CD obsolete, vinyl not ?

[mystic]

According to an August 26 article by Yuki Noguchi in The Washinton Post online, an upcoming release on Warner Bros. Records by the rock band the Sun will be available on DVD, online, and on vinyl, but not on CD. The following quote is from the article: "The label expects the Sun to be the first of many artists to embrace a no-CD, video-only strategy. And that is part of a larger move away from the traditional album concept that some experts say is steering the CD the way of the hand-cranked gramophone."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/25/AR2005082501999.html

[Woochifer]

Who knows what the future holds, but this is surprising that someone would do without a CD release at this time. Quite a few observers feel that physical disc media for music delivery in general will eventually go away, with everything transitioning over to downloads in the future. Talk about eventually moving away from the traditional album package with 40 to 70 minutes worth of music has been ongoing for years.

Going to a no-CD release at this juncture, I have a feeling that something else would drive this particular decision, since the CD remains the primary format for music releases. One possible consideration for doing DVD and vinyl releases, but not CDs, would be that you can't rip MP3 files as readily from those formats. People who want a CD copy for themselves could still pay for download files and burn their own CDs.

Vinyl right now is a primarily a limited edition one-shot deal with newer releases -- the record company contracts with RTI or some other specialty pressing house and does one production run. Whatever gets pressed during that run represents the total supply, since record companies no longer maintain their own vinyl pressing facilities. I don't think it has anything to do with CD obsolescence and vinyl somehow surpassing it. Eventually, I think that will happen, but definitely not in the short term.

[ToddL]

Looking at it from music business side
a)DVD is not as easily pirated, and not many people will take the time to pirate DVD
b)People who like digital ipod and whatevers can buy online
c)Real rock fans prefer vinyl anyway
d) The business is desperate to make its money back and will try all sorts of crazy stuff
I think this is a business experiment rather than a musical one.

[Woochifer]

Looking at it from music business side
a)DVD is not as easily pirated, and not many people will take the time to pirate DVD

Agreed. No tools out there right now to easily rip audio tracks from DVDs. Plus, most people who have a home audio rig nowadays have a DVD player attached. Even if the content has no video content, it will still contain a PCM audio track. This might be a case like with DualDiscs and concert DVDs where a higher resolution PCM track is included.


b)People who like digital ipod and whatevers can buy online

If there are no CDs available to rip, then the downloading option might be more attractive.


c)Real rock fans prefer vinyl anyway

The sales figures don't support this. If I remember right, the hybrid CD/SACD reissue of Dark Side of the Moon alone sold more copies than all vinyl LPs combined for that year.


d) The business is desperate to make its money back and will try all sorts of crazy stuff
I think this is a business experiment rather than a musical one.

The only thing that's crazy IMO is the timing. It seems premature to me, but if this experiment with a no-CD release works, then you might see more of it. A few years from now, this pattern might indeed be more common.

[RGA]

But it's strange they would release it on vinyl? I bought Lucinda Williams on CD and found out that the LP has two extra songs on it. I bought Jewel "Pieces of You" which also has two extra songs on the LP. I caught that one and bought the LP.

Sade is one of my favorites and the British Pressing of the VInyl has an entirely different mix instrumental than does the cd. I also picked up some singles 12' of songs I have the CD version of and they've changed the instrumentals added length etc.

This example I have to admit to but on Roxette "Look Sharp" there is one more song on the CD than on the Vinyl...but the 12S of Dangerous is sonically vastly superior to either the LP or the CD is a far better version of the song to boot.

I have not bought many 12S or 45RPM but on my meger player they are vastly superior to either so far in my small sample size.

I find it funny that the second largest Music carrier in Canada has started back t selling LP at the retail outlet level.

I don't see cd leaving for a long while yet.

