Linear Tracking Turntable or not?

[nightflier]

I want to replace an aging fisher turntable and thought that a linear tracking unit might be interesting to try. I will be buying used on Audiogon or eBay, but this is a new area for me. What are some of the things I should watch out for? Should I avoid them altogether? Are there any makes/models that I should look for or avoid?

I'm not an audiophile when it comes to phono (most of my records are old and somewhat scratched), but I would like to have a good quality TT because I do copy records to CD regularly. Thanks.

[dean_martin]

I want to replace an aging fisher turntable and thought that a linear tracking unit might be interesting to try. I will be buying used on Audiogon or eBay, but this is a new area for me. What are some of the things I should watch out for? Should I avoid them altogether? Are there any makes/models that I should look for or avoid?

I'm not an audiophile when it comes to phono (most of my records are old and somewhat scratched), but I would like to have a good quality TT because I do copy records to CD regularly. Thanks.

Harman/Kardon made a linear tracking turntable with the RABCO ST-7 arm. Check the review section here. I've seen them on ebay and audiogon. From the reviews here, it looks like it might be a tinkerer's table rather than plug-n-play.

[hifitommy]

phase linear 8000a, pioneer PLL1000a (same tt), some of the yamahas and mitsubishis are good but not the technics pmount tables. if the table doesnt take a universal headshell, you dont want it.

just some advice from your uncle tommy.

[JoeE SP9]

I want to replace an aging fisher turntable and thought that a linear tracking unit might be interesting to try. I will be buying used on Audiogon or eBay, but this is a new area for me. What are some of the things I should watch out for? Should I avoid them altogether? Are there any makes/models that I should look for or avoid?

I'm not an audiophile when it comes to phono (most of my records are old and somewhat scratched), but I would like to have a good quality TT because I do copy records to CD regularly. Thanks.The cheaper linear trackers should be avoided. Their tracking action is based upon the arm/headshell being unaligned with the groove. This causes the arm to move across the record in a crabbing action. Whatever you buy try to get a belt drive. The motor being decoupled from the platter results in better quieter (less rumble and background noise) sound. Avoid any TT/Arm that does not accept a standard cartridge. No P-mounts. http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[nightflier]

Joe, Tommy,

If I understand this correctly, these are some of the criteria I should be looking for:

1. Solid brand name like Pioneer, Mistubishi, Yamaha, Phase Linear (is that where the name came from?).
2. Accepts standard cartridge
3. Has good quality tracking mechanism
4. Tracking is not attached to the lid

I realise that No. 3 above is key. What are some of the ways I can determine that?

Any other suggestions? There's a Marants unit on eBay that looks decent:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5791735867&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

And a few others:

Sansui (bad pics):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sansui-P-L51-Direct-Drive-Automatic-Linear-Turntable_W0QQitemZ5792060342QQcategoryZ3283QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

B&O:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bang-Olufsen-Beogram-3000-Linear-Tracking-Turntable_W0QQitemZ5793382315QQcategoryZ3283QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Luxman:
http://cgi.ebay.com/LXI-Luxman-Linear-Tracking-Turntable-Record-Player-NICE_W0QQitemZ5792733834QQcategoryZ64625QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Sony:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-DIRECT-DRIVE-LINEAR-TURNTABLE-PS-LX500_W0QQitemZ5793208529QQcategoryZ3283QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

No Phase Linear, but that Sony unit (PS-LX500) seems to be pretty popular. Any thoughts?

[SlumpBuster]

In theory, linear tracking supposedly beats "regular" tables for tracking accuracy, but there is a reason they never took off in popularity... they suck.

J/K some are pretty good. I'd stay away from the sansui and luxman you listed. Both appear to be 1980's vintage, not the golden age of either of those companies. But if you can find a 1970's vintag of either, your generally in good shape. You can't go wrong with B&O because at least it will always look nice. ;)

You want to make sure that not only does it have a universal mount, but that it also interchangable cartridges. Lots of linear arms are set for only one weight, like alot of cheap Pmount arms. That means you can usually only use one particular cartridge.

Have fun and happy huntin. :D

[Glen B]

Whatever you buy try to get a belt drive. The motor being decoupled from the platter results in better quieter (less rumble and background noise) sound.

Well yes, unless its like my Denon DP-59L. :D In 18 years, no rumble that I can hear, no belt changes, no problems.

