SACD/DVD-Audio.....or Just Stick with Standard 2 Channel Stereo?

[Lexmark3200]

It's time for another one of THESE discussions in here....

I recently relocated and with my cherished home theater system I boxed away my Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck (the model escapes my mind offhand, but it wasnt progressive scan, believe it or not).....at any rate, I purchased this deck THINKING I was going to buy into the DVD Audio format at some point.....well, many years later, still with the same DVD player, I have not bought into the format and STILL seem VERY satisfied with standard stereo CD; in fact, MOST of the titlles that are released on SACD and DVD-Audio are not even ones I would buy.....SOME, but not most....

So, I wonder......being that MOST of my listening is done in the car using custom-made CD-R compilation mixes I burned myself on my Marantz DR700 CD recorder from different albums or off of CD singles, is it WORTH it for someone like me to buy into DVD Audio or SACD and begin replacing all my CD titles ---- I mean, thats a near impossible task, given my collection numbers which are astronomical; I wouldnt financially be able to do it....

Are some of you finding standard CD to still be "okay" for when listening in standard two channel stereo mode on your amps or receivers, as I prefer? Is it absolutely NECESSARY that we upgrade to DVD Audio and/or SACD decks or are standard CD changers/players doing alright in most people's systems right now?

This multichannel music bug upgrade just hasnt bitten me yet --- I seem to prefer my music in two channel stereo when at home, and in the car, well, you know.....there are four to six speakers surrounding me anyway......I like to reserve "multichannel" for film and DVD watching, as Im ALWAYS searching for DVD titles with DTS soundtracks on them.....but for audio, is there anyone else that shares the passion for good, old fashioned stereo CDs and stereo mode when doing at-home listening? Are we missing out on something MASSIVE without DVD Audio or SACD?

[GMichael]

It's time for another one of THESE discussions in here....

I recently relocated and with my cherished home theater system I boxed away my Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck (the model escapes my mind offhand, but it wasnt progressive scan, believe it or not).....at any rate, I purchased this deck THINKING I was going to buy into the DVD Audio format at some point.....well, many years later, still with the same DVD player, I have not bought into the format and STILL seem VERY satisfied with standard stereo CD; in fact, MOST of the titlles that are released on SACD and DVD-Audio are not even ones I would buy.....SOME, but not most....

So, I wonder......being that MOST of my listening is done in the car using custom-made CD-R compilation mixes I burned myself on my Marantz DR700 CD recorder from different albums or off of CD singles, is it WORTH it for someone like me to buy into DVD Audio or SACD and begin replacing all my CD titles ---- I mean, thats a near impossible task, given my collection numbers which are astronomical; I wouldnt financially be able to do it....

Are some of you finding standard CD to still be "okay" for when listening in standard two channel stereo mode on your amps or receivers, as I prefer? Is it absolutely NECESSARY that we upgrade to DVD Audio and/or SACD decks or are standard CD changers/players doing alright in most people's systems right now?

This multichannel music bug upgrade just hasnt bitten me yet --- I seem to prefer my music in two channel stereo when at home, and in the car, well, you know.....there are four to six speakers surrounding me anyway......I like to reserve "multichannel" for film and DVD watching, as Im ALWAYS searching for DVD titles with DTS soundtracks on them.....but for audio, is there anyone else that shares the passion for good, old fashioned stereo CDs and stereo mode when doing at-home listening? Are we missing out on something MASSIVE without DVD Audio or SACD?

I have heard a few multi-channel recordings that I like more than 2 channel. But only a few, and the two channel still sounded very good as well. With that said, I'd rather have the choice to pick out the format I like better for any given DVD. As for the car, I like to record my DVD's onto a std 2 channel CD. I leave those in the car.
There was a thread that argued both sides of this a couple of months back. And when I say "argued", I mean they were fighting big time. Both sides made some good points. The 2 channel advocates don't want to A: Throw out all of their old recordings. B: Have to spend mega bucks on high end surround speakers. (seems that some people would rather spend $20k on two speakers than $70k on 7. Or they could spend the $20k on 7 but not get the same quality for each.
Anyway, it wasn't clear to me who won that fight.

[Lexmark3200]

I hear you Michael, but can you clear these few things up for me, please?

"With that said, I'd rather have the choice to pick out the format I like better for any given DVD."

What do you mean by this-----did you mean for any given CD?

"As for the car, I like to record my DVD's onto a std 2 channel CD. I leave those in the car."

What do you mean here when you say record your "DVD"s for the car-----you mean record your standard two channel "CD-R"s? Thats what I do too, making custom mixed CD-Rs for the car......but is that what you meant because you said "DVD"s......

"The 2 channel advocates don't want to A: Throw out all of their old recordings"

THIS is what I am worried about, being that I already have a surround set up and would only need to buy the SACD deck and the software titles......but is it worth it?

[GMichael]

I hear you Michael, but can you clear these few things up for me, please?

"With that said, I'd rather have the choice to pick out the format I like better for any given DVD."

What do you mean by this-----did you mean for any given CD?

"As for the car, I like to record my DVD's onto a std 2 channel CD. I leave those in the car."

What do you mean here when you say record your "DVD"s for the car-----you mean record your standard two channel "CD-R"s? Thats what I do too, making custom mixed CD-Rs for the car......but is that what you meant because you said "DVD"s......

"The 2 channel advocates don't want to A: Throw out all of their old recordings"

THIS is what I am worried about, being that I already have a surround set up and would only need to buy the SACD deck and the software titles......but is it worth it?

I have some DVD recordings of music. Like live recordings and videos. Most of these have a choice to play back on 2 channel, DD or DTS. When I record a CD for the car I select 2 channel, My CD recorder only gets the audio portion from my Yammie so it has no problem recording.

[Lexmark3200]

I have some DVD recordings of music. Like live recordings and videos. Most of these have a choice to play back on 2 channel, DD or DTS. When I record a CD for the car I select 2 channel, My CD recorder only gets the audio portion from my Yammie so it has no problem recording.

Oh, I see......I didnt get what you meant at first......

Jeez, and who left which brain at home today?? LOL. Looks like it was me........

[GMichael]

Oh, I see......I didnt get what you meant at first......

Jeez, and who left which brain at home today?? LOL. Looks like it was me........

After I read what I wrote it was easy for me to see how it made little sense without the explanation. I tend to leave out the details when I'm writing sometimes.

[Lexmark3200]

After I read what I wrote it was easy for me to see how it made little sense without the explanation. I tend to leave out the details when I'm writing sometimes.

