separates and an AVR, I think separates are great for music and an AVR is more than adequate for HT purposes. Sure, a fancy pre/pro could be justified for multi-channel hi-rez, but let's be honest here, there ain't a helluva lot of software in the first place! For the OP, an AVR will make life a lot easier. Coming from 2 channel separates, the first time I looked at the back of an AVR, I clutched my chest screaming, "It's the big one, Elizabeth! I'm comin' baby!!" FWIW, Denon's new 3806 is supposed to have HDMI/DVI switching, although it still lacks balanced outputs (can anybody hear the difference?).

I dunno. It seems like audiophiles are too quick to dismiss AVR's without considering the application.

[JonW]

I dunno. It seems like audiophiles are too quick to dismiss AVR's without considering the application.

Yeah, I'd prefer seperates for the improvement in sound quality over an AVR. But I'm not really willing to pony up $5,000 for the good seperates at this time. If you can get decent seperates for around $2,000 that sound better (or the same) than a good $2,000 AVR like the Arcam, I'd go that way. From my reading, it seems like $2,000 is a bit of a fuzzy range- good AVR's and low end seperates. With little comparisons of the two options to grasp onto. Idunno...

[Lexmark3200]

What bothers me is.....are these $6,000 Denon/Onkyo etc. "flagship" receivers REALLY worth that money? Are they putting out the 170 watts x 7 or whatever they're advertising they are?

[Geoffcin]

What bothers me is.....are these $6,000 Denon/Onkyo etc. "flagship" receivers REALLY worth that money? Are they putting out the 170 watts x 7 or whatever they're advertising they are?

And they usually exceed the specs, as opposed to the lower end units where there's a lot of fudging going on.

[Lexmark3200]

And they usually exceed the specs, as opposed to the lower end units where there's a lot of fudging going on.

I know in the lower end models they "fudge" those wattage numbers a bit (so the real test is if it powers someone's listening room good enough FOR THEIR purposes not to look at the wattage numbers), but is that really true that with high-end flagship products, the specs are actually EXCEEDED? Meaning if Denon claims on their flagship receiver that it pumps out 170 watts x 7, it's actually putting out more?

[Geoffcin]

I know in the lower end models they "fudge" those wattage numbers a bit (so the real test is if it powers someone's listening room good enough FOR THEIR purposes not to look at the wattage numbers), but is that really true that with high-end flagship products, the specs are actually EXCEEDED? Meaning if Denon claims on their flagship receiver that it pumps out 170 watts x 7, it's actually putting out more?

But I've seen tests done where the HK flagship receiver delivered over 320 watts in to mains before clipping. That's big power, and allows for totally uncompressed dynamics.

[Lexmark3200]

So there's actually an increase in stereo mode output on these flagship models?

[Lexmark3200]

So what would you say the right way to go would be if someone HAD five or six grand to spend----would you recommend these flagship receivers for that money, or would you lean them towards separates ---- or perhaps HIGH END receiver models at that point from the likes of NAD, Integra, etc?

[Geoffcin]

So there's actually an increase in stereo mode output on these flagship models?

But the flagship models have huge power supplies, so the can slew a lot more current when called upon. And not just in stereo mode.

[topspeed]

So what would you say the right way to go would be if someone HAD five or six grand to spend----would you recommend these flagship receivers for that money, or would you lean them towards separates ---- or perhaps HIGH END receiver models at that point from the likes of NAD, Integra, etc?
It depends on what you want to do. The Denon 5805 has earned the rep as the Big Daddy of flagship AVR's with sound quality to rival separates, yet this beast can drive two different 5.1 rigs at the same time! Consider how much that would cost if you were to buy separates for two rigs.

Ouch.

[N. Abstentia]

It depends on what you want to do. The Denon 5805 has earned the rep as the Big Daddy of flagship AVR's with sound quality to rival separates, yet this beast can drive two different 5.1 rigs at the same time! Consider how much that would cost if you were to buy separates for two rigs.

Ouch.

At first I was like 'Wow..you've got a point if you want to drive two seperate 5.1 rigs...' but then I did indeed consider how much that would cost:

1 Denon 5805 = $6000 that rivals seperates

or

2 Outlaw 900 Preamp $1100 each
2 5 channel amps from B&K/Rotel/Adcom/Acurus $600 each (I'll go on the high end) that IS seperates.

So to run dual 5.1 rigs you could get 1 $6000 receiver or two preamps and two amps for $3400. Nearly half the price, and you'd have SEPERATES all around.

