LCD vs CRT vs DLP?

[topspeed]

I'm sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find an answer by searching the new forum...

My friend recently purchased a Sony 40" LCD rptv and I noticed that the blacks weren't very, well BLACK, and it seemed to have a hard time keeping up with action during the Rose Bowl as there were artifacts (or blocky images) like ghost trails when a lot was happening onscreen. This could be due to his satellite because the picture improved considerably during dvd playback.

My question is, outside of the obvious size advantage and an apparent wider viewing angle, does lcd/dlp offer any visual advantages over crt based behemoths? I love their size and the options that affords, but I really wasn't all that impressed with the picture (I thought my 32" Ultravision had much better contrast and definition). Was it a bad set-up or am I missing something here. I'm also not completely convinced that manufacturers have a handle on this dlp thing yet (witness the new dlp2 - 7 wheel set now hitting stores). LCoS sounds promising but it is far too expensive and too new for my taste.

OK all you experts, what's your take on this? Do CRT RPTV's still offer the best picture (lord knows they are the cheapest) or do LCD/DLP sets offer a tangible advantage? This is regarding HD sets only.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Geoffcin]

I'm sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find an answer by searching the new forum...

My friend recently purchased a Sony 40" LCD rptv and I noticed that the blacks weren't very, well BLACK, and it seemed to have a hard time keeping up with action during the Rose Bowl as there were artifacts (or blocky images) like ghost trails when a lot was happening onscreen. This could be due to his satellite because the picture improved considerably during dvd playback.

My question is, outside of the obvious size advantage and an apparent wider viewing angle, does lcd/dlp offer any visual advantages over crt based behemoths? I love their size and the options that affords, but I really wasn't all that impressed with the picture (I thought my 32" Ultravision had much better contrast and definition). Was it a bad set-up or am I missing something here. I'm also not completely convinced that manufacturers have a handle on this dlp thing yet (witness the new dlp2 - 7 wheel set now hitting stores). LCoS sounds promising but it is far too expensive and too new for my taste.

OK all you experts, what's your take on this? Do CRT RPTV's still offer the best picture (lord knows they are the cheapest) or do LCD/DLP sets offer a tangible advantage? This is regarding HD sets only.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi Topspeed, I dont like RPTV anyway so I'm not a good judge. I've never seen a RPTV that could give my the satisfaction that I get from my 36" Panasonic Tau CRT. That being said, I'm not happy with the small size of my TV, especially playing widscreen movies.

My answer to this conundrum is that I'm planning to get a front projector, and it will most likely be the Panasonic PTAE500U. It is an LCD type projector, designed specifically for HT with a native 16/9 display. This model is so new that it hasn't shipped yet, but the street price is going to be about $2500. Ad a good screen for about $500, and for $3k you've got a serious movie theater going on.

[recoveryone]

I'm sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find an answer by searching the new forum...

My friend recently purchased a Sony 40" LCD rptv and I noticed that the blacks weren't very, well BLACK, and it seemed to have a hard time keeping up with action during the Rose Bowl as there were artifacts (or blocky images) like ghost trails when a lot was happening onscreen. This could be due to his satellite because the picture improved considerably during dvd playback.

My question is, outside of the obvious size advantage and an apparent wider viewing angle, does lcd/dlp offer any visual advantageover crt based behemoths? I love their size and the options that affords, but I really wasn't all that impressed with the picture (I thought my 32" Ultravision had much better contrast and definition). Was it a bad set-up or am I missing something here. I'm also not completely convinced that manufacturers have a handle on this dlp thing yet (witness the new dlp2 - 7 wheel set now hitting stores). LCoS sounds promising but it is far too expensive and too new for my taste.

OK all you experts, what's your take on this? Do CRT RPTV's still offer the best picture (lord knows they are the cheapest) or do LCD/DLP sets offer a tangible advantage? This is regarding HD sets only.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Howdy topspeed, I own a RPTV (MIt's WS55805) All I can say is I have not looked back back since I brought it 3 years ago. In most cases its what is being feed to the unit. Regular analog cable just sucks, but Digital feed or HDTV signal is awesome. Progressive DVD player really shine. I went over to my brother-in-law's to see his new Samsung (don't know why he got a 4:3 size screen, properly the price) His picture was nice, but when I came home and look at mine I really saw the difference. Mine just out shined his by a mile.

