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Lexmark3200
08-21-2005, 01:41 AM
"Mark my words........this war will not be fought on some distant battlefield but amongst us.....amongst our homes......"
-Mel Gibson, The Patriot

With the hot topic that is the Superbit Supersale at Best Buy stores across the nation, and in keeping with reviewing some of the titles I have picked up during this buy to replace the original versions I had owned (and subsequently sold today), I have come to a curious (somewhat) conclusion, my friends, which was a bit disheartening.......I am beginning to believe that in the case of SOME titles, this Superbit "technology" is a bit of a scam in certain aspects. While there is no denying that $9.99 is definitely a great price for a supposedly razor-sharp video transfer over a given standard DVD title along with having the choice of either a Dolby Digital OR DTS 5.1 soundtrack to go along with those visuals, I am finding, that with CERTAIN Columbia titles, there hasn't been much of an improvement going up to the Superbit version of these specific films --- for what a Superbit title would USUALLY cost you over the price of a "standard" version of said title.

This has happened in two back to back comparison cases for me; once with Michael Bay's Bad Boys II (which I'll get an official review up for as soon as I watch it from absolute beginning to end) and again with Roland Emmerich's The Patriot watched tonight --- both of these being Superbit replacements for the original "Special Edition" versions I previously owned. The Patriot is actually packaged part of Columbia's SUPERBIT DELUXE line of titles, which was specifically designed to cater to home theater audio and video enthusiasts who want their cake and eat it too -- that is to say, they demand the video and audio quality a "Superbit transfer" supposedly offers, AS WELL AS the extras found on some of their Special Edition counterparts; Sony responded by releasing these SUPERBIT DELUXE editions (which don't exist for EVERY Superbit title, keep in mind) which packages two discs in the keepcase --- one for just the film transfer, which frees up space for audio and video breathing, and one for the extra features. It seems as though this was a good time to be a home theater surround sound junkie, as long as some of your favorite titles came cranked from Columbia/TriStar, indeed getting titles WITH DTS AND Dolby soundtracks, as well as an extra disc with special features......if the title was part of the SUPERBIT DELUXE line.

I am not going to delve into the plot of Emmerich's The Patriot again, as I did that with my original review of Columbia's initial Special Edition release, which was mighty impressive; to discuss this plot simply leads to one place: we can all agree this film was historically inaccurate in more than one place, but for those of you who need a quick summary before I begin with the Superbit technical results, here it is; there is no doubt that this film plays right along the lines of Gladiator or even another Mel Gibson male revenge fantasy, Braveheart, in that this is a tale of a man driven to the brink of revenge madness for the murder of some of his children (this didn't apply to Braveheart, but you get my drift).

Set in the time of the Revolutionary War when the "American" colonies were fighting the British for control of places like South Carolina, Mel Gibson portrays Benjamin Martin, a soldier of the French and Indian Wars who has given up on being a "patriot" as the British begin to march into the American colonies. Gibson's character is simply finished with fighting and finds no moral grounding in it --- that is until an evil commander of an elite British squad (Jason Isaacs) takes the life of one of his sons, kidnaps another (Heath Ledger) and subsequently kills him, too. From here, the man responsible for Independence Day and The Day After Tomorrow takes this film into a typical father-gets-revenge tale that, although admittingly addicting, gets downright historically skewed --- ask any history major graduate what they felt about this film and how "accurate" it was, and you'll see exactly what I mean. Aside from some sprinkles of historical foundings, such as the "Lord Cornwallis" character, this is pretty much Gladiator to the backdrop of the Revolutionary War.

Columbia's original Special Edition release of The Patriot, along the same lines as their two disc original release of Bad Boys II was sensational, boasting an eye popping 2:35:1 transfer (in most spots) and an outrageously active Dolby Digital 5.1 mix. It almost seems --- and if you read reviews on other sites you will notice professional reviewers mentioning the same words --- as if Superbit treatment for these two titles was completely unnecessary and redundant and even "senseless" as some reviewers have called it because the original releases were so stellar in many places......and I have to agree after watching both of these titles in Superbit (I haven't yet finished all of Bad Boys II so that's why you don't have a review from me up as of yet).

I was very hard pressed to find video OR audio differences between Columbia's original releases of these titles and their Superbit counterparts, making me wonder if the upgrade was really necessary, as well as question the validity of Sony's marketing gimmick here with regard to this "Superbit technology." Now, don't get me wrong, there have been instances where I was able to hear and see differences, as was the case with Black Hawk Down, in which case the DTS mix on the Superbit version just gave that film a whole new lease on life and opened up the entire audio spectrum according my ears when comparing it to the original Dolby 5.1 track, and perhaps the same could be said about Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2, but in the case The Patriot, I was not so smitten with difference variations between the Superbit Deluxe version and the Special Edition which I sold off today.

In the last issue of Home Theater magazine, there is a comment made by a member of the editorial staff who I know personally, regarding the DTS mix on the Superbit version of this film which he wrote for a "Top 100 DVDs of All Time" roundup piece which concentrated on "Best Audio" choices for DVDs out on the market now --- he referenced The Patriot - Superbit Deluxe as his new "go-to low end reference disc" and boasted about the LFE on this track; to be honest, I detected a slight, if any, sonic difference between the original Dolby 5.1 release --- even LFE wise --- and this Superbit Deluxe edition.

