Help required! Is it worth adding a power amp? [Archive]

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Les Adams

07-27-2005, 11:45 AM

Hi, I am new to this forum and I am seeking advice (already)!

I have a Denon AVR3801 receiver which I use for home cinema and stereo listening. I must say I am very happy with the cinema side of things but I have read many comments that A/V amps do not perform well in stereo, although I believe this Denon is one of the better performers in this area.

My question for the group is:

Is "the problem" with these A/V receivers normally the preamp section, or the power amps? If it is the power amps, would I be better off using an external higher quality power amp? The Denon has a pre-out, so it would be simple to do, but is there any benefit? Power is not an issue as the Denon delivers around 140w into the 6ohm speakers, but quality may be!

Funds are a bit limited (my wife wants a new kitchen!) but I have been thinking of buying a s/h Quad 405-2 to drive the front speakers for stereo.

I ask because I have recently got back into listening to vinyl / CD / Stereo.

This is my current system and suggestions for improvement would be welcome!

Garrard 401 Turntable / SME3009S2imp (non-det) arm
Shure V15Vxmr cartridge
Denon AVR3801 receiver
Arcam Delta 70.3 CD player
Denon DVD-2500 DVD Player
Meridian A500 Loudspeakers (Front) (Silverlink Aero Cables - Bi-Wired)
JBL Control Speaker (Centre) (Supra Cable)
Gale Satellite Speakers (Rear) (Supra Cable)

Your thoughts please gentlemen?!

Jimmy C

07-27-2005, 12:24 PM

Woochifer

07-27-2005, 12:46 PM

The benefit of adding an external amp will vary depending on how demanding the front speakers are, the size of your room, and your typical listening level. I know about Meridian's self-powered towers, but not their other passive models, so I have no idea what kind of a load they put on an amp. As Jimmy mentioned, you could try borrowing an external amp from a local dealer and see how much (if any) audible benefit that you can discern. Only then can you figure out whether such an investment is worthwhile.

sam9

07-27-2005, 01:33 PM

Definately try borrowing an amp.

Where you are most likely to hear a difference is on peaks. It depends a lot on your speakers. It is very hard to say how a specific AVR interacts with a specific set of speakers without expirementing. The benefits are also bit complex to predict because you will be taking some of the load off the AVR so it is possible that the suuround quality my improve some (assuiming it was limited). And don't discount the affect on DVDs -- at least the ones with loud dramatic sound.

Be preparred to accept that you may not hear a benefit. That is a real possability too.

Les Adams

07-27-2005, 02:33 PM

Ok, thank you all for your comments and suggestions so far. (Jimmy, has my wife been talking to you?) I would also appreciate some general comments about what you may think is "The weakest link" in the overall system.

I have tried a rather old Rotel RB850 50w dual mono block amp. There was an improvement in overall "musicality" and detail, the Rotel also sounded warmer and "fuller", but it was lacking the dynamics of the Denon. The Rotel is about 10 years old and it may be that the capacitors are drying out, so it is not performing as well as it used to. I particularly noticed this on timbale and snares (in particular the big toms at the begining of Paul Simon's "The Boy In The Bubble" on "Graceland" which lost some weight, body and attack.

I do play loud, very loud sometimes, so I think the extra power of the Denon helps in this area. The Meridian's do not seem hard to drive and even the Rotel managed some pretty impressive SPL with no evidence of amplifier clipping, it was just the dynamics that were lacking. This may of course just be a characteristic of the Rotel amp.

One other point that concerns me is that the Denon does not have a switch to turn off the output to the speakers, so when using an external power amp, the Denon is seeing an open circuit at the speaker terminals. Is this likely to cause any harm?

I am also still a bit puzzled by why A/V amps are generally not rated for stereo use, so some more explanation of this would help me.

I agree that borrowing an amp is a good idea, but as I would prefer to buy something good, but older (to reduce the financial outlay) it might be difficult to borrow something like an older Naim or Quad 405-2.. Unless there is somebody in my area (Cheam, Surrey) who has a Quad and would like to pop round for a few beers one evening to experiment?... all in the name of research you understand!

Les.

Woochifer

07-27-2005, 04:27 PM

Ok, thank you all for your comments and suggestions so far. (Jimmy, has my wife been talking to you?) I would also appreciate some general comments about what you may think is "The weakest link" in the overall system.

The weak link in your system is probably the nonmatching five-speaker setup. From what I know of Meridian speakers, a JBL center speaker could provide a significant enough contrast for you to notice the timbral mismatch. Generally, you're best served by going with as close a voice match all the way around as possible. If the multichannel performance is not your highest priority, then obviously the speaker mismatches will not matter as much as they would to someone else.

Also, your system setup might benefit from the addition of a subwoofer, if for no other reason than to allow you more placement flexibility since main speakers typically locate along the middle of the front wall -- the location in the room where low frequency reinforcement is weakest. And by equalizing the subwoofer to minimize the room-induced peaking and create a more accurate bass, you can extend the range considerably while creating an in-room bass performance that can rival most full-range speakers for considerably less money.

One other point that concerns me is that the Denon does not have a switch to turn off the output to the speakers, so when using an external power amp, the Denon is seeing an open circuit at the speaker terminals. Is this likely to cause any harm?

Doubt that this would cause any harm whatsoever. Can't complete a circuit if the signal path goes nowhere.

I am also still a bit puzzled by why A/V amps are generally not rated for stereo use, so some more explanation of this would help me.

Of course they're rated for stereo use. It just happens that most people who buy them use them more for the multichannel applications. AV amps with an analog bypass for two-channel sources are fine with stereo playback and the 3801 does an analog bypass directly to the amp with no digital conversion when playing two-channel sources with the digital processing switched off. Almost all of the reviewers that I've seen include at least some two-channel playback in the subjective evaluations of AV amps.