No biggie......and whats your take on whether or not standard two channel common CD is "okay" for people like me who enjoy multichannel more for cinema watching----do you agree that standard CDs that are still being sold are just as good for the most part for two channel music listening (although I know SACD is supposed to sound WICKEDLY better in two channel than standard CD)?

Is the jump into DVD Audio or SACD UTTERLY NECESSARY right now? Like I said, I have a Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck that I bought with the intentions of using to get into DVD Audio and it just never happened.....Im more hooked on multichannel CINEMA --- that is DVD Video --- than I am on multichannel MUSIC; to me, music sounds best coming from two speakers in stereo in front of you, where a band would normally sit and play for you.......

[GMichael]

No biggie......and whats your take on whether or not standard two channel common CD is "okay" for people like me who enjoy multichannel more for cinema watching----do you agree that standard CDs that are still being sold are just as good for the most part for two channel music listening (although I know SACD is supposed to sound WICKEDLY better in two channel than standard CD)?

Is the jump into DVD Audio or SACD UTTERLY NECESSARY right now? Like I said, I have a Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck that I bought with the intentions of using to get into DVD Audio and it just never happened.....Im more hooked on multichannel CINEMA --- that is DVD Video --- than I am on multichannel MUSIC; to me, music sounds best coming from two speakers in stereo in front of you, where a band would normally sit and play for you.......

I will probably deal with this change the same way that I dealt with the changes in the 70's. 8 track was what was in. I had 100's of them. Recorded my LP's and made best of this and that tapes. In comes the new casset tapes. Now in high bias so the quality was better. Get rid of my 8 tracks? No way! Eventually I added a casset player/recorder to my system. For a while I used both. Started to notice how much better the cassets were. Still, I had some old 8 tracks that couldn't be replaced. In the end, the 8 tracks disapeared. Try to buy one now at a music store. HAHAHA

Change the names above to CD, DVD, SACD or anything else that comes along. In the end, all things change. Out with the old and in with the new. The new becomes old and gets replaced again. We buy the new equipment. Run both for a while, and then the old fades away into history.

I was and am a big fan of the band Rush. I bought every 8 track they made. Then I replaced them with every record they made. Then I replaced those with every CD they made. Will music quality ever top out? Who knows.

Is the jump into DVD Audio or SACD UTTERLY NECESSARY right now? Not for me. I will wait for now. It may fall away the same way that quad did. Remember quad? How about Beta? Let's see if it catches on first. Then I'll start replacing again, again.

[Lexmark3200]

I will probably deal with this change the same way that I dealt with the changes in the 70's. 8 track was what was in. I had 100's of them. Recorded my LP's and made best of this and that tapes. In comes the new casset tapes. Now in high bias so the quality was better. Get rid of my 8 tracks? No way! Eventually I added a casset player/recorder to my system. For a while I used both. Started to notice how much better the cassets were. Still, I had some old 8 tracks that couldn't be replaced. In the end, the 8 tracks disapeared. Try to buy one now at a music store. HAHAHA

Change the names above to CD, DVD, SACD or anything else that comes along. In the end, all things change. Out with the old and in with the new. The new becomes old and gets replaced again. We buy the new equipment. Run both for a while, and then the old fades away into history.

I was and am a big fan of the band Rush. I bought every 8 track they made. Then I replaced them with every record they made. Then I replaced those with every CD they made. Will music quality ever top out? Who knows.

Is the jump into DVD Audio or SACD UTTERLY NECESSARY right now? Not for me. I will wait for now. It may fall away the same way that quad did. Remember quad? How about Beta? Let's see if it catches on first. Then I'll start replacing again, again.

I guess this is the most definitve answer we're gonna get on this topic ---- and you are right ---- just wait and see, as we did with VHS to DVD, which was WORTH the upgrade, and we all did it ---- we'll have to see if this upgrade to multichannel music is going to just "come as natural" as that did......thanks for the peace of mind!

[BillB]

2-Channel CD all the way. When it came time to get a nice DVD player for my HDTV I figured I'd get a universal player should either/both of the formats take off.

Two years on and I've got a handful of titles in both formats but, like you, the majority of the stuff available just isn't my cup of tea. Both formats have lost support from the majors and DualDisc absorbed all of their (the record companies) interest. It's a sketchy format at best and, IMO, is unlikely to be around 5 years from now.

By 2010 it will be:

1) Good old CD still
2) Hi-Rez downloads
3) A new optical disc format that includes both hi-rez audio and video.

Bill

[Lexmark3200]

2-Channel CD all the way. When it came time to get a nice DVD player for my HDTV I figured I'd get a universal player should either/both of the formats take off.

Two years on and I've got a handful of titles in both formats but, like you, the majority of the stuff available just isn't my cup of tea. Both formats have lost support from the majors and DualDisc absorbed all of their (the record companies) interest. It's a sketchy format at best and, IMO, is unlikely to be around 5 years from now.

By 2010 it will be:

1) Good old CD still
2) Hi-Rez downloads
3) A new optical disc format that includes both hi-rez audio and video.

Bill

Thank you for your thoughts, Bill......so, you are DEFINITELY an advocate for 2 channel CD that is still popular and available everywhere then?

[shokhead]

CD's are more mainstream and multi-channel is more specilized for people like us on these forums. 16-25 could care less about multi-channel. So SACD and DVD-A will take even longer to catch on but better titles would sure get them going faster. Another way they will get going will be multi-channel players in cars.

[JSE]

You will not be able to replace your currect collection of CDs with DVD-A nor SACD. There are only a handfull of titles out their and they tend to be "classic" albums for the most part. Zep, Floyd, Yes, Metallica, etc. There are some newer titles released but they are few compared to standard CDs.

Take a look at Best Buy and CC selections, they are getting smaller. This will be the nail in the coffin for these formats. I give them another 3 to 5 years in a niche market.

I have a few DVD-A titles and they are impressive compared to my CDs. If I have a DVD-A title, I will grab it over my CD title. I must say I really enjoy DVD-A, it's just never caught on with the masses. And that is who record companies listen to. Not us "Audiophiles" who represent a small fraction of the market.

If you have a DVD-A player, then I would go ahead and pick up a few title just to try out but like I said, it's a dying technology.

JSE

[Lexmark3200]

"CD's are more mainstream and multi-channel is more specilized for people like us on these forums. "

Well, I consider myself an audiophile-in-training (just an enthusiast level right now), and I enjoy these boards, and I still enjoy 2 channel CDs.....