Disc One of this Superbit Deluxe version of The Patriot contains the transfer itself, given its own DVD for audio and video quality "improvements;" the box (housed beneath the typical metallic-looking slipcase announcing this is a SUPERBIT DELUXE selection) proclaims the same thing the original version did: that this is a 2:35:1 "Digitally Mastered Anamorphic Widescreen Transfer." Under heavy scrutiny, friends, this transfer, to me, looks no different from Columbia's original release --- which was nice to begin with, bringing out the lush greens of the rolling Carolina hillsides and such, yet the same characteristics I picked up in the review of the Special Edition reared their heads here once again: there is still that somewhat "smoky," "hazy" look to this transfer in general, and in certain spots you can make out some digital artifacting in the background colors and sets when the scene is close-up on an actor (such as when Isaacs is speaking with the Cornwallis character); if you look closely, you will see where there is some "fuzziness" in the background of these scenes which didn't seem to "go away" within this Superbit "high bit rate transfer process optimizing video quality" scheme which Columbia likes to splash all over their press materials for these products. This is in no way a transfer garnished with negative characteristics --- but to my eyes, this did not look ANY different or ANY better, for that matter, than Columbia's original release.

I found the same to be true with the disc's DTS mix; Columbia's original Special Edition version boasted a VERY active Dolby Digital 5.1 track that utilized the surround spectrum brilliantly and aggressively --- bullets, cries from wounded soldiers, yells and cannon blasts filled every channel and came from every direction, and my suspicions on how Columbia could have improved this soundtrack even with DTS were confirmed when I ran the track tonight: I couldn't detect much improvement over the Dolby Digital version and the same awesome qualities that made the first version so enjoyable to listen to are still there on the DTS mix, making both tracks seem almost identical; still demo-worthy material is the scene when Gibson is attempting to rescue his kidnaped son (Ledger) and a fire fight begins between him, his two younger sons, and the British soldiers who have taken Ledger hostage.....this is some of the most aggressive use of a 5.1 soundstage that you will experience, as musket fire, cries and bullet ricochets explode in an all-to-real delivery around you. While the Dolby track renders this very, very nicely, the DTS mix, perhaps, does what is expected of it: ups the decibel number a notch or two in terms of punch and volume, but that's about it. What I did notice was a clearer, louder dialogue channel on the DTS track, but I did NOT experience what my cohort at Home Theater did, with regard to the cannon blasts delivering massive doses of much deeper bass on this Superbit version --- my system exhibited the same level of boom that was present on the Dolby Digital Special Edition version.

Disc Two of this Superbit Deluxe package includes the extras that were found on the Special Edition release, and these were:

-Visual Effects Interactive Featurette
-Battlefield Featurette
-"The Art of War"
-"The True Patriots" Featurette
-Conceptual Art-to-Film Comparisons
-Deleted Scene
-Photo Galleries
-Theatrical Trailers (a nice touch for a Superbit release)
-Filmographies

Again, I don't really see or hear how this Superbit version improved much of anything from Columbia's already stellar original release of this title, as I found after watching only half of Bad Boys II; the DTS audio seems to be on par with the Dolby Digital surround mix, and the video transfer exhibits the same characteristics my Special Edition version did --- to MY eyes, at least.

This is beginning to make me wonder about the validity of the Superbit promise to hardcore home theater enthusiast hobbyists; and, like I said, if you do a search online of some other reviews for these titles, you will see the issue of "unnecessary" and "redundant" being discussed in terms of the need for these PARTICULAR Superbit titles --- that being The Patriot and Bad Boys II, both of which already boasted excellent original releases. Perhaps the mistake lies in us, the consumers, for actually succumbing to double dipping for these titles, as I was suckered into, but at any rate, if any of you wish to discuss any different findings or the same with regard to The Patriot's Superbit Deluxe release, fire away!

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-23-2005, 04:11 AM
This is in no way a transfer garnished with negative characteristics --- but to my eyes, this did not look ANY different or ANY better, for that matter, than Columbia's original release.

You probably need to look a little closer. If you do, you will find quite a bit of subtle differences picture wise between both titles. Check out Bjorn Roy's VERY careful analysis complete with screen shots that show there is a very definately.

http://www.videophile.info/Review/Patriot/Patriot_01.htm


I was very hard pressed to find video OR audio differences between Columbia's original releases of these titles and their Superbit counterparts, making me wonder if the upgrade was really necessary, as well as question the validity of Sony's marketing gimmick here with regard to this "Superbit technology."

I think the problem with your reviews audio wise is that you tend to listen to louder scenes which makes it easy to NOT hear differences. If you want to hear the difference between the original release and the new Dts superbit soundtrack, listen to the music, and some of the less whiz bang effects, such as the blowing of the wind in the background. The soundstage on the Dts version is slighly wider on both the screen channels and the surrounds. Bullets fly from one channel to the next with more completion on the Dts mix than on the DD mix. The Dts mix overall sounds more natural and organic than the DD mix.