Les Adams

07-27-2005, 07:53 PM

Thank you Woochifer, you make some very interesting points and clear up a myth or two for me. The comments on my system are much appreciated and taken on board.

The mismatch of speakers came about in a series of upgrades. Originally I had a pair of JBL Century L100 speakers at the front, so when I got my first "Pro Logic" receiver, the JBL centre made sense and matched well. The Meridian's were my most recent upgrade and were bought for their stereo performance, rather than trying to match them to the rest. The Gale rear speakers were some small speakers that used to live in the bedroom! So yes, I agree that for 5.1, it is not a match made in heaven!

However, as you may already have guessed, my main concern is stereo performance as I listen to music more seriously than I watch films. I enjoy the 5.1, but it is not my priority. My wife is the TV watcher!

By A/V receivers not being "rated", I meant that most of the hi-fi press seem to frown upon them in serious hi-fi stereo terms and are rather dissmissive of them. I have often read that they believe only a dedicated stereo amp, or a pair of mono blocks will give true stereo performance and that seemed rather odd to me. After all, an amp is an amp, regardless of what it is being asked to reproduce and why should the amps in an A/V receiver not be good for stereo. I suspect there is some snobbery going on here! I was asking if there is any technical reason why this should be so.

I have been into hi-fi and music for many years and used to earn my living as a record producer and remixer for the likes of Aretha Franklin. I still have a pair of very large Westlake studio monitors driven by a C-Audio SR606 amp in my home studio (now a radio production studio where I produce shows) and that system really kicks, but it is not a good environment to relax in and enjoy music, it is far too "clinical"!

My main problem with the system is that it does not give me the dynamics and absolute clarity I get in the studio and there is sometimes a "muddling" of the sound on complex pieces of music. I am trying to find out where that is coming from. I may try lifting (with the help of a friend!) the C-Audio amp into the lounge. That beast is 650w per channel and has a power supply that would run half the village! These amps are widely used in recording studios for the main monitors and are superb and accurate sounding amps, although you wouldn't want it in your hi-fi rack.. it would probably buckle under the weight! I guess that will at least tell me if it is the Denon power amps that I am not happy with and I can go from there.

If that doesn't help then I guess I could try an outboard phono preamp.

The 3801 does indeed have a "direct" mode and I use it for all stereo sources. My concern is the quality of the Denon phono preamp and the power amps. In general, I am happy with the system, but I keep wondering how much better it could sound if I made some changes. The Garrard 401 is a remarkable turntable and the SME / V15Vxmr are a perfect match so I think I have got the front end right. I think I am also happy with the Meridian speakers although I suspect I have yet to hear them at their best.

The subwoofer suggestion as also a good one, thank you.

My goodness me.. I really do have the hi-fi bug again! Is there a cure?

Woochifer

07-28-2005, 04:53 PM

Hi-fi press seem to frown upon them in serious hi-fi stereo terms and are rather dissmissive of them. I have often read that they believe only a dedicated stereo amp, or a pair of mono blocks will give true stereo performance and that seemed rather odd to me. After all, an amp is an amp, regardless of what it is being asked to reproduce and why should the amps in an A/V receiver not be good for stereo. I suspect there is some snobbery going on here! I was asking if there is any technical reason why this should be so.

Snobbery in audio? You're kidding me! :)

I think you caught on rather quickly. A lot of the audiophile press is wedded to two-channel playback, and has reinforced their trench positions against any development that might disturb that pattern. IMO, that's unfortunate because multichannel has plenty of attributes that a significant segment of the audiophile press generally ignores. As far as any prejudice against multichannel receivers go, it's pretty much an extension of the prevailing attitudes over the years towards any mass market receiver or amplifier.

Once the hi-fi market started to branch off into these arbitrary definitions of "high end," then the influence of perceptions in the market, rather than reality, started to take over a lot of the audio industry. (Case in point, the advent of stratospherically priced cables, which I've never been able to justify at any level) Speakers like your JBL L100s used to be sold alongside Quads, B&Ws, ARs, KEFs, Advents, and other "high end" speakers of that era. But, much of the audiophile community now overly focuses on exclusion, rather than inclusion. It's almost like if a store sells mass market products, then some audiophiles will view the store as less than worthy, even if the staff expertise and product offerings are still solid. Mention JBL to a self-described audiophile, and just check out the level of derision for yourself -- even if the person has no clue as to what the L100s sounded like or how influential a speaker that was in its time or how optimally it performed with much of the music recorded at that time (makes sense since many of the pop recordings of the 70s were monitored on the JBL 43xx studio monitors, which were the studio versions of the L100s).

There's some merit to the benefits of using separates to achieve maximum stereo performance. However, that does not therefore mean that the two-channel performance of multichannel receivers is therefore unacceptable. Also, as I mentioned earlier, the benefit of better amplification will depend greatly on the types of speakers you use.

In general, you do compromise the two-channel performance when you use a midlevel multichannel system, but not to the degree that some in the audiophile press would lead you to believe. On the other hand, two-channel systems are not asked to perform the multitude of functions that multichannel receivers/processors do either. The benefits of multichannel playback are also frequently ignored. As far back as 1939, when Bell Labs conducted their groundbreaking research into psychoacoustics, they identified the need for three speakers up front to adequately reproduce the front soundstage of a live event; two-channel came about because of limitations in the playback formats available to consumers, not because of its technical superiority.

I have been into hi-fi and music for many years and used to earn my living as a record producer and remixer for the likes of Aretha Franklin. I still have a pair of very large Westlake studio monitors driven by a C-Audio SR606 amp in my home studio (now a radio production studio where I produce shows) and that system really kicks, but it is not a good environment to relax in and enjoy music, it is far too "clinical"!

