For all you B&W fans...

[20to20K]

...or the B&W bashers whose gripe is that they're overpriced!

Less than 24 hours left on these N803's that retail for $5000 a pair.
There may be a mad rush on them at the end but a this posting
they're going for $1200 for the pair.

I'm thinking about them myself...how do I sneak them past the wife?

Hmmmm.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/B-W-Nautilus-803-speakers-in-Light-Cherry_W0QQitemZ5803511256QQcategoryZ73353QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem

[N. Abstentia]

Don't forget to add a few hundred for shipping....

[paul_pci]

Smart Ass!

[20to20K]

Smart Ass!

...But I'm less than 75 miles away...I'd just pick them up myself.

For someone else...they WOULD be a couple C notes to safely ship so
you should definitely incorporate that into the cost.

BTW...I looked again and noticed it was only a 1day listing. That explains the low
price at this point. You can expect to see a mad rush during the last couple of hours on these bad boys. You guys shouldn't even bother watching... :rolleyes:

[pelly3s]

something seems a little fishy about that auction. I wouldnt trust it.

[20to20K]

something seems a little fishy about that auction. I wouldnt trust it.

Why would you have only a single day listing (Sunday at that) for a speaker of this quality and condition? Too hot too handle? If you were to bid I'd ask where he purchased them and whether he could provide the original reciept (for warranty reasons of course).

[Florian]

Well as you can see he uses some decent equipment and the highest reason why people sell such a product in such a short time is because its not to their likes. Speakers only develop their qualitys once you have them home and listen to more than 3tracks at a dealer. But this is not unusual since the used market is full of B&W.

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

Seller is asking you to contact him outside of ebay for payment options, :eek: ! I have seen that one before. :p

[theaudiohobby]

Well as you can see he uses some decent equipment and the highest reason why people sell such a product in such a short time is because its not to their likes. Speakers only develop their qualitys once you have them home and listen to more than 3tracks at a dealer. -- snip-- -Flo

With all due respect, If you apply these comments to yourself, we would hear less generalisations about box speakers from you. Or have you tried all the good ones at home :) ?

[Florian]

No because all box speakers have things in common. A box, different drivers ;-)
Besides there are box speakers i like, just not many. I like some Horns, Electrostatics, Planar Magnetics. But i think that this person heard them at a dealer believed the adverts and found out that the speaker is not to his liking and thats why he sells them. And since the used market is covered with B&W he cant ask for much ;-)

-Flo

[topspeed]

Geez Flo, you're so biased you can't even see a scam for what it is...a scam. This has nothing to do with the speakers. They could have used Apogee's, but why? There isn't nearly as much market knowledge of this brand as there is B&W. You can't hook a sucker if they don't want the product. B&W enjoys one of the highest residuals of all speaker manufacturers precisely because the popular consensus is that they are a hi-end speaker manufacturer, whether or not you choose to agree with this or not has no bearing whatsoever.

[Florian]

Yeah the good stuff usually dies first. Its normal, you dont see many Apogees since their owners dont sell them. Many of us own more than 2 pairs, they are collectables :-)

Ofcourse i am biased, and i never said otherwise.

But why does he sell the speaker so cheaply, after such a short time?

[Woochifer]

Yeah the good stuff usually dies first. Its normal, you dont see many Apogees since their owners dont sell them. Many of us own more than 2 pairs, they are collectables :-)

Well, considering that not a whole lot of Apogees got sold in the first place, while B&W has been consistently among the top 5 volume speaker manufacturers in the world, that's one reason you see more B&Ws on the second hand market. Ribbon speakers are not exactly known for their durability either, and Apogee has not made any loudspeakers since the mid-90s.


But why does he sell the speaker so cheaply, after such a short time?

As others have told you, because this is a SCAM! The seller's phishing for user account information. What better way than to offer a popular in-demand speaker for far less than its prevailing market value?

[Florian]

Well ok then ;-)

By the way Apogee was very popular and there are many Apogees out there. And to the durability.......20 years and still going strong! Not as many as B&W, Dynaudio etc...but they were never made for the general public in the first place.

[theaudiohobby]

Well ok then ;-)
- snip -
but they were never made for the general public in the first place.

This is so funny.... :) , I thought Apogee Speakers had a dealer network.. ;), even sent samples to Stereophile and exhibited at audio shows, but they were not made for the general public ;)

[Florian]

You know what i mean, they were and still are damned expensive, difficult to place, difficult to drive and difficult to fix in case something happens.