While the differences are subtle in both the audio and video, they are there. Whether these subtle differences are worthwhile to the average joe remains to be seen.

Lexmark3200
08-23-2005, 09:28 AM
"You probably need to look a little closer. If you do, you will find quite a bit of subtle differences picture wise between both titles. Check out Bjorn Roy's VERY careful analysis complete with screen shots that show there is a very definately.

http://www.videophile.info/Review/Patriot/Patriot_01.htm"

I have seen these screen shots and still, on MY screen and to MY eyes, there is very little to recommend upgrading this title to Superbit for --- I watched the disc for the THIRD time again last night after owning it and the same results apply. I am NOT the only one who feels this way about the similarities between Columbia's Special Edition release and this new Superbit release as I have been discussing this in multiple threads on multiple sites; most everyone who owns both versions agrees that there is little to be seen in terms of improvement. Here's one such professional reviewer's thoughts on THIS title:

My only gripe with this transfer is that due to the large amount of grain in the film stock, a fair share of digital noise reduction (DNR) seems to have been applied, probably already in the film-to-HD transfer. This leads to its own share of artefacts, like pumping and shimmering in some scenes. They could have been a bit more careful in that departement. But i am not sure it would have been possible to put this long grainy movie on one disc without any DNR at all. And only a few hardcore videophiles like me would have preferred a version with completely maxed out bitrate on 2 discs/sides.

And here's another one regarding the video, which backs up what I originally said:

The film's theatrical aspect ratio of 2.35:1 is presented on both the original and the Superbit release in anamorphic video. Much to my surprise, I cannot detect a worthwhile improvement in the video from one release to the other. After comparing these two DVDs on my eight-foot wide 16:9 projection screen, I retreated to the computer for some competitive screencaps. I compared a half dozen scenes, and I'm forced to conclude that this is the first Superbit DVD I've seen that is almost indistinguishable from its predecessor.


"I think the problem with your reviews"

Well, lets begin with this. There's no problem as I see it.

"audio wise is that you tend to listen to louder scenes which makes it easy to NOT hear differences. If you want to hear the difference between the original release and the new Dts superbit soundtrack, listen to the music, and some of the less whiz bang effects, such as the blowing of the wind in the background."

I sure have, and THE PATRIOT is one of those titles --- audio wise --- in which you MUST listen for quieter moments and passages, such as when characters are speaking amongst the backdrop of birds chirping or the cannon blasts off in the distance, which some reviewers claim lie "deeper" within the DTS mix....this may indeed be true.....the SOFTER effects may have in fact been improved and are more detailed on this DTS track, however, I am stating that the previous demo-worthy scenes such as when Gibson is shooting it out with the guys who have kidnapped his son (Ledger) STILL retain their stellar characteristics as on the Dolby Digital version, with PERHAPS the surrounds appearing a BIT more forceful; you STILL get the cries, shouts and gunfire from the channels in a very aggressive manner, yet the DTS mix doesn't seem to "improve upon" much being that these were already STELLAR sounding in Dolby Digital. HOWEVER, rewatching the title for the THIRD time last night at closer to reference levels, I can say there may be a tighter LFE response on this track over the Dolby variant. Otherwise, I can't agree with my friend at Home Theater Magazine who claimed this was his new "go-to low-end reference disc" for showing off his subwoofer because I didnt recall the bass becoming all that more pronounced even during cannon blasts----although, as stated, they may have become TIGHTER in character.

"The soundstage on the Dts version is slighly wider on both the screen channels and the surrounds. Bullets fly from one channel to the next with more completion on the Dts mix than on the DD mix. The Dts mix overall sounds more natural and organic than the DD mix."

At closer to reference levels, I was finding this above statement more layered in truth than the FIRST time I watched the Superbit Deluxe; however, I still contend that these tracks sound awfully similar upon first listen. Other reviewers have agreed with me; if you give me a moment I will clip some of their findings from other sites and share them.....

"While the differences are subtle in both the audio and video, they are there. Whether these subtle differences are worthwhile to the average joe remains to be seen."

Most folks I have been discussing this with on DVD fanatic sites are saying that they are not seeing the increase in performance on the Superbit Deluxe version and are hence not upgrading. If it were up to me, and I could do it all over again, I would probably keep my original Special Edition release....

But.....there is something to consider here......being that this was a SUPERBIT DELUXE release, we are getting that DTS track PLUS a second disc of extras that were included from the Special Edition, so the dilemma becomes......isn't it worth upgrading just for that alone?

