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Lexmark3200
08-24-2005, 10:35 AM
WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY

Sam Raimi just nailed it. In my humble opinion, in the history of bringing comic book characters to "life" on the big screen, no one --- including Richard Donner and his excellent Superman II, Ang Lee and his Hulk, Mark Steven Johnson and HIS awesome attempt at Daredevil --- as well as the cinematic bombs that were The Punisher (both versions in my opinion) and crap like the first Captain America film --- has been able to capture the absolute comic book feel of a character and his surroundings, the villains he fights and the life he leads quite like Raimi has done with his film versions of the famous Marvel wall-slinger and its sequel. They are indeed comic-to-film transition at its perfection; there is no denying this. Everything --- from the casting down to the electric yet gritty look of the Peter Parker character's New York City environment (not to mention the incredibly real detail gone into making the web-slinger's red and blue suit jump off the screen and appear almost exactly as it should from the comic series) --- has been rendered with authenticity by Raimi. The films have become phenomenons, launching worldwide marketing campaigns for fast food chains, toy companies, you name it --- and has revitalized the interest in the almost-forgotten Spider-Man Marvel character. With each film that is released, it leaves audiences with one thought: WHEN IS THE NEXT ONE COMING OUT??!! At least that's how I felt leaving the theater after seeing the first one.....I simply couldn't WAIT for the sequel, to see who the villain was going to be and how Raimi was going to flesh out the characters, if so, any better......now, after seeing the sequel (well, when it was released theatrically I mean), the same reaction has taken over: I want to see the third film and wonder which villain Raimi will be introducing next.

But I can honestly remember, folks, walking out of the sequel during its opening night theatrical run (I saw both the original and sequel on opening night) with my ex and two other couples we were out with that were friends of mine, and thinking that for some reason----I DID enjoy the first Spidey better. There seemed to be some "magic" about the first film --- and I say this to THIS day --- that seems to be missing from Raimi's sequel; I don?t know if this has anything to do with the fact that in the original we are just being introduced to the characters and Parker's powers and such, or that I think the fight sequences between the Green Goblin and Spidey were more violent and loaded with better hand to hand combat as compared to those between Spidey and Doctor Octopus in the sequel (although THOSE fight sequences were wild as well) or perhaps it's that I feel that the sequel's running time was a tad too long and they could have edited many scenes from it to cut it down (the first film is actually MORE effective in introducing us to the Spider-Man story without being as long as the sequel, and in the same measure, eliminates the need for the currently popular prequel film).....but, for whatever reason, while both films are fantastic comic-to-screen action flicks, I STILL think the first one holds some kind of magic that wasn't duplicated in the sequel.

Casting, don't get me wrong, is spot on here in both films --- DaFoe was brilliant as Norman Osborne/Green Goblin, and so was Alfred Molina as Otto Octavious/Doc Ock; Tobey Maguire's portrayal of Peter Parker is subjective but I feel he nailed the role as the struggling-with-his-identity character from the comics. And Kirsten Dunst as Mary Jane...well....to me, any onscreen time she is given is an excuse to leap to my DVD player's fast forward button on the remote.

Who's to play the villain in the third, already-filming picture? The end of the sequel would make you believe that Harry Osborne becomes the Hobgoblin after finding his father's Green Goblin hideaway --- but Raimi could have been doing this to trick us; there is speculation that we are going to possibly see The Lizard as the next bad guy the wall crawler faces. I can't wait, anyway.

Let's talk DVD, because when the first film arrived on our favorite software of choice, it was one of the most-anticipated releases in the history of recorded home media; what Columbia has done with the series of DVDs for this franchise has downright confused the public with multiple, repetitive releases of both the first and second films on DVD. I originally bought Columbia's SPECIAL EDITION two disc set of the first film on release day (in FOOL (full) screen because I was running a 27" 4:3 TV at the time) and since that time, you know what has been released? A Superbit version, a Deluxe Edition adding a third extras disc, a massive gift set in a board game-like box with ALL kinds of collectible extras in it --- and don't ask about the sequel. It has been given similar treatment, but one thing I applauded Columbia for was their choice to release the SUPERBIT of the sequel on the SAME DAY as they were releasing the standard Special Edition versions --- as not to force enthusiasts to double dip once again down the line; needless to say, I received the Superbit version of the sequel as a gift last Christmas season without even thinking twice about buying the standard edition. I believe there is even a two-pack set available which bundles the two DVDs of the two films together --- let's just say Columbia has marketed the **** out of these titles.

My original impressions of the first film?s DVD release (even in fool screen) were that it was, as everyone had claimed, an average effort at best. The video quality was decent enough (on my small 27" set anyway which wasn't going to reveal many flaws as is) but the Dolby Digital 5.1 audio track I thought could have used some punching up.....it WAS active, for sure, with surround channels being called upon when appropriate and for creating a realistic surround environment --- but, there was something lacking here overall, and that probably had something to do with the fact that SO MANY extra features were packed onto that first Special Edition release of the first film --- which spilled onto a second disc. There was a tremendous amount of marketing, behind the scenes and other materials on this two disc set that it was almost inevitable that video and audio were going to get sacrificed --- but wasn't that what was really important?

