Newbies and the same old questions!!!!!!

[Worf101]

Hey this question is directed to the "old guard", Mtry, Wooch, Dr. Green, Sir Terrance, Kam, Mr and Ms Midfi, Swish, Grandpa, Over50 and any and all who've been here over the years who's name's may be slippin' my feeble little mind.

Hey guys (or gals... you can never tell) have you folks bout had it with people just coming in here to pick your brains for speaker recommendations? I mean it's an almost impossible task (at least to me) to make specific recommenddations when you don't know the persons:

1. Budget.
2. Listening tastes, ie. rock, jazz, rap, death speed metal....
3. Duties the speakers gonna have to perform, HT or strictly music or both!
4. And most importantly listening room dimensions and characteristics...

It's one thing to be asked specific opionions on specific models. Either/Or questions are fine, but these generic speaker questions are killing this forum if you ask me. How often can you answer this question for folks that are usually "just passin' through"? They don't hang around, they rarely tell us what they bought or how they like it. They don't review thier equipment or answer the questions of others... they're like leaches and/or ticks. How do you folks feel? Am I right or just feeling crumudgeony this morning?

Da rankled Worfster

[jbangelfish]

People visit this site for advice and some stay around. It's interesting to hear if anyone had an influence on their decision but many don't hang around to say. The ones who hang around awhile, often express their thanks and inform us of their decision. Just the way of the internet, I guess.
I shy away from the speaker questions as I know very little about the new stuff out there. That and HT which I don't care for especially in use for a music system. I guess this is what bugs me is so much use of HT systems for stereo music playback. From what I've heard, it's a giant step backwards in home audio but yet it dominates a site which I thought was all about quality audio.
There, I guess we each got something off our chest.
Bill

[JSE]

Hey Worf,

I am pretty new here and I can undersatnd what you are saying, but........

Newbies and the same old basic questions are just a fact of life for forum sites. They are always going to be here and they will continue to come. Look at it this way, for every ten or so "which speaker" questions, maybe 1 or 2 of the posters will stay around and start contributing to the forums. The fact is most people that register here have one question and really don't have the time or desire to become a "member" of this community. That's fine. That's what these forums are here for. It's the same for all forums. The answers to most questions are usually somewhere in the archives but most people don't want to look. They want a answer from a live/real time person. It's human nature.

Yes, the same old questions get old, but look at it this way. You are helping somebody make an informed choice. Rememer, a lot of people who post here for the first time think BOSE speakers are the best of the best. If nothing else, we can all take comfort and pride in knowning that we helped stear them away. Look at it as community service or a good deed.

I also agree that people not following up with what they choose to do and what to buy or even saying thank you is frustrating, but again it's not going to change. I always make it a point to try and say thanks to all who help me out but that's not the norm for most folks.


JSE

[Bryan]

The same old questions can become tiring but it can be fun trying to find equipment that will fit within a person's budget and needs. New gear, old stuff, or thinking outside the box. Additionally, it helps keeps us abreast of what is happening in the audio world and community. We can know the directions of the industry and help change them. WS/OAR movies are, more often than not now, outselling the P&S/FS versions.

Best things to do are keep it enjoyable for yourself and not take any of it personally.

[Chuck]

Hey this question is directed to the "old guard", Mtry, Wooch, Dr. Green, Sir Terrance, Kam, Mr and Ms Midfi, Swish, Grandpa, Over50 and any and all who've been here over the years who's name's may be slippin' my feeble little mind.

Hey guys (or gals... you can never tell) have you folks bout had it with people just coming in here to pick your brains for speaker recommendations? I mean it's an almost impossible task (at least to me) to make specific recommenddations when you don't know the persons:

1. Budget.
2. Listening tastes, ie. rock, jazz, rap, death speed metal....
3. Duties the speakers gonna have to perform, HT or strictly music or both!
4. And most importantly listening room dimensions and characteristics...

It's one thing to be asked specific opionions on specific models. Either/Or questions are fine, but these generic speaker questions are killing this forum if you ask me. How often can you answer this question for folks that are usually "just passin' through"? They don't hang around, they rarely tell us what they bought or how they like it. They don't review thier equipment or answer the questions of others... they're like leaches and/or ticks. How do you folks feel? Am I right or just feeling crumudgeony this morning?