My main problem with the system is that it does not give me the dynamics and absolute clarity I get in the studio and there is sometimes a "muddling" of the sound on complex pieces of music. I am trying to find out where that is coming from. I may try lifting (with the help of a friend!) the C-Audio amp into the lounge. That beast is 650w per channel and has a power supply that would run half the village! These amps are widely used in recording studios for the main monitors and are superb and accurate sounding amps, although you wouldn't want it in your hi-fi rack.. it would probably buckle under the weight! I guess that will at least tell me if it is the Denon power amps that I am not happy with and I can go from there.

The dynamics in a studio versus what you hear at home is a tricky proposition because the near-field monitors used in a lot of studios are designed for placement up close to a mixing board with narrow dispersion patterns to limit the room interactions. Home speakers might be designed to completely different parameters -- case in point, the Canadian speaker companies that design their speakers to have wide dispersion patterns and limited tonal variances off-axis.

The other consideration at home is that you're in a very different acoustical environment from a studio control room. The room can either be overly damped or it can be highly reflective, with both conditions creating their own alterations to the sound quality. I think that either extreme with the room acoustics can create a perception of dynamics lacking. With an overly damped room, because the deadening effect of the room can suck the life out of the music; and with an overly reflective room, because the time domain distortions create a harshness that sounds unfocused and leads you to choose a volume setting lower than you would otherwise use.

I think swapping out the amp would be a great thing to try out, since you're curious as to any audible effects. As an experiment, I would also try out different speaker placements, and if you're up for it, try some room treatments like acoustic panels, corner bass traps, or strategically placed acoustic foam panels. In my listenings and measurements, the room acoustics make a noticeable and tangible difference in the sound quality, while amplification upgrades are less significant.

If that doesn't help then I guess I could try an outboard phono preamp.

The 3801 does indeed have a "direct" mode and I use it for all stereo sources. My concern is the quality of the Denon phono preamp and the power amps. In general, I am happy with the system, but I keep wondering how much better it could sound if I made some changes. The Garrard 401 is a remarkable turntable and the SME / V15Vxmr are a perfect match so I think I have got the front end right. I think I am also happy with the Meridian speakers although I suspect I have yet to hear them at their best.

The subwoofer suggestion as also a good one, thank you.

My goodness me.. I really do have the hi-fi bug again! Is there a cure?

Outboard phono preamps are another good area to experiment with. Generally, receivers nowadays include phono inputs almost as an afterthought. I don't even know if AV receivers apply the RIAA equalization curve in the digital or analog domain. Your turntable rig should be quite fine for some good LP adventures. I recently fitted my trusty Dual CS5000 with an Ortofon OM30, and it felt like a welcome home party for my vinyl collection after two years of suffering with a Sumiko Black Pearl.

E-Stat

07-28-2005, 05:22 PM

Speakers like your JBL L100s used to be sold alongside Quads, B&Ws, ARs, KEFs, Advents, and other "high end" speakers of that era.
L100s and Advents as high end ? (I have a double pair of New Advents in my vintage system) You're kidding, right? Neither is in the same ballpark whatsoever as high end gear.

Mention JBL to a self-described audiophile, and just check out the level of derision for yourself -- even if the person has no clue as to what the L100s sounded like or how influential a speaker that was in its time or how optimally it performed with much of the music recorded at that time (makes sense since many of the pop recordings of the 70s were monitored on the JBL 43xx studio monitors, which were the studio versions of the L100s).
Or, choice (b) those of us who knew the 4310 well with it's exaggerated mid bass and glary upper midrange never took them seriously as accurate reproducers. There was later an L110 which was vastly improved in it's neutrality, a trait the L100 Century was never accused of being.

In general, you do compromise the two-channel performance when you use a midlevel multichannel system
Profound understatement.

... try some room treatments like acoustic panels, corner bass traps, or strategically placed acoustic foam panels. In my listenings and measurements, the room acoustics make a noticeable and tangible difference in the sound quality, while amplification upgrades are less significant.
Amen.

rw

Woochifer

07-28-2005, 06:45 PM

L100s and Advents as high end ? (I have a double pair of New Advents in my vintage system) You're kidding, right? Neither is in the same ballpark whatsoever as high end gear.

The attitude emcompassed in that statement is unfortunately indicative of what I alluded to in my post. Notice that I put "high end" in quotations? That was largely because that terminology was hardly used in that era, and even now it's a very arbitrary terminology. Specifics aside (and my point was not to define all of those speakers as "high end"), the point was that all of those types of speakers were sold together under one roof back then. Nowadays, how often do you see mass market speakers getting sold alongside specialty lines such as panels and top-of-the-line statement speakers? In your rush to make a value judgment on what defines "high end," you seem to have missed that, and made my point about how perceptions now drive the audio industry.

Or, choice (b) those of us who knew the 4310 well with it's exaggerated mid bass and glary upper midrange never took them seriously as accurate reproducers. There was later an L110 which was vastly improved in it's neutrality, a trait the L100 Century was never accused of being.

Again, in your rush to make a blanket indictment against a speaker that you obvious don't like, you fail to read the context of what I was getting at.

Are you saying that the L100 was not influential?
Are you saying that it did not produce an optimal sound with certain recordings from its era?

Where the hell did I say ANYTHING about neutrality? That could be one of your criteria, but it certainly does not mean that people who see merit to the vintage JBL sound share your preferences and worldview on all things audio.

Profound understatement.

And thank you for clipping and quoting out of context to make yet another blanket statement.

Amen.

Glad we can agree on something.

Les Adams

07-28-2005, 07:57 PM

Wow! Ok guys! I must first say thankyou to Woochifer for an excellent and very helpful reply and I agree entirely with most of what you say.

