I hereby quit !!

[Florian]

Over the past years/month as a moderator and user I have seen many systems, some good, some very good, most bad and I find it harder and harder everyday to commit myself to moderate/write in an audio gallery/forum that is not about high-end but about hifi. Of course hifi should have a place in society, but i look for forums which were meant to be for people to share experiences so the ultimate in music reproduction could be obtained for all who are interested.

However, during the past couple of months, I have only helped out other people while I was anxiously waiting for some input of equal level, but I noticed a vast increase in entry level systems that should not be thrown around with High End systems. Since there is no ending in these kind of discussions (300$ bookshelv vs. 20K fullrange). I hereby resign as a moderator and member because i simply cant stand it anymore.

I know i was definetly not always neutral or nice, but a lot depends on each other and this is stressing me endlessly. Members that have nothing better to do than envy people with high price tag systems will bring this forum down. The GOAL should not be to find the biggest deal on the net! The GOAL should be to find the ultimate in music reproduction to ones best ability.

-Flo

PS: There are many nice people on this forum, and i am not generalising here!

[N. Abstentia]

High end systems are nice, but the people who own them only represent maybe 10% of the buying public..of which .01% of them come here.

You've got more money invested in just your turntable than lots of people have in their whole systems!

[bjornb17]

that sucks florian. I hope its not because of people like me who are still with their first sound system.

[cam]

Well, since you are quiting, get lost and don't come back you high end audio snob. Actually, sorry to hear about your situation. Sounds like you have had an inner emotional tug of war for sometime now. Do me just one favour before you go, dean martin has set up a main event topic in the steal cage and everybody has been antissapating a battle between you and rga. Just don't use any racial slurs or profanity and give us some good old brawlin entertainment.

[PAT.P]

Florian Im sorry you fill this way.Some of us have family ,kids ,mortgage and cant afford a system like you .We use this forum for input and advice .I loved your picks and your system .In future I would like to own some high end gear like yours .I really love this site and if because you fill $$$$ vs the people is a priority thats your choice.Pat.P

[Peter Duminy]

Sorry to see you leave feeling this way. Not an easy job at the best of times either I would think.

[T BOMB25]

Now Florian i have only been on here a couple of days i only have question for you now i know you have a system that costs at least 50,000us are you the kind of guy who wouldnt consider a great system that costs 5000us as high end even it out performs a system that costs 20,000us system please answer this you like you are very knowlegeble i would like to know this before you quit because if you think like that than you are a snob not an audiophile but moneyphile so can you give me and answer?

[jasmit]

I can't say that I blame you. If you're not having fun, what's the point? By the way, having been twice a resident of Bavaria and a visitor many times since, I must say it is one of my favorite places on the planet. Viel Gluck und Auf Wiedersehen.

[Peter_Klim]

Now Florian i have only been on here a couple of days i only have question for you now i know you have a system that costs at least 50,000us are you the kind of guy who wouldnt consider a great system that costs 5000us as high end even it out performs a system that costs 20,000us system please answer this you like you are very knowlegeble i would like to know this before you quit because if you think like that than you are a snob not an audiophile but moneyphile so can you give me and answer?

And I've been here for years and can tell you that I think I know what you think and if that's what you think then you are correct.

[RGA]

The thing is Flo of all the people on this forum while we have argued i can relate a little more to you than some other people -- ignoring the equipment for the time being -- I understand what an up hill battle it is to discuss with people who have not "EXPERIENCED" what you have heard the SAME way you experienced it. In other words I get what it is like to hear something that in one's opinion compekltely destrys everything they have ever heard by such a margin that it would be like the World Series Boston Red Sox playing a 5 year old little girls team (and the last place 5 year old little girl's team).

So you come onto a forum and you want to tell everyone that holy crap I've been listening for 15 years to all this stuff and it's all a pile of crap what you've been told by the press and marketers and here is the "panacea" of music reproduction that actually sounds "right" --- never of course thinking that people will look at you as some sort of liar shill or every other name in the book. So I get your "passion" for your equipment and in fact I'm probably the ONLY person on this entire board who does becuase you and i may be the only people who like our systems to such a degree that we want to tell everyone about it. We may disagree on the "system" itself but it's no different than me saying Schindler's List is the best American film and some other guy arguing for Citizen Kane - The film that gives you the ultimate life changing cathartic experience is the one you're probably going to think is best.

What I came to realize is that all it's going to lead to is endless arguments. many people will believe that because they can only afford $300.00 on speakers that anyone who spends more wasted their money - or $3000.00 etc. Is it surprising to you?

There are people who believe that $500.00 turntable set-up is better than the best CD player in the world - that any speaker that is not a horn is crap, that without tubes you lose. There are others who think if you don't spend $50,000 you have nothing worthwhile to listen to.

There is a problem with using hi-fi and high-end. I have made the mistake several times of using these terms and i fear I learned them from the magazines -- they mean next to nothing. I tried to illustrate thet hi-fi is a technically very well made solid product in engineering terms but often a mecahnical and unengaging presentation that to me isn;t musical. High End I tried to explain as possibly being just as good or better in engineering terms or possibly even worse but sound organic rich and never fatiguing dry and uninvolving.

Even with that one gets into even bigger trouble because you're perceived as insulting everyone's decisions - ask anyone here about me and Paradigm --- I've attempted to avoid getting into flames with these people - because I've realised that chances are if they love those speakers they just do not hear it the same way I do -- I've had roughly 5 Paradigm owners take me up on going to Soundhounds and listening to the speakers I've suggested all five agree with me 4 have since bought them and the other is exploring several other options because if a no name can do that to the conglomorate maybe other no names can also do it.

You are not going to convince people you are right no one is all of the time and not everyone is going to like what you propose they should. I don't see this forum as a problem -- if a person has $300.00 to spend then don;t try and get them to spend $50,000.00. You suggest what you think is good for $300.00 -- if you don't think there is anything good at $300.00 don't answer the thread

I take a tremendous beating on this forum from practically everyone and I have said several times that's it I'm going to get off here -- but the satisfaction of seeing a person who simply auditioned a suggestion i made and know they are way happier now than they were with the usual stuff keeps me here to get blasted called names.

I have learned largely to word myself slightly differently -- I use Woochifer as a guage in fact about what i've said -- I figure if he is not blasting me -- then I've successfuly worded my post in a way that gets my opinion across without coming across as a snot...Since April I figure for the msot part I'm wording myself a bit better. Unfortunately they closed the last thread so I could not reply to him.

Good Luck with wherever you go.

[Peter_Klim]

The thing is Flo of all the people on this forum while we have argued i can relate a little more to you than some other people -- ignoring the equipment for the time being -- I understand what an up hill battle it is to discuss with people who have not "EXPERIENCED" what you have heard the SAME way you experienced it. In other words I get what it is like to hear something that in one's opinion compekltely destrys everything they have ever heard by such a margin that it would be like the World Series Boston Red Sox playing a 5 year old little girls team (and the last place 5 year old little girl's team).

So you come onto a forum and you want to tell everyone that holy crap I've been listening for 15 years to all this stuff and it's all a pile of crap what you've been told by the press and marketers and here is the "panacea" of music reproduction that actually sounds "right" --- never of course thinking that people will look at you as some sort of liar shill or every other name in the book. So I get your "passion" for your equipment and in fact I'm probably the ONLY person on this entire board who does becuase you and i may be the only people who like our systems to such a degree that we want to tell everyone about it. We may disagree on the "system" itself but it's no different than me saying Schindler's List is the best American film and some other guy arguing for Citizen Kane - The film that gives you the ultimate life changing cathartic experience is the one you're probably going to think is best.

What I came to realize is that all it's going to lead to is endless arguments. many people will believe that because they can only afford $300.00 on speakers that anyone who spends more wasted their money - or $3000.00 etc. Is it surprising to you?

There are people who believe that $500.00 turntable set-up is better than the best CD player in the world - that any speaker that is not a horn is crap, that without tubes you lose. There are others who think if you don't spend $50,000 you have nothing worthwhile to listen to.

There is a problem with using hi-fi and high-end. I have made the mistake several times of using these terms and i fear I learned them from the magazines -- they mean next to nothing. I tried to illustrate thet hi-fi is a technically very well made solid product in engineering terms but often a mecahnical and unengaging presentation that to me isn;t musical. High End I tried to explain as possibly being just as good or better in engineering terms or possibly even worse but sound organic rich and never fatiguing dry and uninvolving.

Even with that one gets into even bigger trouble because you're perceived as insulting everyone's decisions - ask anyone here about me and Paradigm --- I've attempted to avoid getting into flames with these people - because I've realised that chances are if they love those speakers they just do not hear it the same way I do -- I've had roughly 5 Paradigm owners take me up on going to Soundhounds and listening to the speakers I've suggested all five agree with me 4 have since bought them and the other is exploring several other options because if a no name can do that to the conglomorate maybe other no names can also do it.

You are not going to convince people you are right no one is all of the time and not everyone is going to like what you propose they should. I don't see this forum as a problem -- if a person has $300.00 to spend then don;t try and get them to spend $50,000.00. You suggest what you think is good for $300.00 -- if you don't think there is anything good at $300.00 don't answer the thread

I take a tremendous beating on this forum from practically everyone and I have said several times that's it I'm going to get off here -- but the satisfaction of seeing a person who simply auditioned a suggestion i made and know they are way happier now than they were with the usual stuff keeps me here to get blasted called names.

I have learned largely to word myself slightly differently -- I use Woochifer as a guage in fact about what i've said -- I figure if he is not blasting me -- then I've successfuly worded my post in a way that gets my opinion across without coming across as a snot...Since April I figure for the msot part I'm wording myself a bit better. Unfortunately they closed the last thread so I could not reply to him.

Good Luck with wherever you go.

I never viewed you as a snob...

[mixadude]

Wow, I just got here, but I definately feel your pain.

My dad always sez, "Everybody's got a monkey on their back". He was a music teacher during my childhood, fwiw.

I'm a professional soundman since 1977, when I was in my mid 20s. Sometimes it's hard to relate, but when and if I finally can, sometimes it's worth it. And other times it's a long dry spell.

I don't have endless resources to committ to my personal playback system in my dwelling, nor do I have a space to modify to my liking (I recently lost my house). Does that mean I can't make some pretty impressive noise here? Absolutely not. I'm also a lifelong artist and take great artistic license with my equipment. But I always appreciate seeing where somebody has taken the time, money, and commitment necessary to achive absolute nirvana, and i guess that's why I'm lurking around here now.

All that being said, do what you gotta do. Sorry you might not be around.

Gene

[Woochifer]

Over the past years/month as a moderator and user I have seen many systems, some good, some very good, most bad and I find it harder and harder everyday to commit myself to moderate/write in an audio gallery/forum that is not about high-end but about hifi. Of course hifi should have a place in society, but i look for forums which were meant to be for people to share experiences so the ultimate in music reproduction could be obtained for all who are interested.

Hmmm, I never saw the sign on the terms of service that dictated that the AR forums would be all about high end audio only. Shame on us for discussing "hifi" in your rarified presence.

If you want to look for a different forum and discussion than what gets tossed around on this board, then by all means find your place and go there. I hope you're happier wherever you wind up. These kinds of self-serving "I quit" threads are nothing more than parting shots intended to tell others on a particular board that they're not worthy.


However, during the past couple of months, I have only helped out other people while I was anxiously waiting for some input of equal level, but I noticed a vast increase in entry level systems that should not be thrown around with High End systems.

Input of equal level? You mean, your input is more important, valid, and useful just because you own a "high end" system?


Since there is no ending in these kind of discussions (300$ bookshelv vs. 20K fullrange). I hereby resign as a moderator and member because i simply cant stand it anymore.

No ending? I've not seen ANY discussions on this board comparing $300 bookshelfs with $20k full range speakers, yet you're telling us that you see "no ending in these kinds of discussions." If you're "resigning" over something as imaginary/rhetorical/fabricated as that, then this quitter thread is even more pointless than the others that I've seen over the years.


I know i was definetly not always neutral or nice, but a lot depends on each other and this is stressing me endlessly. Members that have nothing better to do than envy people with high price tag systems will bring this forum down. The GOAL should not be to find the biggest deal on the net! The GOAL should be to find the ultimate in music reproduction to ones best ability.

And other members have nothing better to do than to expect everybody else to either spend the equivalent of a second mortgage on an audio system, or to fawn at their feet and hang on their every word just because of the equipment that they own.

If this is "stressing [you] endlessly" then you should take a step back and just enjoy the damn system that spent so much effort building and bragging about. Something tells me that more listening and less typing will help your mindset considerably. Good luck.

