Seassssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

[oddeoowphil38]

Hello people this is my very first post here in the DIY section. Suppose someone was thinking about buliding his own speaker. But, the kits available do not really give him what he wants. So, lets say he wants to use a 7" SEAS Magnesium Driver as the mid and a Vifa Tweeter. Then, he decides to go with a cabinet already built such as those over at Partsexpress.com or something similiar. How would he then be able to construct his crossover network say using at least a 3rd order or 18db/octave X-over on both the mid and the tweeter. Furthermore, he wants to keep the nominal impedence at no lower than 6 ohms and with a minimum 87 to 88 db sensitivity. I have been told that most aluminum drivers have some sort of ringing associated with them so my X-over design would have to adress this problem as well as maintain proper phase coherency. Also, the cabinets would have the port(s) on the front all with a nice veneer finish. Anybody here have any ideas on how I could achieve such a project? I am not very good at working with wood but I have (2) former installers of mine whom would be more than happy to help me. However, they both work so much and one goes to ITT Tech that makes it almost impossible for them to find the time to help me out. So, this is why I was hoping to find a pre-built cabinet to achieve my goals. I will also need a center channel made with a MTM design using exactly the same brand drivers and exactly the same size. If all goes well I may build two more standmounts speakers and use them to make a complete 5.1 set-up. Hence, I already have a sub. Finally, money is a BIG issue so I need to do this as inexpensively as possible. If not, then I may as well just buy aftermarkets and be done with it. My performance reference would be to build a standmount speaker with better performance than the Paradigm Studio 20's and the cc-470 respectively. This will be no easy task. The Studio 20's cost at least $750 new and another $600 for the cc-470. No need to worry about the rears yet. I do not want to spend much over $1,300 dollars for the (2) fronts and the center. Ok people lets get some ideas. I found on some site that the Vifa Ring Tweeters were about $60 each or $180 total ---one each for the fronts and one for the center. Likewise, the 7" SEAS magnesium drivers are around $160 each or $640----one each for the fronts and two for the center. So, this leaves me with about $480 to buy the cabinets, crossover components, and etc. I may have to finsh the cabinets later down the road or just paint them such as glossy black. This may save some money. The focus is on performance not looks. There is also the concern for the baffles and grilles. Not sure what they would cost but hopefully not too much. Ok people what ideas do you have???
Phil

[alexperl]

No problem, you can pic any drivers you whant(From drivers at madisound) after that go to http://www.madisound.com/leap.html
And they they can Design and build your crossover fot you..
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To place an order for a Leap design, Madisound they need to know the following:

What drivers are you using? They must be Madisound stock items.
What are your box volumes, or do you wish us to determine them for you?
Are the drivers surface mounted, or routed into the cabinet for a flush mount?
What slopes (6dB, 12dB, 18dB, 24dB) would you like us to design for, or would you prefer we choose?
What quality of inductors will you use? We will model using the DCR of the coils.

[kexodusc]

oddeoowphil38:

Beating the Studio 20's isn't too hard, but I think you'd be better off to go with a proven and popular DIY design that you can buy in kit form than to just dive right into one, especially with the kind of components you're talking about buying.
Madisound and Parts Express have a lot of great kits.
I replaced my Studio 40's and 20's with the EFE Ar.com DIY and haven't looked back...it's a different sound, but a step better overall IMO, especially for acoustic music.
The Dayton BR-1 kit at Parts Express is only $140 or so a pair for shielded versions, comes with everything you need, and IMO is better than the Mini Monitors (not as good as the Studio 20's but for $140 how can you complain?)

I'd really advise against building an MTM center channel, escpecially if you sit within 30 degrees of axis of the sweet spot postition, MTM's are the Home Theater trend these days for placement, but are really a horrible speaker to place horizontally if you sit off axis. Build a 5th speaker for best results.