"16-25 could care less about multi-channel."

You mean 16 to 25 year OLDS? That is true.......they run into the CD store and buy that latest Jay Z CD with no cares about the quality......however, I find that when I buy standard, ordinary stereo CD, it simply sounds just fine to me.....especially in the car.

"So SACD and DVD-A will take even longer to catch on but better titles would sure get them going faster."

I agree; there just arent enough titles for my liking or my listening/recording/hobby habits, which include gathering rare promo CD singles of bands and making a mixed CD-R of music; this is why SACD and DVD Audio hasnt caught on for me yet.

"Another way they will get going will be multi-channel players in cars."

There are a few makes that are out that already have 5.1 surround systems ---- Acura has the new TL and RL sedans which have 5.1 surround audio systems, but, to me, in reality, a car environment is difficult to comment on because dont forget --- you ALREADY HAVE the surrounding speakers in a car system --- the two up front, the two in back, and some tweeters on the dash (at least my car has them)......although when playing STANDARD CD through a normal car stereo the delivery is not DISCRETE DOLBY 5.1 SURROUND, it is still "surrounding" you with sound.......so in the car Im not really worried about this experience of "multichannel"..........

[Lexmark3200]

"You will not be able to replace your currect collection of CDs with DVD-A nor SACD. There are only a handfull of titles out their and they tend to be "classic" albums for the most part. Zep, Floyd, Yes, Metallica, etc. There are some newer titles released but they are few compared to standard CDs. "

Whew......a load off my mind, seriously......although those are some GOOD bands you mention there of which I have many of their CDs......damn........

"Take a look at Best Buy and CC selections, they are getting smaller. This will be the nail in the coffin for these formats. I give them another 3 to 5 years in a niche market."

Serious? I hadnt taken notice when I went to the stores......interesting.......

"I have a few DVD-A titles and they are impressive compared to my CDs. If I have a DVD-A title, I will grab it over my CD title. I must say I really enjoy DVD-A, it's just never caught on with the masses. And that is who record companies listen to. Not us "Audiophiles" who represent a small fraction of the market."

True.

"If you have a DVD-A player, then I would go ahead and pick up a few title just to try out but like I said, it's a dying technology. "

Well, J, once I unpack my stuff and get into a new place of my own, I'll do what you suggest and try some DVD Audio discs; I guess I'll keep my Panasonic player then after all, even though its not progressive scan and doesnt upconvert to the higher res specs, which is what I wanted to upgrade my DVD player for..........

But perhaps you are right ---- since I have it, I may as well hook it up and see what DVD Audio is all about.....

JSE[/QUOTE]

[BillB]

You mean 16 to 25 year OLDS? That is true.......they run into the CD store and buy that latest Jay Z CD with no cares about the quality......however, I find that when I buy standard, ordinary stereo CD, it simply sounds just fine to me.....especially in the car.

You're lucky if they even do that (most download).

If a favorite album of yours is available on DVD-Audio go ahead and try it out. I would NOT buy a DVD-Audio/SACD player thinking you're going to replace the majority of your CD collection because it likely won't happen.

I'm VERY happy with CD sound quality. I do appreciate the occasional HiRez release that comes along that I'm interested in but that's rare.

Bill

[JSE]

You're lucky if they even do that (most download).


Download/Mp3 has almost single handedly killed hi rez. Most consumers can download an album or song and then burn it for use in their home system, office stereo, bedroom stereo, car system, discman, computer or whatever. Low quality but very versatile which is what most people want.

Hi Rez? Hi quality but you can only play it on your home system's DVD-A/SACD player and that is it. You can't really burn it, download it or anything else.

It ashame because I really think it's a superior format when done right.

JSE

[Lexmark3200]

Thanks for the replies, guys; I guess Im not going to run out and buy an SACD deck right now, then; in the meantime, I will, as JSE suggested, hook up my Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck once I get settled in my own place, and experiment with a disc or two to see how I like it......

And JSE, THAT was my main concern also with these new multichannel hi res formats; that the RECORDING of them just isnt available yet------one of my favorite hobbies was to make my own custom burned CD-R mixed compilation discs on my Marantz CD recorder, and you just cant do that with SACD or DVD-Audio (RECORD, I mean).......

[hifitommy]

i learned that lesson long ago. keep everything. mc can be derived from DPL on the 2ch sources. i am surrounded with dynaquad passive surround only. all sources surround me, even the fm. i did not buy a 6ch pre/pro to accommodate sacd. nor will i.

if i pulled the 8track wollensak out of the garage and lubed and re-belted it, i would be surrounded by that too. sometimes technology outdoes itself, mch is one of those areas. the need for LF (bass) management is a good example.

i have numerous duplicate recordings in different format and am not dumping ANY.

[musicman1999]

rebuy cds no thanks

i have gear to play all three formats.i own about a dozen sacd,one dvd-audio and about 1000 cds.quality wise my cd player is far above the other two players,so cd is my main focus.i have borroed a few dvd audios from friends and to be honest found the quality a mixed bag.most were not that impressive.i have had better results from sacd but most are 2 channel only.the only one i found really worth multi channel playback was dark side of the moon(made for multi channel).imho nothing beats a good cd player,solid speakers and good power.maybe when the new high def audio is common high rez will have a chance.

bill

[ryanpreusser]

frankly i think people that buy a surround sound system mainly for music are retarded.....music is recorded with only left and right channle so spitting it out in the center rear left etc. makes no difference....in fact i find it to be less enjoyable that way. with dvd audio, if u go any higher in quality than cd, i find it hard to tell a difference. the only difference in sound quality will come from your receiver/amp and speakers anyway.....quality of the music only goes so far then comes your equitment:D

[Lexmark3200]

"imho nothing beats a good cd player,solid speakers and good power.maybe when the new high def audio is common high rez will have a chance."

I agree pretty much with everything you say here, Bill.....in my opinion, nothing beats sitting down in front of two speakers with a two channel stereo CD played in a good CD player (or changer, as in the case of MY Marantz CC67) and enjoying music in two channel --- or, as another member suggested, MAYBE using my A/V receiver's PRO LOGIC II MUSIC mode for certain discs, such as live concerts, which pushes the crowd noises into the surrounds better. But I agree --- buy and leave standard stereo CD alone for now and watch your films in multichannel glory.