I worry though that the buying an artist's ALBUM will be leaving us for the top 40 hit of the week download. Artists often tie all their songs on an album for a unifying message. The downlad era will be the top 40 song skip the rest. I suppose RED in the Shawshank Redemption said it all "the world has got itself into a big hurry" and we need the instant gratification. I'm surprised we don't have chips in our ear connected to a cell phone and download the music right into our head without the need for any stereo equipment. And you all thought the Borg cortical implant was just sci-fi ---- They will assimilate us and Resistance is Futile.

[ToddL]

One more point vinyl has a "cool factor", where cassette is dead, and try uploading a vinyl onto your computer, it probably won't sound hot.
Also, where some cd's will still sell no matter what, downloads will still affect sales.
Note: Dark Side of the Moon is an album from the seventies-My point? Most Floyd fans are 30+ or are hardcore fans. The 30+ age group do not spend a lot of time downloading, and also have the money to buy c.d.'s. If you compare album sales of todays run in the mill pop group to that of any other generation I am willing to bet that today is suffering to some degree.

[Woochifer]

One more point vinyl has a "cool factor", where cassette is dead, and try uploading a vinyl onto your computer, it probably won't sound hot.
Also, where some cd's will still sell no matter what, downloads will still affect sales.
Note: Dark Side of the Moon is an album from the seventies-My point? Most Floyd fans are 30+ or are hardcore fans. The 30+ age group do not spend a lot of time downloading, and also have the money to buy c.d.'s. If you compare album sales of todays run in the mill pop group to that of any other generation I am willing to bet that today is suffering to some degree.

Vinyl does have a coolness and retro factor working in its favor, but it remains a niche market. My point about DSOTM is in response to your assessment that "real rock fans" prefer vinyl. That might be your assessment, but the sales figures for vinyl don't support that. During the pre-CD days, most of the people I knew weren't buying vinyl, they were buying cassettes so that they could play their music thru their portable devices. Same situation today, except that CDs can also play thru portable devices.

Album sales today are lagging because frankly there has not been anything new and compelling to emerge on the music scene for over a decade. The endless recycling of alternative and hip hop cliches today is not all that different from the tired dead end stadium rock that topped the charts in the early-80s during the recording industry's last major downturn. The creative spark was just as dead then as it is right now, and it's not coincidental that sales have suffered accordingly.

[Woochifer]

But it's strange they would release it on vinyl? I bought Lucinda Williams on CD and found out that the LP has two extra songs on it. I bought Jewel "Pieces of You" which also has two extra songs on the LP. I caught that one and bought the LP.

Plenty of new music gets released on vinyl, but they're done only on a limited basis and typically with only one production run at the time of release. Everything else is either aimed at the DJ market or audiophile rereleases. And just about everything on vinyl nowadays is produced as a limited edition.


Sade is one of my favorites and the British Pressing of the VInyl has an entirely different mix instrumental than does the cd. I also picked up some singles 12' of songs I have the CD version of and they've changed the instrumentals added length etc.

This example I have to admit to but on Roxette "Look Sharp" there is one more song on the CD than on the Vinyl...but the 12S of Dangerous is sonically vastly superior to either the LP or the CD is a far better version of the song to boot.

I have not bought many 12S or 45RPM but on my meger player they are vastly superior to either so far in my small sample size.

12" singles are generally tailored to the DJ market and optimized for club play, that's why they sound different. A guy I knew who did production work with remixing would purposely deemphasize some of the delay effects that got into the regular mix, because the 12" versions would get played in echoey bar and club settings. The shorter time lengths on most 12" singles also allow the mastering engineer to cut a wider groove, which means that they don't have to apply as much dynamic range compression or go with a lower level.


I find it funny that the second largest Music carrier in Canada has started back t selling LP at the retail outlet level.

I don't see cd leaving for a long while yet.

Most of the music retailers that I go to never dropped vinyl to begin with, but the new vinyl sections are still very small compared to the other formats.