[alexperl]

If you need the speakers for movies and you will connect it to a reciever you may consider go for a AR.COM Speaker kit : http://www.madisound.com/ar_com.html
I had build a pair and it is much much better then B&W 602 s3.
I anjoy them very much they are great!!!! :D
They sold for AR.COM kit with cabinets:
$340.00/pair
AR.COM kit without cabinets:
$175.00/pair

[oddeoowphil38]

Thanks Kex I will be sure to check them out. In the mean time I have a question for you. I found some finished cabinets over at partsexpress.com for $72.24 each. The dimensions are 14"X8.5"X12.5"(HWD) and weigh 19 lbs. each. They are made out of 3/4" MDF and are finished with real wood veneer. I especially like the beech veneer myself. Now going with your advice with respect to the center channel issue you brought to my attention three of these would cost me $216.72 plus some S&H. Now for the drivers I went to Madisound and found exactly what I am looking for. I would like to use the 1" Vifa Ring Dome Tweeters which cost $68.50 each for a total of $205.50 plus S&H. Then I want to use the 7" SEAS Magnesium Mids costing $156.65 each and a total of $469.95 plus S&H. Therefore, the cabinets and the drivers total $892.17 plus S&H. How much more would some good crossovers be??? I guess they will have to be custom ordered and I prefer them to have at least a 2nd order or 12 db/octave roll-off.. The internal volume for the cabinet is .54 cubic ft not counting driver displacements. Partsexpress has some 2-way's for $19.95 each but not sure if these would actually work??? I would like to use some decent components but dont have to have the best. I also would like to keep everything at no lower than 6ohms nominally. Besides the crossovers will there be anything else I would need??? I was thinking I may need to buy new baffles but not sure. They are supposed to be interchangeable. I think I can keep this project under $1,000 the way it is looking. I would not mind paying a little bit more if need be. Do you believe this set-up would out do three Paradigm Studio 20's???? Later on, I may add another set to complete 5.1.

[oddeoowphil38]

Thanks for all the info. Man I love the sound of the B&W 602s3. So you are saying these kits are better??? That is a big shoe to fill. Tell me more about the kit being better sounding.

[oddeoowphil38]

oddeoowphil38:

Beating the Studio 20's isn't too hard, but I think you'd be better off to go with a proven and popular DIY design that you can buy in kit form than to just dive right into one, especially with the kind of components you're talking about buying.
Madisound and Parts Express have a lot of great kits.
I replaced my Studio 40's and 20's with the EFE Ar.com DIY and haven't looked back...it's a different sound, but a step better overall IMO, especially for acoustic music.
The Dayton BR-1 kit at Parts Express is only $140 or so a pair for shielded versions, comes with everything you need, and IMO is better than the Mini Monitors (not as good as the Studio 20's but for $140 how can you complain?)

I'd really advise against building an MTM center channel, escpecially if you sit within 30 degrees of axis of the sweet spot postition, MTM's are the Home Theater trend these days for placement, but are really a horrible speaker to place horizontally if you sit off axis. Build a 5th speaker for best results.
Hey kex checked out some of your reccomendations. The AR.com EFE package looks really good. I may just take the plunge when I get my money together. How are these compared to the Studio 20's??? The specs look promising and 8 ohms would be a big help since I own a yammie receiver. Now i have some questions about the BR-1's. The listed frequency respone is given as 43-18k but within what +-db??? Also the seinsitivity is quite low at 85 db---will need a lot of power to get some sound out of them right??? Will my yammie RX-V650 be enough?? I could not find an impedence stat either---is it 8ohms nominally??? What concerns me the most is a mention of "assembling the crossover". I have no soldering skills whatsoever. I may can get a buddy of mine to do that much for me. Where do you mount the crossover inside the cabinets??? I have always been curious about that. Is the crossover glues down or screwed???? Anyways, sorry for all my questions but am still learning. Thanks once agai9n for all your help.