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-23-2005, 10:11 AM
"You probably need to look a little closer. If you do, you will find quite a bit of subtle differences picture wise between both titles. Check out Bjorn Roy's VERY careful analysis complete with screen shots that show there is a very definately.

http://www.videophile.info/Review/Patriot/Patriot_01.htm"

I have seen these screen shots and still, on MY screen and to MY eyes, there is very little to recommend upgrading this title to Superbit for --- I watched the disc for the THIRD time again last night after owning it and the same results apply. I am NOT the only one who feels this way about the similarities between Columbia's Special Edition release and this new Superbit release as I have been discussing this in multiple threads on multiple sites; most everyone who owns both versions agrees that there is little to be seen in terms of improvement. Here's one such professional reviewer's thoughts on THIS title


My only gripe with this transfer is that due to the large amount of grain in the film stock, a fair share of digital noise reduction (DNR) seems to have been applied, probably already in the film-to-HD transfer. This leads to its own share of artefacts, like pumping and shimmering in some scenes. They could have been a bit more careful in that departement. But i am not sure it would have been possible to put this long grainy movie on one disc without any DNR at all. And only a few hardcore videophiles like me would have preferred a version with completely maxed out bitrate on 2 discs/sides.

Look at the pictures he posted. You stated that there is no difference between the two. Well the pictures he selected show that there is indeed differences between the two. He picked only a couple of examples, but I know for a fact there are alot more to be found if you look CAREFULLY. His comments are based on just the superbit version, and his comments even he admits are just splitting hairs.


And here's another one regarding the video, which backs up what I originally said:

The film's theatrical aspect ratio of 2.35:1 is presented on both the original and the Superbit release in anamorphic video. Much to my surprise, I cannot detect a worthwhile improvement in the video from one release to the other. After comparing these two DVDs on my eight-foot wide 16:9 projection screen, I retreated to the computer for some competitive screencaps. I compared a half dozen scenes, and I'm forced to conclude that this is the first Superbit DVD I've seen that is almost indistinguishable from its predecessor.



Words are cheap, Bjorn's website SHOWS the differences between the two releases. Anyone can say they can't see something(limitations with their vision) however Bjorn shows the areas that differences are discernable, and shows with arrows where the differences are EXACTLY. That speaks volumes over words.

Bjorns comments are as follows:


The other advantage of the SB release is that the compression is much cleaner. The old non-SB version had many shots where compression artefacts like MPEG blocking, posterization and mosquito noise intruded the picture in a disturbing manner. The reason for this is, that the movie has many very grainy shots and the bitrate simply wasn't sufficient on the old release. On the SB release, the higher bitrate IS sufficient to capture these grainy shots without many compression artefacts and that although there is much more detail (and thus more grain) in the SB version to begin with. I had my worries there.

So his opinion diverges from yours, and he shows proof of why there is a differences between yours and his opinion.

Lexmark3200
08-23-2005, 10:16 AM
Look at the pictures he posted. You stated that there is no difference between the two. Well the pictures he selected show that there is indeed differences between the two. He picked only a couple of examples, but I know for a fact there are alot more to be found if you look CAREFULLY. His comments are based on just the superbit version, and his comments even he admits are just splitting hairs.



Qualifing word "ALMOST". That does not mean not at all, it just means the differences are very subtle. On his wesite he outlines those differences.

Read these words very carefully:

I compared a half dozen scenes, and I'm forced to conclude that this is the first Superbit DVD I've seen that is almost indistinguishable from its predecessor.

So if he said ALMOST and I didn't, does that mean the world is coming to an end? No, it means that BASICALLY we found the same things --- that in general, there's not much that makes this Superbit Deluxe version all that more special than the Special Edition (no pun intended) that would warrant a re-purchase for the average enthusiast; of course, I was buying it for the DTS track, but even in the audio, I found no measure of DRASTIC audible differences between the DTS and Dolby Digital mixes.....the original release's Dolby 5.1 was ALREADY near-reference grade, in my opinion, atmosphere-wise, and the DTS didn't improve upon that all too much; perhaps in very subtle ways as you and I agreed on, but nothing that would make one stand up and proclaim "Wow! You gotta listen to this SUPERBIT version of THE PATRIOT in DTS! Holy ****balls Batman!"

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-23-2005, 10:52 AM
Read these words very carefully:

I compared a half dozen scenes, and I'm forced to conclude that this is the first Superbit DVD I've seen that is almost indistinguishable from its predecessor.

So if he said ALMOST and I didn't, does that mean the world is coming to an end? No, it means that BASICALLY we found the same things --- that in general, there's not much that makes this Superbit Deluxe version all that more special than the Special Edition (no pun intended) that would warrant a re-purchase for the average enthusiast; of course, I was buying it for the DTS track, but even in the audio, I found no measure of DRASTIC audible differences between the DTS and Dolby Digital mixes.....the original release's Dolby 5.1 was ALREADY near-reference grade, in my opinion, atmosphere-wise, and the DTS didn't improve upon that all too much; perhaps in very subtle ways as you and I agreed on, but nothing that would make one stand up and proclaim "Wow! You gotta listen to this SUPERBIT version of THE PATRIOT in DTS! Holy ****balls Batman!"

You are pointing to words, I am pointing to pictures. Pictures=a thousand words. Pictures=proof. Words=opinion.

Lexmark3200
08-23-2005, 11:00 AM
I am simply supplying what some others have found in defense of my findings regarding the video (I do not believe I supplied any other reviewers' findings regarding the DTS track, which I have to tell you, was also agreed upon on many sites that there is NOT a night and day difference between the Superbit and Special Edition doing A/B tests of the DD and DTS tracks).