Back in the days of the L100 (The studio version was the 4310/4311 and had the drivers mounted the opposite way up - tweeter at the bottom and the crossover controls on a panel at the bottom I recall) I was the manager of the pro audio shop R.E.W. at 114 Charing Cross Road (Now Turnkey) and one of the big selling points of the L100 was that they had the same characteristics as the studio monitors on which mixes of the day were being balanced. Hence the reason why many of them sound so strange today! No, the 4310 and the L100 could never be described as neutral, but the point was that if the engineer in the studio was compensating the eq in accordance to what the JBL's were telling him, it would ONLY sound as he meant it to when played back on JBL's! So, if we are judging a speaker on how accurately it reproduces the sound the engineer and producer WANTED us to hear, the L100's were probably the most accurate speakers of the era! That would certainly put them in my book as "high-end" speakers! I suppose one could get away with a loose comparison with RIAA equalisation. Vinyl records are not eq'd "accurately". Only by applying an opposite curve do we bring them back to sounding as they were intended.. Or am I pushing my luck with this theory?! :-)

Apart from that, it is all too easy to condemn a speaker on the grounds that it is not "accurate", but isn't that rather like dismissing a flavour of ice cream because it isn't pure vanilla "as ice cream should be"? It is all a matter of taste! I can tell you that before I owned the JBL's, I had a pair of Spendor BC 1's and I hated them! I traded them in for IMF ALS40 active line speakers and hated those as well ! The L100's were exactly the right speakers for me and they matched my Quad 33/303 perfectly!

Diving off at a complete tangent here, has anybody ever studied the shape of the human ear to see how it affects our perception of what we hear? If I push my ears forward when listening to music, I hear the sound completely differently. Does this mean that Prince Charles hears a different tonal balance to the rest of us and would he therefore buy different loudspeakers to me?!

Back on topic... There is not much I would be permitted to do in the way of altering the acoustics of the room, my wife almost had kittens when I put up the rear speakers and has often asked me why we can't have one of those "neat little systems" like our friends have! However, there are some issues to consider here and it may well be a contributory factor. I may just have to move house and hope the acoustics are better!

I think the first step is to try the C-Audio amp and see if it goes any way towards an improvement. If it does, I think I will go down this line, followed closely by a dedicated outboard phono preamp, as I also am not sure whether the RIAA input of the Denon is processed or a proper phono stage.

On the subject of speaker cables, I must say i was not convinced for a very long time that they made any difference at all. I recall using the old red and black twisted pair on my L100's and they sounded great1 However, in recent times I have been converted. Before I had the Meridian's, I had a pair of Mission M75's, they were good speakers for the price but I remember how much better they sounded when I replaced the "standard" cables with"Supra" ones, quite remarkable. When I first got the Meridians, I used the Supra leads, then changed them for Supra Rondo Bi-Wire and the definition improved. I then bought some Silver link "Aero" bi-wire cables on Ebay and this made a tremendous difference again. But what does this prove? With the Rondo cable, there was a prominence of upper midrange that was great for vocal and acoustic parts, but electric guitars sounded a bit harsh. When I fitted the Silver link cables, that harshness vanished and the vocals came back down in proportion, the whole tonal balance is far more natural. Now, is this because the rondo cable was in some way adding mid, or, is the silverlink cable attenuating mid thereby cancelling a characteristic of the Meridians that I didn't like? If it is the latter, then surely that means the cheaper Supra Rondo cables were better as they were more accurate! Either way the silverlink cables definitely sound better on this system and the soundstage has improved, along with a fuller and deeper bass, so frankly my dear, I don't give a damn! But it is an interesting point for discussion!

Finally I must thank you all again for the time and trouble you have taken on this topic, it has certainly helped me focus on the issues.

E-Stat

07-29-2005, 08:06 AM

...and my point was not to define all of those speakers as "high end"
Ok, but that's what you said. Evidently, "other" was a misplaced modifier. Now I understand your intention.

In your rush to make a value judgment on what defines "high end," you seem to have missed that, and made my point about how perceptions now drive the audio industry.
My "rush" was to clarify a statement with which few would agree. Since you have subsequently said that's not really what you meant, then fine.

Indeed the big box stores have eliminated one's ability to make judgements on lower cost components because of their "let's stuff forty speakers in one room and crank the hell out of them using clueless audio cowboys" approach to selling. I had to listen through that when I bought some Polks at CC years ago for my HT system. I won't make that mistake again. I probably should have taken more time and listened to better alternatives such as Epos, Alon, etc. where the manufacturer seemingly cares more about their product to assure distribution in an environment where they really can be heard. .

To tell you the truth, I spend very little time today in audio stores. I later discovered a neighborhood "audio salon" with a separate room containing lower cost components that still offers the approach I was accustomed to. I worked in hi-fi while in college in the 70s for a small shop that had three listening environments: Inexpensive systems using matched components placed around the store, a small listening room with H-K receivers and A/D/S speakers, and a much larger room upstairs with Magnepan, Dayton-Wright, Acoustat, Threshold, Audio Research, etc.

Are you saying that the L100 was not influential?
Certainly not. Tons were sold. It was the poster child for the "West Coast sound".

Are you saying that it did not produce an optimal sound with certain recordings from its era?
Those who listened primarily to rock music praised its efficiency and the intentional 2 db midbass and 3 db upper midrange humps. Just like folks who crank the color levels on their TVs. Read JBL's comments as to their design objectives. It was unabashedly not to reproduce "concert realism". Instead, it was to make up for deficiencies in pop recordings.

L100 design (http://lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1973-l100/page3.jpg)

I wonder what they mean by these statements?

"But most present-day recording techniques no longer attempt to recreate a live performance. Instead, a new musical experience is created in the recording studio control room using advanced technical means to expand the sound spectrum. Sounds you can experience only on a record. Sounds which could never exist in a live concert"

Italics mine.

FWIW, the "high end" to me is all about precisely the opposite approach: create components that are voiced and optimized for use with the best recordings. That is not to say one must restrict their musical tastes and recording selections, either. Just don't begin by dumbing down the product. There are some very nice inexpensive mini-monitors that offer very natural midrange response and nice soundstaging capability that I would consider HE. JBL, like Bose excels in marketing and has done financially well for addressing market needs. That's just not a "high end" approach.

rw

kexodusc

07-29-2005, 09:12 AM

Diving off at a complete tangent here, has anybody ever studied the shape of the human ear to see how it affects our perception of what we hear? If I push my ears forward when listening to music, I hear the sound completely differently. Does this mean that Prince Charles hears a different tonal balance to the rest of us and would he therefore buy different loudspeakers to me?!

