Side fireing bass driver vs. front fireing bass driver

[T BOMB25]

Now i Know your setup on a box speaker is a front fireing bass driver most of the time on floorstanders i want peoples views on wich set up they prefer as as the advantages and disadvantages of both.

[steamboy 2]

It really depends on what sounds the best for you .they both can have great outputs but it really comes down to what sub brand you choose. some subs bands sound better side fireing than the front & vice versa look up reviews on both types or go hear it for yourself & see what works for you.

reply & let me know what you decide.

[T BOMB25]

I didnt mean a subwoofer i meant speakers like my speaker its side firing the Mordaunt-Short Avant 908s ther are sveral speakers with side firing bass drivers

[Florian]

You mean like this ?
Works very well, i own the speaker you see below too. Down to 28Hz !! :-)

http://www.vmpseurope.com/pics/rm30.jpg

[Geoffcin]

I didnt mean a subwoofer i meant speakers like my speaker its side firing the Mordaunt-Short Avant 908s ther are sveral speakers with side firing bass drivers

And I liked both of them.

[T BOMB25]

Yes Yes what are those it looks very impressive it has to image and sound stage very well so lets see what people think clearly side firing bass drivers make the front baffle have less defraction this could turn into the interresting thread on here.What do you think Florian?

[Florian]

The width of the front baffel has a large effect on the "dissapearing" act that speakers can pull. I think that sidefiring drivers are quite benefical but it properbly depends on the design.

-Flo

[T BOMB25]

are those the Apogge sorry didnt spell it right what is us price on those and i know im gonna catch some heat for this but most side firing floorstanders image better than front firing and have a larger and more important more stable soundstage one the things that i love about 2 ways my friend in california has some i think has the 4 ohm version

[Florian]

Hehe..no Apogees are a little more special. The are the finest Scintilla's in the world. Only about 40 left and this one has new ribbons, new chassys, new wiring etc... these weigh 253lbs a piece!!! 22Hz in my room....no box etc...

Here is my Apogee

http://www.maggiefanclub.de/7.jpg

[T BOMB25]

So do own both of them? Have you ever heard the Moordaunt-Short Avant 908s?oh not the Declarations they are old may be the sweetest sounding speaker under $4000us strange since they were totally revamed internally in 2004 there has not been a review on them must be that BOSE thing!

[Florian]

I own both.

You can read up on the Scintilla and make yourself a picture of what your looking at. (no pun intended) These are very very special and if your ever in germany, then drop by and give them a listen. Let me just say that some speakers are measured my technical tests, others by reality.

-Flo

Here are the VMPs when they are in the room. (outdated pic)

http://www.maggiefanclub.de/vmps2.jpg

[Florian]

check the final system here....

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=12160

or in the gallery

[T BOMB25]

I can name several side firing speakers that out perform very very silly expensive speakers,VA Strauss,Mauler,Aerial Accoustc 8b,Coincident Technology Total Eclipse,and Audio Physic Vergo 3 and Joseph Audio RM33si

[Florian]

Well thats all cool too !!!

:p

[RGA]

I have never heard a side firing woofer in a speaker sound good - that does not mean they can't. Deep bass should be directionless to the ear. The Snell B-Minor a $5,000+ speaker was IMO a terrible loudspeaker --- it got rave reviews by Stereophile of course. I have laso heard some from Polk and NHT both were worse but much cheaper so they were reasonable. A wide baffle has nothing to do with whether a speaker will dissapear or not. note some of these are now well over 5 years old so done right positioned correctly I see no reason why a side firing woofer would be worse -- but I see no reason it will be better either.

[Florian]

Noone is saying that its better or worse. But it works too :-)

[T BOMB25]

Hey Florian the Apogge would probably sound very good with the full Unison Unico set up i had on a pair Totem Arrows and Meadalark Blue Herron2s although it couldnt fully explore the bottom end but it was very magical on the Arrows a increadible experience!

[Florian]

The Unico will go up in smoke faster than anything. The Scintilla is 1ohm and drops to 0.6ohms :-) You need like a arc welder for them.

[Florian]

Hey Florian the Apogge would probably sound very good with the full Unison Unico set up i had on a pair Totem Arrows and Meadalark Blue Herron2s although it couldnt fully explore the bottom end but it was very magical on the Arrows a increadible experience!
Well this speaker is not made for affordable equipment. You need Krell KAS, MRA or any Krell Reference or ueber expensive Sphinx stuff. I bought the Unico CD because its awsome for the money (2.2K).... but one day i shall own CEC TL-0 transport with the matching dac....