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-23-2005, 01:23 PM
I am simply supplying what some others have found in defense of my findings regarding the video (I do not believe I supplied any other reviewers' findings regarding the DTS track, which I have to tell you, was also agreed upon on many sites that there is NOT a night and day difference between the Superbit and Special Edition doing A/B tests of the DD and DTS tracks).

Why does it have to be night and day? You are looking for extremes as a distinction, and that is not really necessary. Also, and while you are quoting someone finish what he says.

Have a look at the side-by-side comparison of a printed page found at 7:29. Notice that within these cropped and magnified images, there is only the slightest opening of the letter "a" and the diameter of the hole on the letter "o" is essentially the same. This would indicate that there is no appreciable improvement on resolution. I confirmed this in comparison after comparison. This is either a tribute to the original work found on the 2000 DVD or an unfortunate example of a great idea not yielding expected results. Is the difference detectable? Yes. Do I prefer the Superbit release? I believe I do.

This is the part you choose to omit. He says the difference IS detectable, and he believes that he likes the superbit release moreso. Never skip stuff just to make your point. It doesn't really make your point.

You never A/B any tracks. Your review is only of one track, either Dts (if offered) or Dolby. I have never seen any comments about level matched testing of the two in your reviews. Cliff is only commenting on horizontal resolution, but overall you must take a look at both horizontal and vertical resolution before you can determine which offers better resolution of the other. If he had checked both as Bjorn did, he would have found the same improvement as Bjorn did.

Lastly, Cliff checked words on a printed page. This is relatively easy to code, and is not a very good gauge of image quality. What needs to be checked for resolution improvement is scenes with color, fine detail, and or movement as Bjorn did. Scenes and movement are much more difficult to code as there is fewer redundancy that a MPEG coder can lock on to.

Lexmark3200
08-23-2005, 01:45 PM
Oh boy people......you see what I mean about his bi-polarism? THIS is where I had prescribed the Lithium for him as he again begins to attack someone who he feels is "technically beneath him" when all I am doing is giving all of you an honest, no bull**** assesment of the Superbit Deluxe version of this film.....

Lets sum it up this way and forget what you are reading from The Terrible one above: there are LITTLE differences to be found between the Superbit Deluxe edition of The Patriot and Columbia's original two disc release because the first one was nearly stellar, if not moreso than that. The Dolby Digital audio was wonderfully encompassing and the video, while color-rich most of the time, was never really reference grade to begin with. This comparison between the two versions of the Patriot has been discussed with others by me outside of the examples I gave The Terrible One --- and they ALL agree that the DTS mix does NOT add a more potent kick to the soundtrack of this DVD (and if it does it comes in the form of tighter bass and a decibel or two of added volume, as to be expected of a DTS mix) and that the visual quality is of no better characteristic than Columbia's first release.

Trust me on this one. If you own the first two disc Special Edition, you can keep it unless you simply MUST have that DTS track --- which I thought I needed but found the Dolby Digital audio scheme to be just as encompassing. The decision for you, friends, comes down to this: do you want to upgrade to this Superbit DELUXE version because you'll get a DTS audio track AND an extras disc containing the making-of featurettes from the first release?

Oh-----and one more thing-----he accuses me of not A/B-ing my audio portion reviews, which is for the most part correct as I have ADMITTED to Kelsci leaving it up to people like Kelsci himself to do so because he seems better at it ----- but in THIS particular case, people....and BELIEVE ME AND LISTEN TO ME......I HAD the original release of The Patriot which contained the Dolby Digital version to COMPARE to the DTS mix on the Superbit Deluxe, and I'm telling you the results are almost identical-----and confirmed for me by others I have discussed this DVD with. There IS a tighter presence of LFE but the same demo worthy scenes are just as demo worthy in DTS-----you're STILL going to hear the cries and gunfire from every channel around you; the cannon blasts will still rattle your walls just a tad (I wouldnt call this a LFE heavy track as a friend of mine from Home Theater Magazine did), etc etc etc.....but the DTS mix seemed JUST as active and aggressive as the Dolby mix did in this case.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-23-2005, 02:51 PM
Oh boy people......you see what I mean about his bi-polarism? THIS is where I had prescribed the Lithium for him as he again begins to attack someone who he feels is "technically beneath him" when all I am doing is giving all of you an honest, no bull**** assesment of the Superbit Deluxe version of this film.....

Lets sum it up this way and forget what you are reading from The Terrible one above: there are LITTLE differences to be found between the Superbit Deluxe edition of The Patriot and Columbia's original two disc release because the first one was nearly stellar, if not moreso than that. The Dolby Digital audio was wonderfully encompassing and the video, while color-rich most of the time, was never really reference grade to begin with. This comparison between the two versions of the Patriot has been discussed with others by me outside of the examples I gave The Terrible One --- and they ALL agree that the DTS mix does NOT add a more potent kick to the soundtrack of this DVD (and if it does it comes in the form of tighter bass and a decibel or two of added volume, as to be expected of a DTS mix) and that the visual quality is of no better characteristic than Columbia's first release.