[alexperl]

Thanks for all the info. Man I love the sound of the B&W 602s3. So you are saying these kits are better??? That is a big shoe to fill. Tell me more about the kit being better sounding.
The AR.COM Speakers are better in hights the speakers more open.
The B&W 602 s3 has more bass BUT the bass that comes from AR speakers more PUNCHED, and of course the mids are KILLING in AR.COM speakers.
When i had polk audio monitor 5 speakers i listened to electronic music and pop but now i am listening to Jazz, Classics this is another direction!!!
The Jazz is so much fan now!!
I like to feal Killing midrange from the speakers with my bady!!! when the guitar is playing.
The voices so real!
I like this speakers so much! I will build 3 more for home sinema, and i am living in Isreal!
I have to pay 60$ for shipping and i do not thinking twice to order it.
I can not imagine to watch a movie with such setup!!
Here is a link to AR.COM Reviews : http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/main-speaker/diy/PRD_125043_1594crx.aspx

[kexodusc]

Thanks Kex I will be sure to check them out. In the mean time I have a question for you. I found some finished cabinets over at partsexpress.com for $72.24 each. The dimensions are 14"X8.5"X12.5"(HWD) and weigh 19 lbs. each. They are made out of 3/4" MDF and are finished with real wood veneer. I especially like the beech veneer myself. Now going with your advice with respect to the center channel issue you brought to my attention three of these would cost me $216.72 plus some S&H. Now for the drivers I went to Madisound and found exactly what I am looking for. I would like to use the 1" Vifa Ring Dome Tweeters which cost $68.50 each for a total of $205.50 plus S&H. Then I want to use the 7" SEAS Magnesium Mids costing $156.65 each and a total of $469.95 plus S&H. Therefore, the cabinets and the drivers total $892.17 plus S&H. How much more would some good crossovers be??? I guess they will have to be custom ordered and I prefer them to have at least a 2nd order or 12 db/octave roll-off.. The internal volume for the cabinet is .54 cubic ft not counting driver displacements. Partsexpress has some 2-way's for $19.95 each but not sure if these would actually work??? I would like to use some decent components but dont have to have the best. I also would like to keep everything at no lower than 6ohms nominally. Besides the crossovers will there be anything else I would need??? I was thinking I may need to buy new baffles but not sure. They are supposed to be interchangeable. I think I can keep this project under $1,000 the way it is looking. I would not mind paying a little bit more if need be. Do you believe this set-up would out do three Paradigm Studio 20's???? Later on, I may add another set to complete 5.1.

Phil, you can't just plop 2 drivers into a pre-made cabinet and buy a pre-made crossover and hope it all gels. It'd be like taking a wheel from a motorcycle, tractor, half-ton truck, and steamroller and hoping it worked.

If you want a kit with the Vifa ring radiator, check out some of the Parts Express kits...

[kexodusc]

Hey kex checked out some of your reccomendations. The AR.com EFE package looks really good. I may just take the plunge when I get my money together. How are these compared to the Studio 20's??? The specs look promising and 8 ohms would be a big help since I own a yammie receiver. Now i have some questions about the BR-1's. The listed frequency respone is given as 43-18k but within what +-db??? Also the seinsitivity is quite low at 85 db---will need a lot of power to get some sound out of them right??? Will my yammie RX-V650 be enough?? I could not find an impedence stat either---is it 8ohms nominally??? What concerns me the most is a mention of "assembling the crossover". I have no soldering skills whatsoever. I may can get a buddy of mine to do that much for me. Where do you mount the crossover inside the cabinets??? I have always been curious about that. Is the crossover glues down or screwed???? Anyways, sorry for all my questions but am still learning. Thanks once agai9n for all your help.
The BR-1's are +/- 2 dB. I wouldn't worry so much about that it'll be different in your room anyway. They'll play 20 KHz and above if you can even hear that high.
The sensitivity isn't great, but your receiver would be enough. They're 8 ohms. The instructions make the project very easy, and any pre-designed kit you decide to do would have hundreds of experienced diy-ers willing to help out.
I had the Studio 20 v.2. The Ar.com's weren't as bright, but and were clearer in the highs, had a much more realistic midrange, and were a bit faster and tighter in the bass, about as deep. It sounds a lot different, but all in all the presentation is more real to me and a bit better. My Studio 40's have much more bass, but I still don't like them any better.
The imaging and soundstage is the Ar.com's strength though, very airy, and large.
They're more money than the BR-1's though, but not really more difficult to build.