[JoeE SP9]

Joe, Tommy,

If I understand this correctly, these are some of the criteria I should be looking for:

1. Solid brand name like Pioneer, Mistubishi, Yamaha, Phase Linear (is that where the name came from?).
2. Accepts standard cartridge
3. Has good quality tracking mechanism
4. Tracking is not attached to the lid

I realise that No. 3 above is key. What are some of the ways I can determine that?

Any other suggestions? There's a Marants unit on eBay that looks decent:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5791735867&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

And a few others:

Sansui (bad pics):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sansui-P-L51-Direct-Drive-Automatic-Linear-Turntable_W0QQitemZ5792060342QQcategoryZ3283QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

B&O:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bang-Olufsen-Beogram-3000-Linear-Tracking-Turntable_W0QQitemZ5793382315QQcategoryZ3283QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Luxman:
http://cgi.ebay.com/LXI-Luxman-Linear-Tracking-Turntable-Record-Player-NICE_W0QQitemZ5792733834QQcategoryZ64625QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Sony:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-DIRECT-DRIVE-LINEAR-TURNTABLE-PS-LX500_W0QQitemZ5793208529QQcategoryZ3283QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

No Phase Linear, but that Sony unit (PS-LX500) seems to be pretty popular. Any thoughts?
I would not buy a linear tracker.The only decent linear tracking arms are rather expensive. I would not buy a B&O because of the non standard cartridge. If I was looking for an inexpensive used TT I would look for an AR. I have had many TT's over the years and will have nothing but belt drives. If you are willing to spend the money look for a used VPI or SOTA. The VPI HW19 JR that I own has been upgraded to full HW19 status. The upgrade path is the main reason I purchased the Jr in the beginning. If you can spring for $300 I highly recommend a new Music Hall. If that is a viable option or even if it isn't check out www.needledoctor.com (http://www.needledoctor.com) they have a great selection of TT's at prices that range from reasonable to unbelievable. They also carry a very extensive line of phono cartridges. I'm not familiar with that particular Luxman TT but their products have always impressed me. As far as I know Luxman no longer has a presence in the US.http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[sam9]

Biggest problem with older linear trackers is parts and repairs. A Rabco might have historical value, but possabilities to keep it working and in-spec are limited. Phase Linear / Pioneer (same device with different labels) was the best of the lot. At one time nearly every Japanses turntable line had a linear tracking product, but my recollection was that they differed only in cosmetics (probably a common OEM) and were at best OK. B&O is probably in the same league -- basicly an exercise in modern decor.

In sum, if you want a vintage unit that also has a potential for really good performance the only option is a PL/Pioneer in good condition.

Modern linear trackers as far as I can tell are priced in kilobucks.

[E-Stat]

Modern linear trackers as far as I can tell are priced in kilobucks.
Unfortunately, yes. I purchased my Souther TQ-1 back in '84 for around $900. Today, under the Clearaudio name, it goes for around $3500. Every once in a while you find one on Agon for a decent price.

While mine sounds wonderful on a VPI table, it is finicky to set up.

rw

[sam9]

Unfortunately, yes. I purchased my Souther TQ-1 back in '84 for around $900. Today, under the Clearaudio name, it goes for around $3500. Every once in a while you find one on Agon for a decent price.

Definite issue there regarding priorities. If one did buy a $3500 turntable at $20 per you would have to buy 175 LPs to have an investment in media equal in cost to the playback device. No wonder some people think audiophiles are morinterested in the gear than the music.

[E-Stat]

Definite issue there regarding priorities. If one did buy a $3500 turntable at $20 per you would have to buy 175 LPs to have an investment in media equal in cost to the playback device. No wonder some people think audiophiles are morinterested in the gear than the music.
Actually, the arm alone is now $3500. Then you add the turntable. And power cord.

For those with large libraries and discriminating ears, however, the benefit is real.

rw

[sam9]

Actually, the arm alone is now $3500. Then you add the turntable. And power cord.

For those with large libraries and discriminating ears, however, the benefit is real.


And for all that I would still be aggravated by surface noise. Fuggedaboudit! Reminds me once agsin why I like CDs. I spent far too many decades mokeying with stylus pressure stlus alignment gadgets, sylus and record cleaners, etc.