My first Spidey experience in Superbit was with the sequel, but before I get to analyzing that, let me spend some time investigating and reporting on the results I received after watching the ORIGINAL film on Superbit, which I JUST got around to buying yesterday in order to replace my fool screen version and to take advantage of this Superbit sale Best Buy is still running. I watched the original's Superbit edition last night, and here is what I came away with:

VIDEO SPECIFICATIONS:
DIGITALLY MASTERED 1:85:1 WIDESCREEN TRANSFER

I of course must have been missing some vital information from the sides of the screen while all this time running my pan and scan version of the film, but what hit me first while running this Superbit edition of Spider-Man (with its 1:85:1 transfer which filled my screen with no letterboxing) was what I had suspected and read all over the internet on other review sites: this transfer doesn't look all that much different --- or better --- for that matter, than Columbia's first release. This is what I have been finding with some Superbit titles like The Patriot; I realize Sony claims that by eliminating the features and trailer spots and such from the original releases of these discs this frees up bitrate space for a better video and audio delivery for hardcore home theater enthusiasts, but I'm getting hard pressed to find such benefits and I'm beginning to believe that this may be a way just to get us to double dip and keep on spending money on this studio's titles with no real, OBVIOUS benefits.

Online DVD reviewers bragged about the Superbit's drastic improvement in the opening title sequence of the film over the first release --- I was hard pressed to see many differences; to me, the colors were as bright as they were on the first release. As the film progressed, it is POSSIBLE that this was a slightly better-looking presentation as compared to the first double disc release, but nothing --- and I mean nothing --- that made me fall out of my chair due to drastic improvements. Spidey's suit remained the same color wise, the Goblin's green seemed to be just as green on the Superbit version --- this was a release, unfortunately friends, that I could say I felt like Sony scammed us on as I detected no real video benefits (outside of trading up and getting rid of my full screen version) over Columbia's first two disc release --- and if they were there, they were subtle.

AUDIO SPECIFICATIONS:
DIGITALLY MASTERED ENGLISH DOLBY DIGITAL 5.1, ENGLISH DTS 5.1; SUBTITLES IN ENGLISH, FRENCH, SPANISH, PORTUGESE, CHINESE, KOREAN, THAI; EXCLUSIVE COMMENTARY BY TOBEY MAGUIRE AND JK SIMMONS

In a first for a Superbit title, there is supposed to be a running commentary on this disc --- although I have read online that some people have had difficulty accessing this feature. And, as usual, onboard are the choices of Dolby Digital or DTS surround tracks --- which is what prompted me to upgrade to this edition mainly because I was so curious to see how much the DTS mix, if at all, was going to improve upon the decent-at-best Dolby track from the Special Edition. Again, the results were.....well, I don't want to say DISSAPOINTING, but.....let's just say not what I was expecting. There seems to be the common SLIGHT increase in volume power here on the DTS mix --- and in this case, I do mean SLIGHT, as it was hard to detect much decibel level increase activity over the Dolby Digital version --- but overall, I found the experience to be almost the same as I did watching this disc in Dolby Digital 5.1 surround. There is DEFINITELY a greater sense of LFE presence here on the DTS mix, THAT I detected, but overall, it sounds much like the Dolby track of previous editions on this title.

Many fellow online DVD reviewers boast about one scene in particular on the Superbit version's DTS track, where the laughing voice of DaFoe's Goblin personality takes on a MASSIVE shift and drastic improvement from speaker to speaker through the surrounds as it bounces around the listener as compared to the Dolby track --- to be perfectly honest, I found the effect, even in Dolby Digital, to be just as satisfying and similar to the way it was rendered in DTS. Even all the action sequences --- the fight between Spidey and the Green Goblin in the burning building (where you can still hear the flames licking around you in the surrounds), the final confrontation on the Queensboro Bridge and the awesome end hand to hand combat scene between the Goblin and the web slinger --- all seemed to sound very very similar in DTS as it did in Dolby Digital.

The question becomes: do you, as a fan, REALLY need that DTS track on the Superbit version or are the extras regarding the behind the scenes marketing for the first film more important to you on the Special Edition? If the answer to that second question is yes, than I say keep your original release of this title because I didn't spot many improvements on the Superbit. On the other hand, if you wish to take advantage of this Best Buy Superbit sale and WANT the definitive version of the film audio and video wise, it's probably not going to get "better" than the Superbit edition.

Now, moving onto Raimi's Spider-Man 2, I don't really need to do an official rundown of the Superbit disc because I've just done so many exhaustive full length reviews of this title since owning it that it would be redundant at this point; let's just point out a couple of facts. I did not have the original two disc Special Edition (released the same day) to compare against the Superbit version going into it, but I can make these comments: after watching the original and sequel in Superbit AND in DTS last night back to back, it is obvious the sequel's DTS mix was hotter and more active. Aside from that, there were aspect ratio differences, wherein Raimi shot the original in 1:85:1 and the sequel in 2:35 or 2:40:1 so the sequel appeared with slight letterboxing on my display. In terms of video performance, the Superbit version of the sequel remained pretty much problem free and is probably the best the film is going to look pre-hi definition (I don't know how the Special Edition version of the sequel looked because I went right for the Superbit on release day, well, actually receiving it as a gift). But in terms of audio, I can tell you this: the FIRST film's Superbit DTS mix needed more volume amplification than the sequel's DTS mix did, and the sequel's DTS track just seemed "more aggressive" across the board --- not by much, but it did sound richer in certain areas.