[oddeoowphil38]

Come on Kex give me more credit than that. I know you cant just drop drivers in a cabinet, use an aftermarket x-over, and expect it all to mesh properly. What I was asking if you think Madisound could design a crossover for me and how much do you think it would cost??? You have to admit the 1" Vifa Ring tweeters and 7" Seas Magnesium drivers would be very impressive especially in the pre-built cabinets at partsexpress. Could it be done???

[oddeoowphil38]

So you dont need to do any soldering with the BR1's? sounds like to me a very good deal as are the EFE ar.com's. Thanks for the info.

[kexodusc]

So you dont need to do any soldering with the BR1's? sounds like to me a very good deal as are the EFE ar.com's. Thanks for the info.

Whoah slow down there...yeah, you'll need to solder, but a good soldering iron can be had for under $30 and you can practice your technique with paper clips...soldering is actually pretty easy (well, the level of soldering skill you'll need for speaker building).

The BR-1's are the best cheap kit I can think of, depending on your goals there are others.
Look at these: http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/lytlefive/index.html
http://www.madisound.com/audaxhometheater.html
Do the drivers in them look familiar? They should, they're the Audax Aerogel and tweeters Ascend "modifies" in their speaker. The Audax HT kit at Madisound even has better specs ( +1.5dB from 100Hz to 20kHz) and response curve and are superior speakers (makes me wonder if Ascends proprietary modifications were cost cutting measures diminishing the performance). I built the small 2-ways, I'd say they're a bit better than the the Studio 20's in midrange and top end, but don't have near as much bass and can sound a bit thin as main speakers because of that. The Studio 20's have a wider soundstage and image just a bit better, but aren't quite as smooth or detailed at the top. For acoustic music the Studio's would fall short here, but for rock they're definitely a bit better. But these 2-ways were designed to be rear speakers keep in mind. This is a really popular HT kit in the DIY community, and I don't think it's a coincidence that a few years later Ascend came out with some very similar models.

I prefer the Ar.com DIY's all around, but an on-line acquaintance of mine has also built the Audax MTM mains and prefers them to the Ar.com so they're probably close either way.
The nice thing about the Ar.com's is they can be purchased with the crossovers already assembled using Madisound's quality components, and Ed Frias is always eager to help you with any questions you'd have. Not to mention the hundreds of people who've built them.

I have to warn you though, the DIY thing is quite addictive, you won't stop with the first design you build.

[kexodusc]

Come on Kex give me more credit than that. I know you cant just drop drivers in a cabinet, use an aftermarket x-over, and expect it all to mesh properly. What I was asking if you think Madisound could design a crossover for me and how much do you think it would cost??? You have to admit the 1" Vifa Ring tweeters and 7" Seas Magnesium drivers would be very impressive especially in the pre-built cabinets at partsexpress. Could it be done???
You'd have to call madisound, but I'm guessing it'd be handy to $20 in components each and another $20 or $30 for assembly, probably $75-$100 in total, and I'd probably use much higher grade components for those drivers...it could easily be double? Don't know, never used their service.
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't just use Madisound to computer simulate a crossover for two drivers in a box. I'm sure it would sound okay but there's a often a big difference between theory and practice.
I really think you'd be better off sticking with a pre-designed kit until you feel comfortable enough designing your own.

[oddeoowphil38]

yeah I think you are right Kex. The Ar.coms I think would be a safer way to go for me anyways. Even if they are close not necessarily better than the Studio 20's I would be happy. Heck at $340 a pair that includes the cabinets is really a bargain. As you mentioned the crossover is already assembled so it should not be all that difficult. If I have trouble a buddy of mine is a professional car audio installer and builds sub boxxes everyday. He also is very good with additional custom work such as in boats. I may not even need his help but at least he would help if need be. Thanks for the info Kex.

