Plasma (1120HD) and display of very dark/black objects.... [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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MCF
07-26-2005, 05:22 AM
My new Pioneer 1120HD has a great picture, but I notice that in slightly dark to very dark scenes, black objects like hair or a black suit become slightly blotchy or washed out. I know that displaying dark objects in dark scenes is one of the struggling points for Plamsa, but would adjustments to settings like color, sharpness, contrast, color temperature, etc. help improve this? I pretty much have everything set at factory level except for color (-8) and tint (-2). Color temperature is set to medium.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
07-26-2005, 05:41 AM
My new Pioneer 1120HD has a great picture, but I notice that in slightly dark to very dark scenes, black objects like hair or a black suit become slightly blotchy or washed out. I know that displaying dark objects in dark scenes is one of the struggling points for Plamsa, but would adjustments to settings like color, sharpness, contrast, color temperature, etc. help improve this? I pretty much have everything set at factory level except for color (-8) and tint (-2). Color temperature is set to medium.

I would recommend that you calibrate your plasma using Avia or any other test disc with video test signals. But blacks have always been a problem with fixed paneled video devices.

edtyct
07-26-2005, 06:15 AM
Sir T's right about the blacks, but your plasma is among the very best on that score. Brightness/ contrast levels out of the box might have something to with what you've noticed, and you can certainly try the sharpness control; sharpness in plasmas is more apt to need a drop than a lift. Oversaturated color might also have something to with loss of detail. Rather than getting all balled up in a tizzy with trial and error yourself, you'd be wise to get a calibration disk.

But this loss of detail could also stem from a DVD player, or a particular output from a DVD player, which sometimes can crush black and destroy detail. Samsung's DVI outputs were notorious for that, as are those of any digital device that outputs PC black levels rather than video black levels (particular disks and broadcasts can do it, too, but less likely). Also, certain DVD players with Faroudja processing can exacerbate problems with MPEG decoding, resulting in macroblocking, a blotchy look in colored or dark backgrounds. Denons and Panasonics are particulary susceptible to this disease.

Plasmas' own difficulty with black is usually more an inabiltiy to handle subtle dark gradations (false contouring or the creeping moss syndrome) or a compromised grayscale than an inherent tendency toward blacker than black. As I said, your model, is among the best in this context. I don't recall, however, whether it has a setting whereby you can toggle between PC (RGB) and video (YPbPr) black levels. If so, opt for the latter. Same point applies to your DVD player or STB; check setup and avoid PC black if possible. Also, use the warm temperature setting on he Pioneer; it might be listed either as "warm," "low," "medium," or "D65" (even if it varies greatly from D65).

Ed

MCF
07-26-2005, 07:12 AM
Thanks!! I read that the Pioneer should be great at displaying blacks. I have the AVIA DVD but have only used it for sound calibration. Luckily I still have the little 'color strips' that came with it and will try to calibrate the tv using the DVD. If I make it worse, I can always reset to default settings. I also just read about the sharpness and that too sharp will result in Halos. I will try it at -2 or -4 (right now at zero). Regarding color temperature, I have a choise of Low, Medium Low, Medium, Medium High and High. I read a review that the 'Low' setting on the Pioneer is closest to 6500K..is this what I want for watching DVD's and HD digital cable? The problem with the blacks seems more apparent while watching HD tv...like last night with CSI Miami in high def......

edtyct
07-26-2005, 07:35 AM
MCF,

Yes, the low setting is the one to use. If I recall correctly, unlike many that claim to be at 6500K, Pioneer's is actually close throughout the grayscale. Avia should help immensely, but color and black levels vary between standard def (including 480p) and high def. You may well have to create different settings for different inputs, if your HD, SD, and DVD sources are separated that way. If not, you'll have to find a reasonable compromise, unless you want to be changing settings constantly (I personally have to go the compromise route, since I use the same digital input via an external switch for every source). Try bringing up contrast and brightness slightly when watching HD. Maybe that will restore some of the lost detail. What kind of DVD player do you use? Does it pass blacker than black information? If so, it will make setting the black level on the Pioneer easier and finer.