Back to your question, I would say that the new LCD and DLP is made for a true Hometheater. Blacked out room, a totally controled room enviroment with only Hi res type of picture feeds (progressive DVD, HDTV, HD-VCR). Just not made to endure/look good for the everyday type viewing.

[yakkosmurf]

[QUOTE=recoveryone]Howdy topspeed, I own a RPTV (MIt's WS55805) All I can say is I have not looked back back since I brought it 3 years ago. In most cases its what is being feed to the unit. Regular analog cable just sucks, but Digital feed or HDTV signal is awesome. Progressive DVD player really shine. I went over to my brother-in-law's to see his new Samsung (don't know why he got a 4:3 size screen, properly the price) His picture was nice, but when I came home and look at mine I really saw the difference. Mine just out shined his by a mile.

[QUOTE]
I'm going to have to go with Topspeed on this one. The CRTs provide a much better picture than even the highend RPTVs that do HD. I don't think your comparison is the same as topspeed's. He's comparing to a higher quality CRT than a Samsung. I think that some of the RPTVs can be better than tubes, but when you compare the best against the best, as I did, it was easy to see that the CRT had the better picture quality. Yes, the screen size was a little smaller, but picture quality was more important to me. Also, since my room only allows for a 12' seating distance from the set, the poorer quality would have been very noticable.

[topspeed]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Hi Geoff,
I considered a projector but my room is simply not conducive to that type of set-up. The only place I could put the screen would be above the fireplace which put the viewing angle too high for my taste. Because of this, I'm forced to look at rptv's. BTW, are you still waiting for the HCA5 (or whatever Paul's going to call it)? A friend of mine just picked up a n-i-b Conrad Johnson 5 channel on e-bay for only $2K!!

Hey Recoveryone,
You brought up a good point. I'll be using this in a room where the side and back walls are almost completely windows, therefore there is a TON of ambient light. Because of this contrast and brightness are very important to me. I think dlp's are leading the pack in this regard, at least from what I've seen.

Yo Yakko,
So I'm clear, are you referring to a regular crt tv or a crt rptv? It sounds like the former. I know that crt tv's have the best blacks and contrasts but I really want at least a 50" viewable screen as I sit about 11' from the screen.

So guys, my questions relate to only rptv's. It will be fed by a progressive scan dvd player and an HD Dish Network feed as soon as they get the package out (supossedly very soon). Is there any advantage to fixed pixel displays such as lcd/dlp versus crt rptv? Better picture? Better contrast? Blacks? Native displays? Upgradeabilty? If the only advantage is that they are lot smaller and lighter physically, I'll probably save the $ and buy a crt based rptv. Any ideas?

Thanks again for your help.

[woodman]

Hey speedo -
Here are the differences between the various types of RPTV displays:

LCD - DLP - LCoS (fixed pixel displays)
1. Thinner cabinet
2. Lighter weight
3. Light producing engine is via a lamp - much cheaper to replace than a set of (3) CRTs - although replacement will be more frequent.
4. Slight gain in briteness with DLP over CRT-based

CRT-based
1. Deeper cabinet (although not as much as in previous years)
2. Heavier
3. Needs convergence to look its best
4. If run in "torch-mode", CRT life will be compromised
5. By far the "biggest bang for the buck" - no contest!

From what you describe of your viewing room, it sounds like you'd be well-advised to seek some sort of window treatment to cut down on the excessive ambient light - especially if you opt for a CRT-based RPTV set.

If you do go for the latter, here are the brands I recommend:
Toshiba
Hitachi
Mitsubishi
Panasonic

In closing, let me add that direct-view CRT sets do not produce better quality images than other types of display ... they just look "better" because of the smaller screen sizes. This is a VERY popular misconception, that's helped along by the fact that many RPTVs are not properly setup and adjusted at the factories. Setting up and adjusting a direct-view (in the factory) is a much simpler process than doing so with a big RPTV.

Hope this helps you

[topspeed]

Thanks Woodman,

What is "torch mode?" Excessive reds? Contrast and brightness max'd out? I'm a newbie at the video stuff so you'll have to forgive my lack of understanding.