Da rankled Worfster

I am extremely leery about making any kind of component recommendation, especially when it comes to loudspeakers. I have been making irregular posts on audio forums for about five years now, and in that time I have never recommended a single specific component of any type, at least not on an open forum. In most cases I don't have anything to offer, because I haven't had enough experience with the equipment in question. When I think I have something useful to contribute, what I have done is to directly contact people via private e-mail. Over the years I've only consulted with four people regarding speakers, and all four ended up following the advice and ended up getting more than they ever expected. In each case they made a big deal out of the help they got, which is something I found uncomfortable.

There is a great deal I need to know before I have any reason to believe that I might have useful advice, but your list is a good start. I'd have to modify it as follows:

1. Budget. This is the most important consideration.
2. Listening tastes, and personal preferences. This has to go well beyond just the musical genre. What "type of sound" does the person prefer? To what are they accustom? Unless I see that someone else has goals and tastes similar to my own I do not feel that my recommendations will mean much to them.
3. Duties the speakers gonna have to perform, HT or strictly music or both!
4. Second only in importance to the budget is the listening room dimensions/characteristics and WAF. If someone is looking for small speakers, I can't be much help, as I know little about such things. This alone puts me in a position of not being able to help most folks.
5. Associated equipment. This may or may not be an important issue. Wouldn't want to recommend powered speakers like the Beveridge ESL's to someone with a receiver that had no pre-outs (for example).
6. Expectations. If someone is head over heals in love with Martin-Logan or other loudspeakers that I'm familiar with, I have a handle on their expectations, and am more willing (and able) to make suggestions.

Until someone lives with a set of speakers in their home for a while there is no way to be sure that they will be happy with them, so in the end the recommendation is always the same. Try the product(s) in your home for a month or so; buy where you can return with no restocking fee within 30 days, and try the speakers at home before you make a hard commitment. Take your time. If you make a good decision you'll be happy with it for decades, but if you blow it the enjoyment will evaporate quickly.

[This Guy]

it would be nice if people used the search feature on these forums. The one question that kinda gets me ticked off is "I have $400, which subwoofer should i get?". If they simply searched the forums they would get their answer, which I'm sure most of you know the answer to. But I understand they wouldnt think of it first, I don't really mind cause this is my free time after school and don't have much else to do.

-Joey

[Woochifer]

Worf dude!

You got Klingon blood raging today! What did you have for lunch? :-)

I dunno, the questions do get repetitive at times, but you get that on any public forum like this one. In some ways though, my answers to basic questions have changed quite a bit in the three years or so that I've been active on this board (early on, I was the one asking the dumb questions since while I'd followed audio for years, the home theatre and multichannel thing were totally new to me). So, answering basic questions is sort of my own way of seeing where I am in my own thinking. And of course, I get a nice feeling of accomplishment whenever I steer someone away from Bose! :-D

But, the criteria that you list is very helpful. It would be good if more people thought things out and actually had to articulate how the hell they actually plan to use their system. My recommendations to a person who wants to shake the house with hip-hop and action pics 24/7 would be totally different than to someone whose music tastes predate the American Revolution!

I think what you're seeing right now is just the December/January buying binge. December is when people buy new entertainment systems for their family, and January is when the boys want their new mega screen for the Super Bowl. Of course, you're going to get a lot of newbies buying right now. For audio and HT hobbyists, the WHOLE YEAR is the right time to buy! Don't worry your rankled wrinkled brow about this, February will roll around soon enough, and the board will get back into a more normal pattern.

BTW, Happy New Year!

[Chuck]

it would be nice if people used the search feature on these forums. The one question that kinda gets me ticked off is "I have $400, which subwoofer should i get?". If they simply searched the forums they would get their answer, which I'm sure most of you know the answer to. But I understand they wouldnt think of it first, I don't really mind cause this is my free time after school and don't have much else to do.

-Joey

I doubt that it ever occurs to most people to search the archives. Computer literacy is far from universal. Also, if it weren't for repeat questions, there would be very little to keep the forum active.

People vary in their dependency. Some make decisions based on their own research, others are content to depend on magazine writers or "Web experts" to do their "research." It has long been true that most sales (of audio equipment) are the result of impulse purchases, which is why we see so many posts asking about equipment that has already been purchased. Searching the archives is too much like work, and less entertaining than starting a conversation by asking a question to a bunch of strangers. It seems that there are many reasons why we see the same questions repeatedly, and I think that's the way it should be. If people wanted a simple Q&A or FAQ they wouldn't use a forum.