[cam]

Hmmm, I never saw the sign on the terms of service that dictated that the AR forums would be all about high end audio only. Shame on us for discussing "hifi" in your rarified presence.

If you want to look for a different forum and discussion than what gets tossed around on this board, then by all means find your place and go there. I hope you're happier wherever you wind up. These kinds of self-serving "I quit" threads are nothing more than parting shots intended to tell others on a particular board that they're not worthy.



Input of equal level? You mean, your input is more important, valid, and useful just because you own a "high end" system?



No ending? I've not seen ANY discussions on this board comparing $300 bookshelfs with $20k full range speakers, yet you're telling us that you see "no ending in these kinds of discussions." If you're "resigning" over something as imaginary/rhetorical/fabricated as that, then this quitter thread is even more pointless than the others that I've seen over the years.



And other members have nothing better to do than to expect everybody else to either spend the equivalent of a second mortgage on an audio system, or to fawn at their feet and hang on their every word just because of the equipment that they own.

If this is "stressing [you] endlessly" then you should take a step back and just enjoy the damn system that spent so much effort building and bragging about. Something tells me that more listening and less typing will help your mindset considerably. Good luck.
Well said Wooch. My mind thinks just like yours but I just can't put it to type like you can. A very intelligent reply on your part.

[polkymon]

Hate to see a fellow hi-ender :confused: go. Still much for me to learn, Best of luck to you.



:(

Main System:
Prell 6000 preamp w/conditioner
Fluffernutter amp xtra-crunchy
Wilson Phillips bi-polar 3-way
Schnell ! Schnell ! surrounds
Hunch backs
Pastrami sub
Turntable: Layzsuzin w/Gerbilzonassid drive
Stands: Vintage purple Mel Krates by Kraml

Cables:
Speaker: Golden Gate 1 guage $3300/in.(great stuff but bad for imaging. Maybe it's because I could only afford 1/4 inch each?)
Interconnects: ( Dunno what that is.)

:D

[RGA]

Hate to see a fellow hi-ender :confused: go. Still much for me to learn, Best of luck to you.



:(

Main System:
Prell 6000 preamp w/conditioner
Fluffernutter amp xtra-crunchy
Wilson Phillips bi-polar 3-way
Schnell ! Schnell ! surrounds
Hunch backs
Pastrami sub
Turntable: Layzsuzin w/Gerbilzonassid drive
Stands: Vintage purple Mel Krates by Kraml

Cables:
Speaker: Golden Gate 1 guage $3300/in.(great stuff but bad for imaging. Maybe it's because I could only afford 1/4 inch each?)
Interconnects: ( Dunno what that is.)

:D


All i can say is that you have an awesome system man and i am very very envious :D

[mixadude]

Oh well, sorry... I been around long enough to tell ya not to let the door knob hit ya where the good lord split ya...

That time hasn't necessarilly been here, but I been mixin fer Bonnie, Stevie, Lobos, Tierra, Caniballs, TBS, CBS, Marshal Crenshaw, and others ...

I've also had my hand in extremely high end studios. You are deluding yourself.

Good luck... Gene

[T BOMB25]

Hey Peter Klim! he didnt answer me so i guess we right.Woochifer very well said,Cam ruthless but honest i like it Mix that was funny let us real audiophiles have good objective discussions.Boy some real suckups on here i wont say any names but you know who you are im a little suprised about someone im still unimpressed ! ! !

[Florian]

High end systems are nice, but the people who own them only represent maybe 10% of the buying public..of which .01% of them come here.

You've got more money invested in just your turntable than lots of people have in their whole systems!
And that is fine, i started with a Onkyo TX-DS555 and some Infinity RS3's. I have no issue with starter systems.

[Florian]

that sucks florian. I hope its not because of people like me who are still with their first sound system.
Ofcourse not, i started too. Its a fun time :-)

[Florian]

Well, since you are quiting, get lost and don't come back you high end audio snob. Actually, sorry to hear about your situation. Sounds like you have had an inner emotional tug of war for sometime now. Do me just one favour before you go, dean martin has set up a main event topic in the steal cage and everybody has been antissapating a battle between you and rga. Just don't use any racial slurs or profanity and give us some good old brawlin entertainment.
High End Audio snob, i wouldnt have to be if people like you understood that a 300$ bookshelf speaker will never even scratch a Infinity Epsilon or Apogee. But no, people like you cant take comments from High End peopl, because you feel insulted and start arguments over money.

[Florian]

Florian Im sorry you fill this way.Some of us have family ,kids ,mortgage and cant afford a system like you .We use this forum for input and advice .I loved your picks and your system .In future I would like to own some high end gear like yours .I really love this site and if because you fill $$$$ vs the people is a priority thats your choice.Pat.P
I dont put $$$$ vs. people. But the people will little money dont accept any tips from the people who have the cash to test out the systems for them. I had over 9 Receivers and can tell ya all about them, but people just dont listen....

[Florian]

Sorry to see you leave feeling this way. Not an easy job at the best of times either I would think.
It is not an job at all, and people like PeterK, Itch etc... dont make it easier.

[Florian]

Now Florian i have only been on here a couple of days i only have question for you now i know you have a system that costs at least 50,000us are you the kind of guy who wouldnt consider a great system that costs 5000us as high end even it out performs a system that costs 20,000us system please answer this you like you are very knowlegeble i would like to know this before you quit because if you think like that than you are a snob not an audiophile but moneyphile so can you give me and answer?
Well first off a 5000$ system can be High End if done right, but you will never build a system for 5K and then for 20K and beat it. Its not gonna happen. A Nautilus 804 etc.. will never touch a system around a Wilson Watt Puppy. A 5K systemw ill never ever touch a Kharma 3.1 or 3.2...... it just wont happen.

I dont care about the price tag, i want the ULTIMATE and i will SAVE UP untill i get it.

[Florian]

I can't say that I blame you. If you're not having fun, what's the point? By the way, having been twice a resident of Bavaria and a visitor many times since, I must say it is one of my favorite places on the planet. Viel Gluck und Auf Wiedersehen.
Right you are. And if your ever close, just stop by and will have some good beers and music.

[Florian]

And I've been here for years and can tell you that I think I know what you think and if that's what you think then you are correct.
Actually you dont, and you never will because you are not there yet.

[Florian]

The thing is Flo of all the people on this forum while we have argued i can relate a little more to you than some other people -- ignoring the equipment for the time being -- I understand what an up hill battle it is to discuss with people who have not "EXPERIENCED" what you have heard the SAME way you experienced it. In other words I get what it is like to hear something that in one's opinion compekltely destrys everything they have ever heard by such a margin that it would be like the World Series Boston Red Sox playing a 5 year old little girls team (and the last place 5 year old little girl's team).

So you come onto a forum and you want to tell everyone that holy crap I've been listening for 15 years to all this stuff and it's all a pile of crap what you've been told by the press and marketers and here is the "panacea" of music reproduction that actually sounds "right" --- never of course thinking that people will look at you as some sort of liar shill or every other name in the book. So I get your "passion" for your equipment and in fact I'm probably the ONLY person on this entire board who does becuase you and i may be the only people who like our systems to such a degree that we want to tell everyone about it. We may disagree on the "system" itself but it's no different than me saying Schindler's List is the best American film and some other guy arguing for Citizen Kane - The film that gives you the ultimate life changing cathartic experience is the one you're probably going to think is best.

What I came to realize is that all it's going to lead to is endless arguments. many people will believe that because they can only afford $300.00 on speakers that anyone who spends more wasted their money - or $3000.00 etc. Is it surprising to you?

There are people who believe that $500.00 turntable set-up is better than the best CD player in the world - that any speaker that is not a horn is crap, that without tubes you lose. There are others who think if you don't spend $50,000 you have nothing worthwhile to listen to.

There is a problem with using hi-fi and high-end. I have made the mistake several times of using these terms and i fear I learned them from the magazines -- they mean next to nothing. I tried to illustrate thet hi-fi is a technically very well made solid product in engineering terms but often a mecahnical and unengaging presentation that to me isn;t musical. High End I tried to explain as possibly being just as good or better in engineering terms or possibly even worse but sound organic rich and never fatiguing dry and uninvolving.

Even with that one gets into even bigger trouble because you're perceived as insulting everyone's decisions - ask anyone here about me and Paradigm --- I've attempted to avoid getting into flames with these people - because I've realised that chances are if they love those speakers they just do not hear it the same way I do -- I've had roughly 5 Paradigm owners take me up on going to Soundhounds and listening to the speakers I've suggested all five agree with me 4 have since bought them and the other is exploring several other options because if a no name can do that to the conglomorate maybe other no names can also do it.

You are not going to convince people you are right no one is all of the time and not everyone is going to like what you propose they should. I don't see this forum as a problem -- if a person has $300.00 to spend then don;t try and get them to spend $50,000.00. You suggest what you think is good for $300.00 -- if you don't think there is anything good at $300.00 don't answer the thread

I take a tremendous beating on this forum from practically everyone and I have said several times that's it I'm going to get off here -- but the satisfaction of seeing a person who simply auditioned a suggestion i made and know they are way happier now than they were with the usual stuff keeps me here to get blasted called names.

I have learned largely to word myself slightly differently -- I use Woochifer as a guage in fact about what i've said -- I figure if he is not blasting me -- then I've successfuly worded my post in a way that gets my opinion across without coming across as a snot...Since April I figure for the msot part I'm wording myself a bit better. Unfortunately they closed the last thread so I could not reply to him.

Good Luck with wherever you go.
Thanks RGA, you actually understood my point exactly and i know how you and i feel about out audio systems and we know exactly what the differences are between HIFI and High End.

Thanks

[Florian]

Wow, I just got here, but I definately feel your pain.

My dad always sez, "Everybody's got a monkey on their back". He was a music teacher during my childhood, fwiw.

I'm a professional soundman since 1977, when I was in my mid 20s. Sometimes it's hard to relate, but when and if I finally can, sometimes it's worth it. And other times it's a long dry spell.

I don't have endless resources to committ to my personal playback system in my dwelling, nor do I have a space to modify to my liking (I recently lost my house). Does that mean I can't make some pretty impressive noise here? Absolutely not. I'm also a lifelong artist and take great artistic license with my equipment. But I always appreciate seeing where somebody has taken the time, money, and commitment necessary to achive absolute nirvana, and i guess that's why I'm lurking around here now.

All that being said, do what you gotta do. Sorry you might not be around.

Gene
The difference is that YOU have the knowledge. You wouldnt take a 300$ bookshelf speaker and say its only a little bit worse than a Watt Puppy or a Apogee Duetta. You know the difference and you can apreciate the difference between HIFI and High End

[Florian]

Hmmm, I never saw the sign on the terms of service that dictated that the AR forums would be all about high end audio only. Shame on us for discussing "hifi" in your rarified presence.

If you want to look for a different forum and discussion than what gets tossed around on this board, then by all means find your place and go there. I hope you're happier wherever you wind up. These kinds of self-serving "I quit" threads are nothing more than parting shots intended to tell others on a particular board that they're not worthy.



Input of equal level? You mean, your input is more important, valid, and useful just because you own a "high end" system?



No ending? I've not seen ANY discussions on this board comparing $300 bookshelfs with $20k full range speakers, yet you're telling us that you see "no ending in these kinds of discussions." If you're "resigning" over something as imaginary/rhetorical/fabricated as that, then this quitter thread is even more pointless than the others that I've seen over the years.



And other members have nothing better to do than to expect everybody else to either spend the equivalent of a second mortgage on an audio system, or to fawn at their feet and hang on their every word just because of the equipment that they own.

If this is "stressing [you] endlessly" then you should take a step back and just enjoy the damn system that spent so much effort building and bragging about. Something tells me that more listening and less typing will help your mindset considerably. Good luck.
I dont brag about the system, i just post pictures because i want to SHARE my experiences. But all i get in the gallery is some ****head comments and everyone considers ot bragging because they cant afford it.

[Florian]

Hey Peter Klim! he didnt answer me so i guess we right.Woochifer very well said,Cam ruthless but honest i like it Mix that was funny let us real audiophiles have good objective discussions.Boy some real suckups on here i wont say any names but you know who you are im a little suprised about someone im still unimpressed ! ! !
Sad that you have no idea what your missing. And you just started....

[Geoffcin]

I take a tremendous beating on this forum from practically everyone .

Good Luck with wherever you go.

You deserve what you get. And you give a lot more than you get, that's for sure.

[Geoffcin]

Sad that you have no idea what your missing. And you just started....

Once you realize that the only way people can pull your chain is if you let them.