[T BOMB25]

RGA i have read your replies before i joined this forum and you think you are the only audiophile on here im looking at your setup and im trully unimpressed and those Audio Notes you have dont sound better than any of those speakers i named and not any of the ones you named especially the Polks you named I guess you are taking about the LSi15 get the back issue of absulute sound they measured as one the most neutral speakers from 200 hertz on up and this aint 5 yrs ago quit second guessing yourself yeah and upgrade those boxes you have!

[Florian]

Becarefull there Buddy. The AN's are not everyones taste but they properbly do have some characteristics that some will love. We dont want to get personal here, and forget all the Magazines they give the best reviews to the ones with the most advertising. And we all know who that is :D

-Flo

[Ravian]

What are all you guys talking about Polks and Audio Notes and stuff? And what about measured performance? First of all that doesn't mean jack in the rooms you have at your place and second of all these things are nice to play when you want some background music at your diner table. If you want an orchestra smacked right in your living room you need surface, you need impact, sheer force and refinement. So I'm talking Genesis, Infinity IRS, Apogees, etc... and powered by someting equally impressive too. Since when are these mass-produced coffins you call speakers high-end? Those speakers aren't even full range to begin with. Best performance from 200 Hz up? What about below that?? I haven't heard a single new speaker in the last 10 years that had any decent bass. People tend to forget there's a lot of spacial info in that area too. Man, no wonder this business is going downhill... Before you ask, I'm not a snob, I also started small but I can't stand it when hifi is pretending to be high end. There's about lightyears between them...

[T BOMB25]

Sorry Florian you did state the 1 ohm version I was thinking 4 ohms so something like the
MF Kilowatt power wise anyway i dont know the tonal balance them some speakers sound kind of clinical with the MF gear what do you think?

[T BOMB25]

Did you read this thread? it doesent seem like it but anyway 10 years you need to get out more maybe you need to go hear a pair of Wilson Watt Puppies or the Ariel 20Ts and get your memory refreshed

[T BOMB25]

So Raven since all of us have massed produced speakers what do you have?

[RGA]

Well Flo is right not everyone is going to agree and some don't agree with you TBOMB.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=2650

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475 (They bought this speaker and the replacement version of it)

[T BOMB25]

Yeah thats true RGA .but the fact remains side firing speakers do have advantages as far the bass its much cleaner and it gives the mid range more room to breath as far as atmasphere deph and openess i didnt say it didnt dissadvantages more room dependent problems in underdamed rooms and the crossover design has to be done very well since generally it has to be at least a 3 way.Yes they are tricky to build well but done right utter bliss distortions are sorted out better but they have to be because you will hear it better.

[RGA]

I see no reason for a three way in general let alone ones where the woofer is so far from the other drivers. There are MANY diifferent apprioaches and belief systems out there and I have attempted to get a sample of each and tried where possible to get the best examples from companies noted for the design. UHF magazine believes that the best reproduction comes from a Point source as music comes from a point source and all large speakers suffer at doing this credibly -- Hi-Fi choice alludes to the problem of three ways in the Polk review -- I won three ways and I can attest to their complaints with them.

When I was twenty I mostly talked about speakers in terms of freuqency bass treble extension stage depth and width (now a mix of imaging and soundstaging) and now I usually only discuss it to defend something but not necessairly in terms of better speakers have deeper response. Having deep bass can be important having deep ENOUGH bass but being of high resolution is IMO more important. I don't want to hear anything that is not a cohesive presentation and three ways have an immense problem with sounding "as one" in fact most two ways don't get it right either. Unfortunately most one ways don't cover enough oif the band.

Most 2 ways also don't have satisfactory bass and buying a sub turns it into a three way. I'm not saying all three ways are bad because I enjoy the ones I own and many other 3 ways I've heard are better...but I would not be too gravitated on the notion of price. I have heard the $16,000Cad Wilson Sophias and they are good three way speakers but more problematic than some two ways and the AN you blasted has much deeper bass response for $13,000.00 less money and sounds one heckuva lot more "cohesive" like real instruments.

I may not be deemed credible as an owner so why not do some research and listening tests of your own. Mr. Constantine Soo is a huge wealthy Audiophile and Reviewer who points out the advantages and disadvantage of each of his speakers and those he reviews. As owners we tend not to ever want to point out the "weaknesses" of what we bought whether it's because we can't admit there are any weaknesses or because we have the audible equivelant of Rose coloured glasses I do not pretend to know. Males typically hate having their egos be anything but stroked.