I think the CD will stay in the short-term, but five years from now, the entire face of music distribution might be very different. For starters, the music industry wants to copy protect everything, and the CD is an open format, so they obviously want to move into other areas. Legal downloads have all kinds of encryption and copy protecting options available, and it looks like a lot of them will be tried out before the dust settles there. For disc collections, one possibility would be increasing the use of DVD-based music distribution for people who prefer to listen to their music at home, while everything else is download based. The advantage of using the DVD is that the album can use higher resolution than the CD, and include video as well as compressed multichannel tracks (and with 1.5K bitrate DTS, it can sound better than the CD tracks), and all of it is copy protected. That seems to be what the album in this thread is testing out.


I worry though that the buying an artist's ALBUM will be leaving us for the top 40 hit of the week download. Artists often tie all their songs on an album for a unifying message. The downlad era will be the top 40 song skip the rest. I suppose RED in the Shawshank Redemption said it all "the world has got itself into a big hurry" and we need the instant gratification. I'm surprised we don't have chips in our ear connected to a cell phone and download the music right into our head without the need for any stereo equipment. And you all thought the Borg cortical implant was just sci-fi ---- They will assimilate us and Resistance is Futile.

Problem is that most of these albums contain a lot of filler material, and that's been the complaint by music buyers -- that they have to pay $18 for a CD that might contain only one or two good songs. Listeners are already listening to only one or two songs and skipping the rest, and the whole turn to downloading is a sign that they're sick of paying so much money to do that. The pop album with a unified theme that ties together from one end to another is much more the exception than the rule.

[ToddL]

Album sales today are lagging because frankly there has not been anything new and compelling to emerge on the music scene for over a decade. The endless recycling of alternative and hip hop cliches today is not all that different from the tired dead end stadium rock that topped the charts in the early-80s during the recording industry's last major downturn. The creative spark was just as dead then as it is right now, and it's not coincidental that sales have suffered accordingly.[/QUOTE]

Good point.But there is still good new stuff coming out, but you won't find much of it on the radio or MTV. Alot of it is on Indie labels(non-coincidentally their sales are up), and a lot of these release vinyl. So I think major labels need their cages rattled to wake up. Maybe this is the problem.

[Woochifer]

Another point on albums versus individual song downloads. It's almost like returning pop music to its roots. The 45RPM single was the dominant form of music consumption until about the early-70s when there was a distinct trend towards thematically linked rock albums (and subsequently tailed off by the early-80s). Until that time, a lot of albums were nothing more than collections of singles. With the CD single basically a dead category, song downloads represent the modern day version of the old 45 singles.

[Woochifer]

Good point.But there is still good new stuff coming out, but you won't find much of it on the radio or MTV. Alot of it is on Indie labels(non-coincidentally their sales are up), and a lot of these release vinyl. So I think major labels need their cages rattled to wake up. Maybe this is the problem.

Agreed that there's always a lot of new and interesting music coming out with the indie labels, and also with underground club scenes. The reinvigorating effect with the major labels will occur whenever any of the new music coming out on indie labels strikes a chord with the audience. Thus far, we haven't really seen anything that has registered as profoundly as for example, the Seattle sound did in the early-90s. Those bands had been around the local club scene and indie labels since the mid-80s, but it did not hit critical mass until years later.

[StanleyMuso]

.
I think the CD will stay in the short-term, but five years from now, the entire face of music distribution might be very different.

The whole concept of distributing media on a spinning disk, whether film or music, is quite archaic and harks back to the idea entrenched in us from the very first records. I'm sure that the CD and then the DVD were developed only because no one was capable of thinking outside the square, least of all Joe Public. We are used to spinning disks, despite their fragility and likelyhood of accidental damage. I am sure that technically, it would have been possible to develop a small, robust device with no moving parts similar to a memory card, ages ago, which might even be capable of giving us high resolution video and sound. I began thinking about this not so long ago when a number of occurances spoilt my entertainment. First, several CDs and DVDs which were not used all that much somehow got damaged and needed resurrecting with an abrasive cream. Secondly, both a CD and DVD player became tempermental and either froze or skipped all over the place despite the fact that the disks in question were perfect and played perfectly on other machines. The same goes for my son's Sony Playstation - some damaged disks. However, an ancient machine which used solid state cartridges plays perfectly to this day.