Audioreview.com has the best forums on the web. It's the reason I stay. If you want to persue your hobby someplace else that's fine. But be assured that your going to run into the same problems you have here somewhere else, as most of what it bothering you is self inflicted.

Good luck!

[Florian]

Audioreview has the BIGGEST community. I am in another forum for a long time, and there are 0 problems, 0 fights and only constructive arguments.

-Flo

PS: But enough of that, i have said what i wanted to say and a few people actually got it.

[Feanor]

You've been a lot of fun for me and many others I dare say, but if you're not having fun yourself, then I guess it's time to bail.

You have a great system, (or systems), and I enjoy looking at them very much. I'll never own a system like that. I'm one of those guys whose going to have to do with a $5000 kit -- and not because I can't appreciate a $20k system or a $500k one for that matter.

And I grant that the, "What's the best 5.1 surround system for under $200?" questions are boring, but some of those people will expand their horizons with encouragement.

Pardon a few negative comments about yourself, because basically you're a good guy:

First, your technical knowledge does not begin to approach that of various members. These people can speak solid science and fact whereas you speak opinion most often. Even I can do that much!;)

Second, don't delude yourself that you're anywhere near the top of high-end, (I'm not saying you do). If you want to see real :cool: high-end, check out mikel's equipment and listening room ...

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/663.html
Thirdly, you haven't learned yet -- as RGA has begun to -- that there are other valid opinions and perspectives besides your own.

Anyway, maybe we'll see you again somewhere. Enjoy.

[markw]

Flo, yuo seemed like a nice guy with lota of bucks to throw at a fairly expensive system. I (we?) don't begrudge you that pleasure but, please understand, not everyone is in a financial position to be able to do that.

But, everyone is in a position to eke the most pleasure out of what they can afford.

It's that group that needs the most here. After all, with enough money, many problems can be made to disappear. It's geting the most on a tight budget that is more difficult. You'll find more mid priced systems here than the "high end" systems here and, like it ot not, that's a fact of life in general.

Sometimes, ya gotta drive that Mercedes next to a Hyundai in this world.

[shokhead]

$Bye$

[Florian]

Its funny how everyone says i have tons of dough to spend. I don't. I have this as my primary hobby for 5 years and just upgraded and got lucky. I am not at the top of High End eventough the speakers are. Thats why i am working on the rest and i post many pictures and systems. But the general feedback is simply idiotic. Look at the comments "$Bye$" or "we the real audiophiles". Those are a joke and naming a B&W 800 in the same breath as a Scintilla, Watt Puppy or ML Prodigy is a joke too. I have enjoyed many people on this forum and their systems, but the simple fact is that most of them have no clue abut this hobby, have never heard or had a High End system and will argue you to the death about the 300$ Paradigm speakers.

-Flo

[kexodusc]

So, when you say you quit, the effective date and time is what, exactly?

[gonefishin]

Hi Florian :)



You sure do sound frustrated. Perhaps just stepping down and taking a new look at audio sites is required.

I've found that different audio sites offer me different things at different times. So, I just accept that and "use" the various sites for the purpose that they fullfill the best.

These are my personal reasons for using various audio sites and may change at any time as I see fit. My view of a site may change from time to time as my needs, wants or views change.

My suggestion would be not to view a site as you would like to see it. But view each site for what it is...and take advantage of those parts of each site that fit with your needs or personality.

dan

[GMichael]

I have only been on this forum for a couple of months, but your advice has helped durring that time. I've notivced that you haven't been posting as much lately. When I saw your post yesterday with pictures of your new set up I thought that maybe you had just been busy. But I guess you just don't enjoy some of the conversations you have been in here.

I can see why you would want to find another forum, one that only or mostly has people like yourself with very hi end systems so that you can receive advice from someone instead of always giving it. In many cases, I see that advice here is met with sarcasm and critisism.

But I hope that you will miss us and throw in a few words of wisdom from time to time. Maybe all you need is a break.

Remember, there will always be people who can't take advice. Even when they ask for it. That's everywhere. I've done it myself.

Take care, good luck, and don't forget to visit.

Michael

[Mark111867]

Florian-

If you are unhappy on this board, then you are doing yourself a service by leaving. Life is to short to tolerate things that make you stressed out. Apparently you have a very impressive system. If you can swing it financially, I say go for it. I have thought to myself several times that if I had the means, I would go for broke. Kids, car payments, and a mortgage kind of got in the way (no, I'm not being sarcastic). Also, keep in mind that it is folks like you, RGA, Woochifer, Markw & some other knowlegable people on this board that help people like me learn more about audio. Best of luck.

-Mark

[Florian]

Thanks you guys, its great to see some folk that have enjoyed my help. I am sure that i will help my friends on this forum when they have questions but you guys have my mail adress so dont hesitate to ask.

-Flo

[noddin0ff]

The GOAL should be to find the ultimate in music reproduction to ones best ability.

-Flo
With a final statement that rings as true as this one, the rest of what you said sounds pretty childish. Quit if you feel it’s the right thing for you, but don't go and give a petulant "I hereby quit!!!" and then blame humanity for your woes. Have some pride, man.

The only thing that would bring down the forum is not budget envy, it would be people with knowledge and experience deciding to leave and keeping their experiences to themselves.

[Florian]

With a final statement that rings as true as this one, the rest of what you said sounds pretty childish. Quit if you feel it’s the right thing for you, but don't go and give a petulant "I hereby quit!!!" and then blame humanity for your woes. Have some pride, man.

The only thing that would bring down the forum is not budget envy, it would be people with knowledge and experience deciding to leave and keeping their experiences to themselves.
Knowledge is not what some peope look for. They loose themselves in endless searches for a 500$ best bang of the buck speaker !! The people that responded and apreciate the help i have given are a true statment of what this site is for. But sites like this get damaged by folks that have nothing better to do than attack high end people with their ever growing envy. I have tons of pride and propebly some arrogance too. But this comes with all high end folk. Ask the people with Kharma's, Apogee's, Soundlabs, Genesis etc... and you will see that they dont even talk to hifi, best bang for the buck people at all. They care about music and the best reproduction of it. I just saw happen and tried to open a view eyes, but it failed misserably because they all look at it with envy and disinterest.

-Flo

[noddin0ff]

I have tons of pride and propebly some arrogance too. But this comes with all high end folk.
Um, Earth to Flo...this comes with all folk.

(including those with a $XXX budget and looking for help finding the best bang for their buck)

[Shiden Kai]

One of the easier emotions to experience in a hobby you are nose deep in is burn-out, and from this outsiders perspective, you are knocking at the door. When a recreational hobby reaches a point of apparent unhealthy stress, it is time to take a few steps back. I’ve found many ways to gain perspective back into life, be it through a simple walk through the local park or time away from the hobby.

Remember, these people who own the products you speak of were once like most of the others. We all start somewhere, and most of us have to pay our dues. The “High End” crowd you speak of is typically composed of two types. First is the type that loves music, and can afford some of the better equipment constructed to give the best experience possible. The other type can fund high-end easily, but unfortunately care very little about the music. Their concern is obtaining high dollar, name brand approved audiophile gear and lavishing in the feel of owning something high tone. Rarely do these people attend live concerts and rarely are these people active musicians, and that is about as close to the music as you can get. Do not make the mistake of making that mistake.

As my post count indicates, I am quite new to these boards. However, in that very short time your character has struck me as overwhelmingly confident. Remember, you are voluntarily participating in a board that attracts people of all sort, including bargain hunters and those who are less educated and experience than yourself. Yes, you will encounter different opinions, experiences, those of envy, etc.., and while it can be frustrating, its life!

Reading through your posts, in the back of my mind I kept thinking; “Clearly this is a forum with a majority that he feels are not up to his level, perhaps its time to pursue a place with a higher concentration of those who have the same type of cash invested in their systems”.

In the end, I feel it is you who have so much to learn, but a strong chip on the shoulder will prevent any growth. Posting self-inspired “I quit” posts are for those who truly do feel quite highly of themselves, perhaps too much so. Typically its in bad taste and does you no justice whatsoever, this situation being of no exclusion! Ironically, the majority who create these ‘last words’ stick around longer than most of the others.

Once again I will repeat a point I wish to drive home, and that is gaining perspective.

[cam]

High End Audio snob, i wouldnt have to be if people like you understood that a 300$ bookshelf speaker will never even scratch a Infinity Epsilon or Apogee. But no, people like you cant take comments from High End peopl, because you feel insulted and start arguments over money.
You must be getting me mixed up with someone else, because I would for go a $300 bookshelf or even a $1000 bookshelf for a $1000 floorstander any day of the week. I have heard some $300 bookshelf speakers that sound as good as they can for the money. But for me, whatever speaker line I may purchase in the future, It will definately be a floorstander. And also from the prices out there I doubt I would ever have to spend more then $1500. And that would be high end for me.

[E-Stat]

Of course hifi should have a place in society, but i look for forums which were meant to be for people to share experiences so the ultimate in music reproduction could be obtained for all who are interested.

This is not necessarily the best forum to achieve that goal. There's nothing wrong with your objective nor the more down-to-earth focus found here. I lurked here for a while marvelling at how much time certain folks invested discussing that which they believe is of no value - cables. I began posting to share my positive experience in that regard and was asked to help moderate.

I guess I get enough of the "high end fix" since I have known JWC and HP of The Absolute Sound for over twenty five years. Visiting Sea Cliff always leaves me amazed at what is possible. And ultimately, lighter of pocket with that exposure! So which amp should we listen to first? The VTL Wotans, Edge Signature Monoblocks, ASL Hurricanes, or the Halcros? Too many good choices.

On the other hand, I would like to think that I can assist others with the goal of making a modest system sound better. While I have been thoroughly enjoying my newish Sound Labs U-1 speakers (and have some Harmonic Tech Magic power cords on order for the VTL amps), I spend as much time fiddling wth and enjoying my vintage Advent based system in the garage. My passion for enjoying music can be satisfied on different levels.

rw

[Florian]

You both make some good points. I am definetly into music over equipment but do feel that good equipment is necessary to further increase the musical pleasure. Ill properbly stick around but in a much smaller consistency in the areas i know. Planar Systems and more exotic audio.

-Flo

[E-Stat]

I take a tremendous beating on this forum from practically everyone ...
I hope you haven't considered any of my responses as "beating up on you", but you'll have to admit that chances are very high that AN will somehow work it's way into the discussion with your posts. :)

rw

[dean_martin]

I'm sorry you feel that way. One of the main reasons I visit this site is the variety of personalities here. I first encountered your posts in the gallery and I was impressed with what your were putting together. I was also a little surprised. The systems you were putting together were a little more expensive than those of the average poster here. But again it's the variety of personalities here that make this place interesting for me. There's quite a bit of wit bantered about here in addition to the very practical information.

When I first saw your pics in the gallery, my gut reaction was that you could share some of your experiences with the really best gear but that you probably would not get much in return. I guess that's how it turned out for you with a couple of caveats. I think in some cases you've mistaken attacks for poor attempts at light-hearted wit or humor. I'll admit that my main event post in the steel cage is not as funny as I originally thought. If it had been funny and friendly to you and RGA then maybe one of you would have responded.

On the other hand, I think you may need to find that line between passion and obsession. It may be the langauge barrier that prevents you from being a little more light-hearted, but I think it's probably your obsessiveness. One day when you have time, pick up a copy of Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises. If you've already read it, then read it again. I think it provides a very accurate description of the differences between obsession and passion - obsessed by the girl and passionate for bullfighting. The interesting thing is that the passionate or the afficiando likes to commune with others having the same passion, but they rarely discuss that thing they are passionate about. But when they do, it's a sense of like-minded euphoria with very little disagreement. If that's what you're looking for, then great! But I'm not sure it is.

I do see your point though. I had a system for almost 12 years and never gave much thought to its quality. When my amp started to go bad I decided to get a new system. I found this site and received some excellent advice about current products. But I took the wrong approach. I got what I thought would be the best system for the least amount of money without going to circuit city or bestbuy. I'm getting ready to replace my 2channel stereo system. I'm still a minimalist at heart, but I can be a minimalist without being cheap. My plans are to get a pair of low watt tube monoblocks, a tube preamp, a tube cd player (or maybe a seperate dac - no tubes), a better turntable/cartridge combo, and a pair of relatively high-effiency bookshelf speakers that are extended as possible in both frequency ranges. This won't be "cheap" for me, but based on my listening experiences it will suit my tastes, sound great to me and will be consistent with my "minimalist" worldview. I just hope my pursuit remains a passion rather than becoming an obsession.