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

You know what i mean, they were and still are damned expensive, difficult to place, difficult to drive and difficult to fix in case something happens.

-Flo

so were (and still are) a couple others :) that fit the bill ;) , and your brief treatsie gives us a good entree on why they might not be as popular as you think "damned expensive, difficult to place, difficult to drive and difficult to fix in case something happens" are not qualities that stock a speaker's popularity ;) .

[Florian]

Thats why i always make a difference between a hobbyist and a perfectionist. If someone is looking for decent speaker that sounds ok than most all speakers will do. But if you want "real" sound in your room and seek perfection than you have to make sacrifices. Almost no dealer can place these beasts right yet alone display the electronics necesarry. My friend drives his DIVAS with over 60000$ worth of electronics. I run more than 14000$ worth of electronics. This is in a dedicated room wich is optimized acoustically.

Yes they are extremely picky and almost noone can afford to buy them yet alone place them. But these points are not important if your on the quest for perfection.

I just come from a different standpoint. I seek perfection not a value or cute speaker. And i like many boxes and like box systems from other members. I moderate the gallery and in fact erase bad comments against boxes, i rate them highly. But i never found a box that can come close to reality exept the Avalon Eidolon Diamond.

-Flo

[Florian]

Efficeny has nothing to do with the sound quality. Apogees are actually quite easy with decent equipment. There are only 2 models which are hard to drive since their impedance is aprox. 0.-1ohm. They dont require much power just a amp that can drop real current into the speakers.

Easy to drive and easy to place speakers have absolutly no meaning to good sound.

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

Thats why i always make a difference between a hobbyist and a perfectionist. If someone is looking for decent speaker that sounds ok than most all speakers will do. But if you want "real" sound in your room and seek perfection than you have to make sacrifices. Almost no dealer can place these beasts right yet alone display the electronics necesarry. My friend drives his DIVAS with over 60000$ worth of electronics. I run more than 14000$ worth of electronics. This is in a dedicated room wich is optimized acoustically. Hmm...and what is perfection and 'real' sound ? Amost no dealer can place them right or afford the equipment to drive them :eek: , what a recommendation ;) !, Good acoustic treatment is necessary requirement for optimal sound not perfection :)


Yes they are extremely picky and almost noone can afford to buy them yet alone place them. But these points are not important if your on the quest for perfection.
-Flo
A difficult to drive speaker is not necessary for excellent sound, a well designed speaker is. :)

[Florian]

Efficeny has nothing to do with the sound quality. Apogees are actually quite easy with decent equipment. There are only 2 models which are hard to drive since their impedance is aprox. 0.-1ohm. They dont require much power just a amp that can drop real current into the speakers.

Easy to drive and easy to place speakers have absolutly no meaning to good sound.

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

Efficeny has nothing to do with the sound quality.

I said a well-designed speaker not high Efficiency speaker


Apogees are actually quite easy with decent equipment. There are only 2 models which are hard to drive since their impedance is aprox. 0.-1ohm. They dont require much power just a amp that can drop real current into the speakers.

Your are contradicting yourself :) ;)



Easy to drive and easy to place speakers have absolutly no meaning to good sound.
-Flo

Neither does difficult to drive and difficult to place ;)

[Florian]

I said a well-designed speaker not high Efficiency speaker

Well designed can be seen upon hearing it. There are many different designs out there and a few have held true for over 35 years such as the planar ribbon drivers.

Your are contradicting yourself :) ;)

No i am not, there are differences. Some speakers require a lot of WATTS some require CURRENT. Some require both. Electrostatics want current why Maggies want Watts. Apogees need stable amps.


Neither does difficult to drive and difficult to place ;)

But some speakers only show their qualities when they are setup 100% right and matched. Apogees are such speakers, and B&W's, AN etc... are not that critical. This is why noone can judge a speaker such as these are in a 3 Track listening session.

[theaudiohobby]

I said a well-designed speaker not high Efficiency speaker

Well designed can be seen upon hearing it. There are many different designs out there and a few have held true for over 35 years such as the planar ribbon drivers.

So have many other designs, and some of them are still in business, still making good speakers.


Your are contradicting yourself :) ;)
No i am not, there are differences. Some speakers require a lot of WATTS some require CURRENT. Some require both. Electrostatics want current why Maggies want Watts. Apogees need stable amps.

Seeing that you are backpedalling...I will spare you the agony ;) , however every speaker requires well-matched amplifier sound their best.