So why do we persist with spinning disks? Is it for the very reason that they are likely to get damaged and we'll be forced to replace them? I suspect that if the manufacturers and software industry wanted to, the technology is already there to allow us to move away from disks and into small, robust solid state storage devices for the reproduction of entertaiment media. Any thoughts?

[Kaboom]

Every single protection system that has reached the market has gotten cracked, some within days. Even if its not possible to just rip out the tracks from a DVD, i'm sure it will be pretty soon.
Everything gets cracked. While we're here discussing DVD audio and stuff, there are kids sitting in front of the computer racking their brains and trying to crack the copy protection.
Eventually DVDs will be as easy to rip as CDs are.
heck, i have absolutely no problem copying DVD movies.

[Woochifer]

The same goes for my son's Sony Playstation - some damaged disks. However, an ancient machine which used solid state cartridges plays perfectly to this day.

So why do we persist with spinning disks? Is it for the very reason that they are likely to get damaged and we'll be forced to replace them? I suspect that if the manufacturers and software industry wanted to, the technology is already there to allow us to move away from disks and into small, robust solid state storage devices for the reproduction of entertaiment media. Any thoughts?

I think it just comes down to cost. Solid state storage devices are more durable and work faster, but comparing memory cards with DVD drives, the DVD drives still hold a lot more data and cost less than USB and other flash memory devices. With video game cartridges, the last system to use solid state carts was the Nintendo 64 and the successor Game Cube system went to optical discs.

Consider that the PS2 and Xbox are both DVD-based. That means up to about 4.7 GB of data on a single-layer disc. DVD disc media costs less than $1 each, and the games cost $20-$50. Getting that much data onto a ROM chip would cost a lot more, and the next generation PS3 will use Blu-ray discs that have about 4x more disc capacity than DVD media.

With music, ROM chips can hold plenty of music, but the question is which format to go with. Do you go with something that would read with a USB memory reader or one of the nine different memory card formats out there? And aside from durability, what advantage would a solid state memory card have over the CD? With the expansion of broadband, I still think the future is more with downloading because of its flexibility and instant access.


Every single protection system that has reached the market has gotten cracked, some within days. Even if its not possible to just rip out the tracks from a DVD, i'm sure it will be pretty soon.
Everything gets cracked. While we're here discussing DVD audio and stuff, there are kids sitting in front of the computer racking their brains and trying to crack the copy protection.
Eventually DVDs will be as easy to rip as CDs are.
heck, i have absolutely no problem copying DVD movies.

The thing with DVD though is that it has a layer of copy protection on board, which is more than what the CD currently has. As established through court verdicts, programs and devices that crack the DVD copy protection are illegal for sale. I can capture the audio off of DVDs right now by simply using the analog audio output. Of course, it's more of a pain than copying CDs because I need to manually insert the track breaks and song information. The point is that copying DVDs requires some extra steps that you don't need to take when copying CDs. With CDs, I'm using a legal media player and it automatically creates MP3 files out of any CD that I have not yet downloaded to my music library.

[Kaboom]

and to copy a DVD, all u gotta do is run it through a program that already has the code to bypass the copy protection. It isnt out there yet because there are barely any music DVDs around, so crackers don't bother with it, but eventually there'll be a ripper on the inet that won't require anything more than the press of a button to extract all the songs. About the legal problems... Kazaa, eMule, LimeWire and their pals are all illegal and that doesnt seem to be stopping people from using them.
Damn it, even my mom uses it, and even though i've told her its illegal, her excuse is "but everyone does it, so it can't be that bad".
I guess in short my point is that if music starts getting released in copy-protected media, it wont take long before that protection can be bypassed VERY easily.
Cheers!