I just got back from Best Buy to pick up a new computer screen (NEC LCD1765...using it now...Holy Clarity Batman!!!) and took a peek at the rptv's for giggles. I'd probably only buy Toshiba or Hitachi. I love my Ultravision and from what I understand, everybody gets their tubes and lenses from Hitachi anyway but they keep their cutting edge stuff proprietary. Whether this is true or not, you tell me. However, I wanted to check out the Sony KP57WS510 (I know you're not a fan) because:
1) It just won product of the year from TPV
2) It's only $2,099
Unfortunately they had the damn thing on a rack a foot above my head (nice marketing there, sport) so I couldn't see anything. On the ground level tho, the Samsung DLP that was projecting the CU game in HD was clearly the brightest and sharpest picture, by far. It smoked the two Mitsu's broadcasting the same game on each side. Now I know they probably weren't dialed in but I have to admit the difference was substantial.

This brings me to another question. Another poster asked about ISF calibration. I asked the same about a month ago. How much do these things cost and are they worth it? Could a novice like me with the AVIA or S&V calibration disc dial it in pretty well or do I need to hire a pro like you? TPV and others have noted Hitachi's "Magic Focus" convergence function is pretty well useless. This is important because one of the reasons the Sony got POTY was because it was "right" straight out of the box and ISF calibration was a marginal improvement. OTOH, the Hitachi had the best picture and resolution but only after a $600(!) ISF calibration. Tack that onto the considerable price difference and now the Hitachi is fully TWICE as much! What's your take on this?

BTW, I have blinds AND curtain for all the windows and shut everything out when I'm doing critical listening or watching movies.

[Crunchyriff]

I can vouch for the Samsung DLP's. Simply incredible 'out of the box'. Richer, and the black level is better than anything else I saw on display at the store. I noticed the black level quality that the Samsung's had immediately. Simply gorgeous.

They are trick, and you can hang em on a wall, but they can have those overpriced 'flutter-when-there's-action' Plasma displays.
To my eyes, the DLP's are richer, smoother (no grain like the Plasmas I've seen, even on the $8k Pioneer Elite unit), and just plain fabulous.

IF I may, I think "torch level' in Woodman's terms, means the factory settings are usually cranked WAY up, and are very hard on the set itself. I can't remember which kills the set- contrast or brightness ( the latter, I think) but if it is allowed to stay that way, it can diminish the life of the set by over 50%.

[IsmaVA]

Another of the "cons" of DLP/LCD is that, since they create a truly digital image, they are at their best when the feed is in their native resolution. If what you are trying to watch is in any other resolution the set must convert it to the native resolution which will, in most cases, introduce many artifacts.

Regarding the problems with ambient light, DLP, LCD and RPTV are all rear projection units, so they have basically the same problems.

[woodman]

What is "torch mode?" Excessive reds? Contrast and brightness max'd out? I'm a newbie at the video stuff so you'll have to forgive my lack of understanding.

Your second guess is the right one ... contrast and brightness "cranked" (often to the max) in order for the set to stand out in a somewhat brightly lit environment. This is a good reason NOT to ever buy an "open-box" TV set or a "display model". If a set is left in this condition, CRT life will be seriously reduced.


I love my Ultravision and from what I understand, everybody gets their tubes and lenses from Hitachi anyway but they keep their cutting edge stuff proprietary. Whether this is true or not, you tell me.

Not quite true. Although there's often sourcing of parts and assemblies between companies, the idea that only Hitachi makes the CRTs and the lenses is quite false - an "urban myth" of sorts.


However, I wanted to check out the Sony KP57WS510 (I know you're not a fan) because:
1) It just won product of the year from TPV

That only goes to show what those people REALLY know about the subject of which they're presenting themselves to be "experts".

2) It's only $2,099

There's a clue right there, podner. That set carried an MSRP of $3K - now they're willing to sell it for nearly 1/3 off ... that's more than the original dealer "margin" was to begin with!


On the ground level tho, the Samsung DLP that was projecting the CU game in HD was clearly the brightest and sharpest picture, by far. It smoked the two Mitsu's broadcasting the same game on each side. Now I know they probably weren't dialed in but I have to admit the difference was substantial.