Trust me on this one. If you own the first two disc Special Edition, you can keep it unless you simply MUST have that DTS track --- which I thought I needed but found the Dolby Digital audio scheme to be just as encompassing. The decision for you, friends, comes down to this: do you want to upgrade to this Superbit DELUXE version because you'll get a DTS audio track AND an extras disc containing the making-of featurettes from the first release?

Oh-----and one more thing-----he accuses me of not A/B-ing my audio portion reviews, which is for the most part correct as I have ADMITTED to Kelsci leaving it up to people like Kelsci himself to do so because he seems better at it ----- but in THIS particular case, people....and BELIEVE ME AND LISTEN TO ME......I HAD the original release of The Patriot which contained the Dolby Digital version to COMPARE to the DTS mix on the Superbit Deluxe, and I'm telling you the results are almost identical-----and confirmed for me by others I have discussed this DVD with. There IS a tighter presence of LFE but the same demo worthy scenes are just as demo worthy in DTS-----you're STILL going to hear the cries and gunfire from every channel around you; the cannon blasts will still rattle your walls just a tad (I wouldnt call this a LFE heavy track as a friend of mine from Home Theater Magazine did), etc etc etc.....but the DTS mix seemed JUST as active and aggressive as the Dolby mix did in this case.

How could you A/B it if you knew which one was A, and which one was B? This has to be done blindly, and you are not capable of such comparison. Two, did you account for any dialog normalization offset? Did you check to see of the data streams are simular? What is the data rate for dd and Dts?

As confirmed by me and others

Once again the old phantom others, of which no one know who they are. Cliff Stephenson even said there were differences between the DD and Dts tracks with Dts getting the edge

Here is another that says the same thing. Also notice his comments on the video side as well.

http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ID=2601

You are reviewing DVD's on a compromised system(ceiling mounted speakers), how can your really hear fine details when the very nature of ceiling mounted speakers compromises imaging, and creates HRTE(head related transfer effects). How quiet is your listening room. Have you taken any steps to control external noise? Since I already know the answers to these questions, how do you think you can compare your results with somebody who has done all of these things?

No need to get personal, just answering the questions will do. Thanks!

Lexmark3200
08-23-2005, 02:58 PM
People......I HAD both versions of this title.....once owning the Special Edition of it and ROUTINELY demoing the Dolby Digital track on it and now owning the Superbit Deluxe with the DTS track.....I can HONESTLY tell all of you that the Dolby Digital AND DTS mixes sound awfully alike.....with perhaps some bass tightening on the DTS mix. This again, has been agreed upon by others I have discussed this issue with; they too are finding this "similarity" between the audio and video presentations on BOTH of Columbia's releases of this title. Trust me here. If you WANT to upgrade to the SUPERBIT DELUXE, by all means go for it because it DOES include the extra features found on the Special Edition PLUS the so-so DTS mix; however, you're missing nothing if you stick with your standard Special Edition version.

Enjoy!

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-23-2005, 03:05 PM
People......I HAD both versions of this title.....once owning the Special Edition of it and ROUTINELY demoing the Dolby Digital track on it and now owning the Superbit Deluxe with the DTS track.....I can HONESTLY tell all of you that the Dolby Digital AND DTS mixes sound awfully alike.....with perhaps some bass tightening on the DTS mix. This again, has been agreed upon by others I have discussed this issue with; they too are finding this "similarity" between the audio and video presentations on BOTH of Columbia's releases of this title. Trust me here. If you WANT to upgrade to the SUPERBIT DELUXE, by all means go for it because it DOES include the extra features found on the Special Edition PLUS the so-so DTS mix; however, you're missing nothing if you stick with your standard Special Edition version.

Enjoy!

Just as I figured. You cannot answer the questions but you want everyone to believe what you say. Okay.....I will leave you alone. But I just wanted you to know that you are as transparent as a water drop. Can you explain to me why a credentialed, professional reviewer is reviewing titles that have been around for years, as opposed to titles that are coming out. Most "professional" reviewers get early press copies, what happened with yours?

Have a great evening!!

Lexmark3200
08-23-2005, 03:14 PM
I am PISSING IN MY PANTS laughing at this folks....this is REAL comedy....."leaving me alone"....LOL....until he chases someone else around the internet like a child trying to discredit them.....

Remember what I told you (besides the prescription for Lithium for this man).....IF you purchase the Superbit Deluxe version of The Patriot, the differences will not indeed be night and day in the audio or video sections, and isn't that what you REALLY want to know? The readers of Home Theater Magazine sure did, as evidenced by a plethora of emails we received regarding the last issue and its "Top 100 DVDs Of All Time" roundup (which was subjective if you ask me).....although I STILL disagree with my editorial cohort who says that this should be the next low-end go-to disc to experiment with a subwoofer; I discussed this with him, and in retrospect (speaking of the DTS mix on the Patriot's Superbit Deluxe edition) he felt like that was a bit of an overstatement on his behalf----he actually believed the DTS mix on Master and Commander had more low end frequency kick!