[Geoffcin]

I'm getting ready to replace my 2channel stereo system. I'm still a minimalist at heart, but I can be a minimalist without being cheap. My plans are to get a pair of low watt tube monoblocks, a tube preamp, a tube cd player (or maybe a seperate dac - no tubes), a better turntable/cartridge combo, and a pair of relatively high-effiency bookshelf speakers that are extended as possible in both frequency ranges. This won't be "cheap" for me, but based on my listening experiences it will suit my tastes, sound great to me and will be consistent with my "minimalist" worldview. I just hope my pursuit remains a passion rather than becoming an obsession.

What components have you been considering?

While I ocassionally shake the neighborhood, I'm really a minimalist at heart. I am about to make a jump myself and put some valves into the system. My CD player seems to be getting a bit long in the tooth, and there's a lot better tech out now with upsampling CD players.

[Florian]

Check out the Unison Researc unico CD then ;-)

[dean_martin]

What components have you been considering?

While I ocassionally shake the neighborhood, I'm really a minimalist at heart. I am about to make a jump myself and put some valves into the system. My CD player seems to be getting a bit long in the tooth, and there's a lot better tech out now with upsampling CD players.

I have a small study where I do all my real 2 channel listening. I'm 99.9% sure on the speakers and monoblocks - Soliloquy 5.0 and Quicksilver Mini Monos. Although the 5.0s have been replaced, they're still readily available new, at least for now. It gets a little more complicated with the preamp because I need a phono section. There are some interesting tube line stage preamps out there and some interesting seperate phono preamps (tube and ss) which might work well together.

I'm about 50/50 on the digital front end - either the Jolida 100A tube cd player or something like the Benchmark Media Dac. This might change if I get a chance to listen to something like a Naim or Simaudio. But before I take the plunge, I do want to listen to something with upsampling ability.

[Florian]

I had a Jolida JD3000b preamp which was quite good for the money. A bit lacking in the bass department tough. The Unison CD has a 192khz 24bit upsampler with tube output :-)

[Geoffcin]

I have a small study where I do all my real 2 channel listening. I'm 99.9% sure on the speakers and monoblocks - Soliloquy 5.0 and Quicksilver Mini Monos. Although the 5.0s have been replaced, they're still readily available new, at least for now. It gets a little more complicated with the preamp because I need a phono section. There are some interesting tube line stage preamps out there and some interesting seperate phono preamps (tube and ss) which might work well together.

I'm about 50/50 on the digital front end - either the Jolida 100A tube cd player or something like the Benchmark Media Dac. This might change if I get a chance to listen to something like a Naim or Simaudio. But before I take the plunge, I do want to listen to something with upsampling ability.

I seem to remember that happening a few years back? If not then I'm happy, we need more American speaker makers to stay in business.

I've heard of the Quicksilvers. They, along with Outlaw Audio have brought tubes to a price point that most people can reach. I don't even know if Outlaw has monblocks in this range, so Quicksilver might be the only game in town. Have you looked at the Bottlehead stuff? It's worth a look, if only for the sexy model they use!

[Geoffcin]

I had a Jolida JD3000b preamp which was quite good for the money. A bit lacking in the bass department tough. The Unison CD has a 192khz 24bit upsampler with tube output :-)

With the upsampling option. It's either this or the Shanling T100, a stunning looking player, but I'm not that keen on a top loader.

Oh, I see you've reconsidered on leaving us, smart move!

[Florian]

With the upsampling option. It's either this or the Shanling T100, a stunning looking player, but I'm not that keen on a top loader.

Oh, I see you've reconsidered on leaving us, smart move!
Well i do like to help people, i will just accept the fact that some people do not want to take my help. The Unison also has a better build quality and definetly has a more transparent and tube sound. Would be a great match with a solid state amp. The Shanlings are great too, but when i auditioned the 200 model i found it to be a little bid muddy in the midband.

-Flo

[PAT.P]

I dont put $$$$ vs. people. But the people will little money dont accept any tips from the people who have the cash to test out the systems for them. I had over 9 Receivers and can tell ya all about them, but people just dont listen....
Florian Some of the people here are just starting out work ,family,homeownership ect,ect.Im self -employed and my wife just got unemployed.We lost lots of money in the stock market 4 year ago when the market crash.We bought what we could afford in the housing market and her friends were buying brand new custom built house in the $500 thousand + .We still own our house and they lost everything.If somebody as a budget they should stick to it.You really think I could'nt buy nice equipment it was'nt my priority at the time. Your starting to make it sound your the Lord and we the peasant.Pat.P

[Florian]

Dear Pat,

as i have stated many times, it is not about the money. Small systems can be a lot of fun too but they have to be implemented right just with all systems. I am 22 yrs old and have worked for my hobby very hard since i was 15. I use to cut grass in 104F for my math teacher for my first NEC SW300 subwoofer. I know the value of money ! The thing i sometimes have a problem with is that people shudder at High End systems and dont try to learn from people who own these because its unrealistic for them. I have received a few bad comments which are clearly a issue about envy.

-Flo

[dean_martin]

I seem to remember that happening a few years back? If not then I'm happy, we need more American speaker makers to stay in business.

I've heard of the Quicksilvers. They, along with Outlaw Audio have brought tubes to a price point that most people can reach. I don't even know if Outlaw has monblocks in this range, so Quicksilver might be the only game in town. Have you looked at the Bottlehead stuff? It's worth a look, if only for the sexy model they use!

Soliloquy is still in business. Their new model line uses the same numbering system but has the "i" designation. However, the new 5.0i is actually smaller than the old 5.0 with less bass extension and is designed to be used with a sub. I think they were more closely affiliated with Cary when they were developing the old line and probably had tubes in mind during the design.

I HAVE spent a considerable amount of time at the bottlehead site - nice model! I also like the old school "minimalist" look of their products. I was thinking of going with a vinyl only system for now - putting as much into a new turntable as I can and using a phono preamp with volume control like the EAR 834P directly to the Quicksilver monoblocks. Then in phase 2, adding something like the Bottlehead Foreplay and new digital frontend.

The other path I've considered and haven't completely ruled out is a pair of Von Schweikert VR-1s, Pass Labs Aleph 30 amp, and a Cary tube preamp with headphone and phono. I would probably have to find one of the older Cary models like the SLP-88P or SLP-74P. Another consideration would be the VAC Auricle preamp which has a nice phono section but is not as expensive as the current Cary SLP-98P.

It's that digital frontend that is the most perplexing to me. I have all these cds that I don't listen to that much because the sound just doesn't hold my attention and can be irritating at times, but it's hard to believe that one would have to spend $2000 for decent cd sound when the basics of the technology have been around for so long.

I appreciate Flo's comments on the Italian gear. I've read his recommendations for the Pathos integrated. I think it would be great to hear a Unison or Pathos integrated driving some Italian speakers like Sonus Fabers with the Unison cd player, but where am I going to hear something like that? I'm doing some traveling later this summer and I plan to search out and listen to some of these brands.

[Florian]

Yes the Pathos Acoustics Classic one is a very nice component indeed and will match with the unison very much. I think that most new CD-players generally try to offer to many options like programming, CD, CDR, CDRW etc.. compatibility and dont focus on the basics. If you look at the Unison Research CD-Player for instance you will notice the great parts inside.

This unit uses 5 seperate power stages and has a 80 Watt transformer to feed the parts. The CD-ROM drive is from TEAC and uses a tube output stage. It does sound more warm when using the balanced outputs. Can be found relatively cheap for 2000$. Ofcourse this totally depends how much you want to spend. Another great little CD-Player i have owned is the Audio Analouge Paganini and the Rega Planet 2000 MKII. The CD drive from the Rega and AA are not very solid, but they sound great for the money.

http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/unicocd-07_22_12-03.jpg

[Geoffcin]

It's that digital frontend that is the most perplexing to me. I have all these cds that I don't listen to that much because the sound just doesn't hold my attention and can be irritating at times, but it's hard to believe that one would have to spend $2000 for decent cd sound when the basics of the technology have been around for so long.



Next to cables, digital is the most inscrutable thing for me to understand; It's just zeros and ones right?! Not really. DACs, op amps, caps, it all makes a difference. Makes my head spin sometimes.

[Florian]

Next to cables, digital is the most inscrutable thing for me to understand; It's just zeros and ones right?! Not really. DACs, op amps, caps, it all makes a difference. Makes my head spin sometimes.
You can also add little sand-bags inside the player to take away resonances from the chassy. This has worked well for my friend who uses a audiomeca Mephisto.

-Flo

[shokhead]

Dear Pat,

as i have stated many times, it is not about the money. Small systems can be a lot of fun too but they have to be implemented right just with all systems. I am 22 yrs old and have worked for my hobby very hard since i was 15. I use to cut grass in 104F for my math teacher for my first NEC SW300 subwoofer. I know the value of money ! The thing i sometimes have a problem with is that people shudder at High End systems and dont try to learn from people who own these because its unrealistic for them. I have received a few bad comments which are clearly a issue about envy.

-Flo

Gee,i was getting ready to tell say you kinda sound like an a$$ but now that i see your 22,that explains everything. I was cutting a 1/4 acre at 12,so. Hi end,mid priced or low end. They all do the same. Plug them end and enjoy. They all need to be tweeked,played with and upgraded. Some put wifes,kids and food and rent before this stuff. 22 will have a different order. I almost remember 22.

[JohnMichael]

You have acheived quite a system already in your life and I congratulate you. I would probably enjoy listening to such a system. It is not necessary for me to have that level of a system to enjoy music. I am sure the same music would make my foot tap, my body dance or bring tears to my eyes on either of our systems. I do enjoy reading information from folks such as yourself who own such systems. It is nice to dream. It is also nice to read about musical products in the affordable ranges. As you know we all had to start somewhere and one of the things I enjoy about this site is all the new mods and performance enhancing tricks to bring my system a little closer to the ideal. It sounds like you have a lot to offer this site but it also sounds like no ones' toys are as nice as mine so I am going home.

[Florian]

Well i am sorry i come across that way, it dont mean that. I will work on that, and i am sure we will get along.

-Flo

[dean_martin]

I had a Jolida JD3000b preamp which was quite good for the money. A bit lacking in the bass department tough. The Unison CD has a 192khz 24bit upsampler with tube output :-)

Yes, I remember the pictures of your Jolida preamp in the gallery. I immediately went to Jolida's website to check it out. Until then, I thought they just made budget-oriented integrateds and a cd player. It was equally surprising to see the Jolida pre matched with a Krell amp. What happened to that combo? I see in your equipment list that you've gone with a Krell preamp. Was it the bass deficiency that caused you to replace it?

I really must keep my cd player or dac expenses down to around $1000usd. I'm looking at a serious turntable upgrade right now and that's where my interest is. I was hoping you would catch the vinyl bug. I would love to see what kind of analog rig you would put together.

[Florian]

Yes, I remember the pictures of your Jolida preamp in the gallery. I immediately went to Jolida's website to check it out. Until then, I thought they just made budget-oriented integrateds and a cd player. It was equally surprising to see the Jolida pre matched with a Krell amp. What happened to that combo? I see in your equipment list that you've gone with a Krell preamp. Was it the bass deficiency that caused you to replace it?

I really must keep my cd player or dac expenses down to around $1000usd. I'm looking at a serious turntable upgrade right now and that's where my interest is. I was hoping you would catch the vinyl bug. I would love to see what kind of analog rig you would put together.
Well the jolida did indeed sound very good for the money. Smooth, lotsa details but always a tad to slow and muddy. I tried to use the Krell Poweramp to get the speed and detail in and it did work quite well. I was looking for more depth and details and thats when i bought the Krell KRC-2.... I have enjyed that combo a lot but i am missing the musicality and the correct tonal balance and have spottet the Sphinx equipment which is extremely good and very rare. I want to try to get that sweetness and decay in and thats why i chose the Unison CDP-

I will be bitten by the upgrade bug sooner or later, but i dont have the money right now to do it correctly. Also i have a lot of CD's and dont have any records.

-Flo

[PAT.P]

Dear Pat,

as i have stated many times, it is not about the money. Small systems can be a lot of fun too but they have to be implemented right just with all systems. I am 22 yrs old and have worked for my hobby very hard since i was 15. I use to cut grass in 104F for my math teacher for my first NEC SW300 subwoofer. I know the value of money ! The thing i sometimes have a problem with is that people shudder at High End systems and dont try to learn from people who own these because its unrealistic for them. I have received a few bad comments which are clearly a issue about envy.