[larrye]

Actually ... it does occur to me to search the archives ... and I actually did. But the problem is the volume of info out there is overwhelming and too difficult to sift through. Also, the questions in the archive are asked in the context of other people's requirements and systems. Lastly, there are certain questions/issues that are just plan too difficult to search for.

I also am grateful to anyone who offers help. I think you just have to accept newbie questions as a fact of life.

One suggestion though. Why not establish a concise FAQ list for the speaker forum, and instruct all newbies with questions to search that list for an answer to their question first before posting it?

[Chuck]

Actually ... it does occur to me to search the archives ... and I actually did. But the problem is the volume of info out there is overwhelming and too difficult to sift through. Also, the questions in the archive are asked in the context of other people's requirements and systems. Lastly, there are certain questions/issues that are just plan too difficult to search for.

I also am grateful to anyone who offers help. I think you just have to accept newbie questions as a fact of life.

One suggestion though. Why not establish a concise FAQ list for the speaker forum, and instruct all newbies with questions to search that list for an answer to their question first before posting it?

The volume of the archives is indeed a problem for most people, and as you note, the responses there often refer to very specific situations that may not be like yours or mine. As I understand it, this kind of forum is intended to provide a place where those with knowledge or experience can provide support to those who need it. In that respect it's like a classroom. There are constantly new students, and most have the same questions that the last batch had. I'm not even sure why anyone would participate here on a regular basis unless they enjoyed answering the questions (and teaching).

The problem (I have) with FAQ's is that they lack the diversity of opinion that is found on an open forum. I'm with you 100%; we have to accept newbie questions as a fact of life.

[TinHere]

C'mon Worf ya know this has been asked before.:p

[Willow]

Well the way I see it ....if it wasnt for the peeps on this site I would still be using my (shamed to say it) bose as my main system and I would not have set up my new system the right way and buying Monster cables.....shoot I should almost be paying some of you with all the money I have saved...but then my next point, if you have a passion for something as most of us do, I myself don't mind sharing what I have learned and know with anyone even if the question is asked 100 times thats what true passion for a hobby is..

[Worf101]

Worf dude!

You got Klingon blood raging today! What did you have for lunch? :-)

I dunno, the questions do get repetitive at times, but you get that on any public forum like this one. In some ways though, my answers to basic questions have changed quite a bit in the three years or so that I've been active on this board (early on, I was the one asking the dumb questions since while I'd followed audio for years, the home theatre and multichannel thing were totally new to me). So, answering basic questions is sort of my own way of seeing where I am in my own thinking. And of course, I get a nice feeling of accomplishment whenever I steer someone away from Bose! :-D

But, the criteria that you list is very helpful. It would be good if more people thought things out and actually had to articulate how the hell they actually plan to use their system. My recommendations to a person who wants to shake the house with hip-hop and action pics 24/7 would be totally different than to someone whose music tastes predate the American Revolution!

I think what you're seeing right now is just the December/January buying binge. December is when people buy new entertainment systems for their family, and January is when the boys want their new mega screen for the Super Bowl. Of course, you're going to get a lot of newbies buying right now. For audio and HT hobbyists, the WHOLE YEAR is the right time to buy! Don't worry your rankled wrinkled brow about this, February will roll around soon enough, and the board will get back into a more normal pattern.

BTW, Happy New Year!

I hate it when you make sense. Sigh... I guess you're right. You raise some salient points about the the whole "what speakers should I buy" business. I guess it does feel good when you can help someone steer clear of Bose, Monster cable or some other load of excrement. Your point about the "audio seasons" is correct. It never occured to me to view it that way. I've the same problem at the gym I go to. December it's the folks that got memberships for Christmas. January it's the latter AND the New Year's resolutiners..By Feburary their all gone. In March you get the "let me get in shape for Spring Breakers" and then the gym's empty all summer long and I can git some work done.

Oh and by the by... Happy New Year to you and yours tooo....!!!!