And so in closing, friends, I feel like while I always enjoy sitting down with the sequel in Superbit glory, the Superbit release of the first Spidey film may not be that much of an improvement over the first release; the DTS track, to me, didn't seem "much" hotter than the Dolby Digital mix on the Special Edition but there is a definite tighter LFE presence on the DTS track. All in all, I will go as far to say that I believe Columbia could have done a better job on BOTH films' audio presentations for their DVD releases, whether they be Special Editions OR Superbits. Of course, this is just my opinion and what my ears were telling me.

Happy Superbit Shopping!

GMichael
08-24-2005, 11:12 AM
Hi Lex,

I also enjoyed the first one better than number 2. But I did feel let down at the end of the first one. The ending didn't seem up to the rest of the movie. Most likely this was due to the sudden re-write of the ending. Originally Spidey was to catch the bad guy in a web spun across the twin towers. Then came 9-11 and the ending was changed.

But Spidey two was still fun. Both are what they are, comic stips turned into movies. They won't ever be Gone with the Wind or the Sound of Music, and they don't try to be. Just a fun way to spend a couple of hours. The sound seemed good. Plenty of thump thump.

Lexmark3200
08-24-2005, 11:19 AM
"Hi Lex"

Hi G! Thanks for reading the overview!

"I also enjoyed the first one better than number 2. But I did feel let down at the end of the first one. The ending didn't seem up to the rest of the movie."

While Im considering what you say below with regard to this, I thought the hand to hand battle scene with Green Goblin was AWESOME as they're simply punching the **** out of each other to see who's stronger; I loved it how Goblin kicks Spidey's ass in the beginning of that fight and then when Goblin mentions Mary Jane, Spidey gets real pissed and gets all his strength back and kicks the Goblin's ass. Great stuff!

"Most likely this was due to the sudden re-write of the ending. Originally Spidey was to catch the bad guy in a web spun across the twin towers. Then came 9-11 and the ending was changed."

You mean it was SUPPOSED to end with the Green Goblin being caught in a web across the Twin Towers? Was he SUPPOSED to die then?

"But Spidey two was still fun. Both are what they are, comic stips turned into movies."

Oh I think they are the best example of that as Raimi seems to be an expert at this art.

"They won't ever be Gone with the Wind or the Sound of Music, and they don't try to be."

Who would ever think they would?

"Just a fun way to spend a couple of hours. The sound seemed good. Plenty of thump thump."

Which versions of the discs do you own?

Thanks again for your comments and for reading the overview!

GMichael
08-24-2005, 11:42 AM
Not sure if Goblin was to die in the original ending. I'd guess yes if pressed into an answer. I don't think they would change it if they didn't have to, but you never really know unless you have the original footage.

(Superbit-Dts) Not on sale though. :rolleyes:

Lexmark3200
08-24-2005, 12:00 PM
Not sure if Goblin was to die in the original ending. I'd guess yes if pressed into an answer. I don't think they would change it if they didn't have to, but you never really know unless you have the original footage.

(Superbit-Dts) Not on sale though. :rolleyes:

You have BOTH on Superbit you mean? And unfortunately you didnt get a chance to take advantage of this Superbit sale I guess because if you bought the ORIGINAL when it was released in Superbit, it WAS going for like 22 bucks....

That's simply outgrageous to me.....even for a Superbit title.......I'm beginning to wonder what they're giving us for that money......

GMichael
08-24-2005, 12:06 PM
You have BOTH on Superbit you mean? And unfortunately you didnt get a chance to take advantage of this Superbit sale I guess because if you bought the ORIGINAL when it was released in Superbit, it WAS going for like 22 bucks....

That's simply outgrageous to me.....even for a Superbit title.......I'm beginning to wonder what they're giving us for that money......

Even worse:

1. Spider-Man 2 (Superbit-Dts) Our Low Price: $26.95
2. Spider-Man (Superbit-Dts) Our Low Price: $22.81

But at the time, I had to have them.

Lexmark3200
08-24-2005, 12:30 PM
Even worse:

1. Spider-Man 2 (Superbit-Dts) Our Low Price: $26.95
2. Spider-Man (Superbit-Dts) Our Low Price: $22.81

But at the time, I had to have them.

Oh Jesus.....27 BUCKS IS HIGH for the sequel, let alone the 23 bucks for the original.....I paid 10 bucks yesterday for the original in Superbit, but the sequel was bought for me as a holiday present last Christmas season by my ex, so I lucked out........

GMichael
08-24-2005, 12:33 PM
Oh Jesus.....27 BUCKS IS HIGH for the sequel, let alone the 23 bucks for the original.....I paid 10 bucks yesterday for the original in Superbit, but the sequel was bought for me as a holiday present last Christmas season by my ex, so I lucked out........

Yup, but it is what it is.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-25-2005, 08:49 AM
There seems to be the common SLIGHT increase in volume power here on the DTS mix --- and in this case, I do mean SLIGHT, as it was hard to detect much decibel level increase activity over the Dolby Digital version --- but overall, I found the experience to be almost the same as I did watching this disc in Dolby Digital 5.1 surround.