[nightflier]

Well the prospects for a linear tracking turntable don't look so good from what I'm reading here. I had hoped that they would actually be more convenient and trouble-free than standard tables. And I certainly can't afford a $3500 table. The hastle of owning and maintaining one of those or even the mainstream ones on eBay just don't look like they are worth the marginal improvement of linear tracking.

I think I will go back to looking for a standard turntable. Thanks for all the input.

[Garrardman]

The B&O ones are good turntables, but they are a dodgy purchase because of the high price of the replacement (B&O only) cartridges.

Sticking to a conventional deck is a wise decision! ;)

[squeegy200]

In theory, linear tracking supposedly beats "regular" tables for tracking accuracy, but there is a reason they never took off in popularity... they suck.



Most linear tracking tonearms were mechanically driven and were inferior than their pivital counterparts of the same price range. Therefore, the mechanicals necessary to run linear often made more noise than they were worth.

A well built and well designed linear tracker mounted to a compatible deck will humble any pivotal arm. There are some excellent linear tracking arms such as the Eminent Technologies or the Air Tangent. Unfortunately, those arms cost more than an economy sized Motor car.

However, you can build a giant killer of a turntable by purchasing a competent deck and outfitting it with one of these. http://airtech.atspace.com/

This tonearm is NOT cartridge dependent and is compatible with most any cartridge in any price range. If you install this on a descent deck, it will embarrass decks costing 100x as much.

[JoeE SP9]

Most linear tracking tonearms were mechanically driven and were inferior than their pivital counterparts of the same price range. Therefore, the mechanicals necessary to run linear often made more noise than they were worth.

A well built and well designed linear tracker mounted to a compatible deck will humble any pivotal arm. There are some excellent linear tracking arms such as the Eminent Technologies or the Air Tangent. Unfortunately, those arms cost more than an economy sized Motor car.

However, you can build a giant killer of a turntable by purchasing a competent deck and outfitting it with one of these. http://airtech.atspace.com/

This tonearm is NOT cartridge dependent and is compatible with most any cartridge in any price range. If you install this on a descent deck, it will embarrass decks costing 100x as much.
I checked the web site. I am impressed. Do you know any one who has one? I am seriously considering one.http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[nightflier]

This is very impressive indeed. It's a little over my budget, but certainly reasonable considering all the research & development that must have gone into it...

[E-Stat]

I checked the web site. I am impressed. Do you know any one who has one? I am seriously considering one.http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
How much is it? The website offers pricing for the air pump and shipping only.

rw

[Pat D]

Well the prospects for a linear tracking turntable don't look so good from what I'm reading here. I had hoped that they would actually be more convenient and trouble-free than standard tables. And I certainly can't afford a $3500 table. The hastle of owning and maintaining one of those or even the mainstream ones on eBay just don't look like they are worth the marginal improvement of linear tracking.

I think I will go back to looking for a standard turntable. Thanks for all the input.
One of the older magazines (I don't know which one anymore) found that because of the hysteresis in the feedback mechanism, tables with linear tracking tonearms were not in fact more accurate in alignment than a properly set up conventional tonearm.

There's nothing wrong with the better direct drive turntables compared to belt drive tables, so I would consider it a non-issue. With good TT's, the chief difference is in the tonearms.

[squeegy200]

I checked the web site. I am impressed. Do you know any one who has one? I am seriously considering one.http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif


I purchased one just because it was so inexpensive. It has since gained a lot of attention and is now being distributed worldwide. I know of several groups as far as South Africa that were trying desperately to get ahold of them.

I compared this one to my Sumiko arm on a Systemdek IIx. This is absolutely silent in between tracks, there is no Antiskate because its linear, and it tracks records my pivotal arms could not.

This is an incredible bargain if you consider that the equivalent Air Tangent Tonearm sells for $11,000!

[squeegy200]

One of the older magazines (I don't know which one anymore) found that because of the hysteresis in the feedback mechanism, tables with linear tracking tonearms were not in fact more accurate in alignment than a properly set up conventional tonearm.

There's nothing wrong with the better direct drive turntables compared to belt drive tables, so I would consider it a non-issue. With good TT's, the chief difference is in the tonearms.

I used to work in an audio shop that sold Eminent Technologies and Air Tangent Tonearms. So I think I'm somewhat experienced enough to make a comparison of their performance.

People who own expensive Pivotal tonearms have always told me that there isn't any benefit to the linear tracking systems. Compared to a Sony, B&O, or a Technics, they are correct. Those linear trackers are far inferior to the refinements of many available pivotal tonearms. However, compared to something that has the same amount of engineering and refinement, and the advantage goes to the linear trackers.