Enjoy, friends! 10 bucks still isn't a lot to pay for this title IF you feel like upgrading OR if you haven't gotten around to buying this Hollywood take on the Revolutionary War which is in many places historically inaccurate.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-23-2005, 04:32 PM
I smell paranoia in here.....DJScotty, you must be close.

musicman1999
08-23-2005, 04:53 PM
just my 2 cents guys

this movie the discussion is about,the patriot,is not Lawrence of Arabia afterall.its a rental not a collector.dont get me wrong i rened it (superbit actually),found it to have a nice clear clean picture and good sound and was a nice evenings entertainment.but i am careful where i spend my hard earned money and never had the desire to buy this movie or even rent it again.
decent movie,just not worth all the fuss.
in my opinion that is

thanks
bill

Lexmark3200
08-24-2005, 09:04 AM
I smell paranoia in here.....DJScotty, you must be close.


The Lithium is calling......."take me! take me!"

Medication is the BEST route to this man's recovery.....I'll tell you that folks....if not, some kind of nursery school where he can chase children around like an infant ---- whoops----do they have computers to harass people with in nursery schools?

Doubtful..........

Lexmark3200
08-24-2005, 09:06 AM
just my 2 cents guys

this movie the discussion is about,the patriot,is not Lawrence of Arabia afterall.its a rental not a collector.dont get me wrong i rened it (superbit actually),found it to have a nice clear clean picture and good sound and was a nice evenings entertainment.but i am careful where i spend my hard earned money and never had the desire to buy this movie or even rent it again.
decent movie,just not worth all the fuss.
in my opinion that is

thanks
bill

Bill,

The discussion is NOT Lawrence of Arabia vs. The Patriot, and there ARE some of us who indeed feel The Patriot belongs in a DVD collection, I among them. I thought it was very entertaining, albeit historically inaccurate in many places that are easy to pinipoint if you WANT to get into the specifics of the layout.

JeffKnob
08-24-2005, 09:50 AM
Lex,

My opinion is that your reviews lose all credibility when you can't take any criticism. The personal attacks when you are questioned are also not cool.

You seem to only be able to backup your points with either what "others" say or with childish remarks. : (

That was my review of your reviews. : )

Lexmark3200
08-24-2005, 10:39 AM
Lex,

My opinion is that your reviews lose all credibility when you can't take any criticism. The personal attacks when you are questioned are also not cool.

You seem to only be able to backup your points with either what "others" say or with childish remarks. : (

That was my review of your reviews. : )

Thank you for your professional input Jeff; you have no idea what you are talking about here because you don't know the personal almost-to-the-point-of-killing-each-other history I have with this so-called "professional" which has NOTHING to do with ANY criticism or being able to TAKE any criticism; he and I BOTH know why he is doing what he is doing and you do not, fortunately for you.

If you feel that all I have to backup my points is by the remarks you give, so be it --- I receive PLENTY of positive comments about my DVD reviews from others on this site privately and publically, and can HONESTLY tell you that what you are reading in my reviews is what you will hear on your system. If you are so hell-bent on "proving me wrong" why dont you give me YOUR opinion of some of these titles and how they played back on YOUR system or did you come in here just to make an assinine statement which means, proves and points to nothing as above?

JSE
08-24-2005, 10:56 AM
and can HONESTLY tell you that what you are reading in my reviews is what you will hear on your system


You are a DVD Review GOD! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

LOL!

JSE

Lexmark3200
08-24-2005, 11:06 AM
You are a DVD Review GOD! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

LOL!

JSE

Well, well......thank you JSE.....I will indeed take that from you as a complement.....

LMFAO.......

musicman1999
08-24-2005, 05:04 PM
lex
i never said that patriot should be compared to lawrence of arabia.
that would be silly.i only brought up lawrence as an example of a classic,top ten of all time type of movie.which,in my opinion,the patriot was not.
i am sure many dont share my opinion and thats fine.the bueaty of having an opinion is that everyone is right and everyone is wrong depending on who you ask.
by the way keep up your reviews(i read them all)but a couple less paragraphs of story description would be better.your audio analysis often disagree with mine although if its a good film i find myself wrapped up in the story and pay less attention to the tech side.

thanks
bill

Sir Terrence the Terrible
08-25-2005, 05:50 AM
and can HONESTLY tell you that what you are reading in my reviews is what you will hear on your system.

YOu can actually make this guarantee?? Wow! So movies that you review on your system, in your room, with your ears, is going to sound exactly like my system, in my room, with my ears? Unlikely

I use both electonic and acoustical equalization in my room, do you? My rear speakers are bipolar and yours are in ceiling, are you sure the surroundfield will sound exactly alike? I use no bass management on my system, and you do, so can you be so sure they will sound exactly alike? My sound system was tuned using a RTA and has an overall system response that is a tight +-1.5db from 20-20khz, are you sure it will sound like you system that has no acoustical control, hasn't been tuned, and has a unknown broadband response?

Many of us here have a system that is quite different than yours, how can you make a guarantee like this? Just answer the question without getting personal. Thanks

noddin0ff
08-25-2005, 06:29 AM
You know, if The Patriot even approximated a good movie I'd enjoy this thread a lot more. Could we continue this very humorous shoot out on a movie worthy of it?