Both Dts and DD soundtracks are sourced from the same printmaster for superbit titles. Dialog normalization is not used on this particular title, or on many of the superbit titles. Knowing this, I went to these two titles using soundforge software on my laptop. There is no amplitude difference between the two formats. I checked in at least a dozen spots, and amplitude wise they are simular. So Dts is not "hotter" than DD on this particular title.


Many fellow online DVD reviewers boast about one scene in particular on the Superbit version's DTS track, where the laughing voice of DaFoe's Goblin personality takes on a MASSIVE shift and drastic improvement from speaker to speaker through the surrounds as it bounces around the listener as compared to the Dolby track --- to be perfectly honest, I found the effect, even in Dolby Digital, to be just as satisfying and similar to the way it was rendered in DTS.

Don't agree at all. My observation on that pan is quite different. The voice of the Goblin appears right back, then left front to left back panning to right back and then back to the front soundstage. It sounds pretty good in Dolby Digital but the rear pan falls flat a little, it is obvious that the voice is coming from the speakers. Switch to DTS and it sounds more fluid, localised yet the voice tends to hang in the air around you with the rear pan working very smoothly.

Dialog is also handle better by Dts, as I was able to hear the differences between the on location dialog, and the ADR recorded in post. The ADR recordist also used slightly different eq at times, even with the same voice.

The harmonic and spatial structure of the music score was also better delinated by Dts. You had the ability to hear the reflections off the walls of the scoring stage which gives clues to its size. With DD your are not able to hear any such cues.

Overall the Dts soundtrack sounded more coherent(as opposed to speaker to speaker with the DD tracks), warmer, and slightly more ambient than the DD tracks. The comparison was level matched.

Different rooms, systems, and ears will yield different results.

Lexmark3200
08-25-2005, 09:19 AM
"Both Dts and DD soundtracks are sourced from the same printmaster for superbit titles. Dialog normalization is not used on this particular title, or on many of the superbit titles. Knowing this, I went to these two titles using soundforge software on my laptop. There is no amplitude difference between the two formats. I checked in at least a dozen spots, and amplitude wise they are simular. So Dts is not "hotter" than DD on this particular title."

I DID say "slightly" if at all --- I did not have software for a computer at my ready for this analysis, and just reporting what my ears told me. IF ANYTHING, the DTS mix SEEMS to be a bit "hotter" --- yes, amplitude wise they ARE similar; I had said that in the review. If I am so wrong then why are there SO MANY online reviewers out there who are finding "drastic differences" at times between the DTS and DD mix of the first Spider Man release? Im not saying I DID----but there ARE reviewers who claim they CAN hear differences in these mixes.

"Don't agree at all. My observation on that pan is quite different. The voice of the Goblin appears right back, then left front to left back panning to right back and then back to the front soundstage. It sounds pretty good in Dolby Digital but the rear pan falls flat a little, it is obvious that the voice is coming from the speakers. Switch to DTS and it sounds more fluid, localised yet the voice tends to hang in the air around you with the rear pan working very smoothly."

I have heard this observation you make here from COUNTLESS co-reviewers that I know personally, regarding the fact that his laugh seems to be "hard to locate" in DTS as opposed to the Dolby mix, but again, you can disagree, but playing these tracks back to back in MY room under MY conditions through MY system, the laugh and echo effect SEEMED to sound the same in DTS as on the Dolby version. It didn't really make me "sit up and take notice." Disagree all you want.

"Dialog is also handle better by Dts, as I was able to hear the differences between the on location dialog, and the ADR recorded in post. The ADR recordist also used slightly different eq at times, even with the same voice."

Regarding which portion of the film-----the Goblin's as we have been discussing, or the whole thing itself? If you're talking the whole thing itself, I have been saying with every report on these Superbit titles that the DTS tracks seem to add more punch to the dialogue, and that is notably apparent.

"The harmonic and spatial structure of the music score was also better delinated by Dts. You had the ability to hear the reflections off the walls of the scoring stage which gives clues to its size. With DD your are not able to hear any such cues."

Perhaps. It still sounded awfully similar to the Dolby Digital mix of the Special Edition, and that's all I wanted consumers to be aware of; they are not going to hear these "off the wall reflections" you speak of (most of the ones I write to anyway) and most just want to know if the DTS mix is going to "sound somehow better" which I found, overall, simply matched the Dolby presentation.

"Overall the Dts soundtrack sounded more coherent(as opposed to speaker to speaker with the DD tracks), warmer, and slightly more ambient than the DD tracks. The comparison was level matched."

Okay; if those were your observations. Perhaps running at absolute reference ear bleeding levels these discrepencies can be argued. But in general, the DTS mix to me sounded very similar to the Dolby Digital track from Columbia's original Special Edition, and to me, I am NOT recommending the upgrade to Superbit for its regular selling price in the $20-range for those who already own the first version because I noticed no "fall off your seat" improvements here.

"Different rooms, systems, and ears will yield different results."

Hence, my ears and my room told me these mixes sounded VERY VERY similar. I was not impressed with Sony's "Superbit Spider-Man" release.