He owns(not the full list):

Speakers:

Apogee Duetta Signature
Audio Note AN-E SEC Silver
Celestion SL700
ELAC CL330JET
Genesis VI
Loth-X BS1
Rethm 2nd
Tannoy Churchill Wideband
Tannoy TD10
Audio Note AN-E/D
Klipschorn

Digital Front End

47 Laboratory 4705 Progression DAC
47 Laboratory 4705-G Gemini Progression DAC
47 Laboratory 4707 PiTracer CD Transport
Audio Note DAC One 1.1x Signature
Audio Note DAC 5 Special
GW Labs DSP Engine
Harmonix Reimyo DAP-777 20bit K2 DAC
Sony SCD-777ES SACD/CD player
CEC TL1 belt-drive CD transport,
Wadia 27 Decoding Computer


Amplification

47 Laboratory 4706 dual mono Gaincard S with DACT24 & Cardas
posts
Audion Golden Silver Night 300B monoblocks
Decware SE84C
GW Labs 270 tube power amplifier
Harmonix Reimyo CAT-777 preamplifier
Harmonix Reimyo PAT-777 300B stereo amplifier
Linn Klimax Twin
Loth X JI300 integrated amplifier
Reference Line Preeminence Two passive preamplifier
Reference Line Preeminence One Signature power amplifier]
Z-systems RDP-1 Reference Digital Preamplifier
Aragon 2004
Audio Note M3 preamplifier
Audio Note Quest 300B monoblocks
GW Labs Cyclop Integrated Amplifier
Krell KRC-2
Monarchy Audio SM70 monoblocks
Music Reference RM9 II

Cables

Audio Note AN-La (8 feet, bi-wired)
Audio Note AN-V silver interconnects (RCA 1m, 2 pairs)
Cardas 5c speaker cable (8 feet)
Granite Audio #470 silver cables (RCA 1m, 2 pairs)
Kimber Kable AGDL digital cable (0.5m)
TMC XLR (1m)
Van den Hul MCD-352 (8 feet)

He reviews the E/D but he also COMPARES the speaker to most all the other speakers he owns (the E/D is the cheapest). He is way more fair I suppose than I would be or other forumers who love one thing to the exclusion of all else. YMMV.

http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-D.html

And the at the time top version http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SILVER.html

[topspeed]

until it turned into a pissing match.

Too bad.

[T BOMB25]

It was and still until Audio Note man over bashed the whole design he is discrediting lots of world class speakers thats why its called a thread its to discuss a specific topic so in other words he is saying that his Audio Noyes are better rhan something like the VA Maulers and this comming from a company know more their amps and cd players i know and hope that everyone knows their eqiupments place i am not afraid to admit that my speakers are not as good some as some Dynaudio evidence no they over 50 times more my ego is not that like some others!

[T BOMB25]

Come on you know What Hi-Fi and Hi-Fi choice are the 2 of the most biased books you can buy both of them are the ones that said Mission speakers are great when i worked at H.H.Gregg we carried them and they sucked the brightest top end in speakers today and as far as Polk goes when is the last time you them give an american speaker agood review their reviews are totally different than anyone elses and its not aBritish thing either because other British books are not like that such as Hi-Fi Word,and HiF plus both of them are biased towards speakers that are 2 ways and speakers that cost over 1000 pounds i have been buying their books since 1999 and the only thing they are good for is letting know when something is new so read those other 2 books from England or read the Canadian and American books and then come bonified insults

[RGA]

Hi-Fi Choice and What hi-Fi are not remotely close to being the same magazine -- hi-Fi Choice gives lots of American And Canadian speakers great reviews - Energy, Martin Logan to start. Unfortunately due to the exchange or competitive reasons many American and Canadian speaker makers choose not to go to Europe -- it's a big market but it has a big number of gear - getting in would not be too easy and lasting is another problem. and AN speakers are American designs!! So if you want to read all the Raves that Snell got in the early eighties order some back issues.

I never blasted all side-firing designs I blasted the three that I've heard - hell the guy selling the Snell blasted it and this was a class B full range blah blah blah product that ended up deservedly tanking and was at the time one of the the best examples of this approach -- the Polk is not a cohesive speaker -- and my impression of it is very much the same as Hi-fi Choice. You attacked my choice in speakers "im trully unimpressed and those Audio Notes you have dont sound better than any of those speakers i named and not any of the ones you named especially the Polks you named."

You are certainly entitled to feel that way all you wish without hearing anything from them -- it does not matter to me -- but I never said that all side firing designs were bad. I posted a review from a fellow who owns several different designs -- all of which are no doubt valid approaches to sound reproduction - i figure I would give that to you because he is or should be viewed as WAY more objective than myself. he owns what many people believe are the two best ribbon loudspeakers ever made in the Genesis and the Duetta Signature -- Even the American magazine Stereophile believes the Duetta Sig was the best "sounding" apogee.