[Lexmark3200]

"frankly i think people that buy a surround sound system mainly for music are retarded"

Agreed; although there are people like me who are using our surround multi-channel receivers ONLY IN STEREO mode when playing back CDs; I didnt buy my surround setup mainly for music, I use it mainly for DVDs and FILM PLAYBACK --- for serious music listening, I think it can be said and agreed upon here that TWO CHANNEL is the way to go --- whether it be through an integrated amp, stereo receiver or two channel power amp and a good CD player/changer; it seems to be the concensus of this board that multichannel music is not going to last as long as conventional CD has or will.

But for music listening, I usually use my receiver's STEREO mode, which I believe makes the music sound best on ordinary CD recordings.

"music is recorded with only left and right channle so spitting it out in the center rear left etc. makes no difference"

Well, I have had some success with using my Onkyo receiver's PRO LOGIC II MUSIC mode for certain CDs, such as live concerts, which puts the crowd noises into the surrounds, but thats it, and as you say below:

"i find it to be less enjoyable that way"

"with dvd audio, if u go any higher in quality than cd, i find it hard to tell a difference. the only difference in sound quality will come from your receiver/amp and speakers anyway.....quality of the music only goes so far then comes your equitment"

Interesting point. So you dont see a need for DVD Audio or SACD over CD?

[shokhead]

frankly i think people that buy a surround sound system mainly for music are retarded.....music is recorded with only left and right channle so spitting it out in the center rear left etc. makes no difference....in fact i find it to be less enjoyable that way. with dvd audio, if u go any higher in quality than cd, i find it hard to tell a difference. the only difference in sound quality will come from your receiver/amp and speakers anyway.....quality of the music only goes so far then comes your equitment:D

Just because you have a surround setup doesnt mean you cant use it as a straight 2ch. So you dont like a live concert? Its not L&R coming at you. A music hall is made to be filled with music,not stopping at you. :p

[hifitommy]

frankly i think people that buy a surround sound system mainly for music are retarded.....music is recorded with only left and right channle so spitting it out in the center rear left etc. makes no difference....in fact i find it to be less enjoyable that way. with dvd audio, if u go any higher in quality than cd, i find it hard to tell a difference. the only difference in sound quality will come from your receiver/amp and speakers anyway.....quality of the music only goes so far then comes your equitment:D
i dont advocate the mixes where instruments are placed behind the listener BUT used properly, surround for music will extract the natural ambience of the recording venue. my favorite example is dire straits-on the night-a LIVE recording, exemplifies the 'you are there' effect that ambience extraction can impart to a good recording.

the dts version of the eagles-hell freezes over-is the epitome of the surround idiocy of having the listener within the band. sorry, cant enjoy that.

those that dont have dynaquad probably DO have DPL which is a derivative of dynaquad only with logic steering. with the rear level set to barely be perceptible on a conventional stereo recording, live recordings will come ALIVE.

the DPL will work on any source so being surrounded can be ubiquitous, at my house it is.

[shokhead]

Steve Hoffman thinks everything will be surround if the format doesnt die. He would choose SACD to use of any of the formats. He thinks SACD is the best dig audio and makes everything sound more lifelike.

[Lexmark3200]

"Just because you have a surround setup doesnt mean you cant use it as a straight 2ch."

THATS what I was trying to get at, regarding using a surround receiver's STEREO mode.

[Lexmark3200]

i dont advocate the mixes where instruments are placed behind the listener BUT used properly, surround for music will extract the natural ambience of the recording venue. my favorite example is dire straits-on the night-a LIVE recording, exemplifies the 'you are there' effect that ambience extraction can impart to a good recording.

the dts version of the eagles-hell freezes over-is the epitome of the surround idiocy of having the listener within the band. sorry, cant enjoy that.

those that dont have dynaquad probably DO have DPL which is a derivative of dynaquad only with logic steering. with the rear level set to barely be perceptible on a conventional stereo recording, live recordings will come ALIVE.

the DPL will work on any source so being surrounded can be ubiquitous, at my house it is.

Tommy,

I guess with what you are saying is what I was trying to get at regarding using PRO LOGIC II MUSIC on the receiver to derive "surround information" from standard CD, which is what I do when listening to live recordings to give the soundstage a bit of a more "real, live" feel.....

[shokhead]

I still go back and forth on PL2 and DTS Neo 6

[Lexmark3200]

I still go back and forth on PL2 and DTS Neo 6

Some audiophiles I have "bantered" with on other home theater sites will argue that using these modes on a receiver is NOWHERE NEAR the same experience as buying DISCRETE multichannel SACD or DVD Audio recordings and listening to them on REAL SACD or DVD Audio decks.....

But the main question here still remains: is good, old fashioned stereo two channel CD "good enough" to enjoy even though all these new hi-res multichannel and SACD two channel formats are out with many titles (although, according to JSE, dwindling all the time)?

[musicman1999]

i think the real question here is 2-channel versus multichannel,not cd versus high rez.
it is a personal taste question.a lot depends on your system.i have heard dvd-a on cheap gear sound awful,a proper multichannel music system needs to be set up differently than a hometheatre system.i have also heard cd on systems costing upwards of $50,000 and it was incredible,far better than any multichannel system i have heard.

my own personal preference is to listen in 2 channel,i have tried pl2 and neo6 and it just does not do it for me.i have cd,sacd,and dvd-a players and they are all set up to play 2 channel.
just my opinion
bill

[shokhead]

I've said it before,of all the formats,my fav is DTS music disc.

[Lexmark3200]

"my own personal preference is to listen in 2 channel,i have tried pl2 and neo6 and it justdoes not do it for me."

I agree; whenever I run CDs in Pro Logic II MUSIC or another mode, like ALL CHANNEL STEREO, something does not seem right --- it seems two channel is always the way to go to simply sit down with a nice CD changer or player (in my case it's a Marantz CC67 five disc changer thats in storage right now) and flipping your receiver into STEREO mode, and listening that way; I dont really know if I should "buy into" the multichannel disc formats yet because I dont know what to make of them; but I do play back live CD material --- such as Metallica's S&M --- with Pro Logic II Music so there is some live crowd ambient surround information.

"i have cd,sacd,and dvd-a players and they are all set up to play 2 channel.
just my opinion"

I didnt know DVD Audio could be set up to play two channel.....I thought the whole benefit of DVD Audio WAS for multichannel experience.....so whats the point of the DVD Audio disc then? Why not just listen to a normal CD?

[musicman1999]

yes dvd-a can play in stereo,at least all the ones i've heard were,but i am pretty sure that this is the case..

bill

[RGA]

Buy a good turntable.