[StanleyMuso]

[QUOTE=Woochifer]I think it just comes down to cost. Solid state storage devices are more durable and work faster, but comparing memory cards with DVD drives, the DVD drives still hold a lot more data and cost less.
QUOTE]

However, I have been around long enough to have many cherished recordings, in all formats, damaged or destroyed in some way and being forced to replace them. In some cases, older recordings are no longer available, so all I have is the memory. (One old record was destroyed when a playful cat jumped into the turntable). I have reached the stage where I would appreciate a bit of durability and reliability. I've had brand new DVDs straight out of the box which would not play beyond a certain point, and you know what a hassle it is convincing the store owner that it's the disk's fault and not your player's.

[ToddL]

Tell me if I am crazy. I heard vinyls are made from a by-product of oil. If this is actually true than vinyl may be obsolete or cost $1.50 a litre soon.

[Woochifer]

Tell me if I am crazy. I heard vinyls are made from a by-product of oil. If this is actually true than vinyl may be obsolete or cost $1.50 a litre soon.

It's true that vinyl (or any plastic for that matter) is derived from petroleum. Keep in mind though that LPs can also be pressed from recycled vinyl. Back when LPs were the dominant format, I always heard that the record companies moved away from using virgin vinyl and started recycling their unused vinyl stocks. (I believe that the practice started around the time of the 70s energy crisis) Some would argue that it made for noisier sounding surfaces, and the record companies also went to thinner and lighter weight discs as an additional cost cutting measure. The argument in favor of going with audiophile, Japanese, or German pressings, was that they supposedly used heavier weight virgin vinyl that had less surface noise and a smidge more detail.

Most new vinyl records nowadays specify on the label that they use virgin and/or heavyweight vinyl, and the cost reflects that. If oil prices go up, then the production cost also goes up, since I don't think the record manufacturers have a lot of unsold vinyl inventory available to use nowadays for recycling. Of course, new LPs nowadays cost more than CDs to begin with.

[greymalkin]

dvd audio is easy to rip from a dvd. There is a freeware application out there right now that will extract the AC3 (dolby digital) audio from a dvd and convert it to a .wav file to be burned to cd. And all it takes is one or 2 people to make it available online and it's everywhere in no time flat.

Now that is assuming the DVD is a video dvd and is using the VIDEO_TS section of the dvd. The DVD-Audio discs on the other hand take advantage of the AUDIO_TS section and are not yet to my knowledge easily able to be ripped.

The dvd does in fact have more copy protection, but the unfortunate consequence of all the copy protection is the only people who suffer from it are the ones who are buying legitimate copies. Joe Blow who got the ripped/hacked/etc. copy doesn't have to worry about copy protection, activation, etc...His mp3's and wma files never have to call home or ask you to re-enter your information to validate you when you try to play it on another pc...

and solid state really would be the way to go...we have shown that we can have a digital format that comes very close to the sound of analog/vinyl so theres no reason we could not begin shifting from the moving disc to solid state media...The technology has been around for a long time...Nintendo was using it when the other consoles decided to go to those newfangled discs :)...while everyone else was staring at a "load" screen we were playing games...okay i've gotten terrible off here. i will end this now..

[E-Stat]

So why do we persist with spinning disks?
Easy. Spinning disks remain far and away the most cost effective means of high capacity storage. 1 GB memory chips costing $.20 do not yet exist.

rw

[dean_martin]

Another point on albums versus individual song downloads. It's almost like returning pop music to its roots. The 45RPM single was the dominant form of music consumption until about the early-70s when there was a distinct trend towards thematically linked rock albums (and subsequently tailed off by the early-80s). Until that time, a lot of albums were nothing more than collections of singles. With the CD single basically a dead category, song downloads represent the modern day version of the old 45 singles.

Yeah, that's what screwed up The Beatles' catalog on this side of the pond.

NP: Charles Mingus, Mingus Ah hum on a nice big black platter from Columbia!