"Stereophile review: July 1985 (Vol.8 No.3). It [Scintilla] wasn't the first all-ribbon loudspeaker from Apogee, it wasn't the biggest, and it probably wasn't even the best-sounding (that was probably the Duetta). It was also a pig to drive, with perhaps just the big Krells up to the task of sinking power into what was, at some frequencies, little more than a short circuit.... "

So i was trying to illustrate that Constantine might be a good speaker evaluator -- after all if he thinks the Duetta is great and he thinks the AN is great -- then maybe they're great -- and if he's wrong and the AN sucks then so too obviously does his other speakers. I'm willing to bet that the Genesis and Duetta don't suck...I'm also willing to be that his K-horn is cool(I've heard it, it is).

Topspeed -- how exactly is the apogee a side-firing woofer -- who brought in a non relevant topic? Who even mentioned Audio Note first -- I know you have a serious problem with me but if someone started saying your speaker was a piece of junk compared to a bose 901 (and the Polk LSi is the equivelant to me of the 901 when compared to AN) you might want to question where the person is supposeldy coming from. And Von Sweikert voices their speakers on Audio Note equipment. So obviously Von Sweikert has no clue to be using such low rent equipment correct?

Geez the freaking post asks for what I perceived to be OPINIONS on which is better side firing or not -- I simply stated that the three I heard from very reputable brands I was NOT the least bit impressed by. if you don't want an opinion then don't ask for it because you are not going to ALWAYS get the ego stroking answer you want -- and the answer you clearly wanted is that all Side firing woofers are the best because that's what YOU own. I heard three and I am 0/3 -- maybe there are good ones out there but I'll need to be convinced - and just because it costs a lot isn't enough and winning a sound at show award means little -- no one heard everything at the show no one could.

PS
There are plenty of other speakers I would take over what I own - and in fact there are speakers the designer of my speakers like more than what he makes - he also owns them. That does not mean that I like every $10k speaker over mine just because they're $10k.

And the other mags you mention -- well you should pay attention to the reviewers more than just the ad copy -- you'll see that some work and or worked at Hi-fi Choice (ditto for listener and Stereophile). Martin Colloms is the go to expert for ALL of those magazines - Paul Messenger has crossed at least three of them and Art Dudly the less techie or no techie guy of the lot has been in at least three. The magazines strictly speaking you should not be strictly adhering to anyway because they like most stuff.

Hi-fi Choice's latest few issues gave pretty negative reviews to Rega NAD ARCAM and several british companies while raving about Denon and other non British gear -- it's not their fault if they have 10 European products to 1 foreign product - hardly any North American Gear is represented over there. I have the January 1996 issue in front of me and looking down the first speaker page I saw one American company (I think) Allison and it got a recommended tag. The lines that are listed Bose, JBL, Cerwin Vega -- no offense but I'm not shocked that the magazine like the British Speakers better -- and even here the Bose 305 got a recommned tag. So this is a conspiracy theory that they only like Euro gear -- it's just not the case.


By the Way Martin Collloms STARTED Monitor Audio a speaker company you like and is probably one of the handful foremost Electronics gurus around.

[topspeed]

Topspeed -- how exactly is the apogee a side-firing woofer -- who brought in a non relevant topic? Who even mentioned Audio Note first -- I know you have a serious problem with me but if someone started saying your speaker was a piece of junk compared to a bose 901 (and the Polk LSi is the equivelant to me of the 901 when compared to AN) you might want to question where the person is supposeldy coming from. And Von Sweikert voices their speakers on Audio Note equipment. So obviously Von Sweikert has no clue to be using such low rent equipment correct.Actually Rich, I have no problem with you (as long as you don't talk about cars). That's Flo. I'm used to your blathering about AN so to be honest, I usually just gloss over it. No offense, I'm just not going to take the time to read the same spiel over and over. You're passionate about AN and I applaud that. I may not read it, but I'll respect your right to feel that way.

My response wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. It just seems that the real benefits and disadvantages of this particular design haven't really been discussed. It's more of a "mine is bigger" kind of thing, at least that's how it reads to me. Seriously, what do planars have to do with the topic?

BTW, while Albert does have an AN SET at the shop, he in fact voices them using VAC mono's (at least he did about 6 months ago). He also had a Spectron switching amp and Electrocompaniet on hand, but what does that mean? Maybe he switches his front end around to make sure they sound as good as possible with a wide variety of products? Crazier things have been done.

[RGA]

Yes he does use other amps so I implied he was just using Audio Note - it would not make sense for any company to use just one amplifeir or one amplifier line -- even AN has SS amps around just to make sure it'll be ok. Some they've designed.

