How much improvement will be? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : How much improvement will be?



minye
06-22-2005, 08:57 AM
I have a Denon 3802 receiver with 110wpc. I plan to add power amps to its 6.1 pre-out. For instanse, maybe a B&K 150wpc for the fronts to listen to the music. Another 2 stereo amps with smaller power for the surrounds and centre, such as NAD or Rotel 60 wpc. I am sure for the front, I will get improvement and it is the way to the seperates for listening to music. But I wonder how much the overall improvement for the home theatre will be. Is it worth to do it?

I use a Denon receiver as a pro-pre. I also wonder, for those real Processors + Preamp which cost several grands, of course they are too expensive for the entry leveled guys like me, how much the improvement they work with power amps as a HT system than a 3802 pro-pre?

kexodusc
06-22-2005, 09:38 AM
I like the idea of using power amps with your receiver. My Yamaha RX-V1400 is rated 110 wpc as well, but I have 7 speakers running, and things can get a little strained very quickly. I have a large room as well, so I need a bit more power to reach the same loudness. I have 3 amps running of the receiver, this gives me all the headroom I'd ever want. I also find my amps improve the sound over my receiver's amp section.

I like the idea of using receivers as pre-pro's. I looked at a few Rotel, Arcam and Anthem processors, but to me they just don't offer enough improvement in sound quality to justify their costs, and certainly not in features than a good mid-level receiver. Sadly, I think this is one area that manufacturers are missing out on. I think mass production does offer lower-costs to the consumers and pre-pro's are not benefitting from this.

For digital sources, a receiver with quality digital processing should be pretty much as good as a pre-pro with a similar quality digital processing. I think receivers tend to take a few shortcuts at the analog end though, but that's just my opinion. This could come into play if you have a turntable or like the DAC in your cd player or DVD player better than the one in your receiver. For whatever reason, I find the pre-amp stage of your typical receiver not to be quite as good as a decent pre-amp or pre-pro's, so I assume a short cut is taken here somehow, but it's purely speculation on my part. Not that receivers sound bad here, but just that pre-amps sound a bit better to me.

If you're doubling up a stereo and an HT and want to go the seperates route, I'd recommend a good pre-pro if you can afford, but get ready to pony up the cash. Guess it depends on how much value you assign to that sound improvement. Personally, I think it can be made up upgrading other parts of the system, but sooner or later it will be the relatively weak link of your system and hold the other components back.

topspeed
06-22-2005, 12:27 PM
Unless you are listening to a lot of DVD-A or SACD, it's hard for me to imagine hearing a marked improvement in your surrounds utilizing separate amps. There just isn't enough information back there. Now, if you have a large room like Kex, or have speakers that are difficult to drive, I can certainly see the wisdom in your approach. My suggestion would be to get the 2 channel amp for the mains first and then just see what happens. If you find your Yammie is straining, get some more amps.

One of the advantages of most newer pre-pro's is that they upgradeable. The Halo C2 can be plugged into your computer to receive updates. That's pretty damn cool. Pre-pro's will also have a lot more balanced inputs and outputs, if that's important to you. I'm with Kex in that I'm sure receiver's are cutting corners in the preamp section somewhere, they cut everywhere else so why stop here? The question becomes how important is that to you? How critically are you listening? For me, in HT mode I don't really care.

2 channel OTOH, is whole 'nother ball game ;).

drseid
06-22-2005, 12:54 PM
I see from your equipment list that you are using a Klipsch sub/sat system with your receiver... If this is correct, then I am not sure using a separate power amp will provide any noticeable improvement. Your speakers are already pretty efficient, and should not be too much trouble for your current receiver to drive, IMO.

If you have different/new speakers that are either super-revealing, and/or less efficient, then that is the time to invest in the separate power amp. Right now I would just enjoy what you have...

---Dave

EdwardGein
06-22-2005, 02:06 PM
I have my Denon 3801 (I've heard the 3802 is even more powerful) in a normal sized living room and believe me it produces more than enough power and volume and I love it. Unless your room is a banquet hall I can't imagine why you would need more power to this.

nightflier
06-22-2005, 02:27 PM
I see from your equipment list that you are using a Klipsch sub/sat system with your receiver... If this is correct, then I am not sure using a separate power amp will provide any noticeable improvement. Your speakers are already pretty efficient, and should not be too much trouble for your current receiver to drive, IMO.

If you have different/new speakers that are either super-revealing, and/or less efficient, then that is the time to invest in the separate power amp. Right now I would just enjoy what you have...