SACD? There is a cheap $150.00 Cad pioneer that is supposed to be pretty good. Nothing about SACD has wowed me that much. But given that the Pioneer is cheap -- when i replace the DVD player I have I shall buy the universal player and experiment.

No law says you can't have all the formats.

[Lexmark3200]

"Buy a good turntable."

Indeed RGA; I have a MASSIVE vinyl collection that I refuse to get rid of and a decent Technics table and Audio Technica cart to play them on; I was raised as a vinyl junkie as a mobile DJ, so I have no problems with the analog sound.

I guess I just wanted to know, when it comes to CD vs. SACD or DVD Audio, is conventional stereo redbook CD "still okay" to most playing out of a good player or changer and driving in stereo mode to two good speakers and a sub.......

[Lexmark3200]

yes dvd-a can play in stereo,at least all the ones i've heard were,but i am pretty sure that this is the case..

bill

Hmmmmm.....interesting......

[musicman1999]

I guess I just wanted to know, when it comes to CD vs. SACD or DVD Audio, is conventional stereo redbook CD "still okay" to most playing out of a good player or changer and driving in stereo mode to two good speakers and a sub.......[/QUOTE]
almost never use my sub for 2-channel.fronts only.
bill

[shokhead]

"Buy a good turntable."

Indeed RGA; I have a MASSIVE vinyl collection that I refuse to get rid of and a decent Technics table and Audio Technica cart to play them on; I was raised as a vinyl junkie as a mobile DJ, so I have no problems with the analog sound.

I guess I just wanted to know, when it comes to CD vs. SACD or DVD Audio, is conventional stereo redbook CD "still okay" to most playing out of a good player or changer and driving in stereo mode to two good speakers and a sub.......

Its ok if its ok with you. Do what you like but dont dismiss multi-channel and dont forget SACD hybrid.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

SACD and DVD-A as we currently know them is dead IMO. They may reshow themselves attached to the new video formats, but as they are now they are no more. I have seen a slowing of both releases, and what can be found in stores and online. Sony still has not incorporated SACD spec to its BlueRay format, so I am really doubtful at this time if we will ever see it again. DVD-A specs are incorporated into both BlueRay and HD DVD.

I think multichannel music is at a impasse at this time. There is plenty of product in the pipeline, but everything is on hold to see what new format will emerge that it can be encoded in to. I have stopped purchasing both DVD-A's and SACD's until some things shake out of the mix.

[shokhead]

DVD-A are ok if they have DTS also.

[Lexmark3200]

Its ok if its ok with you. Do what you like but dont dismiss multi-channel and dont forget SACD hybrid.

Im not dismissing multichannel; I just think I am finding I prefer it for CINEMA playback and experience on DVD VIDEO discs rather than for audio --- in fact, the hobby resonates within me regarding DVD VIDEO and its available surround audio schemes.....DTS, DTS ES, Dolby Digital, etc......

[Lexmark3200]

SACD and DVD-A as we currently know them is dead IMO. They may reshow themselves attached to the new video formats, but as they are now they are no more. I have seen a slowing of both releases, and what can be found in stores and online. Sony still has not incorporated SACD spec to its BlueRay format, so I am really doubtful at this time if we will ever see it again. DVD-A specs are incorporated into both BlueRay and HD DVD.

I think multichannel music is at a impasse at this time. There is plenty of product in the pipeline, but everything is on hold to see what new format will emerge that it can be encoded in to. I have stopped purchasing both DVD-A's and SACD's until some things shake out of the mix.

Thanks for your thoughts, Terrence......I too feel like you, that I think I need to wait until "things shake out of the mix"; for now, I will continue analyzing and enjoying multichannel sound for DVD VIDEO and see what High Def DVD brings......

[Chas Underhay]

SACD and DVD-A as we currently know them is dead IMO. They may reshow themselves attached to the new video formats, but as they are now they are no more. I have seen a slowing of both releases, and what can be found in stores and online. Sony still has not incorporated SACD spec to its BlueRay format, so I am really doubtful at this time if we will ever see it again. DVD-A specs are incorporated into both BlueRay and HD DVD.

I think multichannel music is at a impasse at this time. There is plenty of product in the pipeline, but everything is on hold to see what new format will emerge that it can be encoded in to. I have stopped purchasing both DVD-A's and SACD's until some things shake out of the mix.

Thats exactly what I was predicting would happen when I was last on this site, about eighteen months ago. Never thought it would happen quite so quickly though. I was one of those who extolled the virtues sticking with your LP collection for better or for worse which gave rise to much myrth by some

To be honest I wouldn't advise anyone to buy any SACD or DVD-A discs, the chances are that even if you already have the means to play them, when it is time to replace the player (things like that don't last forever), it will be as hard to find a new compatible player as a new 8 track player.

[JSE]

Im not dismissing multichannel; I just think I am finding I prefer it for CINEMA playback and experience on DVD VIDEO discs rather than for audio --- in fact, the hobby resonates within me regarding DVD VIDEO and its available surround audio schemes.....DTS, DTS ES, Dolby Digital, etc......

Just remember, DVD-A and SACD are completely different than DTS, DTS ES, DD, etc. Pressing one of these formats on your receiver for playback is something completely different than DVD-A and SACD. Like I mentioned before, if you have six spare audio patch cables lying around, hook up your DVD-A and buy a title or two and see what you think. Just remember, to get DVD-A/SACd sound, you have to use the 6 analog outs on your DVD player. Without these hookups, you are not hearing DVD-A/SACD hirez sound. This is a common mistake made by many people. They just hook up the audio on their DVD-A/SACD player with an optical or digital coax and assume they are getting DVD-A/SACD sound when they are not.

JSE

[JSE]

Im not dismissing multichannel; I just think I am finding I prefer it for CINEMA playback and experience on DVD VIDEO discs rather than for audio --- in fact, the hobby resonates within me regarding DVD VIDEO and its available surround audio schemes.....DTS, DTS ES, Dolby Digital, etc......


Actually, after looking at your DVD player in your equipement list, it's not a DVD-A player. The Panasonic DVD-RP56 does not support DVD-A.

JSE

[Lexmark3200]

"Just remember, to get DVD-A/SACd sound, you have to use the 6 analog outs on your DVD player. Without these hookups, you are not hearing DVD-A/SACD hirez sound. This is a common mistake made by many people. They just hook up the audio on their DVD-A/SACD player with an optical or digital coax and assume they are getting DVD-A/SACD sound when they are not."