My first post if you read it tried to talk about the fact that I see no advantage - waiting then for a reply illustrating all the wonderful advantages which no one yet has mentioned -- instead I get some 25 post person blasting away at my speakers????????? I mentioned the wide baffle defence because my speakers are wide baflle but also because panels are wide baffle - so I thought he was saying they can;t image or soundstage -- my speakers and the maggies I havce heard can soundstage and they can image plenty fine.

My complain is the same as Hi-fi Choice -- woofer too far away doesn't integrate -- that's what I've heard from those speakers - that's what other people have heard from these designs --- so if this is a PRO/CON thread I have put down a con for this design - never mentioned AN.

[theaudiohobby]

RGA,

It is time you started following your own motto "Be your own stereo evaluator - ignore the press "., Your dependency on comments from the press is at odds with your motto.

[kexodusc]

My complain is the same as Hi-fi Choice -- woofer too far away doesn't integrate -- that's what I've heard from those speakers - that's what other people have heard from these designs --- so if this is a PRO/CON thread I have put down a con for this design - never mentioned AN.

This notion of poor integration when bass drivers are spaced far away is just wrong. I won't doubt that Hi-Fi Choice hears something they don't like, but they are attributing something they dislike to a phenomenon that is not the source of their gripe.

If properly setup, the simple fact is a 3-way speaker should deliver the sound to the listener from all three drivers (and port if applicable) at the same time (or at least in synch with the rest of the sound).

The bass frequencies are so large in size that their position on a baffle relative mid-range and tweeters is almost negligible for integration purposes. Consider that a 200 Hz sound wave is instantaneously over 5 feet in size, omni-directional, if emmited from a woofer. A 1 or 2 foot separation isn't going to be audible, we dont' have the ability to pinpoint the source to that a specific point in space, just a general area. By the time sound from a 3-way reaches you, the bass waves completely surround any higher frequency waves and are effectively integrated.

Hell, a lot of instruments have great physical separation between high frequency emitting parts and low frequency emitting parts. Are they not sufficiently integrated?

You're pretty much left with SPL and phase/timing. FR plots will dictate if the SPL is addressed, and phase is likewise looked after. The rest is just the quality of the sound the speaker delivers

I don't doubt that you and Hi-Fi choice dislike what you hear, I just think the cause is misplaced.

Having heard some incredible 3-ways (and some some line-arrays with over 20 drivers spread over 6 feet that would bring you to your knees weeping in joy), this driver separation argument doesn't fly with me. It's a myth.

[T BOMB25]

I started this thread to reactions of what people thought as far as the differences of the two designs because all own differrent designs that why their is over 12000 speakers on the market and i am not even counting China how could really be able to criticise aproven design all of the designs work if properly engineered.I would expect this kind comment from someone who owns a 3 way but not from a guy owns a 2 way and the last time he listened to sidefiring design was 5 years ago come on its speakers that sucked thats improved that would not even listen to that are decent now.Furthermore he showed me areview on his ANs from 1992 that was 13 years ago so what makes anyone think that he even listened to any of sidefiring designs 5 years ago buddy get your head out of books and go listen for real criticize when you get a 3 way or speaker that can go down to at least 40 heartz do you work for Hi-Fi choice WOW at least move up to a review from 2000 SORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING GUYS!

[topspeed]

OK, back on topic. The only speakers I've heard with side firing woofers are the NHT ST4, DefTech BP sc (can't remember model), Energy Audissey 5+2, and Audio Physic Virgo(?). However, the DT and Energy are completely different animals from the NHT and Audio Physic as their side firing woofers are in fact powered subs, each with on-board amps to drive them. Also, as they are bi-polar, their dispersion patterns are quite different, not only from conventional front radiating speakers but also from each other as the Energy's rear array is intentionally out of phase from the front.

This design seems to be the new "en vogue" style as it compliments the narrow baffles that manufacturers are embracing. I don't notice any lack of cohesiveness with the design per se (although I admittedly have very limited experience) but I think they definitely limit positioning options. My friend with the ST4's has them on either side of a large entertainment center forcing the side firing woofer to aim square at the cabinet. This can't be good, but what are you going to do? For this reason alone, I could see many potential suitors taking a pass.

[corwin99]

I've heard several side firing designs, mostly cheaper models, but the two that stand out in my mind the most (that i most recently heard) were an Audio Physic speaker of unknown model and a Provox speaker from China which was quite high-end as far as pricing was concerned for Chinese speakers.. I think the Provox was around $2000CAD.

At any rate, I found the Provox speaker (which had dual 8" side firing woofers) to have a lack of mechanical solidity when heavy bass hit... there was a muddiness to it and when i felt the cabinet when it was playing it vibrated much more than I thought it should I think it might be that the dual firing woofers movements were causing too much movement in the cabinets and the fact that the narrow side was perpendicular to the movement of the woofers may have worsened the problem. They were not very light speakers, but certainly not heavy.. i think they were around 60lbs. The audio physic's that i heard were substantially better in the bass region, but they were also much heavier... I was impressed by their performance.