Kam
08-25-2005, 09:24 AM
"Dialog is also handle better by Dts, as I was able to hear the differences between the on location dialog, and the ADR recorded in post. The ADR recordist also used slightly different eq at times, even with the same voice. "

hery sir ttt,
there is nothing worse than crappy adr... (ok, well jumping on a bike with the seat missing is worse, but still...) i guess when it's done right, you never notice it, but it is so obivous when done wrong. from a soundman's pov, i understand the logic of having a clean track. but having been on the other side of the mic, it is really tough to replicate dialogue standing in a booth watching yourself and hearing the playback! especially when your voice is tweaked from turning and speaking back over your shoulder and having to replicate the same vocal intonations. ugh! frustrations galore (adr sucks). i've been miked up with lavaliers, had shotguns inches away, and still need to go back in later for adr.

they have noise cancelling headphones, but do they have mics that isolate vocals over ambient noise? or shotguns that can isolate a few feet only of sound? (is that even possible?) there are thsoe sweet directional sennheiser shotguns, but how about a ltd distance shotgun? now that would be a sweet invention! (heard it here first, i get the patent! haha!)

i heard that nearly ALL of the law & order EXT's are looped in post. now that's impressive becuase it wouldn't have guessed it while watching the show.

peace
k2

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-25-2005, 02:01 PM
Both Dts and DD soundtracks are sourced from the same printmaster for superbit titles. Dialog normalization is not used on this particular title, or on many of the superbit titles. Knowing this, I went to these two titles using soundforge software on my laptop. There is no amplitude difference between the two formats. I checked in at least a dozen spots, and amplitude wise they are simular. So Dts is not "hotter" than DD on this particular title."


I DID say "slightly" if at all --- I did not have software for a computer at my ready for this analysis, and just reporting what my ears told me. IF ANYTHING, the DTS mix SEEMS to be a bit "hotter" --- yes, amplitude wise they ARE similar; I had said that in the review. If I am so wrong then why are there SO MANY online reviewers out there who are finding "drastic differences" at times between the DTS and DD mix of the first Spider Man release? Im not saying I DID----but there ARE reviewers who claim they CAN hear differences in these mixes.

You are trying to hedge here.

You said "There seems to be the common SLIGHT increase in volume power here on the DTS mix --"

These are your words. This is not vague as you use the word common also. The facts, Dts is never hotter than DD. DD uses dialog normalization which reduces or increases the volume when compare to the printmaster. Dts will always A/B well because they do not use any circuitry that alters the amplitude. However in this case dialog norm is not applied, and careful analysis and comparison of the two soundtracks shows that they are of equal amplitude in at least a dozen spots. Since you say this is what your EARS told you, I would get them tested if I were you.

"Don't agree at all. My observation on that pan is quite different. The voice of the Goblin appears right back, then left front to left back panning to right back and then back to the front soundstage. It sounds pretty good in Dolby Digital but the rear pan falls flat a little, it is obvious that the voice is coming from the speakers. Switch to DTS and it sounds more fluid, localised yet the voice tends to hang in the air around you with the rear pan working very smoothly."


I have heard this observation you make here from COUNTLESS co-reviewers that I know personally, regarding the fact that his laugh seems to be "hard to locate" in DTS as opposed to the Dolby mix, but again, you can disagree, but playing these tracks back to back in MY room under MY conditions through MY system, the laugh and echo effect SEEMED to sound the same in DTS as on the Dolby version. It didn't really make me "sit up and take notice." Disagree all you want.

I need to add COUNTLESS co-reviewers on the list of the many vagarities you often list as sources. Considering that you use in ceiling speakers(which are flawed no matter what) I can understand why you cannot ascertain any differences. Maybe a upgrade to real speakers would help out here. I have looked at at least 8 different sites for reviews on this title. All agree that the Dts audio sound slightly better than the DD one. I think we all agree that the differences are small but noticeable as it should be. Nobody is following your lead by claiming they sound exactly alike.

"Dialog is also handle better by Dts, as I was able to hear the differences between the on location dialog, and the ADR recorded in post. The ADR recordist also used slightly different eq at times, even with the same voice."


Regarding which portion of the film-----the Goblin's as we have been discussing, or the whole thing itself? If you're talking the whole thing itself, I have been saying with every report on these Superbit titles that the DTS tracks seem to add more punch to the dialogue, and that is notably apparent.

What I am describing is not punch(even though that is apparent). What I am describing is called refinement and resolution. Big difference

"The harmonic and spatial structure of the music score was also better delinated by Dts. You had the ability to hear the reflections off the walls of the scoring stage which gives clues to its size. With DD your are not able to hear any such cues."


Perhaps. It still sounded awfully similar to the Dolby Digital mix of the Special Edition, and that's all I wanted consumers to be aware of; they are not going to hear these "off the wall reflections" you speak of (most of the ones I write to anyway) and most just want to know if the DTS mix is going to "sound somehow better" which I found, overall, simply matched the Dolby presentation.

The Dolby mix on the superbit sounds better than the Dolby mix on the special edition, the special edition mix does not even come close to the Dts soundtrack on the superbit version. How do you know that consumer won't here the wall reflections coming from the score? I don't expect that your system would pick them up, but you have no idea the resolution of others system. Did you A/B the special edition mix against the superbit Dts mix? No, and even you admitted that yourself. Words without the action are just words.