---Dave

I'm not too familiar with the power rating of the Denon, but I would guess that if the front speakers would have their own 2-channel amp, it would improve stereo music reproduction anyhow, even with Klipsch's vaunted efficiency. Part of this will be because the amp will infuse it's own character into the system. I also believe that the seperate amp will do a much better job of producing the deep low frequencies than the receiver. Now for movies, the setting of the front speakers (Large or Small), will also come into play.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that with SACD, and I presume DVD-A, the 5.1 channels are recorded with the expectation that each channel has equal output. While this is not necessarily the case with movie soundtracks, surround sound music may strain that 110W that the Denon is rated at, particularly at high volumes. Adding a 2-channel amp will not even this out, but may alleviate power requirements enough to help the receiver deliver adequate power to the other channels.

That said, adding an amp and making the Denon strictly a preamp, does make the receiver's power go unused. I have a very capable 120W stereo amp that is being used as a preamp with a larger amp - all that power is just going unused. I suppose that is why I keep thinking of my setup as "temporary" even though it's unlikely I'll get around to changing things back. Bummer. Maybe Minye should see if s/he can try out an amp in the system before committing to keep it. Maybe a reseller/retailer with a good return policy?

drseid
06-23-2005, 01:41 AM
I'm not too familiar with the power rating of the Denon, but I would guess that if the front speakers would have their own 2-channel amp, it would improve stereo music reproduction anyhow, even with Klipsch's vaunted efficiency. Part of this will be because the amp will infuse it's own character into the system. I also believe that the seperate amp will do a much better job of producing the deep low frequencies than the receiver. Now for movies, the setting of the front speakers (Large or Small), will also come into play.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that with SACD, and I presume DVD-A, the 5.1 channels are recorded with the expectation that each channel has equal output. While this is not necessarily the case with movie soundtracks, surround sound music may strain that 110W that the Denon is rated at, particularly at high volumes. Adding a 2-channel amp will not even this out, but may alleviate power requirements enough to help the receiver deliver adequate power to the other channels.

That said, adding an amp and making the Denon strictly a preamp, does make the receiver's power go unused. I have a very capable 120W stereo amp that is being used as a preamp with a larger amp - all that power is just going unused. I suppose that is why I keep thinking of my setup as "temporary" even though it's unlikely I'll get around to changing things back. Bummer. Maybe Minye should see if s/he can try out an amp in the system before committing to keep it. Maybe a reseller/retailer with a good return policy?

Well first of all, "after further review" let me correct my previous statement about it being a sub/sat system... After doing some quick research on the web, the Klipsch KSF 10.5s are floorstanders that get down to 36HZ... My apologies to all for the error.

That said, they are *very* efficient at 95db sensitivity into 8 ohms... As such, they are an even easier load to drive than I thought. That Denon receiver could drive them to deafening levels before getting anywhere near to running out of gas for both movie and multi-channel music formats.

I suppose a possible inexpensive experiment for 2 channel use would be to add a Sonic Impact T-Amp for use with 2 channel listening (and just use the receiver's amp section for multi-channel use)... Its a large room, but even the 10-15 watts the T-amp puts out when used with 95 db efficiency speakers should be plenty for all but the loudest of Rock music. I paid a whopping $29.95 shipped for the one in my office at work... If anything, it is a very inexpensive way to find out if a separate amp would make a difference detail-wise.

---Dave

minye
06-23-2005, 06:09 AM
Sorry for the late reponse. Dave is quite right. My KSF 10.5 is very efficient. My living room is not that big like Kex's(actually narrow but long 20'x12'). Even my old 60wpc Denon receiver 1601 can drive the speaker pretty loud.

So my Klipsch is not a good speaker for music, right? I have a pair of Rotel RC/RB 870 Pre/power amp 60wpc. I hooked them up to the 10.5. I didn't feel very much improvement from the seperates. I just feel the power is more solid. Volume knob is just turned to 20%, the loudness is already 50+% of my denon receiver. And using amp and front mains, I lose the strong bass which comes from the 12'' powered sub while going through Denon receiver. Nightflier had suggested to put my sub negtive between the AMP and KSF10.5 main. I don't know what to do while watch movie, switching back and fouth?

It seems that I need to invest on a pair of main speakers before I step on to the way to seperates...

kfalls
06-24-2005, 04:54 AM
I have a Denon AVR-3300 (105Wx5) in a home theater system with Legacy Focus, Legacy Silver Screen center and T&A P-30 3-way rears. Instead of going with a seperate amp for the main speakers I bi-amped the Focus' 3-12"/ch woofers with a Yamaha M65 170Wx2 amp. The Denon has no problem driving the five channels and the Yamaha provides better control and more power for bass. The speaker efficiency for the Legacy's are similar to the Klipsch' (94db/w). I could have used the Yamaha for the main channels, but I would rather have identical amps so the 5 mid/high channels sound the same instead of having two Yamaha channels and Denon center up front. I'm not trying to start anything, but different amps, sound different.