I am running a pair of Gershman X-1/SW-1's that have a forward firing woofer that sounds great to my ears, while the trapezoidal shaped baffle helps the X-1's image better. Oddly, I feel than my Audio Note AN/K Spe's with their wide baffle disappear better than the X-1's, but do not image quite as well. First I want to say that I'm not the AN trooper than RGA is, in fact, I bought the Audio Notes for fun a little while ago to prove that they sucked.. I mean, speakers that look like that surely couldn't sound good, could they?

[nightflier]

Consider that a 200 Hz sound wave is instantaneously over 5 feet in size, omni-directional, if emmited from a woofer. A 1 or 2 foot separation isn't going to be audible, we dont' have the ability to pinpoint the source to that a specific point in space, just a general area. By the time sound from a 3-way reaches you, the bass waves completely surround any higher frequency waves and are effectively integrated.

While I can understand that the seperation of 1-2 ft between the drivers is not that important, I think the direction that the driver is facing is very important. I can easily localize a 200Hz. sound wave, so unless the side-firing woofers go to a max of ~60Hz, there's going to be a problem. This has been my hesitation with side-firing speakers, because I place great importance on localising the music in front of me. While I don't have any such speakers in my home to audition, I am currently shopping around and found out some interesting things:

The DefTechs are completely awful in presenting an accurate stereo image. They may be great for HT, which it seems the reps are pushing them for, but for 2-channel look elsewhere. I also listened to the Polk LSi15 and 25's and was also underwhelmed with the stereo image that they presented. These towers could not even best a pair of standard Boston Acoustic speakers costing half as much. Yes, the high notes are very well reproduced, but the bass, particularly the integration between the midrange and the bass, isn't working for me. When the cello plays low in the quartet, it appears to come from both speakers equally, eventhough I know this recording so well and have heard it on so many speakers that it should appear exactly half way between the center and the left speaker. Now I don't know why this is (I'm no engineer), but I do know that this was not a problem on the higher end speakers in the other room: SF, Vienna, and a couple others we auditioned (ironically, the $3200K Martin Logans also fared badly, eventhough they were not side-firing).

Also Top's last post about where to place these speakers is crucial. Sure, at the dealer, they are expertly placed in a corner and the only furniture in the room is an easy chair in front of the speakers. Even the components are recessed into the wall. How many of us have that type of living room? We are more likely to have the speakers on each side of the component cabinet with coffee tables, endtables, and couches around the room. How does one place those Polks then?

Here's a fun experiment anyone can try. If you have a side-firing sub, set the cross-over to ~200Hz or whatever the highest setting is and place it side-firing next to your towers. Heck if you have a pair of subs, put one on each side of the speakers. Now if anyone thinks this sounds good, I would be very surprized.

[RGA]

This notion of poor integration when bass drivers are spaced far away is just wrong. I won't doubt that Hi-Fi Choice hears something they don't like, but they are attributing something they dislike to a phenomenon that is not the source of their gripe.

If properly setup, the simple fact is a 3-way speaker should deliver the sound to the listener from all three drivers (and port if applicable) at the same time (or at least in synch with the rest of the sound).

The bass frequencies are so large in size that their position on a baffle relative mid-range and tweeters is almost negligible for integration purposes. Consider that a 200 Hz sound wave is instantaneously over 5 feet in size, omni-directional, if emmited from a woofer. A 1 or 2 foot separation isn't going to be audible, we dont' have the ability to pinpoint the source to that a specific point in space, just a general area. By the time sound from a 3-way reaches you, the bass waves completely surround any higher frequency waves and are effectively integrated.

Hell, a lot of instruments have great physical separation between high frequency emitting parts and low frequency emitting parts. Are they not sufficiently integrated?

You're pretty much left with SPL and phase/timing. FR plots will dictate if the SPL is addressed, and phase is likewise looked after. The rest is just the quality of the sound the speaker delivers

I don't doubt that you and Hi-Fi choice dislike what you hear, I just think the cause is misplaced.

Having heard some incredible 3-ways (and some some line-arrays with over 20 drivers spread over 6 feet that would bring you to your knees weeping in joy), this driver separation argument doesn't fly with me. It's a myth.

oh Kex i agree fully -- I just reported whatthey THOUGHT was at issue -- i am not the least bit saying three ways are all bad -- I own one that does not have the problem I hear with the 3 speakers I mentions -- it may not be the problem of distance or being a three way -- but whatever it is I hear something of a hick-up -- but I have heard other hick-ups with many a two way speaker where the drivers are very close.