Da "slightly less curmudgeony" Worfster

[Worf101]

C'mon Worf ya know this has been asked before.:p

Like the proverbial bad penny, here's TinHere tossin stones in the pond. I love it. Good to see you my friend. Hope it's been a good year and you're doing alright. BTW nice avatar and good blindside of moi.

Da "Happy to see one of the old guard" Worfster

[Worf101]

Well the way I see it ....if it wasnt for the peeps on this site I would still be using my (shamed to say it) bose as my main system and I would not have set up my new system the right way and buying Monster cables.....shoot I should almost be paying some of you with all the money I have saved...but then my next point, if you have a passion for something as most of us do, I myself don't mind sharing what I have learned and know with anyone even if the question is asked 100 times thats what true passion for a hobby is..

Well, that's a goodie. If the guys here have done as much for you as you state then I guess it's a good thing to have newbies wandering about like lost sheep. Your response is what we rarely get around here. If I knew I'd saved from guy from audio hell, I guess I'd answer questions all day long. I have saved some folks, but only here and face to face... Thanks for the perspective...

Da Worfster :D

[Swerd]

Hey Worf

There are a whole lot of different speaker manufacturers out there. At any one location you may only find a few of these to listen to. So lists of recommended makes and models can be frustrating if you can’t find them. Instead of recommending specific speakers to “folks just passing through”, why not outline a method that they can use to audition and select speakers on their own? In other posts, you have enthusiastically described your development over several years as an involved listener of hifi sound. It may seem hard to boil that experience down to a short list, but it comes down to this, when selecting speakers there is no substitute for your own listening experience. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but shopping for speakers is the best fun spending money I've ever had.

Here is my start for that list. Feel free to add to it.



Find a store that encourages you to listen, by providing a variety of speakers in quiet listening rooms. Large chains (Best Buy, Circuit City, Tweeter, etc.) may not be the best places for that. Do not be intimidated by fears of high prices and snobbish pretensions. If the store and its salesmen have any sense they will want your business.
Listen to a variety of speakers, but pick a price range and stay within it.
Be aware of the size of the room where you plan to put the sound system. Ultimately, after you have narrowed down your choices to a couple of different speakers, you may want to hear them in your home.
Bring along several of your own CDs that you are familiar with to play when auditioning the speakers. Be sure to include some music that has relatively quiet passages with voice or single instruments, such as piano or guitar. It is often more revealing to hear how a speaker succeeds or fails with un-amplified single instruments or voices than it is to listen to music packed with sound such as amplified rock or a symphony orchestra playing at full tilt. Listen at both low and high volumes.
Find the sweet spot and listen carefully. Also walk around the room to listen to the speaker from a number of different angles. How wide is the dispersion of the higher frequencies? Is the sweet spot narrow or wide? A quick and easy method to assess dispersion is to listen to pink noise or inter-station noise on an FM tuner and walk around the room.
Be prepared to spend more than 5 or 10 minutes listening to each speaker you try. Sometimes, your initial impression changes after 15 to 30 minutes more listening. Some speakers immediately command your attention and initially seem to sound great, but become tiring to listen (listener fatigue) to for longer times.
Bring a friend. I have found that the next day I remember better what I liked and why if I have someone along to talk it over with. If you are very methodical (or compulsive) bring a pad of paper and take notes.
Take your time until you know what you prefer. There are enough different speakers made to suit many different tastes. Only you know what your taste is.

[RGA]

Swerd...

Good list of things to do. I would ad the essay by Audio Note for those people who do your list and then end up wanting to upgrade their speakers every year. You'd be surprised at how many people buy speakers doing precisely what you say and get bored or frustrated by their purchase merely months after buying. AN has a slightly different take on how to assess equipment...not saying they're 100% correct but it's a solid addition nonetheless.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/anp1.htm

[Swerd]

I intended that audio newbies be guided by this shopping method as an alternative to a simple directive to go buy a set of "Wonder Speaker 2000s". That long winded statement of philosophy from Audio Note would be lost on most people who just want to get some good speakers and be done with it. I think it would not be useful advice for a newbie.

I'm not going to comment on the content of that link other than to say that the author seemed to have way too much time on his hands.

[thepogue]

C'mon Worf ya know this has been asked before.:p

put'em up buster!!! lol:D

oh yea....i fergot to mention...




lets goooooo pats!!!!