Lexmark3200
08-25-2005, 09:38 AM
"i never said that patriot should be compared to lawrence of arabia."

This wasnt made clear initially.

"that would be silly.i only brought up lawrence as an example of a classic,top ten of all time type of movie.which,in my opinion,the patriot was not."

Okay.

"i am sure many dont share my opinion and thats fine.the bueaty of having an opinion is that everyone is right and everyone is wrong depending on who you ask"

No----you are probably right in your opinion that Lawrence of Arabia is more influential of a piece of cinema than The Patriot will ever be; that can be taken as fact pretty much.

"by the way keep up your reviews(i read them all)but a couple less paragraphs of story description would be better.your audio analysis often disagree with mine although if its a good film i find myself wrapped up in the story and pay less attention to the tech side."

Thank you for taking the time to read them; but can I ask you-----where specifically does my audio analysis not compare to what you are finding? Can you give me an example?

Lexmark3200
08-25-2005, 09:42 AM
You know, if The Patriot even approximated a good movie I'd enjoy this thread a lot more. Could we continue this very humorous shoot out on a movie worthy of it?

With ignoring The Terrible One's comments above, Noddin, The Patriot WAS a good film --- it really was, the problem was the historical liberties (no pun intended) that were taken WAY too far by Emmerich with this; like I said in the review, just ask any historian what they thought of the "accuracies" so called portrayed in this picture and watch the look on their faces.....because I HAVE asked them......

This "humorous shoot out" as you so aptly named it, was supposed to concentrate on the "upgrade" recommendation to the title's Superbit Deluxe edition, which I found no great improvements in.

noddin0ff
08-25-2005, 11:35 AM
Noddin, The Patriot WAS a good film --- it really was

Ah, the ol' Fact vs. Opinion dilemma... I thought the Patriot was tedious, schmaltzy, and particularly egregious in trying to bolster sympathy for Gibson’s character by wrapping a simple revenge story in hokey patriotic themes. I felt like I was watching a bad retelling of The Last of the Mohicans. It was a well-produced bit of violent fluff, and generally I really enjoy violent fluff…and Mel Gibson. Not this time. The only part I enjoyed was the emotional bond Gibson portrayed with his family. In any other film that could have saved the movie. But that's just my opinion.

Lexmark3200
08-25-2005, 11:58 AM
Ah, the ol' Fact vs. Opinion dilemma... I thought the Patriot was tedious, schmaltzy, and particularly egregious in trying to bolster sympathy for Gibson’s character by wrapping a simple revenge story in hokey patriotic themes. I felt like I was watching a bad retelling of The Last of the Mohicans. It was a well-produced bit of violent fluff, and generally I really enjoy violent fluff|and Mel Gibson. Not this time. The only part I enjoyed was the emotional bond Gibson portrayed with his family. In any other film that could have saved the movie. But that's just my opinion.

Well, if that's your opinion, so be it.....I sure as **** enjoyed it and was able to ignore the historical inconsistencies for what they were.....a shortcoming of Emmerich's experience making films outside of the likes of Independence Day and Godzilla.

noddin0ff
08-25-2005, 12:15 PM
Ok, I'll bite...historical inconsistencies?

I didn't think the movie needed to rely on historical accuracy to be bad. I thought the same movie could have been done just as badly in any time period. But, I'm curious what the inconsistencies you repeatedly refer to ignoring are? And how were they 'taken WAY to far by Emmerich'?

Lexmark3200
08-25-2005, 12:51 PM
Noddin,

There is not enough bandwidth nor do I have enough energy --- honestly --- to explain to you why or how just so many things about that war were not accurate by the filmmakers, except for the fact that there WAS a Lord Cornwallis character in history during this time period; the entire "actions" depicted in this film by the "British soldiers" were inaccurate in terms of behavior --- the COSTUMING was right, but sit down with anyone who has graduated with a degree in HISTORY and they will tell you just how un-authentic this film was in terms of REALITY. The film WAS entertaining; dont get that confused.

musicman1999
08-25-2005, 02:13 PM
lex
we seem to vary on your descriptions of surround usage and center channel levels.
i believe terminator3 you had a problem with center level and i found my copy had clear clean sound from my center and i believe there was a couple of others but i am sorry the names escape me.
as for the surround usage my memory is not working well today.i will go back get the names and tell you later.
thanks
bill

Lexmark3200
08-25-2005, 02:20 PM
lex
we seem to vary on your descriptions of surround usage and center channel levels.
i believe terminator3 you had a problem with center level and i found my copy had clear clean sound from my center and i believe there was a couple of others but i am sorry the names escape me.
as for the surround usage my memory is not working well today.i will go back get the names and tell you later.
thanks
bill

Bill,

I know the comment you are referring to with regard to TERMINATOR 3 that I made about the dialogue; it was misinterpreted a bit or delivered in such a way that was a mistake on my behalf of writing it......there were no dialogue PROBLEMS per se, it just seemed that in COMPARISON to the rest of the mix, when all the action suddenly slowed down, dialogue remained softer in comparison to what was going on around it; in retrospect, I suppose this is normal and to be expected.