I think the jist is that three ways are far more difficult to do well and integration is very difficult. You can argue with UHF take on large speakers versus small -- I don;t agree with their conclusions simply because while the small standmount has some advantages -- it sacrifices a lot of bass and a loudness/impact dynamics and other things most of thetime to make any advantage merely a preference.

[RGA]

I started this thread to reactions of what people thought as far as the differences of the two designs because all own differrent designs that why their is over 12000 speakers on the market and i am not even counting China how could really be able to criticise aproven design all of the designs work if properly engineered.I would expect this kind comment from someone who owns a 3 way but not from a guy owns a 2 way and the last time he listened to sidefiring design was 5 years ago come on its speakers that sucked thats improved that would not even listen to that are decent now.Furthermore he showed me areview on his ANs from 1992 that was 13 years ago so what makes anyone think that he even listened to any of sidefiring designs 5 years ago buddy get your head out of books and go listen for real criticize when you get a 3 way or speaker that can go down to at least 40 heartz do you work for Hi-Fi choice WOW at least move up to a review from 2000 SORRY ABOUT THE SPELLING GUYS!

Well the AN review is old but then again unlike MOST companies the speakers are still being sold 15 year after that model -- good speaker design is good whether it was 1940 or now -- the cabinets are a 1940 design. Several have reviewed the AN E in 2001 and 2004 -- Hi-fi Choice reviewed the new AN E and they bought them - as did enjoythemusic's chief editor. Constantine Soo -- if you even bothered to read the link -- I know there are lots of words but he covers most of the bases to his credit is 2001 review. Speakers do not become crap because they are a year old like the marketing departments want to infer.

I currently own 3 way speakers -- Wharfedale's best loudspeaker before the company went belly-up in the early 1990's. I am going to explore getting them reconditioned - it's nowhere near as good as my J and with inflation includedand given the strong Cad dollar in the early 1990s probably costs more than the J in todays money. Just because I don't think they're anywhere near as good also doesn't mean I think they're junk. A honda hatchback may not be nearly as good as Ferrari but it doesn't mean the Hatchback is junk - but I know which I would rather own.

there maybe 12000 speakers and 12000 designs but not every one of them in my opinion is good -- slap all the most expensive drivers from Scanspeak and SEAS, ViFA Fostex and whoever else, into a Bose 901 and you still have a Bose 901 and it's still gonna be rubbish because the design while interesting and even works on some few recordings is still overall for most music IMO rubbish.

[RGA]

While I can understand that the seperation of 1-2 ft between the drivers is not that important, I think the direction that the driver is facing is very important. I can easily localize a 200Hz. sound wave, so unless the side-firing woofers go to a max of ~60Hz, there's going to be a problem. This has been my hesitation with side-firing speakers, because I place great importance on localising the music in front of me. While I don't have any such speakers in my home to audition, I am currently shopping around and found out some interesting things:

The DefTechs are completely awful in presenting an accurate stereo image. They may be great for HT, which it seems the reps are pushing them for, but for 2-channel look elsewhere. I also listened to the Polk LSi15 and 25's and was also underwhelmed with the stereo image that they presented. These towers could not even best a pair of standard Boston Acoustic speakers costing half as much. Yes, the high notes are very well reproduced, but the bass, particularly the integration between the midrange and the bass, isn't working for me. When the cello plays low in the quartet, it appears to come from both speakers equally, eventhough I know this recording so well and have heard it on so many speakers that it should appear exactly half way between the center and the left speaker. Now I don't know why this is (I'm no engineer), but I do know that this was not a problem on the higher end speakers in the other room: SF, Vienna, and a couple others we auditioned (ironically, the $3200K Martin Logans also fared badly, eventhough they were not side-firing).

Also Top's last post about where to place these speakers is crucial. Sure, at the dealer, they are expertly placed in a corner and the only furniture in the room is an easy chair in front of the speakers. Even the components are recessed into the wall. How many of us have that type of living room? We are more likely to have the speakers on each side of the component cabinet with coffee tables, endtables, and couches around the room. How does one place those Polks then?

Here's a fun experiment anyone can try. If you have a side-firing sub, set the cross-over to ~200Hz or whatever the highest setting is and place it side-firing next to your towers. Heck if you have a pair of subs, put one on each side of the speakers. Now if anyone thinks this sounds good, I would be very surprized.


