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gcook67
07-04-2005, 07:51 PM
I have finally completed my home theater system and when playing a dvd that offers Dolby Digital or DTS Digital I often wonder which of the two will sound better.

ups767300
07-04-2005, 07:57 PM
I have finally completed my home theater system and when playing a dvd that offers Dolby Digital or DTS Digital I often wonder which of the two will sound better.

I always go straight for the DTS soundtrack, It always sounds better to me although not by wide margin, its louder and seems to have deeper or fuller bass than the DD track.
Andrew

N. Abstentia
07-04-2005, 10:00 PM
Yep. If you got DTS, use it!

Lexmark3200
07-04-2005, 10:46 PM
Dts, Hands Down, No Contest. Always.

musicman1999
07-05-2005, 03:21 AM
dts,usually,but sometimes the differences are subtle.when i first became dts capable i tested many discs to determine for my self which i prefered.my first thought was that the dts was louder and that made it seem better.after matching volumn levels i got down to serious listening.the end result is that if a rental has dts i dont test anymore,i just pick it.
thanks
bill

kexodusc
07-05-2005, 03:36 AM
There's some really good Dolby Digital soundtracks out there, and I wouldn't be surprised if some sound better than DTS, but yeah, for the most part, DTS is just a superior format.
In many cases the differences aren't night and day and can be very close, but if you see a DTS option, you should select it. I'm always disappointed when I buy a DVD that doesn't have DTS.

Worf101
07-05-2005, 06:00 AM
I've several DVD's with both soundtracks. ie. "Gladiator" and I' find the difference to be rather obvious on those movies. If you've the hardware, use it, you won't regret it.

Da Worfster :D

BrentMcGhee
07-05-2005, 06:48 AM
They way i have always understood it is that the actual encoding of the two tracks is where the difference lies. The dts encoders use less compression than that of the eqivalant dolby digital track. Now the audible differences of varying levels of compression is very subjective and can not always be distinguished by the human ear however they are there. So for that reason alone, seeing that on paper a dts track will always sound better i always select when there is the option to.

Just kind of a point of refrence a 2hour long Dolby digital track will be right around 300Mb where that same track but encoded with dts will be around 750Mb.

As for the extra volume that you are hearing, you are absolutley correct. When movie soundtraks are mixed all channels are leveled out to 85db so everything is smooth across all speakers, that is why it is so important to level all of your speakers with an spl meter so you don't defeat the purpose of the leveling the mixing stage of things. But on a DTS track they level all speakers to 88db and the lfe track to 90db for that added punch.

sam9
07-05-2005, 07:37 AM
I seem to find that when there is a choice I like the DTS a track a little better. However, I'm not convince that either one is potentially better. So far as I know no one has ever produced a disc where the varibles were controlled in a way that an unambiguous DD vs DTS comparison can be made.

I've also read that it may not be possible to actually make such a disc because some of the "variables" can't be equalized. Most specificly, DD uses a sort of gain riding algorithm that constantly adjusts the center channel to make dialog more audible against the background of other sounds, whereas DTS does not do this. If this is true (I'm just writing hearsay) then maybe a 4 channel (no center) comparisson could be done.

Lexmark3200
07-05-2005, 09:51 AM
I've several DVD's with both soundtracks. ie. "Gladiator" and I' find the difference to be rather obvious on those movies. If you've the hardware, use it, you won't regret it.

Da Worfster :D


GLADIATOR is a PERFECT example of doing an A/B switch comparison --- there is a NIGHT AND DAY difference between this Signature Series' disc's Dolby track and its DTS ES track.