-Flo
Flo I started working by the age 10 (paper route)bought my first car at 16 was a teenage dad ,a grandfather at 39. This site realy thought me alot and still learning.I do compare speakers at different shop.The ones I pick are the ones that got my attention to my ears.I wook at churches and I do listen to alot of different music here .There a 2500 pipes organ ,String concert,Opera ect. My ears are very fine to music ,was tested with a meter that is use in dog obedience that only the dog could respond too(had a headache for two days).I was very choosy and pick what felt was the best to my ears.I never audition amp or receiver .The info I received here on receiver made me buy a Yamaha to replace a Sony.I enjoy HT for music and movies and I know I will probably add more at a later time .My wife just paid off my credit card and car loan so I need to tighten my belt for know.Pat.P

[cam]

Dear Pat,

as i have stated many times, it is not about the money. Small systems can be a lot of fun too but they have to be implemented right just with all systems. I am 22 yrs old and have worked for my hobby very hard since i was 15. I use to cut grass in 104F for my math teacher for my first NEC SW300 subwoofer. I know the value of money ! The thing i sometimes have a problem with is that people shudder at High End systems and dont try to learn from people who own these because its unrealistic for them. I have received a few bad comments which are clearly a issue about envy.

-Flo
Now I understand. 22 years old. Oh ya, I remember those days, 12 years ago. You are dealing with people on this forum who are past those free wheeling days where feeding kids, paying the mortgage, and putting a good meal on the table are more important. When I was 22 I was more concerned with stuffing my car with bigger and better subs. I know exactley where your 22 year old mind is coming from. There will come a day, it happens to all of us whether you think it will or not, pose a question, what is the best for the least. At your immature age of 22, and I am not in no way slagging you, because I was an immature puke at 22 so I know, not that I am calling you a puke, but there will be a day where there will be a bigger importance to you then your home audio system. At 22 you will be saying, bull$hit. But when you are 32, things will be different. Unless you are an ugly bastard and not at all into women, you will be more concerned with paying the mortgage and what is the best bookshelf speaker I can get for $300. This forum is 95% ,what can I get on a small budget. If you do not want to help these people, then you don't belong here. But then again, as a moderator, you just have to keep the peace, giving your knowledge is optional. After saying what I have said, I would be a bad contributor to these forums when I was 22 because I would be totally frustrated with people who would say, what is the best and cheapest 8 inch sub for my car. Give me a break, for any car, 2 10 inch subs should be the minimum, but now I am 34, my answer would be different. I personally think that AR should screen the future moderators and make sure that the minimum age is 30. A moderator at 22 has a very narrow point of view. IMHO!

[bjornb17]

Now I understand. 22 years old. Oh ya, I remember those days, 12 years ago. You are dealing with people on this forum who are past those free wheeling days where feeding kids, paying the mortgage, and putting a good meal on the table are more important. When I was 22 I was more concerned with stuffing my car with bigger and better subs. I know exactley where your 22 year old mind is coming from. There will come a day, it happens to all of us whether you think it will or not, pose a question, what is the best for the least. At your immature age of 22, and I am not in no way slagging you, because I was an immature puke at 22 so I know, not that I am calling you a puke, but there will be a day where there will be a bigger importance to you then your home audio system. At 22 you will be saying, bull$hit. But when you are 32, things will be different. Unless you are an ugly bastard and not at all into women, you will be more concerned with paying the mortgage and what is the best bookshelf speaker I can get for $300. This forum is 95% ,what can I get on a small budget. If you do not want to help these people, then you don't belong here. But then again, as a moderator, you just have to keep the peace, giving your knowledge is optional. After saying what I have said, I would be a bad contributor to these forums when I was 22 because I would be totally frustrated with people who would say, what is the best and cheapest 8 inch sub for my car. Give me a break, for any car, 2 10 inch subs should be the minimum, but now I am 34, my answer would be different. I personally think that AR should screen the future moderators and make sure that the minimum age is 30. A moderator at 22 has a very narrow point of view. IMHO!

I think your view is very accurate.

I'm 20 now, and I always dream about how my home theater will look like someday. But, assuming i'll get married in a few years, a lot of that is probably going to change. So I am one of those ignorant young pukes :) But I'm trying my best to enjoy things now, because i see how my dad has very little time for hobbies, and i have all the time in the world.

[mixadude]

Wow, 22 huh? I'm impressed!

32? Try 52! Things change drastically.

When i was 24, I had already changed my profession from hifi to being a rocker (in a band) and then pro audio. I was the only guy in the hifi store I worked in to sell a set of Infinity Servo Stats that year one year (1973) when I was 20 ;)

I always tell ppl who ask... I came to be a mixer the regular way.. the band broke up, LOL.

Life's priorities change. So does your ability to hear! At least if you learn to listen young, you retain the skillset, even if the mechanical stuff starts to fail. Some ppl start hi end too late to ever know! BTW, earplugs aren't for wooses, they're for those with the wish to hear well for a long time.

Good luck dude, I'm thinkin there's more to learn here than hi end, stick around :D

[dave123456@mail.com]

Im 20 also, and have been into audio since i was 17 ( registed with AudioAsylum on December 5, 2002). It all started with some Kimber speaker wire, and later on $249.00 PSB Image 2b speakers. Since then its been a fun and educational experiance , and has become one of my favorite hobbies. My ear has also been trained pretty well- I now pay more attention to how everything sounds, from my car stereo to the tv in my living room to how people sound in different houses. Id say the biggest drawback to starting so young is budget and space issues. My room is currently a small 10x10 bedroom, which shares a rather large bed, a dresser and of course me. My funds, well lets just say im having some rough times. Sometimes I wonder if I should just wait till I move into a larger space,and untill I have my financial situation straightened out. On second thought nah, my system is still enjoyable and will only get better. Anyways, im glad to see there are others around the same age as me.

[Geoffcin]

When I was twenty two my major concern was partying and *****. I always had a decent sounding rig, but that was mostly to make noise, or cover it up! This changes as soon as house/wife/kids enter the picture so enjoy it while you can!

[Florian]

This thread turned out to be most helpfull for me and properbly for you guys too. I understand the reactions that i usually get now. I am sure i am a useful extension for audioreview and i can help you guys with budget decision too since i have had quite a few of them. I always thought you guys were like 16,18 or a little over 20 with some ocasional folk over that age. I thought you guys didint understand the difference between a B&W 602 and a Apogee Scintilla or Wilson Audio Alexandria etc.. i was wrong, you guys mostly have wife, kids, car payments etc... so spending 5K or more on a speaker is not really an option.

-Flo

[shokhead]

5K is more like the whole system. More then money,age, or room size,the biggest factor is WAF,hands down. Doesnt matter your age with that. LOL Now i understand some of the past problems, you diaper wearers. Its like us dads talking to the kids. Lets see,at 20 i was making $100 take home for 52 hours aweek and in an apartment with a friend so no sounds for me but for my car. Remember,6X9 Tri's. :D
Doping,party's and cards and concerts{you know,$8.50 for a ticket} filled my time.

[Florian]

5K is more like the whole system. More then money,age, or room size,the biggest factor is WAF,hands down. Doesnt matter your age with that. LOL Now i understand some of the past problems, you diaper wearers. Its like us dads talking to the kids. Lets see,at 20 i was making $100 take home for 52 hours aweek and in an apartment with a friend so no souns for me but for my car. Remember,6X9 Tri's. :D :D ... I suddenly feel so small and young !!! Eventough i am not small with 1.93m

[PAT.P]

This thread turned out to be most helpfull for me and properbly for you guys too. I understand the reactions that i usually get now. I am sure i am a useful extension for audioreview and i can help you guys with budget decision too since i have had quite a few of them. I always thought you guys were like 16,18 or a little over 20 with some ocasional folk over that age. I thought you guys didint understand the difference between a B&W 602 and a Apogee Scintilla or Wilson Audio Alexandria etc.. i was wrong, you guys mostly have wife, kids, car payments etc... so spending 5K or more on a speaker is not really an option.

-Flo
Flo Does this mean your staying if so great ,I see that know you understand there is all type of people and buget on this forum and this is what makes it interesting .There no bias and were all equal.In life we all learn.And who says you cant show a old dog a knew trick?Im learning and want to learn by the great advice that I get and receive here .Pat.P

[Florian]

Flo Does this mean your staying if so great ,I see that know you understand there is all type of people and buget on this forum and this is what makes it interesting .There no bias and were all equal.In life we all learn.And who says you cant show a old dog a knew trick?Im learning and want to learn by the great advice that I get and receive here .Pat.P
Yup i am staying. I understand now how our frustration became so large.

:-)

[bjornb17]

Yup i am staying. I understand now how our frustration became so large.

:-)

:) glad to hear

[PAT.P]

Flo Thats great ! One question when I restarted looking in speaker market alot of advice was to look for Frequency Response ,Room Sensitivity,Impedance, Crossover. Could you add your comment on this and also be honest with on this I could take it .My towers are the new Generation of Dahlquist speaker.They are QX9 30hz-20khz typical room/ In average room 92db@2.83V,1m .Nominal Impedance 6 ohms,Crossover Frequency 2.9khz.What would in the high-end audio speaker market rate this on the scale of one to ten.Like I said I could take it .Having a Ex-Wife ,and Czech inlaws on my 2 time around and me being French Im use to criticism.Pat.P

[GMichael]

I'm glad to hear (read) that you are staying. Can I hit you with a new question then? I am looking at the NHT ST4's as well as the mags. Have you hear these? If so, how do they compare. Luckily there is a dealer not far from here that has both. I will get there in the next few weeks. I have a huge billiards tournament next weekend so it will have to be at least two weeks before I can go listen. The NHT's seem to sound better on paper but paper sometimes lies.

Thanks
Mike

[Florian]

Flo Thats great ! One question when I restarted looking in speaker market alot of advice was to look for Frequency Response ,Room Sensitivity,Impedance, Crossover. Could you add your comment on this and also be honest with on this I could take it .My towers are the new Generation of Dahlquist speaker.They are QX9 30hz-20khz typical room/ In average room 92db@2.83V,1m .Nominal Impedance 6 ohms,Crossover Frequency 2.9khz.What would in the high-end audio speaker market rate this on the scale of one to ten.Like I said I could take it .Having a Ex-Wife ,and Czech inlaws on my 2 time around and me being French Im use to criticism.Pat.P
Well i have two stepmothers, so i understand :p

I dont know the Dahlquist personally, but from what i can see i think that 2.9khz is pretty critical as a crossover point. It is important (to me) that all drivers have the same sonic signature. This is important because a instrument has a large range and goes over all the drivers usually. Now every material has a different sonic signature and therefore the instrument will not sound correctly. This is espeically true for the B&W range.

Technical specifications dont tell the whole story unfortunalty. My speakers cross at 500 and 3Khz, but since they all have the same material and are very very close together there is no missing link or transition problems.

The 30Hz inroom response is garbage because it totally depends on your room. My Scintilla's if moved 7 feet from the wall only goes down to aprox.30Hz but when pushed back a little to 5.5ft they play flat down to 22Hz. Bass traps can help and setup of thirds. Becarefull about the whole bass ratings. I see many ratings from bookshelves down to 40Hz etc.. this will almost never be reached in a meaningfull way in a normal room.

Box resonances are also important and they can be minimized with good construction or tricks to cancel them out in the chassy. Pay good attention to the build quality, knock on the speaker a few times and see how well it is dampened. A speaker that i find exeptionally well build for the money are the DALI speakers and the VMPS speakers. B&W is quite good too, but you pay too much for the advertising and dealers in my opinion.

Back to the Dahli..the x-over point seems a bit critical and the 30Hz really depends on your room. Did you hear them yet?

[Florian]

I'm glad to hear (read) that you are staying. Can I hit you with a new question then? I am looking at the NHT ST4's as well as the mags. Have you hear these? If so, how do they compare. Luckily there is a dealer not far from here that has both. I will get there in the next few weeks. I have a huge billiards tournament next weekend so it will have to be at least two weeks before I can go listen. The NHT's seem to sound better on paper but paper sometimes lies.

Thanks
Mike
Sure you can hit me with a question :p

The 500$ NHT's are properbly a good speaker for the money. I did hear a few NHT's a while back and found their slender profile to be quite an advantage which makes them very transparent. As far as Maggies go, they seek a totally different musical character. The NHT's are definetly easier to place and not as critical to electronics as the Maggies are. If you want to really jam and crank the system up the NHT is better. If you listen to smaller jazz music, classical and soft rock than the Maggies will give you much more realism and truer tonality and larger soundfield. You need space behind them and a midly sweet tube amp ;-) You can trade the MMG's in once you like a pair of 12 or 1.6 ... as far as musical honesty goes i would say the maggies and if you like to jam and crank them up and dont really mind loosing a bit of tonality, and honestly and soundstage than the NHT is a great buy too. I am a bit biased since one will never know how much color speakers add thaks to the cabinet.