Wow, I've been preaching this same thing for about 2 years now here. An audiologist acquaintance of mine with a real addiction to vintage gear showed me a bunch of discussion papers that basically proved that the shape of one's ears can alter the apparent frequency response more than any other factor in a stereo setup or even a concert hall! No wonder everyone doesn't agree on what sounds best...it's not just taste, it's an uneven playing field from the start!

I'm waiting for the audiophile industry to patent and market some fancy clip-on ear gizmo that neutralizes or eq's the user's ears to some definition of neutral. Anyone want to go into business? Think of all those exotic cable customers...we can make them out of silver or Kevlar or paper citing unique properties...

Geoffcin

07-29-2005, 04:11 PM

FWIW, the "high end" to me is all about precisely the opposite approach: create components that are voiced and optimized for use with the best recordings.
rw

A lot of my CD collection has be relegated to car duty, as my system shows a lot more of the engineering faults than I care to listen to. That being said, some recordings are so remarkable that you would swear there's a standup bass in the corner, and Diana Krall is in front of you.

Admit it though; you really wouldn't be happy without the Advents out in the garage!

Geoffcin

07-29-2005, 04:14 PM

E-Stat

07-29-2005, 04:38 PM

Admit it though; you really wouldn't be happy without the Advents out in the garage!
I freely admit it! Since I spend a fair amount of time there tinkering with the cars, motorcycle, and reloading, I listen to the DAs more than the Sound Labs. A twenty four year old Threshold Stasis drives them quite nicely. That system was recently improved with some hand-me-down ICs and power cord. Similarly, I spend as much time in the home office listening to my computer based system. The fix I need is music regardless of the system involved. A Sony Diskman with earbuds serves as night duty.

It is nice, however, to retire downstairs for some serious listening though. The U-1s simply disappear (sonically, if not visually).

rw

Geoffcin

07-29-2005, 05:35 PM

I freely admit it! Since I spend a fair amount of time there tinkering with the cars, motorcycle, and reloading, I listen to the DAs more than the Sound Labs. A twenty four year old Threshold Stasis drives them quite nicely. That system was recently improved with some hand-me-down ICs and power cord. Similarly, I spend as much time in the home office listening to my computer based system. The fix I need is music regardless of the system involved. A Sony Diskman with earbuds serves as night duty.

It is nice, however, to retire downstairs for some serious listening though. The U-1s simply disappear (sonically, if not visually).

rw

Got them big U-1s down in the basement and you spend more time with grease under your fingernails listening to old boxes, driven by 1/4 century old amps. Spend even more time listening to a computer based system do you say? I know that feeling!

If there's one guy who deserves cudos for bringing me back into the Audiophile fold it's Henry Kloss, who designed, so many years ago, (8) the ledgendary CSW MicroWorks of which I was one of the first buyers. That little 2.1 computer audio system lit a fire under my butt for audio that didn't stop until I had two sets of 3 series maggies, and 4 sound systems going under one roof. Oh, just got a new set of 595 Sennheiser cans today too!

Music for music sake do you say? I feel your pain!

Woochifer

07-29-2005, 07:19 PM

Wow, I've been preaching this same thing for about 2 years now here. An audiologist acquaintance of mine with a real addiction to vintage gear showed me a bunch of discussion papers that basically proved that the shape of one's ears can alter the apparent frequency response more than any other factor in a stereo setup or even a concert hall! No wonder everyone doesn't agree on what sounds best...it's not just taste, it's an uneven playing field from the start!

I'm waiting for the audiophile industry to patent and market some fancy clip-on ear gizmo that neutralizes or eq's the user's ears to some definition of neutral. Anyone want to go into business? Think of all those exotic cable customers...we can make them out of silver or Kevlar or paper citing unique properties...

Terrence has also posted on this topic many times in my time on this forum. He's indicated that the shape of our ears means that we will hear things differently from the rear than from the front. This basically debunks the old quad-era multichannel speaker setup that has the rear speakers facing towards the front wall, symmetrical to the front speakers.

Personally, I'm waiting for direct synaptic inputs to come onto the market! Who needs ears anyway?

Les Adams

07-31-2005, 09:40 AM

Ok, time for an update.

Today I had the opportunity to drag the C-Audio SR606 amp from the studio into the lounge and hook it up to the Meridian's using the Denon AVR as a preamp. I must say the difference was not as immediate or as drastic as I was expecting, but, there was no doubt after a few swaps back and forth listening to various CD and Vinyl sources that the C-Audio amp gave better depth of soundstage and handled transients better. Mind you, with 650w on board, there was certainly plenty of power in reserve! Imaging also improved a tad and I found myself being able to hear things that much more clearly, particularly effects like vocal reverb, it just "came to life" a bit more.

It did not however cure all the problems and I suspect the room acoustics are, as some of you suggested, a larger contributory factor than I thought. I have noticed that when I stop the CD player while playing loud (I have never done this before today), I can here a very short reflection coming from behind me. The lounge and kitchen are open plan, separated only my a decorative wooden screen and the sofa I sit on, so the kitchen is behind my listening position and the speakers project sound into the kitchen, then it is reflecting back from behind me. This may well be causing some of the confused sounds I am experiencing.

However, given that the change of amp DID make an improvement, I am going to buy a s/h Quad 405-2. There are several on Ebay and even if it doesn't suit the system, Quads sell all day on Ebay so I can almost certainly shift it on.

I will let you know how I get on!

brulaha

07-31-2005, 10:06 PM

A couple of quick statements:

I haven't read the entire thread, so if It's been covered, forgive me...

I subwoofer will produce a dramatic effect in theater listening. As for stereo, it will depend on your speakers. Given they are towers, I doubt your notice a dramatic difference.