Lexmark3200
07-05-2005, 09:54 AM
And, aside from perhaps only ONE TITLE ---- Warner Brother's TERMINATOR 3 --- I have never personally experienced or auditioned ANY Dolby Digital mix that sounded "hotter" or superior to a DTS mix ---- when comparing the two formats, it always seems to be that Dolby Digital soundtracks first of all need more volume power to get going, where DTS tracks are usually hotter in comparison. THATS the main thing. There is also detail missing in Dolby soundtracks sometimes that are on DTS tracks ---but for the most part, I find that in comparison, Dolby Digital soundtracks seem like they need to have a "blanket" pulled off of them in comparison to the DTS tracks....and then there is the dialogue problem between the two.....because of Dolby Digital's dialogue normalization technique, the dialogue on Dolby Digital tracks seem SO much lower in comparison to the rest of the action on screen, where this doesnt happen with DTS, to MY ears.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
07-05-2005, 11:19 AM
They way i have always understood it is that the actual encoding of the two tracks is where the difference lies. The dts encoders use less compression than that of the eqivalant dolby digital track. Now the audible differences of varying levels of compression is very subjective and can not always be distinguished by the human ear however they are there. So for that reason alone, seeing that on paper a dts track will always sound better i always select when there is the option to.

Just kind of a point of refrence a 2hour long Dolby digital track will be right around 300Mb where that same track but encoded with dts will be around 750Mb.

As for the extra volume that you are hearing, you are absolutley correct. When movie soundtraks are mixed all channels are leveled out to 85db so everything is smooth across all speakers, that is why it is so important to level all of your speakers with an spl meter so you don't defeat the purpose of the leveling the mixing stage of things. But on a DTS track they level all speakers to 88db and the lfe track to 90db for that added punch.

Brent.
I think you may have some things mixed up. First to everyone, Dts is not louder, DD is softer because of the effects of dialog normalization process on DD tracks that is not present on Dts tracks. With a dialog norm value of -4, the DD soundtrack will be approximately 4db softer than the Dts soundtrack. That explains the level differences.

The monitoring level for mixing(which is before encoding with DD or Dts) is 85db. Not 88 or 90db. Both encoded mixes are monitored at simular levels.

Woochifer
07-05-2005, 11:27 AM
Much of this is a case-by-case proposition. DTS has several advantages (i.e. higher bitrate, scalable resolution and channel configuration, true 6.1 format, etc.), but as with anything, that advantage can vary considerably in practice. Just because a specific disc has a DTS soundtrack that sounds better than the DD track does not say anything about the format itself, only that the tracks on THAT particular disc sound different.

In most cases, especially with the DTS tracks that were encoded before DTS encoders were made available to outside professionals, the DTS tracks were encoded separately from the DD track. If the two tracks were not encoded from the same master feed, then they might have been prepared very differently (different channel levels, different processing, different EQing, etc.). Before, DTS did all of the encoding in-house, which made it impossible to discern whether any audible differences were due to better mastering/mixing and a better master source, or if the format itself was responsible.

It's nonsense to say that DTS will have a clearcut audible advantage in all cases, because that's simply not true. With a lot of the discs in my collection, the difference between the DTS and DD track is negligible. In the case of Pulp Fiction: Collector's Edition, the DTS soundtrack sounded worse than the DD track, but that was also case where the DTS track sounded like the mix was redone, so any differences had little to do with the format itself. With discs like Gladiator and T2 where the DTS track sounds noticeably better than the DD track, I believe that those were encoded by DTS in-house, so they were prepared separately from the DD track and might have any number of additional variables aside from the audio format to account for.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most of the DTS soundtracks out there actually use the half-bitrate version. It's still higher than DD resolution, but less than DTS' full capability. At full resolution, DTS uses 1.5 kb/sec, and very few DTS discs have been issued at the full bitrate. Most of what you hear is the half-bitrate version.


I seem to find that when there is a choice I like the DTS a track a little better. However, I'm not convince that either one is potentially better. So far as I know no one has ever produced a disc where the varibles were controlled in a way that an unambiguous DD vs DTS comparison can be made.

Actually, there have been some good comparison discs that meet these criteria. Sir Terrence has mentioned that the Lethal Weapon director's cut series and Twister were endoded simultaneously from the same master feed, and the DD track got encoded with no dialog normalization offset. So in essence, on these DVDs the DD and DTS soundtracks are identical in their source and preparation, and about as close to isolating the format variable as you can get without access to professional equipment. These discs also allow the user to switch the audio track on the fly, so the DTS and DD tracks can be compared in real time.