Give me the seperates at half price, personally. Two totally independant systems and you're not bound to the limitations of that one receiver. And please don't use 'but space is a consideration' as an arguement. If you've got room for two totally seperate 5.1 speaker systems, you've got 17" of space to put a preamp/amp rig.

[mixadude]

Yeah that's a better deal if that's what you want. If I wanted two 5.1 rooms I'd want different systems in them anyhow, with maybe some tie lines between em.

My system plays TV 95% of the time anyhow like now; I'm not even paying attention to it. I went with a big receiver, it's just easier and more compact. As far as the SQ it's pretty good, but I guess I'm just not that great a home listener to care beyond what I have. I have some really big amps, the extra heat just isn't worth it to me, even if the SQ gets a modicum better.

[MyThingIs23InchesFlacid!]

Ain't no dilema HOLMES - get yo' a---s----s a Denon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lexmark3200]

Now some observations about all this if I may because this has become a very interesting and popular matter of subject for some time around enthusiast/audiophile circles....

It seems to me the only real benefit those 6 thousand dollar flagship receivers offer (because the $500 models all decode every audio soundtrack you would POSSIBLY need right now---DTS, DTS ES, DD, DD EX, etc albeit with less power output, sure) are these aforementioned "dual room" powering situtaions which I would PERSONALLY have no need for whatsoever-----my philosophy is, you have guests over that are watching a film in 5.1 surround? They stay in the MAIN home theater room with you-----no need to power two 5.1 systems in a house as it seems kind of ludicrous to me; I mean, if you have a HT in a secondary room, why not power THAT system with another $500 good unit from Onkyo or Denon or perhaps Yamaha? To feed two 5.1 systems AND allow for stereo listening in another room, plus all the other internet gizmos these flagship models offer is just too much and overkill in my opinion.

Yet, that still leaves us with this dilemma, folks: once you start going into the $4,000, $5,000 and $6,000 (which is what I believe the new Denon flagship receiver sells for in Crutchfield if I am not mistaken) range, when you have that kind of cash to spend.....is a RECEIVER the way to go at that point? Besides all the multiroom powering, what are these models offering for six thousand dollars over the ones we can buy for $500 that feel very sturdy and are made well (depending upon who they come from-----not talking JVC or Kenwood or Sony of course)? Are these units REALLY putting out 170 WATTS X 7 or X 8 or whatever they are advertising? THAT'S the essential question here.....how do we know when to step up into separates? Would a multichannel amp and home theater preamp make sense at that price point?

[GMichael]

Now some observations about all this if I may because this has become a very interesting and popular matter of subject for some time around enthusiast/audiophile circles....

It seems to me the only real benefit those 6 thousand dollar flagship receivers offer (because the $500 models all decode every audio soundtrack you would POSSIBLY need right now---DTS, DTS ES, DD, DD EX, etc albeit with less power output, sure) are these aforementioned "dual room" powering situtaions which I would PERSONALLY have no need for whatsoever-----my philosophy is, you have guests over that are watching a film in 5.1 surround? They stay in the MAIN home theater room with you-----no need to power two 5.1 systems in a house as it seems kind of ludicrous to me; I mean, if you have a HT in a secondary room, why not power THAT system with another $500 good unit from Onkyo or Denon or perhaps Yamaha? To feed two 5.1 systems AND allow for stereo listening in another room, plus all the other internet gizmos these flagship models offer is just too much and overkill in my opinion.

Yet, that still leaves us with this dilemma, folks: once you start going into the $4,000, $5,000 and $6,000 (which is what I believe the new Denon flagship receiver sells for in Crutchfield if I am not mistaken) range, when you have that kind of cash to spend.....is a RECEIVER the way to go at that point? Besides all the multiroom powering, what are these models offering for six thousand dollars over the ones we can buy for $500 that feel very sturdy and are made well (depending upon who they come from-----not talking JVC or Kenwood or Sony of course)? Are these units REALLY putting out 170 WATTS X 7 or X 8 or whatever they are advertising? THAT'S the essential question here.....how do we know when to step up into separates? Would a multichannel amp and home theater preamp make sense at that price point?

Maybe.

That seems to be the final answer. Did you look at the link I started? (receivers vs. separates.)

In my opinion separates would be better at that price point. Most people seem to agree, but not everyone.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13424

[Lexmark3200]

Maybe.

That seems to be the final answer. Did you look at the link I started? (receivers vs. separates.)

In my opinion separates would be better at that price point. Most people seem to agree, but not everyone.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=13424

Yes G, Im going to look that link over and take the conversation to that more appropriate thread. Thank you!