"Overall the Dts soundtrack sounded more coherent(as opposed to speaker to speaker with the DD tracks), warmer, and slightly more ambient than the DD tracks. The comparison was level matched."


Okay; if those were your observations. Perhaps running at absolute reference ear bleeding levels these discrepencies can be argued. But in general, the DTS mix to me sounded very similar to the Dolby Digital track from Columbia's original Special Edition, and to me, I am NOT recommending the upgrade to Superbit for its regular selling price in the $20-range for those who already own the first version because I noticed no "fall off your seat" improvements here.

I never run my system at reference level, its not necessary, and its bad on the ears. Nobody upgrades for fall off the seat differences. Subtle improvements will do. This title doesn't cost $20, its $9.99. For that I would trade any previous version to get the subtle improvements in the audio, and the significant improvement in picture.

"Different rooms, systems, and ears will yield different results."


Hence, my ears and my room told me these mixes sounded VERY VERY similar. I was not impressed with Sony's "Superbit Spider-Man" release.

Your room has no acoustical control, so it is compromising what you hear. Everything will sound simular when room reflections are not controlled. You cannot make any meaningful comparison with a system that is not calibrated, and a room with plenty of early reflections. That is why our results are not simular.

Funny Scott A Aruti, you are all over the net bud. Here, hometheaterdiscussion, and oh lookie at what I found

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/746107/an/0/page/0#746107

Seems you are doing there what you are doing here, but the moderator slammed the door shut on ya! Ain't no stoppin ya is there!

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-25-2005, 02:16 PM
"Dialog is also handle better by Dts, as I was able to hear the differences between the on location dialog, and the ADR recorded in post. The ADR recordist also used slightly different eq at times, even with the same voice. "

hery sir ttt,
there is nothing worse than crappy adr... (ok, well jumping on a bike with the seat missing is worse, but still...) i guess when it's done right, you never notice it, but it is so obivous when done wrong. from a soundman's pov, i understand the logic of having a clean track. but having been on the other side of the mic, it is really tough to replicate dialogue standing in a booth watching yourself and hearing the playback! especially when your voice is tweaked from turning and speaking back over your shoulder and having to replicate the same vocal intonations. ugh! frustrations galore (adr sucks). i've been miked up with lavaliers, had shotguns inches away, and still need to go back in later for adr.

they have noise cancelling headphones, but do they have mics that isolate vocals over ambient noise? or shotguns that can isolate a few feet only of sound? (is that even possible?) there are thsoe sweet directional sennheiser shotguns, but how about a ltd distance shotgun? now that would be a sweet invention! (heard it here first, i get the patent! haha!)

i heard that nearly ALL of the law & order EXT's are looped in post. now that's impressive becuase it wouldn't have guessed it while watching the show.

peace
k2

Kam, the more I work on the acoustics of my room, and upgrade my system, the more I am hearing some undesireable things within a soundtrack. The is especially true of the older Dolby digital soundtracks, where I can hear low frequency bumps as the dubber switches in and out during mixing. I can hear the fact that they used either different eq or different microphones for the same actor. Tape hiss occasionally shows up, and many times the dialog doesn't match the scene. The Haunted had spoken dialog in a large room, and there were no trace of echo's or reverb in the voice. Now dang, you know if you are speaking in a large room with high ceilings and plenty of smooth walls you will hear some kind of echo.

I have however heard some real soundtrack gems like Sky Captain and the world of Tomorrow. Excellent well done soundtrack. The music is VERY well recorded, and they did a excellent job of transporting you to every scene through the generous use of the surroundfield.

Lexmark3200
08-25-2005, 02:22 PM
"You are trying to hedge here."

No Im not, that is YOUR interpretation of a human being's meanings and actions. And it's incorrect.

"These are your words."

Yeah, so, whats your point? THATS what I found.

"This is not vague as you use the word common also."

What?

"The facts, Dts is never hotter than DD."

Oh no? THEN WHY DOES EVERY SINGLE HOME THEATER WEBSITE claim that DTS mixes are recorded three decibels higher than Dolby ones of counterpart stature? Why does DTS claim that THEMSELVES then?

"Since you say this is what your EARS told you, I would get them tested if I were you."

You are in NO position to suggest that because you're completely wrong about my hearing and I know what I heard.

"I need to add COUNTLESS co-reviewers on the list of the many vagarities you often list as sources."

Just more nonsense to try and prove to the world that you are better than they are.....somehow......although I HAVE discussed this issue with other reviewers; how am I supposed to prove that to you via computer? You pull that one out of your ass and you'll get the Pulitzer this year.

"Considering that you use in ceiling speakers(which are flawed no matter what)"

Really? Says who? You? Now lets move on because THAT'S a joke......

"I can understand why you cannot ascertain any differences. Maybe a upgrade to real speakers would help out here."

They ARE real speakers no matter what YOU say. And it doesnt really matter in this case because I heard these two mixes back to back on speakers that were sitting at ear level just to the edges of a couch and I received the same results.

"I have looked at at least 8 different sites for reviews on this title. All agree that the Dts audio sound slightly better than the DD one. I think we all agree that the differences are small but noticeable as it should be. Nobody is following your lead by claiming they sound exactly alike."

Who cares if someone is FOLLOWING MY LEAD......I'm telling it like it is, that they sound VERY MUCH alike, and don't use words here that I didn't.