I am aware that a six analog connection is needed for this format, JSE, and you are correct.....most make the mistake of getting DVD Audio sound from their digital cables which is completely WRONG.

[Lexmark3200]

Actually, after looking at your DVD player in your equipement list, it's not a DVD-A player. The Panasonic DVD-RP56 does not support DVD-A.

JSE

Well, actually, the equipment list you see in my profile is a temporarily "borrowed" system which belongs to my family ---- I DO own a Panasonic DVD player that supports DVD AUDIO and VIDEO, but its packed in storage because of my recent relocation, if you read the first post I made. THATS the player I was talking about.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thats exactly what I was predicting would happen when I was last on this site, about eighteen months ago. Never thought it would happen quite so quickly though. I was one of those who extolled the virtues sticking with your LP collection for better or for worse which gave rise to much myrth by some

LP is an unacceptable medium for music IMO. I would rather have 4 channel 2" tape than a LP. I would rather stick with CD than go to LP. LP's are too big, require too much care, the players require too much maintanence, it require too much money per performance. In other words I could, for cheaper, get CD to sound as good as LP. Besides, just because SACD and DVD-A are dead, doesn't mean multichannel music is dead. It will just have a new platform. I care less about SACD and DVD-A than I care about multichannel music, and LP doesn't do surround, which I think IS the way music should be done. LP is hampered by too many compromises, and always will be.


To be honest I wouldn't advise anyone to buy any SACD or DVD-A discs, the chances are that even if you already have the means to play them, when it is time to replace the player (things like that don't last forever), it will be as hard to find a new compatible player as a new 8 track player.

I agree with you there, but this still would not turn me to the LP for my musical entertainment.

[Lexmark3200]

So Terrence,

Do you believe standard, two channel ordinary redbook CD (did I get enough descriptions in there? LOL) can be "enjoyed" by enthusiasts and audiophiles just as much as these new hi res formats can (DVD Audio, SACD) as everyone pretty much predicts their life spans wont last?

I used to be a vinyl-only junkie, listening to nothing but LPs and 45s, but you are right --- they just require too much damn care and in the end, nothing really sounds like a CD.....BUT, there are some recordings that DO sound WARMER on LP and compared to their CD counterpart, the CD version is just "flat" and "metallically unnatural" sounding....

[oldskoolboarder]

about 2 years ago. It's a Denon 2200 connected to my Pioneer 45TX. I search high and low for multichannel discs w/ music I like. I don't buy classical so the list becomes REALLY small. I also only buy discs that are specifically mastered for multichannel. Even smaller list. As of today, I have about 5 multichannel discs. The format has potential, the discs I do have sound great. BUT, I still can't find music I like, the music companies still haven't released content. Perusing the SACD/DVDA sections at Tower and Best Buy remind me of the Betamax sections of years ago.

I recently picked up a Pioneer PL117D TT w/ OMB10 cart, total $75. I like the analog sound better than I do w/ my multichannel stuff. Even better now that I have a tube power amp. In hindsight, I would've spent the money to improve my 2 channel sound vs multichannel. Should've gotten a DVD player w/ DVI instead.

[Chas Underhay]

LP is an unacceptable medium for music IMO. I would rather have 4 channel 2" tape than a LP. I would rather stick with CD than go to LP. LP's are too big, require too much care, the players require too much maintanence, it require too much money per performance. In other words I could, for cheaper, get CD to sound as good as LP. Besides, just because SACD and DVD-A are dead, doesn't mean multichannel music is dead. It will just have a new platform. I care less about SACD and DVD-A than I care about multichannel music, and LP doesn't do surround, which I think IS the way music should be done. LP is hampered by too many compromises, and always will be.

Never really intended to get into a debate as whether LP is superior to CD, Iv'e seen these debates go on over four pages or more and still get nowhere.

My point is that I am sceptical about any new format for pre recorded music past, present or future.

It is easy to see why the 78 was successful, because there was no alternative.

When the LP came out it offered the advantage of having about five times the storage capacity of a 78 and the then new record players with their flip over styli would still play 78s (convenience). The LP was a great sucess even though the 78 (at least theoretically) was capable of producing better quality due to its higher operational speed. Also at that point in time there was still no mass market alternative.

When CD came out it offered more convenience still, personally, I thought it sounded bl00dy vile but am the first to admit that it performed a lot better on a cheap sh1t player than LP did and thats exactly what 99.9999% of people had. Since then, hardware has improved, portability has improved (personal and in car players etc) and it is now recordable (so bye bye cassettes as well).

We've all seen other formats (8 track, betamax etc) come and go over the years, thery are now all either just history or curiosities.

CD's market supremecy, and I believe it will remain for many years, is now been eroded not by "Hi Res" formats but by the internet and personal storage, lower quality but more convenience. There will never be enough interest in these Hi Res or multi channel formats for them ever to be remotely commercially viable so you will never be able to get the titles you want.

I would advise all to just forget about chasing new format technology and if you want improvements; spend wisely on getting best possible out of, as well as enhancing your existing collections of LPs CDs or even 78s.

If you want even better quality than that spend your money on tickets to live events.

[biatch0]

I was going to create a new thread here, but since this appears to be THE SACD thread... I'll post here instead.

I'd just like some recommendations/suggestions/info on SACD. I've currently got an old Onkyo DX-2700 CD player hooked up to a Marantz PM7000 and a pair of Allison Acoustics bookshelves... and I'm currently considering my next upgrade. I'm fairly interested in moving to SACD but I'm not very certain about a lot of things; especially connecting the SACD player to my current amp. Will a simple SACD setup require me to change amps for connectivity?

I'm only looking at an entry level SACD setup at best right now (due to financial constraints what else?)... input please?

[shokhead]

6 analog connection.

[shokhead]

Everything you say about the new format has and was said about multi-channel formats before until they dicided to go with two. Two might be the downfall if it happens. And after BlueRay if thats what it is and then the next new format,well you see it just keeps going.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I was going to create a new thread here, but since this appears to be THE SACD thread... I'll post here instead.

I'd just like some recommendations/suggestions/info on SACD. I've currently got an old Onkyo DX-2700 CD player hooked up to a Marantz PM7000 and a pair of Allison Acoustics bookshelves... and I'm currently considering my next upgrade. I'm fairly interested in moving to SACD but I'm not very certain about a lot of things; especially connecting the SACD player to my current amp. Will a simple SACD setup require me to change amps for connectivity?