Neither does difficult to drive and difficult to place ;)

But some speakers only show their qualities when they are setup 100% right and matched. Apogees are such speakers, and B&W's, AN etc... are not that critical


All speakers sound their best where they are well setup and matched, A speaker that sounds good even when not well setup or matched is more flexible and that is a strength not a weakness.


This is why noone can judge a speaker such as these are in a 3 Track listening session.

If it is well setup and matched you can, at least it will give you a taster of what a speaker can do, that is the whole purpose of shows and exhibitions, to pique your interest.

[Florian]

Instead of quoting me and twisting the points why dont you contact me over MSN (overture3@hotmail.com) and we can chat about it. I can even call you and i can tell you exactly why this box vs. planars is senseless. You are welcome to come on over like many have before and experience a world reference and what the definition of "real" is. :-)
Even if you choose not to, it wont hurt since you dont know what your missing ;-)

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

Twisting your words..you are so funny...enjoy the halo of your rig..;)

[RGA]

You most certainly can tell if something sounds good or not within three tracks --

Flo -- you hate Bose right most of us do -- Did you need to listen for 4000 hours before you could TELL it was not very good -- it should take a person one song to tell if it's going to fall into the good camp or the camp you don't want. That does not mean you can tell every subtle iss with the speaker in 3 tracks but if it's three good tracks of piano instrumental/orchestral and vocal it can say much. I have heard a few speakers do these very well incidentally and fall apart at other things and have heard speakers do far better at amplified rock - there is vocal thoughout though.

As for the idiotic notion of speakers lasting a long time -- well yes panels have been around 35 years -- cone speakers have been around what since 1925? And while you try to imply that Panels are better because they;ve been around for a long time -- have the SAME panels been around that long? The K-horn has been around close to 50 years and it's basically the exact same speaker it always was and it CONTINUES to sell. I like the K-horn but it's not PERFECT and neither is a panel and neither is Audio Note (because I know it will be addressed from you so I'll head it off first).

The K-horn to this day that many other speakers just don;t accomplish and it is a royal pain to set up and drive properly -- it can sound shouty and highly uneven --soemthing that can with a significant amount of effort largely be resolved to the point where it's a rather smooth quite well balanced sounding speaker. I've heard it in just two set-ups in my time.

All of the big panel makers either went belly-up or changed and improved their panels (or from what I understand from many Quad owners) the new Quads have went to appearances over substance which is why the ESL 57 is widely considered the very best sounding Quad ever built. And it interests me largely because the original Sugden A21a 10 watt class A amp was a very popular match for this panel - so that means it's not a power pig. Quad is now not a one man vision operation though so that may be why many of the old Quad owners are less than pleased with the new ones.

Perfect sound? Please :rolleyes:

[Woochifer]

Instead of quoting me and twisting the points why dont you contact me over MSN (overture3@hotmail.com) and we can chat about it. I can even call you and i can tell you exactly why this box vs. planars is senseless. You are welcome to come on over like many have before and experience a world reference and what the definition of "real" is. :-)
Even if you choose not to, it wont hurt since you dont know what your missing ;-)

"Real" is what's actually real -- i.e. the actual instrument, voice, or sound event. Everything else is a reproduction, and my own experiences with the Apogee Full Range and Duettas did not bring to mind the terms "world reference" or "real" whenever I heard them.

[theaudiohobby]

I will admit it, I have never head one but will not bother, there are other panel speakers that suit my taste and have less onerous operating requirements. Strikes me as odd a speaker (the top models I think) whose claim to fame is that it deeps below 1 ohm, a masochistic streak, yikes :D, I can sidestep that with zero penalty. :).

[Florian]

I have never imlpied that they are better because they have been around for a long time. Fact is, and you can read the reviews that the big Apogees where always tested as the worlds best. And they are only as good as the electronics. If you heard a Fullrange (which is very rare) and didnt like it than its either the electronics or you like a colored sound. Which if you have Maggies or boxes, like. Easy as that.

What sounds real. That shouldnt be a question. Its easy. If i play a Violin (my friends GF plays a 4 Million Dollar Stradovari in the Zurich Symphoni Prchestra and if she plays in the room and we record that and play it on the system and it sounds the same than that is REAL. Something boxes will never reach.

But nevermind, i tried to help you all. But go ahead and dumpb 1000's into worthless boxes. I dont really care anymore. Same as the comment from RGA that they are soo cheap to make :( Just no clue.

Its not difficult to drive a 1ohm load and there are many amps that can do it.