That's what's known as "marketing" ... showing the product with the best profit margin in a better "light" than a competing product. Of course, the two Mitsubishis weren't dialed in to show them at their best .... that would be counter-productive.



This brings me to another question. Another poster asked about ISF calibration. I asked the same about a month ago. How much do these things cost and are they worth it? Could a novice like me with the AVIA or S&V calibration disc dial it in pretty well or do I need to hire a pro like you? TPV and others have noted Hitachi's "Magic Focus" convergence function is pretty well useless. This is important because one of the reasons the Sony got POTY was because it was "right" straight out of the box and ISF calibration was a marginal improvement. OTOH, the Hitachi had the best picture and resolution but only after a $600(!) ISF calibration. Tack that onto the considerable price difference and now the Hitachi is fully TWICE as much! What's your take on this?

My "take" on ISF calibration is that IF somebody has the cash to be able to shell out $300, 400, 500, or 600 dollars on "tweaking" and never miss it, then it's a great idea - an idea whose time has come. But the results can be a VERY mixed bag, in that the amount of improvements to picture quality can vary all over the map - depending mainly on how far "off" the set came out of the box. Also, considerably more improvement will be made with CRT-based RPTVs than with fixed-pixel displays like DLP and LCD and LCoS. If you arm yourself with an Avia disc and are willing to spend a bit (well, maybe MORE than a bit) of your time doing it, you should be able to get within a few percent of the set's maximum potential by yourself.

Hope this helps you

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Woodman,

A question for you. I left my RPTV on for about five days in a row but with no video sources on at all(in other words the screen was completely black. Am I doing any harm to the set by leaving it on like that?

[woodman]

Woodman,

A question for you. I left my RPTV on for about five days in a row but with no video sources on at all(in other words the screen was completely black. Am I doing any harm to the set by leaving it on like that?

Sir T.T.:
As far as "harm" to your set goes - there'll be absolutely NO wear and tear on the CRTs (I'm assuming that that's what you have) ... none, zero, zilch! That I'd assume, is what you were mainly concerned about, right?

As far as the rest of the set goes - no telling just what (if any) damage could have occurred. In my experience, I'd be inclined to think that NO damage whatsoever was likely to happen to it as the result of leaving it powered up for 5 days continuously.

Hope that relieves yo' mind.-

[topspeed]

That was big help.

So what you're telling me then is that DLP may have a brighter picture and will be less likely to be completely out of whack straight out of the box, right? If this is the case, it would seem that it would be the way to go, especially considering they are pretty much the same price as the good Hitachi and Toshiba sets.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thanks Woodman, I was sweating bullets. My buddies who are video technicians for Paramount worked really hard to make this set of reference quality for viewing and I didn't want to mess it up in any way. Whew!!!

[woodman]

That was big help.

So what you're telling me then is that DLP may have a brighter picture and will be less likely to be completely out of whack straight out of the box, right? If this is the case, it would seem that it would be the way to go, especially considering they are pretty much the same price as the good Hitachi and Toshiba sets.

Pretty much the same price???? Not from what I've seen they're not! I don't get into any retail stores very often anymore - the closest ones are 40 miles away from where I live. But, the last time I looked Samsung DLP sets were at least $1K more than comparable size screen CRT-based sets from Toshiba, Hitachi, or Panasonic.

So, no - I'm not prepared to make the leap that you seem ready to make. I may be accused of being an old fuddy, but in all of my years of experience, I've found pure electronic devices to be far more reliable than any electro-mechanical devices where there are moving parts such as VCRs, CD players, DVD players, turntables, audio cassette decks, etc. (which IS the case with the DLP technology). It might turn out to be very reliable and therefore prove me wrong - but the ONLY display device using DLP technology that I'd be willing to gamble my money on would be a front projector such as the InFocus X-1 which sells for a mere $995, and according to reports from owners, produces stunning pictures! I'd gamble $1K of my hard-earned on one of those, but I'm nowhere near ready to gamble $4K on a DLP-based RPTV - no matter who makes it.

My 50 cents on the subject - hope it helps you