Consder this:. The original masters from which LPs are pressed have an image which is cut using linear tracking stylus. The angle at which the masters are cut does not have tracking angles from a pivital arm. It is linear. All pivotal arms will attempt to mnimize this compromise during playback utilizing the wides arc possible. Through engineering and manufacturing, the pivotal arm has been extensively refined and minimize but not eliminated. Some of them are truly engineering masterpieces and deserve their pricetags..

However, in theory, a true linear tracking arm will follow the groove in precisely the same manner as the original machine which made the original master. Virtually replicating the same tracking path as the day it was first made.

What made the expensive linear trackers so good is that they utilzed air bearings. The stylus/tonearm assembly was completely isolated by a cushion of air from the mechanical influences of the arm and deck mechanisms. In addition, there is virtually no bearing friction and resistence and is therefore free to follow the grooves of the pressed LP regardless if its perfectly circular or misalginment from center. In addition, the floating portion of the arm has such low mass, that cartridge compliance is more effective in keeping the stylus in the groove rather than balancing the inertia of the tonearm. A linear tracker once calibrated will stay in the groove with correct stylus angles from beginning to end. Vertical Tracking angles can also be adjusted both for and aft very easily by raising or lowering the tonearm assembly in relation to the record surface. Easily accomplished on a linear setup.

One other thing a pivotal arm cannot do, the MG-1 offers an optional Tonearm. You can premount different carrtidges to different tonearms and prebalance the setup. With it you can easily and quickly switch cartridges by taking off the end cap, unplugging the arm, and sliding it off. Then slide the new one on with your new cartridge, replace the endcap, plug it in. Since the new arm has already been previously mounted and balanced, its already to play. Great for if you like one cartridge for classical music and another for Rock-n-roll. Its also a great way to do A-B comparisons of cartridges to see if there really is an audible difference.

For $600 you can have a linear tracking arm that beats the socks off tonearms costing much more. For example, compare that to an equivalent priced Rega tonarm. Most rega owners will find Rega's insufficient in their OEM form and will rewire and use aftermarket counter weights.. In addition, Rega does not believe in Vertical Tracking angle adjustements and does not provde the means to adjust VTA. Owners have to spend for an additional aftermarket mounting kit to get VTA adjustability. The audible differences in VTA adjustments is dramatic. On an MG-1 - with a steady hand, you can adjust the VTA on the fly. The sound differences are real. Changes in VTA are audible even with just minute changes. Its just that you can't make before/after comparisons on a pivotal arm because VTA adjustments require partial disassembly of the tonearm. Regas are one of the most highly sought after and respected tonearms in the audiophile culture.

The MG-1 is a giant killer. The fact that the other owners of the more expensive arms keep poo-pooing the MG-1 seems to be confirmation of my assessment.

All of the MG-1 owners with whom I've communicated have all been impressed with the MG-1 tonearm. Most of them mounted their arms and cartridges on decks much more impressive than my own.

[nightflier]

Squeegy,

Thanks for the detailed info. I don't want to throw the discussion too far off on this tangent but what about laser tracking turntables? Since they do not made contact with the disk, wouldn't they be superior?

[squeegy200]

There was a discussion on the Laser tables on the Audiogon forums recently. I've never used one or heard one. But I am curious.
Here is the discussion
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1112411577&openflup&4&4#4

I would imagine a laser pickup to be able to do error correction to disregard dirt in the grooves and would also be able to track with a high degree of accuracy. However, from comments made, it is especially susceptible to surface noise and requires meticulous cleaning prior to playback. I would guess the final performance assessment would be the ability to digitize with the laser, the analog grooves into lifelike digital signals and then convert back to analog with as little coloration and as much natural reproduction as was in the original analog grooves.

I don't know the price of one but it is sold here. http://www.audioturntable.com/
Some mentioned they were expensive too.

I've never seen one in reality and would like to hear one.

[squeegy200]

I've since found the prices for the ELP

http://www.audioturntable.com/purchase/index.html

[squeegy200]

After reading the website in more detail, the ELP turntable is claimed to be ANALOG from laser all the way to the output stage. There is a reply made by an owner in the Audiogon discussion that says the same thing. So I was wrong in the digital to analog conversion. (Several asked the same question in the thread!)