[Florian]

As for my closing words, you guys mix up "quantity" and "quality".

[theaudiohobby]

As for my closing words, you guys mix up "quantity" and "quality".

ha..ha...from the AR purveyor of quality sound. :) ;) :)

[theaudiohobby]

I have never imlpied that they are better because they have been around for a long time. Fact is, and you can read the reviews that the big Apogees where always tested as the worlds best. And they are only as good as the electronics. If you heard a Fullrange (which is very rare) and didnt like it than its either the electronics or you like a colored sound. Which if you have Maggies or boxes, like. Easy as that.

A reality check (http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/reviews.htm) from Apogeespeakers.com. Even back then, there was no consensus.

[topspeed]

Fact is, and you can read the reviews that the big Apogees where always tested as the worlds best. And they are only as good as the electronics. If you heard a Fullrange (which is very rare) and didnt like it than its either the electronics or you like a colored sound. Which if you have Maggies or boxes, like. Easy as that. I remember when I was your age...my ego was out of control too. I think it's natural for kids in their early 20's to be cocky as hell. I have to remind myself of this whenever I read your posts, although you're pushing my (and apparently others) patience.


What sounds real. That shouldnt be a question. Its easy. If i play a Violin (my friends GF plays a 4 Million Dollar Stradovari in the Zurich Symphoni Prchestra and if she plays in the room and we record that and play it on the system and it sounds the same than that is REAL. Something boxes will never reach. Interesting. This article (http://audioworld.com/cgi-bin/FrameIt.cgi?Url=http://www.digitalprosound.com/2004/01_jan/news/vonschweikert_ces.htm&ConfigFile=FrameIt.cfg) on Von Schweikert's famous VR11 demo at CES begs to differ. I'm curious, when you play back your friend's uber violin on your rig, did you use equal equipment to Albert's? The gear utilized for the recording and playback of his demo was absolutely SOTA. If you didn't, you have no idea what you heard. Reality is perception. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no global reality. Someday you'll realize this.


But nevermind, i tried to help you all. But go ahead and dumpb 1000's into worthless boxes. I dont really care anymore. Same as the comment from RGA that they are soo cheap to make :( Just no clue.

Its not difficult to drive a 1ohm load and there are many amps that can do it.You're idea of "help" is to slam anybody that doesn't own what you deem "worthy." Thank God you're not a doctor.

[Woochifer]

I have never imlpied that they are better because they have been around for a long time. Fact is, and you can read the reviews that the big Apogees where always tested as the worlds best. And they are only as good as the electronics. If you heard a Fullrange (which is very rare) and didnt like it than its either the electronics or you like a colored sound. Which if you have Maggies or boxes, like. Easy as that.

"Fact is"? Citing reviews now constitutes "fact"? You mean those very magazines reviews that you say are "supported by advertising"?

You can make the electronics argument all you want, but the Apogees I've heard never sounded all that special, and that was listening through several different front end rigs. The tonal characteristics were consistent, with their own coloration.


What sounds real. That shouldnt be a question. Its easy. If i play a Violin (my friends GF plays a 4 Million Dollar Stradovari in the Zurich Symphoni Prchestra and if she plays in the room and we record that and play it on the system and it sounds the same than that is REAL. Something boxes will never reach.

And "real" is something I've never heard from a planar speaker either. Then again, no reproduction of a sound event can fully recreate it, no matter what you're using.


But nevermind, i tried to help you all. But go ahead and dumpb 1000's into worthless boxes. I dont really care anymore. Same as the comment from RGA that they are soo cheap to make :( Just no clue.

You did not "help" anybody -- you simply presumed that your OPINION constitutes universal FACT, and that we are unqualified to differ from that perspective with our own ears because your ears and your reviewers are about FACT and ours are not. It does not "help" anybody when you tell us that we don't prefer planars because we don't know better or that the electronics we've heard planars playing through aren't good enough or that we prefer coloration or that we only know "quantity" and not "quality." The only person with "no clue" seems to be you because of your persistent intolerance of viewpoints and interpretations that don't square with your own, and all of these incessant presumptions that you know why we hear what we hear better than we do.

[StanleyMuso]

evangelists. By God, they have seen the light, and will do everything to convert everyone else to their point of view. And if you don't, you are not worthy of being saved. According to him, we are all in audio hell.

[RGA]

"we are all in audio hell"

Hey that's Audio Note's Line -- but at least they say "IF" you are..then...." :D