Ed

MCF
07-26-2005, 07:43 AM
is a Sony 5 Disc DVD player...it's progressive scan and is about two years old. Don't know about any specifics of output on DVD player. Unfortunately, all my component signals from DVD player and Time Warner Box go to my AVR and then a single component cable out of AVR to Pioneer Media box so I will also have to find a good compromise between DVD and cable. I will increase contrast from factory setting of + 40 to + 45 (as recommended by you and review of tv), increase brightness from 0 to +5 (as recommended by you and review of tv), drop sharpness from factory setting of 0 to -2 to -4 and set color temperature to Low and see how this does. I will use AVIA, but probably not till this weekend. Anything else?

edtyct
07-26-2005, 07:58 AM
I can't help you much with the DVD player. Many of the better Sony players pass blacker than black, which permits an accurate base-level black setting with the Pluge test screen on calibration disks. Just follow Avia's instructions. Since you'll be using component, you won't have to suffer from any infelicities that a digital output might create. But I would suggest that you bypass the AVR's video section and go directly into the media box for your most important source, if you can. It might not make much of a difference, but it certainly could. The media box has only one component input? Yikes.

Ed

MCF
07-26-2005, 09:16 AM
I just like being able to pick the input on the AVR (1 for component, 2 for S-video used for OSD) and then the correct picture and sound is sent to tv and avr. If I send component straight from say DVD player to the media box I have to select the source on both the AVR and the Media box/tv. Simple enough for me, but these little changes really start confusing the wife. What would I really gain by going straight from the DVD player and/or Time Warner Cable Box to the media box instead of going to AVR and then out of AVR with a single component cable?

edtyct
07-26-2005, 10:35 AM
You can't tell until you try. The simplest signal path is always subject to the least possible degradation, but it may not matter. And you're sure that the component inputs on the AVR have HD-capable bandwidth, right? Not all of them do. If so, you can skip this option and concentrate on calibration and other setup functions. After all that, if you still think that the video has room for improvement, direct connection to the media box can be your last, or at least a secondary, resort. I must admit that I would be surprised if direct access helped your black crush, or washout (whatever it is); my money's on the other possibilities that I mentioned. But stranger things have happened.

Ed

MCF
07-26-2005, 11:26 AM
Thanks. As a minimum, running inputs straight to media box would allow me to calibrate each input independently, but if I use the AVIA DVD to calibrate, then that will only calibrate for the DVD input and I wouldn't have anything to use to calibrate for the cable box input. I think I will leave connections as is for now, use AVIA to calibrate the DVD/cable input. If I use AVIA, do you put any weight into ISF Calibration considering the little I have looked into it appears that it would be around $400 to have an ISF calibration done in Houston for two inputs (DVD and cable)?

edtyct
07-26-2005, 11:55 AM
There isn't a display out there that wouldn't benefit to some degree from an ISF technician calibrating grayscale and checking the color points, but this is a personal decision. If money were no object, why not spring for it? Otherwise, AVIA calibration may be perfectly satisfactory (I'm curious how your problem with black responds to it). I'm willing to bet that your plasma is less needy than most TVs out there, and ISF will be there if you should have a little scratch to burn down the road, when some of the novelty and excitement of watching a superb plasma has worn away a little. In the meantime, check out Joe Kane's site or other ISF sites for more information on what to expect.

MCF
07-27-2005, 05:47 AM
thanks...did the AVIA calibration last night and it did make very noticeable improvement. Watched Collateral last night again (awesome movie) and didn't have any problems with greys and blacks. Very good since most action scenes in that movie are relatvely dark. Contrast came out to 45 (exactly what one review said to set it at), brightness came out to +8, sharpness -1 and adjusted color and tint (which helped alot). Also, setting temp. to Low seemed to help. Another thing I did was experiment with some of the Pro Settings. I had them all on and on max (min/med/max are choices). Now I have one off and the others set to Min. Thanks again.

edtyct
07-27-2005, 08:40 AM
My pleasure. I'm glad that it worked out. I would been surprised if calibration didn't help the cause. As I keep saying, the Pioneer 1120HD is plasma at its best. See ya.

Ed