I'm not sure how a laser can read a physical medium and do it in analog from start to finish. From the descriptions, it is a technology I'm not comprehending. But it gets stellar reviews from owners and journalistic/industry reviewers alike.

[hifitommy]

reviewers have been pretty universal that the laser tt is a mixed bag. 14k for an immature technology seems PRICEY to me. the sophomoric replies in tasFROM the manufacturer were or should be an embarrassment to the manufacturer.

[squeegy200]

reviewers have been pretty universal that the laser tt is a mixed bag. 14k for an immature technology seems PRICEY to me. the sophomoric replies in tasFROM the manufacturer were or should be an embarrassment to the manufacturer.

I didn't read "The Absolute Sound" article. Which issue?

[hifitommy]

its the current one, on the stand now. that will be a well spent $6.95! the other reviews and articles will reward you for being curious.

[squeegy200]

its the current one, on the stand now. that will be a well spent $6.95! the other reviews and articles will reward you for being curious.


I picked up a copy of TAS #155 today. Good read.

Very good evaluation of the Laser Turntable. I did not find the manufacturer comments until later after searching thru the review. It was located a few pages later at the end of the section. I think I agree with your assessment regarding the manufacturers response. Very much akin to the engineer a few years back who attempted to explain to me the technology behing MP3 music reproduction and how true it was to the original source. ;)

I was also happy to see a review of the new Wilson Maxx IIs in that issue. I just missed an opportunity to hear a demonstration a few weeks back. After reading the article, I'm now kicking myself for missing it.

[hifitommy]

you live VERY close to the maxx2s set up for demo at brooks berdan. myrtle and olive in monrovia! i was there yesterday for a belt for my sota sapphire tt. its worth going just to see brooks cabinet full of analog memorabilia. high end hardware AND software.

[squeegy200]

Yes, Brooks hosted a recent LA&OC Audiophile Society meeting where he demo'd the Maxx IIs. That was the meeting I missed.

I used to work with Brooks back in the 80s when he designed the GNP Valkyries. Amusing how similar his orignal designs were to the Wilson speakers being sold today. (I should have bought a pair of those when I had an employee discount.)

Brooks was the one responsible for setting up the Eminent Technologies and Air Tangent tonearms that I was priviledged to listen to every day in the office. His show room is incredible and his museum is amazing.

[mkaramazov]

I currently use a Harman Kardon Rabco ST7 linear tracker. This uses a mechanical process to move the arm : a different operating principle to either the servo correction LTs or the air bearing arms. To my ears its a fantastic sounding deck. I haven't owned high end turntables - so I can't really say how it compares to set ups costing thousands - but in my opinion it simply blows away my Thorens 124 / SME 3012, an old but well regarded vintage combo. Yes there is some fiddling involved, but once its set up it seems pretty reliable.

The Technics P-Mount LTs have been given a pretty bad rap in this thread, I think perhaps a little unjustifiably. It is true that attaching a tonearm to a lid rules out great sound, but they still do not sound too bad, and there are some decent NOS P-mounts floating around out there on ebay, including some of the great Technics cartrdiges such as the boron cantilevered 310MC, 205 and 202. I own both a SL DL1 and a SL 7, both of which sound pretty respectable (although not as good as the Rabco) with the 310MC bolted in and placed on firm level support. Plus they are probably the most user friendly TTs ever made.

[whineryop]

How do I open up my Harman/Kardon Rabco ST-7 Turntable so I can change the drive belt,
tracking shaft pulley and tracking roller that has disintegrated after being in storage for 25 years? Any Rabco ST-7 owners out there? Thanks. Whin

[GMichael]

How do I open up my Harman/Kardon Rabco ST-7 Turntable so I can change the drive belt,
tracking shaft pulley and tracking roller that has disintegrated after being in storage for 25 years? Any Rabco ST-7 owners out there? Thanks. Whin

Welcome to AR.

But I think you should start a new thread for your question. Just click on new topic.

[whineryop]

Thanks GMichael. I am very new. What does start a new thread mean? Thanks

[hifitommy]

i have two such TTs, one is the mapleknoll athena in need of some work, but when it was functioning, it was VIVID. the other is a pioneer PLL1000a, the same tt as the phase linear 8000a. not as good sounding but good nonetheless.

the elp is overrated by its maker. the mg1 would be interesting to hear. perhaps squeegy and i will get together that way.