I'm only looking at an entry level SACD setup at best right now (due to financial constraints what else?)... input please?

I would say do not upgrade to SACD(this is VERY difficult for me to say as a big fan of this format) its a format that is on its way off the map. I would wait until either of the new formats(hopefully BlueRay) to emerge as multichannel music will definately find its way onto one of them. Both have the spec's for high resolution audio, with BlueRay having the spec's for what I call ultra high resolution audio at 24/192khz over eight channels. HD-DVD has spec's for 24/96khz over the same eight channels.

[biatch0]

Thanks for clearing that up... Guess I'll go with a standard CD player for now then :)

[shokhead]

I would say do not upgrade to SACD(this is VERY difficult for me to say as a big fan of this format) its a format that is on its way off the map. I would wait until either of the new formats(hopefully BlueRay) to emerge as multichannel music will definately find its way onto one of them. Both have the spec's for high resolution audio, with BlueRay having the spec's for what I call ultra high resolution audio at 24/192khz over eight channels. HD-DVD has spec's for 24/96khz over the same eight channels.

And then the next great format and so on and so on. Nobody knows if DVD-A and or SACD will die just like nobody knows if BlueRay will take off.

[biatch0]

In all honesty, this is a very valid point as well... either way, it seems to me that the best course of action right now is to go with the standard CD which is unlikely to die anytime soon regardless of what new formats come out. If and when BlueRay (or some other technology) does actually establish itself, only then consider the next purchase.

The question now, is whether to go with an entry level CD player that is just sufficient... or go for something slightly higher end (taking into consideration that my current amp is nothing to shout about)?

[JSE]

In all honesty, this is a very valid point as well... either way, it seems to me that the best course of action right now is to go with the standard CD which is unlikely to die anytime soon regardless of what new formats come out. If and when BlueRay (or some other technology) does actually establish itself, only then consider the next purchase.

The question now, is whether to go with an entry level CD player that is just sufficient... or go for something slightly higher end (taking into consideration that my current amp is nothing to shout about)?


Is there something lacking in your CD player now? Onkyo makes pretty CD players. An entry level CD player is not going to be much of an upgrade, if at all. There are a lot of ways to upgrade a system, just not sure going from an older decent cd player to an entry level cd player or even mid level cd player is going to give you much of an upgrade. A thought, you might look at adding a sub. That would definitely add low end to your bookshelves and be more of an audible upgrade compared to a new CD player.

JSE

[E-Stat]

And then the next great format and so on and so on. Nobody knows if DVD-A and or SACD will die just like nobody knows if BlueRay will take off.
FWIW, I have as yet not jumped on the Hi-Rez bandwagon for the market acceptability reason STtT has pointed out. I find very good Redbook better overall for my tastes than low-end SACD.

Although I am primarily a two channel music guy, I'm convinced that the next long term standard will necessarily be designed foremost as a video format with advanced audio capabilities. That is clearly where the largest market lies. It would seem Blue Ray has the edge here.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

FWIW, I have as yet not jumped on the Hi-Rez bandwagon for the market acceptability reason STtT has pointed out. I find very good Redbook better overall for my tastes than low-end SACD.

Although I am primarily a two channel music guy, I'm convinced that the next long term standard will necessarily be designed foremost as a video format with advanced audio capabilities. That is clearly where the largest market lies. It would seem Blue Ray has the edge here.

rw

Unfortunely where the real market lies is in low rez audio that is downloadable, cheap, and easily accessable. Nobody cares about sound quality anymore, or SACD and DVD-A wouldn't have never failed inspite of how poorly it was marketed, and how difficult it is to incorporate into a existing multichannel system. People just don't sit and listen to music anymore which I think is really sad. I may be wrong, but I don't think any hi rez format will ever emerge as a mass market product, and if it does, it will have to do it on the coattails of hi rez video.

[E-Stat]

Unfortunely where the real market lies is in low rez audio that is downloadable, cheap, and easily accessable. Nobody cares about sound quality anymore...
Indeed. Most folks have no idea (nor really care) how good musical reproduction can be.


I may be wrong, but I don't think any hi rez format will ever emerge as a mass market product, and if it does, it will have to do it on the coattails of hi rez video.
I believe we agree - just that I didn't express my view very clearly! I think that ALL of the successive formats will be primarily video based and that audio applications may simply be indirect benefactors.

Development of new audio-only formats is history.

rw

[shokhead]

Unfortunely where the real market lies is in low rez audio that is downloadable, cheap, and easily accessable. Nobody cares about sound quality anymore, or SACD and DVD-A wouldn't have never failed inspite of how poorly it was marketed, and how difficult it is to incorporate into a existing multichannel system. People just don't sit and listen to music anymore which I think is really sad. I may be wrong, but I don't think any hi rez format will ever emerge as a mass market product, and if it does, it will have to do it on the coattails of hi rez video.


Yep. Wham,bam,thank you mam.

[TerryB]

Having just invested in a Reference Levinson CD combination, i certainly HOPE that CD won't become obsolete anytime soon!! Although a hi-fi enthusiast, i'd still consider myself a fairly average punter with respect to my tolerance to a miriad of new formats. Anyone with a good system will know just how good "ordinary" 2 channel CD playback can sound, so i have to ask - why would we NEED another format, other than for the manufacturers to find something else to make money from?

I honestly believe we HAVE topped out in terms of sound quality - i mean, just how much better, easy to use etc does it have to be for the average man in the street? The only real threat i see is in terms of MP3 type formats eliminating, or at least reducing the demand for physical CDs. Personally i can't see myself EVER going down that route, not with what i know at present, anyway.

[Chas Underhay]

i certainly HOPE that CD won't become obsolete anytime soon!!

When you have sound quality comparable to LP (No this is not intended to start a digital vs analogue debate, I only said comparable) with the convenience and recordability of cassette tape I believe that CD would be a very hard act to follow and will be around for a long time.



Anyone with a good system will know just how good "ordinary" 2 channel CD playback can sound, so i have to ask - why would we NEED another format, other than for the manufacturers to find something else to make money from?

Very astute, my sentiments entirely.


I honestly believe we HAVE topped out in terms of sound quality .

I think we topped out forty or more years ago, don't laugh, I can prove it. Take a good (obviously not all ) c1965 LP (doesn't matter whether it's jazz pop or classical), play it on a modern, good quality record player and listen to just how good the sound recording quality is!

To clarify, I said LP for one reason only and that is that with the CD of the same recording it is not known what has been lost, gained or changed during the transcription from analogue to digital.