"What I am describing is not punch(even though that is apparent). What I am describing is called refinement and resolution. Big difference"

And what I am claiming is that the dialogue had more PUNCH to it. Big deal about your refinement and resolution; that may have been there but the overall point was that the dialogue seemed to be improved on the DTS track.

"The Dolby mix on the superbit sounds better than the Dolby mix on the special edition, the special edition mix does not even come close to the Dts soundtrack on the superbit version."

I dont have any comment about the Dolby mix on the SUPERBIT disc-----but you are 100 percent wrong about the DTS mix being compared to the Special Edition's Dolby Digital track.

"How do you know that consumer won't here the wall reflections coming from the score? I don't expect that your system would pick them up, but you have no idea the resolution of others system. Did you A/B the special edition mix against the superbit Dts mix? No, and even you admitted that yourself. Words without the action are just words."

More useless rhetoric.......blah blah blah......the truth is you dont want to admit to me that both soundtracks sound very alike just out of pride when you know they do.

"I never run my system at reference level, its not necessary, and its bad on the ears."

Wrong and COMPLETELY idiotic in terms of a statement when you're reviewing DVDs----the first comments I usually get from people who write in are "were you listening to this at reference level? That could have made a difference....."

"Nobody upgrades for fall off the seat differences."

Some do. Who are YOU to say NOBODY does?

"Subtle improvements will do."

According to WHO?

"This title doesn't cost $20, its $9.99. For that I would trade any previous version to get the subtle improvements in the audio, and the significant improvement in picture."

I KNOW THAT......BUT THE TITLE WAS $22 ON A STICKER PRICE AT MY BEST BUY STORE, so previously, IT WAS 22 BUCKS so what are you talking about? 22 dollars is NOT worth the so-called "improvements" you claim are made here. NO WAY.

"Funny Scott A Aruti, you are all over the net bud. Here, hometheaterdiscussion, and oh lookie at what I found

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/746107/an/0/page/0#746107

Seems you are doing there what you are doing here, but the moderator slammed the door shut on ya! Ain't no stoppin ya is there!"

I know who the moderator is there, BUD, and you are your little co-hort Mr. Porterhouse can continue to do what you do but it WILL be handled one of these days, believe me. What I am doing here.....thats a funny statement.....WHAT am I doing "here"?

Your threats, actions and intentions fear me not and believe me are being handled privately for harassment purposes.

Keep it up, buddy......

godfatherofsoul
08-25-2005, 03:43 PM
"You are trying to hedge here."

No Im not, that is YOUR interpretation of a human being's meanings and actions. And it's incorrect.

"These are your words."

Yeah, so, whats your point? THATS what I found.

"This is not vague as you use the word common also."

What?

"The facts, Dts is never hotter than DD."

Oh no? THEN WHY DOES EVERY SINGLE HOME THEATER WEBSITE claim that DTS mixes are recorded three decibels higher than Dolby ones of counterpart stature? Why does DTS claim that THEMSELVES then?

"Since you say this is what your EARS told you, I would get them tested if I were you."

You are in NO position to suggest that because you're completely wrong about my hearing and I know what I heard.

"I need to add COUNTLESS co-reviewers on the list of the many vagarities you often list as sources."

Just more nonsense to try and prove to the world that you are better than they are.....somehow......although I HAVE discussed this issue with other reviewers; how am I supposed to prove that to you via computer? You pull that one out of your ass and you'll get the Pulitzer this year.

"Considering that you use in ceiling speakers(which are flawed no matter what)"

Really? Says who? You? Now lets move on because THAT'S a joke......

"I can understand why you cannot ascertain any differences. Maybe a upgrade to real speakers would help out here."

They ARE real speakers no matter what YOU say. And it doesnt really matter in this case because I heard these two mixes back to back on speakers that were sitting at ear level just to the edges of a couch and I received the same results.

"I have looked at at least 8 different sites for reviews on this title. All agree that the Dts audio sound slightly better than the DD one. I think we all agree that the differences are small but noticeable as it should be. Nobody is following your lead by claiming they sound exactly alike."

Who cares if someone is FOLLOWING MY LEAD......I'm telling it like it is, that they sound VERY MUCH alike, and don't use words here that I didn't.

"What I am describing is not punch(even though that is apparent). What I am describing is called refinement and resolution. Big difference"

And what I am claiming is that the dialogue had more PUNCH to it. Big deal about your refinement and resolution; that may have been there but the overall point was that the dialogue seemed to be improved on the DTS track.

"The Dolby mix on the superbit sounds better than the Dolby mix on the special edition, the special edition mix does not even come close to the Dts soundtrack on the superbit version."

I dont have any comment about the Dolby mix on the SUPERBIT disc-----but you are 100 percent wrong about the DTS mix being compared to the Special Edition's Dolby Digital track.

"How do you know that consumer won't here the wall reflections coming from the score? I don't expect that your system would pick them up, but you have no idea the resolution of others system. Did you A/B the special edition mix against the superbit Dts mix? No, and even you admitted that yourself. Words without the action are just words."

More useless rhetoric.......blah blah blah......the truth is you dont want to admit to me that both soundtracks sound very alike just out of pride when you know they do.