Matching your center channel will also give a dramatic difference in theater listening. Not as much as the subwoofer, but it truely can't be understated. I was shocked at the difference when I matched mine, and the previous center was pretty closely matched (i.e. 1" aluminum dome tweeters on both the mains and center etc.)

Speaking as someone who has a denon receiver, and has added an outboard amp for the mains, it gave exactly the effect your were looking for. The clarity improved ten fold. However, it's no where near the dramatic difference of adding a subwoofer or a matching center channel. Also bear in mind that I bumped up to a Proceed 250W 2 channel amp. A considerable jump from the denon's amplification.

Les Adams

07-31-2005, 11:39 PM

Hi Brulaha,

Thanks for the reply. A subwoofer is on the shopping list but a good phono stage is the next priorty I am thinking. The Meridians have plenty of bottom end and it is only really the deepest bass they lack.

To save you reading the whole thread I will fill you in. My priority by far is stereo. To emphasise the point, I have only just put my rear speakers up after moving house two years ago! I am not a great film watcher although my wife is, but she would be happy listening through the TV speakers! In fact, the 3801 was given to me by Denon as a thank you for some R&D work I did for them on their professional products a couple of years back , so I was kind of thrown into the whole cinema thing.

I appreciate the JBL centre is not a perfect match, but it is closer to the Meridians that may seem apparent. When I put the Denon "Level test" signal through the system, there is a tonal difference, but it is midrange prominence on the centre speaker and that helps me hear dialogue when listening at low levels... I am a touch deafer than my wife who likes to keep the volume down.

I picked up a Quad 405-2 on Ebay last night for £140.00 and I am collecting it later today so I will have a better idea of how or if this is going to make much difference tonight. The missus is working this evening so I will be able to have a good session! Quad 405-2's normally go for about £200-250 on Ebay, so even if I decide to revert to the Denon, I could sell it on and maybe make a profit!

I don't know which Denon you have, but I must say I think the power amps in mine are better than I thought. Ok about the proceed amp, very nice! The C-Audio amp I tried is a professional power amp that lives in my studio driving Westlake monitors and is 650 watts p.c. RMS @ 8ohms. The difference was apparent, but not so much that I heard it straight away. In a way this reflected well on the Denon as I was expecting a huge difference. We will see what the Quad does!

Woochifer

08-01-2005, 09:49 AM

Today I had the opportunity to drag the C-Audio SR606 amp from the studio into the lounge and hook it up to the Meridian's using the Denon AVR as a preamp. I must say the difference was not as immediate or as drastic as I was expecting, but, there was no doubt after a few swaps back and forth listening to various CD and Vinyl sources that the C-Audio amp gave better depth of soundstage and handled transients better. Mind you, with 650w on board, there was certainly plenty of power in reserve! Imaging also improved a tad and I found myself being able to hear things that much more clearly, particularly effects like vocal reverb, it just "came to life" a bit more.

That does not surprise me one bit. It's in line with what I've noticed over the years. The effect of the amplification is a lot more subtle than obvious, and not something that jumps out at you and sounds immediately apparent. The effect does vary with the types of speakers used, and the volume level.

It did not however cure all the problems and I suspect the room acoustics are, as some of you suggested, a larger contributory factor than I thought. I have noticed that when I stop the CD player while playing loud (I have never done this before today), I can here a very short reflection coming from behind me. The lounge and kitchen are open plan, separated only my a decorative wooden screen and the sofa I sit on, so the kitchen is behind my listening position and the speakers project sound into the kitchen, then it is reflecting back from behind me. This may well be causing some of the confused sounds I am experiencing.

The room acoustics and the speakers are by far the most measurably variable components in most audio systems. Speakers are easy to package, measure, and specify, so they get a lot of attention. Room acoustics however, are trickier to deal with. Room-induced issues are not subject to quick fixes or all-in-one solutions because they are different in each room, so the issue more or less gets ignored by a lot of stores and listeners alike. Even if a store has an acoustically treated demo room, they don't necessarily carry acoustic treatment products or have any guidelines for shoppers. Unlike upgrading audio equipment, solving acoustical problems involves more than just swapping out components, and often includes a combination of approaches, depending on the problem that a particular room presents.

Les Adams

08-01-2005, 10:17 PM

Gentlemen, something amazing happened in my lounge this evening! I collected the Quad 405-2 and my system has been completely transformed. I could not believe the difference which was so dramatic that it actually sounded strange for the first 30 seconds or so. Having conducted the test with the C-Audio amp as described above, I was not expecting much at all and my ears were ready to hear the familiar sound I have grown accustomed to... and that was why I was so shocked.

After the initial shock to my senses wore off, I suddenly heard a quality and extension of high frequencies I had not experienced till now, then I noticed the midrange had completely changed and was now smooth with highly defined imagery that was simply awesome, then the bass drum kicked in - and the snares flew out of the speakers with a realism I was not expecting. Congas, timbale, EVERYTHING suddenly came to life.. I turned the system up louder, then louder still till I reached a level that made the dog look at one of the Meridian speakers and LEAVE THE ROOM! It was loud, but.. All the unpleasantness and harshness of the upper mid frequencies that previously made me want to turn the volume down had gone.. and I wanted to turn it up some more! One example of this was when I played the Eric Clapton live album "Unplugged". Whenever I have played this CD loud before, I had to turn down the volume between tracks because the audiences' appluase was harsh and unpleasant, almost painful, but now I can leave the volume up and I feel like I am IN the audience!

This seems like exaggeration, but it isn't. Not in my wildest hopes did I think the Quad would make such a transformation... and a transformation is exactly what has happened. Yes the slight reverberation of the room is still there, but it is nowhere near as noticeable and doesn't seem to matter anymore! The whole presentation of sound is in a different league and is extended at both ends. Hi-hats ring out with a sparkle and vocals sit about 3ft in front of the speakers. In fact what seems to have happened is that I am no longer listening to the speakers, I am listening to the music!