In my listenings, the DTS soundtrack on these discs has a slightly more open sound, with more depth on musical cues. But, in general the DD tracks fare surprisingly well in direct comparisons, considering how much compression that format requires.


I've also read that it may not be possible to actually make such a disc because some of the "variables" can't be equalized. Most specificly, DD uses a sort of gain riding algorithm that constantly adjusts the center channel to make dialog more audible against the background of other sounds, whereas DTS does not do this. If this is true (I'm just writing hearsay) then maybe a 4 channel (no center) comparisson could be done.

What you're referring to is the dialog normalization offset, which is generally set to -4 db. If you want a more valid comparison, just bump up the volume on the DD track by 4 db. However, that normalization level will vary from disc to disc. In those DVDs that I mentioned previously, the dialog normalization was switched off, and this occurs in other cases as well.

GMichael
07-05-2005, 11:32 AM
DTS is better to me. Not that DD is all that bad. But if it has DTS then I'm there.

Lexmark3200
07-05-2005, 12:49 PM
DTS is better to me. Not that DD is all that bad. But if it has DTS then I'm there.


Simply put, Michael, I completely agree. :)

GMichael
07-05-2005, 01:13 PM
Simply put, Michael, I completely agree. :)

That's me alright. Simple. But I make it work for me.

sam9
07-05-2005, 01:46 PM
To me the biggest disapointment with regard to DTS is that it did not catch on for multichannel music. I've got a few examples and I cannot percieve that they are inferior to DVD-A or SACD in any way. DTS worked on existting hardware -- had it been successful in that regard there would have been no need for SACD or DVD-A players. Of course this may have something to do with what happened.

Woochifer
07-05-2005, 02:36 PM
To me the biggest disapointment with regard to DTS is that it did not catch on for multichannel music. I've got a few examples and I cannot percieve that they are inferior to DVD-A or SACD in any way. DTS worked on existting hardware -- had it been successful in that regard there would have been no need for SACD or DVD-A players. Of course this may have something to do with what happened.

DTS never caught on as a multichannel music format because the recording industry only licensed a few titles to DTS Entertainment for 5.1 production (at that time, DVD-A and SACD still had not hit the market); and audiophiles never embraced it because 1) a lot of them are forevermore two-channel adherents that will never embrace multichannel ever; and 2) DTS' status as a compressed format, which creates the perception that it is inferior to uncompressed formats such as DVD-A and SACD. For my listening, DTS music is impressively close to uncompressed PCM, but DTS music discs were always nothing more than a stopgap measure to get 5.1 music discs into the market while the DVD-A format was gearing up for its debut (most of the early DTS music discs have already been re-released as DVD-As, and DTS Entertainment's new releases all include DVD-A tracks to go along with the DTS or DTS 96/24 tracks).

For all intents and purposes, DTS 96/24 is purportedly indistinguishable from the master, and at the same level as SACD and DVD-A. DTS 96/24 has the added benefit of being backwards compatible with existing DTS decoders. Unfortunately, the focus has been on the format war between SACD and DVD-A, so DTS 96/24 has largely been ignored.

Multichannel music could still eventually see the light of day once Blu-ray and HD-DVD come out, because both of those formats will have DD-Plus and DTS-HD on board as the mandatory formats. DD-Plus and DTS-HD are both backwards compatible with existing DD and DTS decoders, and they include a lossless mode that allows for full resolution playback.

MCF
07-08-2005, 07:18 AM
So if a disc has the option of Dolby Digital or DTS, is all you have to do is select DTS on the disc setup menu...or do you also have to make a menu change on your reciever (in my case a Harman Kardon AVR 635)? I never really picked DTS so my reciever automatically witches to Dolby Digital when watching movies.....

Sir Terrence the Terrible
07-08-2005, 07:22 AM
So if a disc has the option of Dolby Digital or DTS, is all you have to do is select DTS on the disc setup menu...or do you also have to make a menu change on your reciever (in my case a Harman Kardon AVR 635)? I never really picked DTS so my reciever automatically witches to Dolby Digital when watching movies.....

You have to enable the Dts option on your DVD player, not your receiver. Your reciever should detect any bit stream that comes in once the DVD player is Dts enabled.