"I never run my system at reference level, its not necessary, and its bad on the ears."

Wrong and COMPLETELY idiotic in terms of a statement when you're reviewing DVDs----the first comments I usually get from people who write in are "were you listening to this at reference level? That could have made a difference....."

"Nobody upgrades for fall off the seat differences."

Some do. Who are YOU to say NOBODY does?

"Subtle improvements will do."

According to WHO?

"This title doesn't cost $20, its $9.99. For that I would trade any previous version to get the subtle improvements in the audio, and the significant improvement in picture."

I KNOW THAT......BUT THE TITLE WAS $22 ON A STICKER PRICE AT MY BEST BUY STORE, so previously, IT WAS 22 BUCKS so what are you talking about? 22 dollars is NOT worth the so-called "improvements" you claim are made here. NO WAY.

"Funny Scott A Aruti, you are all over the net bud. Here, hometheaterdiscussion, and oh lookie at what I found

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/746107/an/0/page/0#746107

Seems you are doing there what you are doing here, but the moderator slammed the door shut on ya! Ain't no stoppin ya is there!"

I know who the moderator is there, BUD, and you are your little co-hort Mr. Porterhouse can continue to do what you do but it WILL be handled one of these days, believe me. What I am doing here.....thats a funny statement.....WHAT am I doing "here"?

Your threats, actions and intentions fear me not and believe me are being handled privately for harassment purposes.

Keep it up, buddy......

I'll join the fun... DTS is less compressed than Dolby Digital - did you know that or did some of the nameless "other reveiwers" forget to mention that to you? When are you going to name these "other reveiwers"? I laugh when I see a new review posted by you because I know as soon as someone disagrees with you, you are going to jump all over him.
All people have tried to get you to realize is that sound is open to as many different interpretations as there are ears listening to that sound. My system is far from reference quality and my listening conditions are far from ideal - AS ARE YOURS! A Mitsubishi Medallion series is not on the same level as the Diamond series and your use of in-ceiling surrounds do not lend themselves well to hearing the same type of detail you would even with direct-radiating surrounds.
I don't claim to have even half of the knowledge of some the people on this board, but YOU should REALIZE when a SOUND ENGINEER offers his OPINION or ADVICE that it might be WISE to PAY ATTENTION! Give up the attitude that you and these "other reveiwers" are always right. You might just become a productive member of this board - but I doubt that after reveiwiing your past history.

Cheers

Lexmark3200
08-25-2005, 03:51 PM
I'll join the fun... DTS is less compressed than Dolby Digital - did you know that or did some of the nameless "other reveiwers" forget to mention that to you? When are you going to name these "other reveiwers"? I laugh when I see a new review posted by you because I know as soon as someone disagrees with you, you are going to jump all over him.
All people have tried to get you to realize is that sound is open to as many different interpretations as there are ears listening to that sound. My system is far from reference quality and my listening conditions are far from ideal - AS ARE YOURS! A Mitsubishi Medallion series is not on the same level as the Diamond series and your use of in-ceiling surrounds do not lend themselves well to hearing the same type of detail you would even with direct-radiating surrounds.
I don't claim to have even half of the knowledge of some the people on this board, but YOU should REALIZE when a SOUND ENGINEER offers his OPINION or ADVICE that it might be WISE to PAY ATTENTION! Give up the attitude that you and these "other reveiwers" are always right. You might just become a productive member of this board - but I doubt that after reveiwiing your past history.

Godfather of Soul.....who the HELL are you and where did YOU come from? I guess you got another one of those private e mails from the "man" who calls himself a "professional" just to join this little tirade.....whats even FUNNIER than what YOU said is the fact that if you go back and re read some of the posts, I do not disagree with everyone who disagrees with something I say, so you are lying. But perhaps you'll chase me around the internet too like that little infant you look up to does. LMFAO.

Godfather....lol......

godfatherofsoul
08-25-2005, 04:12 PM
Godfather of Soul.....who the HELL are you and where did YOU come from? I guess you got another one of those private e mails from the "man" who calls himself a "professional" just to join this little tirade.....whats even FUNNIER than what YOU said is the fact that if you go back and re read some of the posts, I do not disagree with everyone who disagrees with something I say, so you are lying. But perhaps you'll chase me around the internet too like that little infant you look up to does. LMFAO.

Godfather....lol......

I have NOT received any PRIVATE e-mails - God, your habit of capitalizing things for emphasis is annoying! I don't feel the need to chase anyone around the internet - I actually have a job and a family that I devote a lot of time to - but I feel the need to call an idiot an idiot.
You claim to work for any number of places but the only one you'll name is Home Theater Magazine. You claim to speak to other reveiwers but won't name them. When are you going to just suck it up and tell us who you work for? If you are a free-lance journalist - I use that word loosely with you because most journalists accept criticism - just say so. I have a journalism degree and I had to take a class in ethics. You must have skipped that one because ethics means you conduct yourself with some dignity and respect.
As for my name, it is just that. A name. When you stoop to that level of childish behavior, you lose any credibility you might ever hope to gain.

Cheers

JSE
08-25-2005, 05:31 PM
.....................


Owwwww........ Hiiit Maeeeeeeee!

Sorry, had to do it. It's out of my system now. Carry on. :D

JSE