[Norm Strong]

It's really simple. When somebody asks me for advice on what to buy, I just refer them to Consumer Reports. I'm not an expert; neither is anyone on this forum.

[RGA]

It's really simple. When somebody asks me for advice on what to buy, I just refer them to Consumer Reports. I'm not an expert; neither is anyone on this forum.

Neither is Consumer Reports...though they do help out the unthinking masses part with their money.

[Chuck]

It's really simple. When somebody asks me for advice on what to buy, I just refer them to Consumer Reports. I'm not an expert; neither is anyone on this forum.

Hi Norm,

Lee Mavity was the first person to point out to me that, "An expert is just someone who knows more about the topic than you know." While that may not be the way most people view experts, it's actually quite accurate. R&D labs tend to be full of "experts" but many of them are what might be called "transient experts." Analysts in particular tend to be experts in many areas, but only for as long as it takes to complete a project. Given a realistic working definition of the term it is clear that we do have at least a few experts posting on this forum.

That said, the topic here is loudspeaker selection. While Dr. Toole has shown that most people tend to prefer low distortion and a flat frequency response, loudspeaker selection is still a very subjective task, so the idea of being an expert in loudspeaker selection (for others) doesn't even make sense. There simply is no such thing.

Before I say any more on the topic I want to point out that I am in substantial agreement with Dr. Toole. His work merely verifies what experience has shown me over the last 30 years or so. However, there may be cause to think that the good doctor overlooked a few things. Some relatively inaccurate audio systems produce stunning sound, but Toole didn't use such systems in his tests. Things might have been quite different if he'd used some of Jim Smith's horns (for example). They're not nearly as accurate as other less costly speakers, but they give most listeners goose bumps. They have no problems that lead to listener fatigue, and most people fall in love with the way they sound. We can quibble over their accuracy or lack thereof all day long, but they still sound extremely nice.

Even if we all agreed that accuracy (to the source material) is our goal (of course this will never happen) we still have to make subjective judgements when it comes to loudspeakers. Every choice involves compromises, and we won't all choose the same set of tradeoffs. We compromise because money is limited, space is limited, and so on. If (for example) we're stuck with two smallish loudspeakers it is a given that we're not going to get bass that is both high in quality and extended. We can extend the reach at the expense of quality, or improve the quality at the expense of reach, but we can't have it both ways. A small loudspeaker with quality bass down to say 60 Hz. is apt to sound thin, but extending the bass lower brings other problems. If we allow a little excess output at the lowest frequencies (60 Hz. in this example) most people will find the sound more pleasing (some will even say that it is less harsh). Even if cost, size, and space, aren't an issue, we still have some subjective calls to make.

I can think of no better example than my own choice in loudspeakers. I gravitate toward large loudspeakers, and our home has been remodeled around the speakers. One of the (many) choices we've had to make involves loudspeaker dispersion. The options include omni, direct-reflecting, virtual point-source, cylendrical source, simple wide-dispersion, or various levels of controlled dispersion. Each will produce a different "illusion" and there is no "right way." I want headphone like clarity from my loudspeakers, so I choose compromises that lead to that end. Others have other priorities and will naturally make other choices (look at Skeptic’s approach for a perfect example). Loudspeaker performance involves more than just frequency response and distortion (as you well know), and it is impossible for any review or reviewer to decide for others what they will find most enjoyable. For that reason the advice in Consumer Reports is no better than any other. People (especially those considering the more expensive loudspeakers) really need to listen for themselves, and decide what THEY like.

Did you read my earlier post, the one in which I said that I was slow to offer loudspeaker advice? To do so without knowing a great deal about the personal preferences of other party is to ask for disappointment. If it is clear to me that someone is after the same kind of presentation I'm after, then, and only then, will I (sometimes) make a loudspeaker recommendation. After all, that is the only approach in which I can really claim to be any kind of expert. I know how to do what I do better than anyone else, by default.

It isn't any different than working in R&D. After you've worked with something for a while you become an expert by default, simply because you know more about the subject than most others. One year you're an expert on laser-range-finder/target-designator systems, and the next you're an expert in the EW arena. If you remember what a laser-range-finder/target-designator is two years later, you're remembering more than you need to remember. We live in a world where we have to become experts in what we do, while we're doing it, and then we have to move on. Everyone who posts here is an expert in some area (though it may not be related to audio).