[alexperl]

Good luck with you first DIY Project.
Post some pics. :D

[kexodusc]

yeah I think you are right Kex. The Ar.coms I think would be a safer way to go for me anyways. Even if they are close not necessarily better than the Studio 20's I would be happy. Heck at $340 a pair that includes the cabinets is really a bargain. As you mentioned the crossover is already assembled so it should not be all that difficult. If I have trouble a buddy of mine is a professional car audio installer and builds sub boxxes everyday. He also is very good with additional custom work such as in boats. I may not even need his help but at least he would help if need be. Thanks for the info Kex.

I hate to shill for one product over another so hopefully you'll consider some other projects too. For the money they are a pretty good beginning DIY design and I'm sure you'd be happy. At $340 they are still better than most $800 bookshelf's I've heard, if not, at least very competitive. More than a few people have compared these directly with the Revel M20's citing them as sounding quite similar, noting they have less bass, but are more revealing with a deeper soundstage. Not bad company IMO. I like the Revel's alot more than the Studio 20's, but they also cost alot more. The Studio's to me leaned a bit more towards being boom and sizzle for my tastes, but I've owned real boom and sizzle speakers before so that's not really fair to the Studio line.

If your friend can build speaker cabinets for you out fo MDF (which is as easy as sub boxes, only smaller with smaller holes) you'll save at half of that cost and can build 4 speakers (not to mention save a ton on shipping). Hell, I'd bet there's people here that would build you unfinished MDF speaker boxes with all the cutouts so you'd just have to finish them yourself (nice vinyl at Parts Express for $15) for the cost of material and a bit of labor. Even with shipping you'd still save a ton this way.

[oddeoowphil38]

I hate to shill for one product over another so hopefully you'll consider some other projects too. For the money they are a pretty good beginning DIY design and I'm sure you'd be happy. At $340 they are still better than most $800 bookshelf's I've heard, if not, at least very competitive. More than a few people have compared these directly with the Revel M20's citing them as sounding quite similar, noting they have less bass, but are more revealing with a deeper soundstage. Not bad company IMO. I like the Revel's alot more than the Studio 20's, but they also cost alot more. The Studio's to me leaned a bit more towards being boom and sizzle for my tastes, but I've owned real boom and sizzle speakers before so that's not really fair to the Studio line.

If your friend can build speaker cabinets for you out fo MDF (which is as easy as sub boxes, only smaller with smaller holes) you'll save at half of that cost and can build 4 speakers (not to mention save a ton on shipping). Hell, I'd bet there's people here that would build you unfinished MDF speaker boxes with all the cutouts so you'd just have to finish them yourself (nice vinyl at Parts Express for $15) for the cost of material and a bit of labor. Even with shipping you'd still save a ton this way.
Kex I would have to agree with you BUT my buddy is going to school full-time and works part-time. He also is very busy with wedding plans and hid girlfriend is VERY VERY demanding. He just does not have the time. It is worth the price to me $340 plus S&H for them to be as good if not better than the Studio 20's. If the first set goes well then I will in time have another for the rear stage. As for my center, guess a single one will do fine but not sure if I can just get a "single" kit or not. There also seems to be some problems with the design of the X-over causing a dip at 3,000 Hz. Looks like that problem would have been resolved by now in that Madisound already made the changes in the preassembled X-over that arrives with the kits. Besides, shipping should not be over $30-40 more dollars.....at least I hope not anyways............LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you think a single Ar.com would work ok for the center channel? If so, I may just go ahead and order a set plus one individual if madisound allows. I have to get some money together first. My daughter is wanting school chlothes and some other things are coming up so my cash flow is uhhhh well umm strained. I think we all are feeling the pinch right now with the way the economy is. BTW, I am meeting with Ty at Tyler Acoustics Friday morning for a demo of the Freedom F-2's and whatever else he has at that time. Too bad, I cant do an A/B test with the Studio 20's but I know them well enough to get a decent idea of how they would compare. I will be sure to let everybody know what I observe. However, as you know I am not an expert but know a little about what I am talking about. If nothing else I try.......LOL!!!! Have a good one Kex.
Phil