You will notice the time of this post is after 7am. I have not been to bed yet. My new (to me) amp has kept me up all night, trying dozens of tracks from vinyl and CD. That was eight hours solid of listening. As a final check that my perception hadn't somehow changed, I connected the speakers back to the Denon amp and the system reverted back to how it sounded before, again this was immediately apparent. The Quad is now re-connected and the Denon will now live its life as a preamp!

Frankly, I would only have expected such a result had I connected an amplifier costing 10 times what the s/h Quad is worth (?142 on Ebay)... and changed the speakers too!

I have heard it said that getting the right combination of equipment is paramount to getting good results and I think that is what has happened here, pretty much by fluke and some helpful advice from people on here I must add.

Woochiffer, until tonight I would have agreed whole heartedly with you about a change of amp not always making a vast difference, but for some reason on this occasion it has. I can't explain it, but my ears are my witness!

Whatever the Quad has brought to the party has just made the whole system gel somehow and I will go to bed with a big cheesy grin on my face!

kexodusc

08-02-2005, 03:31 AM

Interesting results...In my case I've noticed rather significant improvements, much greater than subtle changes you can ofter get upgrading various components. Can't say I've been quite as lucky though as you appear to have been though.

I think that quite often adding amps to a receiver is one of the cheapest, and most cost effective upgrades you can make, but I don't think it applies universally, some NAD and Arcam receivers for example pretty much use the same components in their receivers they'd use in their separates. In my case, the differences don't reveal themselves until I exceed a certain loudness, some where in the area of 75-80 dB (my room is quite large so this might be why), but become more and more apparent as the volume increases. For some with different rooms, equipment, etc, it might not be worthwhile at all, and pursuing room treatements, or looking at other areas for upgrading are probably more cost-effective.

I'm glad you've had good experience with your Quad...now get some sleep.

Ihatehershon

08-02-2005, 11:09 AM

[QUOTE=kexodusc]Interesting results...In my case I've noticed rather significant improvements, much greater than subtle changes you can ofter get upgrading various components. Can't say I've been quite as lucky though as you appear to have been though.

Kex, I read your post on the TSN site about Roberts and Newey and You are sooooooo right. I'm really pissed about that.

Jay

hermanv

08-03-2005, 04:06 PM

Its not clear if you are using the digital decoder in the receiver or the one in the CD player. Since you already own both, it's worth a try, just route the digital out from the CD to the receiver.

If this is how you are already doing it, then borrow a pair of analog interconnects and route the CD audio out to the receiver.

Give it a little break in and listen both ways

Les Adams

08-03-2005, 05:38 PM

Hi Hermanv! Funny you should suggest that, as that is exactly what I have been experimenting with tonight! I went out today and bought a Supra digital interconnect to do the test.

As the Denon can be switched from digital to analogue source with the remote control, it is easy to have all the cables connected and do an instant A/D comparison while the CD is playing. There is a short delay of a second or so, but it is fast enough.

The results were very interesting. I estimate the Arcam Delta 70.3 to be about 10 years old, so I thought the Denon's more modern D/A converter would be better, but it isn't. It is different, but the analogue signal from the Arcam has a deeper and tighter bass and sounds warmer and fuller. At the same time, the midrange sounds slightly more detailed using the Digital connection - damn! However, overall I prefer the sound of the analogue as the difference at the bottom is immediately apparent, whereas the slight gain in mid clarity is dependant on the music, sometimes it is better, and sometimes there is no obvious difference.

It is in the midrange area that I am still experiencing some problems with a "muddling" of sounds. This was much improved by the Quad 405-2, but is still in evidence on some very busy passages of music where it seems to become a bit of a mush and loses definition. Based upon the good results I am getting from the record deck, I think the Denon works well with analogue sources, so I am happy to keep it as a preamp for stereo.

The upshot of all this is that I think the Arcam has to go! I base this decision on the fact that a good CD player will probably have a better D/A than the Denon and (hopefully) a better analogue stage than the old Arcam. So, I have found somebody selling an immaculate Arcam Alpha 8SE, which seems to be a well reviewed machine. That will hopefully give me the "Arcam sound" which I like, but with improved clarity. The Alpha 8SE can also be upgraded to Alpha 9 spec, so that is yet another option I will have.

I still plan to improve the vinyl source with an outbourd preamp, but I am happier with it than I am the CD player.

At last there is a plan! Let me know what you think..

Les Adams

08-05-2005, 07:21 PM

UPDATE: New CD player installed!

I went ahead and bought the Arcam Alpha 8SE (195 pounds on Ebay in as new condition) and collected it yesterday afternoon. It has certainly improved matters and was well worth doing.. I must say this really seems to be a fantastic CD player, better than I expected frankly. Midrange clarity, depth and punch of bass and imaging are improved and I can hear things in my CD's I have never heard before! I can best describe it as more "life like and detailed".

As with the old player, the new one sounds better using an analogue connection, so I think the D/A converters in the Denon receiver are not that good.

I can now hear Eric Clapton's fingers moving up and down the fret of his guitar as though he is in the room with me, strings are sweeter and the CD part of the system is now sounding much better. Vocals are even more defined (they were good before!) and in particular the attack and speed of transient sounds is much better compared to the old Delta 70.3.

Of course there are always things to improve in any system and I still intend to get an outboard phono stage, but I am at last happy that the system is getting more balanced with components that seem to be doing justice to each other and it is getting harder to spot the weakest link!

Now I just need to sort out the room acoustics if I can and maybe then look at the A/V side of things, like a new centre speaker or maybe a subwoofer would be priority?

Geoffcin

08-06-2005, 05:09 AM

Les Adams

08-06-2005, 07:41 AM

I must say the Delta 70.3 was a fantastic machine, I bought that second hand 6 years ago and I don't remember it ever skipping or playing up. If this machine is as reliable my next will be Arcam also. Unfortunately Arcam tell me the 8SE is no longer upgradeable to a 9, which was my plan, but this is so good I am not too worried.