WAF might be a pain with the Maggies, but the MMG's are quite small.

:p

[PAT.P]

Flo I bought these Dahlquist QX9 after auditioning Paradigm Monitor 7,Energy C5 and Klipsch RF25.To my ears the Dahlquist sounded more real and clear on the lows.The onlything that I have done yet is to Bi-Wire them.Would this improved them?Just bought a Yamaha 3 weeks ago to replace a Sony .My system is on my first floor and floors are wood,the room is 26X16.They said in free field 90db@2.83,1m.What is a good crossover range for a speaker.Thanks Pat.P

[Florian]

The best crossover point is no crossover point or only one... [right RGA ;-)]
But we can make up for that by having crossover points in regions were our ear does not notice it much. For instance on the VMPS RM30 the crossover points are 166Hz and 7Khz. Which means that in the biggest part of the audiable range there is no crossover and all drivers are identical which gives you perfect transition. If you have a break in the 3KHz range and move from one driver to another you will not have a smooth transition. Now some speakers do this better than others, but it would be best to have a x-over at something below 500Hz and above 5Khz in order to prevent that.

-Flo


This is from http://www.transom.org/tools/editing_mixing/200402.voiceprocessing.html

the ear is especially sensitive to the range of frequencies produced by the human voice -- approximately 500hz to 5khz. So it's no surprise that audio equipment is designed to function most effortlessly in this same frequency range

[PAT.P]

Flo The next step up speakers from Dahlquist are the QX10 4ohms crossover 200hz-2.9.Would you rate this a better crossover point.Thanks again.Pat.P

[Florian]

Flo The next step up speakers from Dahlquist are the QX10 4ohms crossover 200hz-2.9.Would you rate this a better crossover point.Thanks again.Pat.P
Not really :-)

I would look for a higher x-over point. Something like 500Hz and 5khz if possible. If the one is a 2 way speaker and the other a 3way speaker, then it will properlby sound less stressed since it has a dedicated unit for the bass.

-Flo

[PAT.P]

Not really :-)
I would look for a higher x-over point. Something like 500Hz and 5khz if possible. If the one is a 2 way speaker and the other a 3way speaker, then it will properlby sound less stressed since it has a dedicated unit for the bass.

-Flo

Flo Do you Bi-Amp or Bi-wire ? Do you believe in it?Whats the best way on doing this ?Will I notice a improvement?Thanks Pat.P

[Florian]

Flo Do you Bi-Amp or Bi-wire ? Do you believe in it?Whats the best way on doing this ?Will I notice a improvement?Thanks Pat.P Well i do biwire and on my speaker it makes a huge difference. I think it depends entirely on speaker design. The best way would be to use cables with different characteristics (more bass or more height) and use it either on the mid/hi or bass input to achieve the sonic signature you want. Two identical cables with short length would be great since length add resistance. I wish i could drive my Scintilla actively but thats pretty much impossible since the tweeter ribbon is 0.1ohm !!

Try Biwiring and if budget permits biamping with a external electronic crossover (behringer, tact, lyngdorf) and i am sure youll hear a difference. Now if the difference stands next to the spending is a different story :-)

-Flo

[mixadude]

The best crossover point is no crossover point or only one... [right RGA ;-)]
But we can make up for that by having crossover points in regions were our ear does not notice it much. For instance on the VMPS RM30 the crossover points are 166Hz and 7Khz. Which means that in the biggest part of the audiable range there is no crossover and all drivers are identical which gives you perfect transition. If you have a break in the 3KHz range and move from one driver to another you will not have a smooth transition. Now some speakers do this better than others, but it would be best to have a x-over at something below 500Hz and above 5Khz in order to prevent that.

-Flo


This is from http://www.transom.org/tools/editing_mixing/200402.voiceprocessing.htmlHey Flo, I agree wholeheartedly about the 166 and 7k buisness. I do have a problem with xovers at 500Hz (it's right in the path of vocals) as far as the ultimate solution is concerned; the 166cps you mention in the VMPS RM30 would be much better. Also the the stuff about the voice being the predominate distinguisher in regards to coherancy differentiation is spot on in my book. As far as I'm concerned though, the difference between 3k and 7k is less objectionable if handled properly than the difference between 166Hz and 500Hz, but then I'm older and hear things differently. Also note that those higher frequency wavelengths are much shorter and more easily maniplated physically in a small transducer, and even cheaper to fix in the crossover.

After all that, I must say that I've never seen two drivers that match perfectly, and that's as a statement of measureable quantification. Maybe if you select the best 2 out of 10 you might come close.

Also we haven't even approached the directional characteristics of drivers capable of reproducing the various ranges. There's a great modifier to your soundstage, Q, and direct/reflected ratio. Not only that, but it changes all throughout the spectrum as the wavelength from each dirver approaches (edit... meant 1/2 the wavelength, where beaminess ensues) the wavelength of the physical size of the driver. Actually this one specification has become king in live sound... directional control. It's why large sophisticated line arrays have become so popular :D

[PAT.P]

Well i do biwire and on my speaker it makes a huge difference. I think it depends entirely on speaker design. The best way would be to use cables with different characteristics (more bass or more height) and use it either on the mid/hi or bass input to achieve the sonic signature you want. Two identical cables with short length would be great since length add resistance. I wish i could drive my Scintilla actively but thats pretty much impossible since the tweeter ribbon is 0.1ohm !!

Try Biwiring and if budget permits biamping with a external electronic crossover (behringer, tact, lyngdorf) and i am sure youll hear a difference. Now if the difference stands next to the spending is a different story :-)

-Flo
Flo Never heard a cable with more bass or more height :confused:What cable would you recommend As for an external electronic crossover ,what would you recommend in the Behringer.Wife is going away to Checkerland(Czech) I'll have time to kill.And yes Im taking notes .Thanks Pat.P

[Florian]

Hey Flo, I agree wholeheartedly about the 166 and 7k buisness. I do have a problem with xovers at 500Hz (it's right in the path of vocals) as far as the ultimate solution is concerned; the 166cps you mention in the VMPS RM30 would be much better. Also the the stuff about the voice being the predominate distinguisher in regards to coherancy differentiation is spot on in my book. As far as I'm concerned though, the difference between 3k and 7k is less objectionable if handled properly than the difference between 166Hz and 500Hz, but then I'm older and hear things differently. Also note that those higher frequency wavelengths are much shorter and more easily maniplated physically in a small transducer, and even cheaper to fix in the crossover.

After all that, I must say that I've never seen two drivers that match perfectly, and that's as a statement of measureable quantification. Maybe if you select the best 2 out of 10 you might come close.

Also we haven't even approached the directional characteristics of drivers capable of reproducing the various ranges. There's a great modifier to your soundstage, Q, and direct/reflected ratio. Not only that, but it changes all throughout the spectrum as the wavelength from each dirver approaches the wavelength of the physical size of the driver. Actually this one specification has become king in live sound... directional control. It's why large sophisticated line arrays have become so popular :D
Yup also true. :-) There are some companys that select the best out of 10 for matching, but they usually carry a hiher price tag. I think that if you dont know the company/products then the x-overs points are a good think to look at while shopping.

[Florian]

Flo Never heard a cable with more bass or more height :confused:What cable would you recommend As for an external electronic crossover ,what would you recommend in the Behringer.Wife is going away to Checkerland(Czech) I'll have time to kill.And yes Im taking notes .Thanks Pat.P
Well i have noticed this actually. Most cables that i have which are solid core are quite thick like the Audioquest Slate and do reinforce the bass a bit. My smaller/thinner wires like the Wireworld Solstice have less bass but more definition in the heighs. I think this comes from the the overall resistance of the cable. You need to play a bit around with that, build yourself some cables from CAT5 and see if you hear the difference.

The Behringer Units have digital room correction and electronic crossovers which you can use with 2 power amps. You can also you the electronic x-over in combination with a good subwoofer and set different slopes and x-over points with better integration than what the makes alows you to set.

-Flo

[Resident Loser]

...belong in the cable forum...but...

More bass(height???, no less!!!) from a wire? Yeah, right...Cables may affect the high freqs and roll them off, giving the IMPRESSION of more bass, but that's entirely subjective and anecdotal; simply based on the fact that such things are relative in nature...

Don't like "hi-fi"...tsk, tsk...that's what the majority of folks are here to talk about...Sorry you find us peons offensive to your pretense and sensibilities...I have a mid-fi(price-wise) system that's worth about $5kUSD...and I listen to music...you prefer to be a high-end gearhead, have at it, but don't p!$$ and moan because you can't find someone to compare notes with, in your "exclusive" little playground.

As the saying goes, "Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out"

jimHJJ(...Bon voyage!...)

[Florian]

...belong in the cable forum...but...

More bass(height???, no less!!!) from a wire? Yeah, right...Cables may affect the high freqs and roll them off, giving the IMPRESSION of more bass, but that's entirely subjective and anecdotal; simply based on the fact that such things are relative in nature...

Don't like "hi-fi"...tsk, tsk...that's what the majority of folks are here to talk about...Sorry you find us peons offensive to your pretense and sensibilities...I have a mid-fi(price-wise) system that's worth about $5kUSD...and I listen to music...you prefer to be a high-end gearhead, have at it, but don't p!$$ and moan because you can't find someone to compare notes with, in your "exclusive" little playground.

As the saying goes, "Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out"

jimHJJ(...Bon voyage!...) Thank you for only reading the first post :p ......

[Resident Loser]

Thank you for only reading the first post...

...I also read the few most recent. How else would I have known about, and been able to comment on, the cable remarks?

Your first post is the crux of the biscuit, and that is what the remaining content of my response touched on...anything in the ensuing chit-chat is, for the most part, irrelevant IMHO...

jimHJJ(...a thousand pardons if I continue to offend thee...)

[Florian]

...I also read the few most recent. How else would I have known about, and been able to comment on, the cable remarks?

Your first post is the crux of the biscuit, and that is what the remaining content of my response touched on...anything in the ensuing chit-chat is, for the most part, irrelevant IMHO...

jimHJJ(...a thousand pardons if I continue to offend thee...)
It seems that you are out to pick a fight, sorry to disapoint you :D

-Have a good one

[GMichael]

I do like to blast the R&R from time to time. But I also like jazz as well. I guess I'll have to listen and think about it for a bit. The WAF shouldn't be a problem this time. These are going down stairs along with my pool table. I'm being kicked out of the family room. hahaha... So the basement is MINE.

[Resident Loser]

...or strong response is tantamount to picking a fight IYO?...


It seems that you are out to pick a fight, sorry to disapoint you

That speaks volumes, at least to me...

jimHJJ(...as earlier, bon voyage...)

[Florian]

I do like to blast the R&R from time to time. But I also like jazz as well. I guess I'll have to listen and think about it for a bit. The WAF shouldn't be a problem this time. These are going down stairs along with my pool table. I'm being kicked out of the family room. hahaha... So the basement is MINE.
The basement is the place to be :p I listen to mostly Orchestral Metal and Symphonic Metal. Ocasionally Pipe Organ music and classical along with Soft Rock or Hard Rock.

-Flo

[PAT.P]

...or strong response is tantamout to picking a fight IYO?...



That speaks volumes, at least to me...

jimHJJ(...as earlier, bon voyage...)
Resident Loser Give it a break I ask Flo some advice and in return Im learning and benefiting from it.Let bygone be bygone.Go and bark somebody else tree.Pat.P

[PAT.P]

Flo Thanks again for the advice ,know I have work to do to improve my system.Who says you cant show a old dog a new trick!Your advice on crossover was most informing.Pat.P

[shokhead]

This has turned into the Flo's advice thread. Time for a high priced place. Out of my league.

[GMichael]

Flo is showing a lot of maturity by not getting into a pissing fight with you. I applaud him for it.

[shokhead]

A non-Hershon fight might be a nice change of pace. LOL
Get it on!

[Florian]

Actually the better one understands High End the better he will understand the lower priced equipment too. The basic functionality is the same (drivers, magnets, crossovers etc...) just the amount of care and quality that goes into these products are different.

-Flo

[GMichael]

Little by little it will grow. Thanks for your help Flo. I appreciate how you can help with $500 speaker decisions even though you are removed from that level personally. I do like how the Maggies can be upgraded up to a full year. Something for me to keep in mind. My only real concern with them is the dispersion. But since they will be going into a large room I am hoping that it will not matter.