[TerryB]

All very true, Chas, i for one am a big vinyl advocate. But unless i'm *really* in a hands-on sort of mood, the extra hassle of turning over the disc, being forced to listen to every track in order etc etc just makes me turn to CD on most occasions. And that's why i think for the vast majority of users, CD will continue to be all they'll ever need. Cheap, durable, and great sound quality. Maybe the manufacturers wish it hadn't been so successful first attempt round - it seems to me with all these new formats they're just trying to re-invent the wheel. Until and unless i see something that is *significantly* better and easier to use than CD, i'm paying it no attention whatsoever.

[shokhead]

Its all about money. Things were nice with CD's and DVD's but its gotten out of control and all fuc$ed up and $$$$ and impossible to keep up. I got out of this crap for a good 10 years because of all the changes. I can see something replacing the cd. Something small like a chip or mini hard drive you can change like a changer.

[Cincy2]

Lots of good thoughts in this thread. Here are my two cents:

1. With the current generation of high end digital front ends, amplifers and speakers we have reached the point where they can now accurately portray the nuances of live music - IF the source material is of the same quality. I have a dCS front, Halcro monoblocks and B&W 800D's that get the job done.

2. Both the SACD format and the redbook CD format are capable of reproducing music that sounds like its live. Anyone who has listened to the best of Chesky's recordings or Mapleshade's latest on a high quality system in a properly treated room would not disagree. Each format is also capable of playing dreadful, screeching noise if the recording engineer didn't take care of business.

3. High resolution, audiophile grade music in any format will always be a niche market because most people don't care if the music sounds live. We are at the mercy of the needs of the large market segments who drive what the software and hardware format guys come up with.

What to do then? Buy the best system you can afford, spend money on the labels that make the highest quality recordings, Enjoy the Music.

EG

[Chas Underhay]

Its all about money. Things were nice with CD's and DVD's but its gotten out of control and all fuc$ed up and $$$$ and impossible to keep up. I got out of this crap for a good 10 years because of all the changes. I can see something replacing the cd. Something small like a chip or mini hard drive you can change like a changer.

What ever happens, ignore it for at least five years, after that time it will probably have disappeared (e.g. 8 Track, Betamax, Laser Disc, DAT, Mini disc, SACD, DVDA etc). If after five years it is still there, it will almost certianly be there to stay and most of the bugs will have been ironed out by then. So that is the earlist time to even consider it.

Chase new technology at your peril.

[Chas Underhay]

1. With the current generation of high end digital front ends, amplifers and speakers we have reached the point where they can now accurately portray the nuances of live music - IF the source material is of the same quality. I have a dCS front, Halcro monoblocks and B&W 800D's that get the job done.EG

My kit is classified (people might laugh) but its been doing exactly what you said with the minimum of fuss for many years.


What to do then? Buy the best system you can afford, spend money on the labels that make the highest quality recordings, Enjoy the Music.EG

Nice thought but what getting best possible (within reason) out of the hundreds or thosands of dog eared old records that you really do want to listen to

[shokhead]

What ever happens, ignore it for at least five years, after that time it will probably have disappeared (e.g. 8 Track, Betamax, Laser Disc, DAT, Mini disc, SACD, DVDA etc). If after five years it is still there, it will almost certianly be there to stay and most of the bugs will have been ironed out by then. So that is the earlist time to even consider it.

Chase new technology at your peril.

8-Tracks were around for a while and its been at least 4-5 years for DVD-A and SACD hasnt it?

[Chas Underhay]

8-Tracks were around for a while and its been at least 4-5 years for DVD-A and SACD hasnt it?

Can't remember exactly with 8 tracks but it wasn't around all that long. I know I had one in my car in the mid 70s and I think the format was already on it's way out by then. As for DVD-A and SACD, after 4 or 5 years we now know it is as good as dead. It took about 5 years for CD players to sound OK and plasma screens cost mega bucks when they first came out and the performance was crap. So I think a 5 year period is a reasonable time to wait and see.

[shokhead]

4-tracks were late 50's and 8-track were late 60's into the early 80's.

[Chas Underhay]

4-tracks were late 50's and 8-track were late 60's into the early 80's.

Maybe this as a case of different sided of the 'pond' I've never heard of a 4-track, if we did have them in the UK they were rare. Nearest thing I ever saw to that would have been talking books for blind people, I remember we had a blind neighbour and he used to have them (about the size of a video cassette I seem to remember) and a device to play them on which was the size of a record player. Perhaps that was a 4-track, they were never in mainstream use though.

I certianly wouldn't dispute late 60s for the start of 8-tracks but cassette tape was already around by then as well. I can remember my father buying a home 8-track player around about 1975 and at that time it definately was a toss-up between 8-track and cassette. His decision was made purely on the fact that we already possessed a quite few tapes.I can't even remember now whether or not you could actually record on it.

I don't know about the US but over here 8-track was only ever really used in cars, people used reel to reel at home. In fact, I've still got my old Ferrograph 3AN in the loft. It must have been made in about 1960, I was given it, probably in the early 70s. It is supposed to be a portable but that just means it has got a handle on the side, you can't actually lift it and walk with it, bit like a portable Hammond B3.

I moved out in 1976 and a couple of years later bought a cassette deck and I know that by then 8-track no longer figured in the equation over here.

[shokhead]

Here,everything had an 8-track player and the market was fairly wet with them and it did take cassettes a few to really start to replace them. I remember 4-track well. Big,heavy,chrome,open players.

[Chas Underhay]

Here,everything had an 8-track player and the market was fairly wet with them and it did take cassettes a few to really start to replace them. I remember 4-track well. Big,heavy,chrome,open players.

I suppose that shows how a stretch of water can give totally different perceptions of things.

In the late 50s you would have been lucky to have had a heater in an English car. Even if it was a quality car with a heater like a Jaguar, you still needed an overcoat.

I guess cassettes caught on earlier here as 8-tracks must have been less established. I don't suppose more than about 10% cars ever had them here, mostly young people, never really mass market.

All the best

[Feanor]

It's time for another one of THESE discussions in here....
...
This multichannel music bug upgrade just hasnt bitten me yet --- I seem to prefer my music in two channel stereo when at home, and in the car, well, you know.....there are four to six speakers surrounding me anyway..... Are we missing out on something MASSIVE without DVD Audio or SACD?
See the thread begun by me in General ...

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=14312
IMHO, multi-channel is worth it and is the most significant benefit of SACD (and DVD-A presumably).