I would dearly like to buy some of those CD's but it seems HMV do not have a section for them, they are all mixed in with the other stock. Any idea where I can find out what is available? Maybe you have suggestions for the best ones to get. Not into classical, but acoustic / vocal music of any kind is good. Thank you.

Geoffcin

08-06-2005, 10:33 AM

Les Adams

08-06-2005, 10:48 AM

Geoffcin

08-06-2005, 10:59 AM

Thank you. I had a brief look and I must confess I do not know any of the artists, but rather handily there is a "listen" function, so I will give it a try.

I found some on Ebay earlier and I have put in bids for three I liked the look of, so hopefully I will be experiencing HDCD soon!

I don't know anything about HDCD, how it works, or what it does apart from improve the listening experience, but as I have it I may as well try it! (This concept got me into a lot of trouble when I was young I remember!)

To improve the quality of digital audio recordings and playback while remaining compatible with the CD specifcations. I can hear a marked increase in quality with HDCD encoded disks. OF course anything of value in the digital area is eventually bought up by Microsoft, so here's where you can find some info on HDCD;

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/hdcd/hdcdabout.aspx

Les Adams

08-06-2005, 11:06 AM

Thank you again. Believe it or not, I am on the radio at the moment! (till 10pm). The show comes from my home studio and is sent down the phone line to Solar Radio / Sky digital using broadband. You can listen at Solar Radio - SKY CH879 or give the high-speed broadband a go.. www.solarradio.com (http://www.solarradio.com) be interested to hear what you think of the quality! Technics SL1200 broadcast turntables / Shure WHLB cartridges - Denon digital broadcast mixer - Denon DND-9000 professional CD players - Neumann U87 mic - TLA Valve processor + various bits!.

I think you will be surprised by the quality if you have broadband! I am playing classic 70's and 80's Jazz funk! Everything is on vinyl in the show tonight.

hermanv

08-08-2005, 12:40 PM

Audiophilia is an easy to catch disease, luckly the only long term health effects seem to be to one's wallet.

The even better news is the rediscovery of listening to musicians perform their art as opposed to having some music just playing in the background.

Maybe the long term benifits for health as a stress reduction mechanism outweigh the costs.

I hope you enjoy this new hobby as much as I have. :)

Les Adams

08-08-2005, 05:12 PM

Hi Herman.

This is a re-visit to audiophilia for me. I don't know if you read my earlier posts, but many years ago I had a Thorens TD125/SME/V15III - Quad 33/303 - Spendor BC1 (replaced by JBL L100's because they suited the rock music I was into at the time) plus various bits of what was back then considered "high-end" kit.

The hobby lapsed for many years, but was rekindled recently, with a passion!

I had particular pleasure tonight when a friend came round to dub some of his vinyl on to CDR in my studio. We started chatting about music and audio equipment and he revealed to me that he had never sat between two speakers and experienced imaging! At home he has one speaker by the sofa where he sits and the other over by the TV! So, I took him into the lounge and made him sit in my listening position. I played him various passages of music including the audiophile virgin vinyl pressing of Simple Minds "Alive and kicking" on the 401, then some tracks on the Arcam 8SE. I turned the lights down low and he shut his eyes (of his own accord). I could see the expression on his face as he witnessed good soundstage for the first time.

Afterwards he sat describing what he had heard and how, in his words, it was "the first time he had ever SEEN music" and described how the vocalists and instruments were placed. He ended up staying for about two hours longer than intended and he sat listening to each recording as though he had never heard music before! He confessed he "had never heard anything like it" and remarked that if there were a black cloth draped in front of the speakers, he would not have known where they were and would have thought there was an array of speakers, not just two!

He eventually left to go home and re-arrange his lounge!

I do believe we may have another convert to the fold!

I still have not experienced HDCD, but I have purchased some discs by mail order and they should arrive in a day or so. I have great expectations now that I finally have a system that is sounding refined, balanced and exciting - to my ears anyway!

One thing I am proud of is that I have built this system on a relatively tight budget. With the exception of the Denon equipment (bought new at cost price direct from a friend who works for Denon) the JBL centre speaker and the V15Vxmr cartridge, all the rest was bought second hand, mostly on Ebay. The entire setup has cost me a little under 2K pounds.

Les.
________________________________________

Equipment list:

Garrard 401 turntable
SME 3009S2imp non-det shell arm
Shure V15Vxmr cartridge
Arcam 8SE CD player
Denon AVR 3801 A/V receiver (used as pre-amp only for stereo)
Denon DVD1500 DVD player
Quad 405-2 power amp
Meridian A500 front speakers / Silverlink Aero bi-wire cables
JBL control centre speaker
Gale Satellite rear speakers
Supra interconnects.

hifitommy

08-28-2005, 07:08 PM

do NOT buy the quad 404 unless it will be a rear channel amp. it just doesn't sound that good. and for the money you would pay for a 405, you would be wasting your money for a rear channel amp. find a cheeeeeeper amp for the rears and a BETTER amp for the fronts!

atkinson at stereophile just wrote about what i heard years ago, the 405 just didn't have it. not a great product. find some adcoms, b&k, or parasounds, or nearly ANYTHING else for the fronts. i think youll find the 405 is rather costly for the rear.

Les Adams

08-31-2005, 10:50 AM

Hi Tommy. Thank you for your comment, but I am surprised by what you say about the Quad. As it happens, I have already bought one and it sounds fantastic on the front speakers. It is a vast improvement over the Denon! Mind you, this is a 405-2 that has had some internal modififications. I am not exactlly sure what has been done, but some uprated components have been fitted.

I would also agree with what you say if you are talking about a 405 mk1. I tried one of those years ago and I was not impressed. The 405-2 sounds completely different.