[Florian]

Little by little it will grow. Thanks for your help Flo. I appreciate how you can help with $500 speaker decisions even though you are removed from that level personally. I do like how the Maggies can be upgraded up to a full year. Something for me to keep in mind. My only real concern with them is the dispersion. But since they will be going into a large room I am hoping that it will not matter.
Your welcome !

The dispersion is not really bad, but one needs to sit in the middle to get the right effect. What model are you considering?

-Flo

PS: I have had quite a few Maggies and still have one ;-)

[Resident Loser]

Resident Loser Give it a break I ask Flo some advice and in return Im learning and benefiting from it.Let bygone be bygone.Go and bark somebody else tree.Pat.P

...ask your question in the proper forum...this is "site feedback" or hadn't you noticed...and number two, since Florian is a "moderator" he most certainly should have nipped it in the bud...he carps about quitting because there's no one to play with at his level, dodges responses to that premise and holds court to entertain questions that have absolutely no reason to be here.

So' I'll tell you what, go P!$$ up a rope...

jimHJJ(...or into the wind...)

[GMichael]

Unfortunately I will have to start small. For now it will have to be a pair of MMG, a MMGC and a pair of MMGW for surround. Later, another pair of MMGW's for the rear. Hopefully the MMG's will get traded in for MG12 or MG1.6 depending on the $$ available at that time.
This room will also have my pool table in it, so sitting in one place isn't going to happen much. But if the pool table is on the other end of the room there should be more dispersion by time the sound reaches that end of the room right? If not then I may have to research alternatives. I do like the sound of the maggies very much though. I see a few other electrostatic speakers that have more dispersion. But their prices are out of my reach right now.

[Florian]

Unfortunately I will have to start small. For now it will have to be a pair of MMG, a MMGC and a pair of MMGW for surround. Later, another pair of MMGW's for the rear. Hopefully the MMG's will get traded in for MG12 or MG1.6 depending on the $$ available at that time.
This room will also have my pool table in it, so sitting in one place isn't going to happen much. But if the pool table is on the other end of the room there should be more dispersion by time the sound reaches that end of the room right? If not then I may have to research alternatives. I do like the sound of the maggies very much though. I see a few other electrostatic speakers that have more dispersion. But their prices are out of my reach right now.
The MMG will be fine, but remember that they cannot play very loud or have lots of bass. Actually the have very fast and acurate bass, but not very punchy. The dispersion should be fine on a bigger distance. Will you use a subwoofer with it?

-Flo

[GMichael]

Yes, I do plan on having a sub. I like my base so I have budgeted more for it. I like the Sunfire Super Junior.

[Resident Loser]

Flo is showing a lot of maturity by not getting into a pissing fight with you. I applaud him for it.

He says he wants to quit...so let him...that's what this thread is all about anyway...

jimHJJ(...stand over there next to Pat P. will ya'...)

P.S. I think it was around post #21 where the thread turned into the "I am Florian, hear me roar" show...prior to that, many folks wished him a good trip...

[Florian]

Yes, I do plan on having a sub. I like my base so I have budgeted more for it. I like the Sunfire Super Junior.
The Sunfire is a very good choice, and also a Velodyne HGS 10 or small Rel is great.

:-)

[GMichael]

Thanks, I'll look into those before I make a purchase.

[PAT.P]

...ask your question in the proper forum...this is "site feedback" or hadn't you noticed...and number two, since Florian is a "moderator" he most certainly should have nipped it in the bud...he carps about quitting because there's no one to play with at his level, dodges responses to that premise and holds court to entertain questions that have absolutely no reason to be here.

So' I'll tell you what, go P!$$ up a rope...

jimHJJ(...or into the wind...)
Resident Loser Im the one that ask him advice on a pair of towers I have .He gave me is input on the spec,crossover ,and bi-wiring .Why are you starting to criticize or trying to start a fight ? Im sorry if it turn to be what it became, not Flo fault but mine.Pat.P

[Resident Loser]

...it started at post #21(which is why I mentioned it) and had nothing to do with you...you showed up at #59 and funny thing, had pretty much the same sort of "take-a-hike" attitude re: his snobbish, high-end, condescending manner...it's not your fault, other people(both mods) changed the direction of the thread from the "I quit" mode to whatever it has become.

Again up 'til #21(and even therafter) many folks just gave him a big wave good-bye...

IMNSHO, it was a flaccid cry for attention on his part, as he sought some validation for his existence here...tsk! tsk! Nobody's paying attention...waaahhh!!!

jimHJJ(...and after he got new gear and everything...)

[RGA]

I hope you haven't considered any of my responses as "beating up on you", but you'll have to admit that chances are very high that AN will somehow work it's way into the discussion with your posts. :)

rw

Well it probably will only because I have logged the msot recent time on them -- it's pretty hard not to bring the line you know into a discussion when referencing some topic. Especially when it comes to posts like "Standmounts have no bass" or "I need a high efficency speaker that will work close to a wall or in a corner." It is pretty tough becaue on the first I have to use them as an example to counter the generalization and ont he secondquite frankly I have heard no others. If you look at most posts on AA where posts on speakers come up I say nothing -- posts such as the examples I have given here is usually where I make a suggestion. If you look at other posters they will often recommend the same or similar products eveyr thread -- Magnapanners and Green Mountain Audio circulate routine. Indeed, some guys ask a question " i need a smaller speaker that can go close to walls can play loud hard rock" So someone suggests the MMG? Hell he 1.6 can't do this so there are a lot of people posting their speaker no matter what the post is asking for -- I try not to do that. If someone wants a specific thing and my number one speaker doesn't fit the bill it won't get mentioned. then someomne else will bring it up and I'll certainly defend the misinformation printed.

[RGA]

The best crossover point is no crossover point or only one... [right RGA ;-)]
But we can make up for that by having crossover points in regions were our ear does not notice it much. For instance on the VMPS RM30 the crossover points are 166Hz and 7Khz. Which means that in the biggest part of the audiable range there is no crossover and all drivers are identical which gives you perfect transition. If you have a break in the 3KHz range and move from one driver to another you will not have a smooth transition. Now some speakers do this better than others, but it would be best to have a x-over at something below 500Hz and above 5Khz in order to prevent that.


Well no it's not where it crosses over that is the only consideration because if the drvier is being asked to fill a huge range in the middle then chances are it's goiong to beam somewhere or cause some other problem. And it depends on the ear that is doing the noticing. You can break at 3khz or 4khz if the drivers are finely aligned such that you don't notice it -- this range is typically chosesn because the drivers are not under duress. Part of the problem with B&W and several ex-owners and compeitors and engineers dislike is the 4khz crossover chosen by B&W on most of their speakers -- the problem isn;t the crossover it's that the kevlar beams and sounds fatiguing in the upper part of its passband. It gives a "detailed" sound and more perceived treble information but many after a while find it fatiguing. If they used a better or different tweeter that could go lower the kevlar may have less work to do.

[E-Stat]

Well it probably will only because I have logged the msot recent time on them -- it's pretty hard not to bring the line you know into a discussion when referencing some topic.
You make good points in your response. Here again, it's just a mild tease on your devotion to the line. I've never heard ANs as there is no Atlanta dealer and neither of my reviewer friends has gotten a pair.

FWIW, I prefer stand mounting my Double Advents as well for a smoother low end and better image size.

rw

[RGA]

All

Advice is like an A-hole everyone's...

First of all taking the advice on a sound system should be about the figuring out what a person likes and determining if their listening experience matches your own. There are some comments made here by Flo that I strongly disagree with -- indicating that the B&W 800 series should not be compared to Wilson or Apogee or whatever else Flo likes is IMO wrong -- or that a 5k system cannot be as high end as a $20k one. Maybe it's because Flo is 22 and he associates price with quality (only up to the point he can afford then any more money spent is a waste) but this line of opinion is not what many people would agree with and certainly not me. Certainly you CAN spend 20K and get a better system than a $5k system...but what is better is going to be quite a lot different depending what you want from a system. I can spend $19.5k on a front end and run them through a $500.00 Bose. Or I could have a well balanced system at $5k running Magnepan 1.6 and some Rotel for $5k.

No matter the price there are speakers I don't care for and would not buy. Contrary to what Flo is saying I have heard the what is considered to be the best musically sounding Apogee in the Duetta a pricey but not really pricey speaker and I know of a few B&W's that I would take over it or any planar stat I've heard starting with the model Nautilus http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20Nautilus which is of course way more expensive but nevertheless it is in the 800 series range according to B&W. The Matrix 805 I preferred to the Duetta as well.

I am very leary when people make this kind of price generalization and one who seems to imply he's heard every speaker on the planet at 22. With what is the question? Not all gear is well suited to the equipment running it for a start.

I just auditioned Corwin99's Gershman Acoustics X1-Sub1 and his Audio Note K/Spe which musically is IMO me much better than the 4-6 times the price Wilson Sophias. Corwin was Running some modest Oddysey Monoblocks for about $3k and what we mainly auditioned a Sonici Frontiers (I believe) Line 1 preamp which about 10 years old and a Sony 555ES source. The Sophia was running $50+k worth of Krell and Mark Levinson in a BETTER professionally set-up room. Corwin's room had open halls couches in the way the speakers beside each other - not ideal due to sympathetic vibrations and less than ideal positioning.

And DESPITE all of that you'd have to be tone deaf IMO to take the Wilson Krell system -- it's more impressive looking and it has a huge stickker price to brag about and it sounded good but better it sure was not. the Gershman's have a similar design approach (and similar look) but integrates and sounds more cohesive and like real music. IMO the K is better than both of them but doesn't have the bass depth - but on double Bass of the tracks we played I felt it sounded more realistic at what bass it did present even with SS gear we were using.

This goes across lines to amps and preamps -- the weakest sounding amp to me on the day was a Musical Fidelity power amp(and whatever preamp they had running it) which I felt was no better than the modded Sonic Impact Class T amp you can buy for $30.00. The MF no doubt was well over a thousand dollars.

There are speakers and systems that are designed for gear heads who like to talk about the gear -- I'm less interested in all of that -- I used to be but I really don't care to talk about audiophile buzzwords. It starts for me and ends for me about the music reproduced - at 22 it's about how Cool the bass guitar sounds out of a speaker and how great the speaker can rattle the wall or how extended the treble is. None of this stuff is music reproduction it's hi-fi. High End is a meaningless term which may be called High Priced.

If by High End you mean very realistic music reproducers well that is
1) Subjective (as not everyone will agree)
2) Next to impossible to judge objectively (not everyone agrees on the measured response as indicators of results)

For example under this High End construction I do not consider the Sophia or the Duetta, or the N804, N801, High End. I do consider the Dane 52Se Audio Note AX Two, Gershmans high end because it to me sounds palpable non articficial. The Duetta's downfall is also its greatest attribute -- the riobbon tweeter. It is a supremely clean fast open transparent tweeter - but never for one second do I believe it is anything other than a tweeter. The Gershman's tweeter is less open less extended almost subdued but it also sounds cohesive with what the other drivers are doing...and has solid if a little overblown bottom end. At the end of the day it's going to be Number 1 and no one on a forum can say which design is going to sound better or worse to you - and price is not an indicator at all. Even from the same company people prefer lower models -- I preferred the CDM 7NT to the 9NT etc.

[StanleyMuso]

You are the same age as my son. Your outbursts are forgiven, my boy, for you can't help yourself. It is the fault of all youth to believe they know everything. You may be clever in the ways of electronic technology, but a lot more awaits you in your life before men can call you wise. Please don't get disheartend and know that good advice is always appreciated.

[Florian]

You are the same age as my son. Your outbursts are forgiven, my boy, for you can't help yourself. It is the fault of all youth to believe they know everything. You may be clever in the ways of electronic technology, but a lot more awaits you in your life before men can call you wise. Please don't get disheartend and know that good advice is always appreciated.
I am sure i have a LOT to learn in that regard :p

[mixadude]

You are the same age as my son. Your outbursts are forgiven, my boy, for you can't help yourself. It is the fault of all youth to believe they know everything. You may be clever in the ways of electronic technology, but a lot more awaits you in your life before men can call you wise. Please don't get disheartend and know that good advice is always appreciated.Accompanied by an outstreched left hand, backside first :p

not to say I did any better, but at least I said i was impressed :D

[Bang&OlufsenJones]

I believe this. If all the speakers, components, receivers, and every little thing audio were put into a room without pricetags, and people could listen to any configuration that they wanted to, a lot of people would pick high end products, and others wouldn't.
The point remains that anybody can think anything they want about a system.
A forum should be a community. And in communities you will have people that feel like they are in a world of their own. Feel like they always need to be the center of attention. Feel like they should always be in control. Think they are better than everyone else. And even the occasional bully.
I feel bad for florian if he feels alone and as if he has no one to talk to about high end audio. On the other end I also feel bad for the Loser if he feels like he has been attacked.

As I feel like I am just rambling on without a point I'll get to where I'm going.

Florian.. If you feel like you have no one to talk to about audio, ask me. I am no expert, but I do have a some what decent stereo system and have written a few articles in what some would say prominent audiophile magazines.

As I have never posted anything in this forum before, the reason could be that you have beaten me to the punch.

Remember, nobody likes a quitter, that's why I still smoke.

[JoeE SP9]

Unfortunately I will have to start small. For now it will have to be a pair of MMG, a MMGC and a pair of MMGW for surround. Later, another pair of MMGW's for the rear. Hopefully the MMG's will get traded in for MG12 or MG1.6 depending on the $$ available at that time.
This room will also have my pool table in it, so sitting in one place isn't going to happen much. But if the pool table is on the other end of the room there should be more dispersion by time the sound reaches that end of the room right? If not then I may have to research alternatives. I do like the sound of the maggies very much though. I see a few other electrostatic speakers that have more dispersion. But their prices are out of my reach right now.
Magneplaners are not electrostatics. They are planar magnetics. Eminent Technology also makes planar magnetics. This doesn't mean I don't like Maggies. Two of my audio buddies own Magnepans (MG1.6QR's and MG3.6R's) largely on my recommendation. I also happen to think that the Maggy 1.6QR's are the best buy in audio. Florian, I hear differences in cables and wires. I don't care what the objectivists say. There are differences. When I was a newly degreed BS EE I thought measurements and DBT told all. I learned better over the years. Always trust your own ears over any spec or test result. If we are deceiving ourselves so what! It's our money and life. This is a hobby; it's something that some people don't seem to understand.

[GMichael]

Magneplaners are not electrostatics. They are planar magnetics. Eminent Technology also makes planar magnetics. This doesn't mean I don't like Maggies. Two of my audio buddies own Magnepans (MG1.6QR's and MG3.6R's) largely on my recommendation. I also happen to think that the Maggy 1.6QR's are the best buy in audio. Florian, I hear differences in cables and wires. I don't care what the objectivists say. There are differences. When I was a newly degreed BS EE I thought measurements and DBT told all. I learned better over the years. Always trust your own ears over any spec or test result. If we are deceiving ourselves so what! It's our money and life. This is a hobby; it's something that some people don't seem to understand.

Thanks, I will look into the differences to find out what I was missing.

[Peter_Klim]

It is not an job at all, and people like PeterK, Itch etc... dont make it easier.

What did I do??

[Peter_Klim]

Actually you dont, and you never will because you are not there yet.

Not where yet??

If you use the word "yet", doesn't that indicate that I will/could be there at some point in time? Then why say that I'll "never" be there? (where ever that may be)

And how do you know that I'm not there yet? Maybe I am.

[Peter_Klim]

Over the past years/month as a moderator and user I have seen many systems, some good, some very good, most bad and I find it harder and harder everyday to commit myself to moderate/write in an audio gallery/forum that is not about high-end but about hifi. Of course hifi should have a place in society, but i look for forums which were meant to be for people to share experiences so the ultimate in music reproduction could be obtained for all who are interested.

However, during the past couple of months, I have only helped out other people while I was anxiously waiting for some input of equal level, but I noticed a vast increase in entry level systems that should not be thrown around with High End systems. Since there is no ending in these kind of discussions (300$ bookshelv vs. 20K fullrange). I hereby resign as a moderator and member because i simply cant stand it anymore.

I know i was definetly not always neutral or nice, but a lot depends on each other and this is stressing me endlessly. Members that have nothing better to do than envy people with high price tag systems will bring this forum down. The GOAL should not be to find the biggest deal on the net! The GOAL should be to find the ultimate in music reproduction to ones best ability.

-Flo

PS: There are many nice people on this forum, and i am not generalising here!

"Over the past years/month as a moderator and user I have seen many systems, some good, some very good, most bad and I find it harder and harder everyday to commit myself to moderate/write in an audio gallery/forum that is not about high-end but about hifi."

I never knew this forum was about high end or even hi fi....I thought it was about audio (AUDIOreview.com)

"I have only helped out other people while I was anxiously waiting for some input of equal level" - sounds selfish to me

" I know i was definetly not always neutral or nice, but a lot depends on each other and this is stressing me endlessly" - this stresses you out?? You're still young and your life has just begun.

"Members that have nothing better to do than envy people with high price tag systems will bring this forum down" - "some" guys with expensive systems like yours live for the envy. Why else would you post your system pics with pictures of yourself in them?

"The GOAL should be to find the ultimate in music reproduction to ones best ability." - for some, that is limited to $300 bookshelf speakers.

I have no gripe against you, but please, take it easy. Every so often it seems like you expect everyone to have/purchase expensive systems and if they don't then they shouldn't write or post about their inexpensive systems. Once I've seen you brag about you're cables costing more than some of these systems. Once I've seen you states something in the lines of "I can't stand all these noobies with their junk systems!" And sometimes when you finally do compliment some one's sytems, you but a damper on it by ending it with "but it's still a box speaker" - ok already, we know your speakers are better - no need to remind us that others are not as good. Sometimes these things you say can make you look like a snob.

Just take it easy and don't make your desires for someone to have this or that become your goals. I mean realy, a 20 year old something stressing over the reason you gave for this moderator job? I can't imagine once you have a wife and kids. Then you'll hardly have any toime to listen to your sweet Apogees (or whatever system you will have by then).

I'm not writing this stuff to put you down, just hoping you take things a little less seriously and more joyful.

Peace out.

[Peter_Klim]

Anyway, after finishing reading this thread where I left off, you seem to have come to a new understanding of what we were all trying to say. I'm glad to hear it. Hope things turn out better this time for ya!

[shokhead]

"Over the past years/month as a moderator and user I have seen many systems, some good, some very good, most bad and I find it harder and harder everyday to commit myself to moderate/write in an audio gallery/forum that is not about high-end but about hifi."

I never knew this forum was about high end or even hi fi....I thought it was about audio (AUDIOreview.com)

"I have only helped out other people while I was anxiously waiting for some input of equal level" - sounds selfish to me

" I know i was definetly not always neutral or nice, but a lot depends on each other and this is stressing me endlessly" - this stresses you out?? You're still young and your life has just begun.

"Members that have nothing better to do than envy people with high price tag systems will bring this forum down" - "some" guys with expensive systems like yours live for the envy. Why else would you post your system pics with pictures of yourself in them?

"The GOAL should be to find the ultimate in music reproduction to ones best ability." - for some, that is limited to $300 bookshelf speakers.

I have no gripe against you, but please, take it easy. Every so often it seems like you expect everyone to have/purchase expensive systems and if they don't then they shouldn't write or post about their inexpensive systems. Once I've seen you brag about you're cables costing more than some of these systems. Once I've seen you states something in the lines of "I can't stand all these noobies with their junk systems!" And sometimes when you finally do compliment some one's sytems, you but a damper on it by ending it with "but it's still a box speaker" - ok already, we know your speakers are better - no need to remind us that others are not as good. Sometimes these things you say can make you look like a snob.

Just take it easy and don't make your desires for someone to have this or that become your goals. I mean realy, a 20 year old something stressing over the reason you gave for this moderator job? I can't imagine once you have a wife and kids. Then you'll hardly have any toime to listen to your sweet Apogees (or whatever system you will have by then).

I'm not writing this stuff to put you down, just hoping you take things a little less seriously and more joyful.

Peace out.

You mean somebody would buy cables that cost as much as a system? Ouch!

[RGA]

You mean somebody would buy cables that cost as much as a system? Ouch!

Hey and what's really going to erk him -- Audio note makes a 1 meter speaker cable that costs more than the entire Apogee Scintilla. And you need more than 1 meter. :p

[Florian]

Hey and what's really going to erk him -- Audio note makes a 1 meter speaker cable that costs more than the entire Apogee Scintilla. And you need more than 1 meter. :p
Lol, so the 1m cable sells for more than 28K ?

[shokhead]

Hey and what's really going to erk him -- Audio note makes a 1 meter speaker cable that costs more than the entire Apogee Scintilla. And you need more than 1 meter. :p

Funny,my wife told me the same thing.

[RGA]

odd I just passed up a Scintilla on site that was going for $800.00US?

The list price when it came out was under $5000.00(GBP) about $8k US. $800.00 is 1/10 that price - probably should have picked it up. $28k -- someone overpaid greatly.

[Florian]

No, you just are not informed correctly thats all. The Scintilla is now aprox. 20 years old and ALL scintilla's need new foam aswell asnew ribbons by now. The introducty price was about 10K US back in 85. The price was then raised with the later revisons. New ribbons run aprox. 8K excl. the foam, rebuild, chassy and huge x-overs. Since we know of aprox. only 40 pairs left in the world with my pair being the best scintilla in the world the value of 28K is quite accurate. But no need to brag about prices, i am sure that you hear the multi thousand dollar cable difference from AN juuust right.

-Flo

[GMichael]

I would not be very surprised to see some fool, oops, I mean to say, someone who has too much money for their own good, spend $28k on a cable. On this site alone there's a guy who paid 250,000 for a pair of speakers. A 1/4 mil!? He says they are nice. OK. Then on the Parts Express site I see these banana connectors at $60.00 each. Let's see, I have 9 speakers, not counting the sub, each one needing 4 connectors. So that's 9 speakers times 4 connectors times $60.00 each. OK, so now we have $2160.00 worth of little connectors that go on the ends of my speaker wire. Oh, that's right, now I need the wire itself. Not to mention the stereo, speakers, TV, DVD, CD, oh yeah, and cables etc... Who buys this stuff and where are they getting the money to throw away like this?
Oops, sorry, lost my head. I'll be good now.

I now return you to your regular scheduled program.

[Florian]

Hehehehe, yup this hobby is pretty insane and i past the point of sanity a long time ago. Well its my only hobby, and i ugraded since years. Well someone has a nice car, and i have a nice speakers.

[GMichael]

Hehehehe, yup this hobby is pretty insane and i past the point of sanity a long time ago. Well its my only hobby, and i ugraded since years. Well someone has a nice car, and i have a nice speakers.

Did you say nice?! I think maybe they are a little more than nice. But that's great. Enjoy them. I would.
I guess that I shouldn't really make fun of the people who spent $k's on stereo equiptment. While you were into stereo, I was into pool & billiards. I'm sure just as many people here will think that I am nuts for spending $5k on a pool stick. After all, it's just wood right? And it's only one of the many cues I have. Or that I spent $16k on a motorcycle. Same thing right. It's what makes us happy with what we can afford.

[Florian]

Thats right. A new car is a lot more than my speakers. Everyone is nuts in their own way :p

[shokhead]

I'm into cycling abit and i know some will spend 200 bucks on a saddle because its 5grams lighter.

[GMichael]

I'm into cycling abit and i know some will spend 200 bucks on a saddle because its 5grams lighter.

Well, those 5 grams could be the diffence between just winning a race, or just loosing by a nose, or a fender.

By the way, my Harley is on the way out and a new system is getting researched. Soon my billiards room will have a new sound.

[Florian]

So it seems i am not the only one who spends tons of money on other non-life-critical stuff :p

[GMichael]

So it seems i am not the only one who spends tons of money on other non-life-critical stuff :p

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. But remember, try not to tell people that your toys are better than their toys. Some of us are emotionaly attached to our toys and will defend them to the death.

[Florian]

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. But remember, try not to tell people that your toys are better than their toys. Some of us are emotionaly attached to our toys and will defend them to the death.
I noticed :p

[shokhead]

Well, those 5 grams could be the diffence between just winning a race, or just loosing by a nose, or a fender.

By the way, my Harley is on the way out and a new system is getting researched. Soon my billiards room will have a new sound.

Oh they dont race,they just ride on the bikepaths like me.

[GMichael]

Oh they dont race,they just ride on the bikepaths like me.

Oh well, bragging rights are fun too.

[laspino]

Over the past years/month as a moderator and user I have seen many systems, some good, some very good, most bad and I find it harder and harder everyday to commit myself to moderate/write in an audio gallery/forum that is not about high-end but about hifi.

I know i was definetly not always neutral or nice, but a lot depends on each other and this is stressing me endlessly. Members that have nothing better to do than envy people with high price tag systems will bring this forum down.
-Flo
!

It's probably for the best you quit. Moderaters should have a measure of maturity, which you seem to lack.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey, whatta Hell is going on here. All I said was that I like puppies. I like kittens too, but I prefer to eat ice cream.

You have a perception problem.