Well you raise a real valid point -- not many people really have deidcated listening rooms to just 2 channel audio. I have a a computer desk a single bed carpeting, a second leather chair a 27 inch screen and a book casre at the back in a room that's the master bedroom of an apartment of about 12X15 -- and quite frankly the system should work in thsi room and it should work in the listening room at the dealer which is typically a couch or chair different dimensions (in my dealer's case considerably different dimensions in each listening room). If the speaker can't work because heaven forbid you own a tv, or can't work because you have hardwood floors or can;t work because your ceiling is 25 deet instead of 8 and you need to spend hundreds and hundreds on room treatments then IMO there is a problem. Now I say the word NEED here because every speaker can beneifit from various room fixes but my point is that some spekers even in well treated rooms sound lousy and some you simply cannot put a tv between the speakers to get it to sound good. I don't necessarily want a system that completely dictates how I live in the room.

I said in my first post that I don't see why a side firing woofer/subwoofer can't work - maybe some do I just have not heard it work to make believe that I was not listneing to a speaker with a side firing woofer. Positioning issue very possible -- but again if one can't put them in a normal average room and IMO can't put them in MOST all living rooms no matter what the weird design of your house is then they are not a speaker I want.

[kexodusc]

While I can understand that the seperation of 1-2 ft between the drivers is not that important, I think the direction that the driver is facing is very important. I can easily localize a 200Hz. sound wave, so unless the side-firing woofers go to a max of ~60Hz, there's going to be a problem. This has been my hesitation with side-firing speakers, because I place great importance on localising the music in front of me. While I don't have any such speakers in my home to audition, I am currently shopping around and found out some interesting things:
Sorry, I was referring to the general statement about 3-ways, specifically front firing, and 2-way systems with a subwoofer. You are probably quite right as your example of a side firing woofer responsible for 200 Hz frequencies hints at. I could see a huge spl, and phase mismatch...if there was a way to have it so the sound arrived at your ears at the same time and level, it could be mitigated, but at that frequency I suspect it's difficult.

[T BOMB25]

Their are many front firing speakers that dont intergrate well and have problems in rooms infact if most people took a poll the 3 way front firing speakers will tally up alot more and not because its more of them how many times have and a friend of your set up a speaker hours or maybe even days trying to get it properly posioned and sometimes never totally getting rid of the problem even.its all work anyway you have to work to get properly intrgrated into your room and far as the Polk Lsi 15 its afine speaker im not saying its perfect but its very good when its set up right its the best speaker they have ever built aside from all the press behind the companies star studed existance.So all you guys list the speakers that you hated the absolute most and be honest and objective about and yes that includes you RGA so list them i would say up to three that just downright horrible that you just couldnt find anything about the way they sounded that you liked.We are gonna take alittle poll on this matter and then we can back on track and start discussing the differrences between the 2 designs.

[RGA]

Well here is where I do agree with you -- I have ehard speakers that are front firing 3 ways that also do not integrate and like i say i can say that about some 2 ways -- the B&W CDM 1NT is a speaker I like but one that I don't think is a cohesive sounding speaker. It's not in itself a deal breaker that something doesn't gel bang on - Subs do not gel bang on and yet many people are happy -- and it's probably harder to tell at low frequencies formsot people anyway than it is at 2khz.

The 705 does a better job than the CDM 1NT at integrating but I find the CDM 1NT and even the cheaper 602S3 more enjoyable to listen to and these actually have bigger frequency issues thant the 705 -- but frequency is not the whole game and IMO not even the most important factor in loudspeakers -- it is just this an opinion. I can not factually prove it I can only go by what I hear. And in actual fact I may be swayed by the massive price differential between the two which is perhaps why I have elevated the 602S3 a little more so and am being harder on the 705 because to me it's $1,000.00US too much.

As for three speakers I think suck -- well that's not hard to do - one can go to sears and pick out almost anything. If you want me to give you three speakers that get tons of great press are big names I can -- but that will just start a flame war. It's bad enough if you say LOTR was mediocre but attack some speakers and look out.

[T BOMB25]

You are absolutely right about the 602S3 I owned them for 6 months they have beguiling pressentation they can get a little excitable in the treble for all they offer they are one of the best deals the market.That was when i was in aspeaker frenzy in that 6 month time span i owned well let me take you through the list B&W 303,Kef Q1,Tannoy M2m,Monitor Bronze 2,3,Silver1,Wharfedale Diamond 8.3,8.4 Evo 20,40 Accoustc Energy Evo Agies 1 all in 6 months and took me up intil last year to start knowing exactly what kind of sound i really wanted i guess i was being to much of aaudiophile and not enough of a music listener but it did help to become a audiophile now im better at being a music listener but i will always challenge my listening skills i like alot of speakers for differrnt attributes but very few that i love accourse i have moved on to more upscale speakers now boy dont what kind of enjoyment you can get out of speakers in that price range well i still own my Diamond 8.1s their still here while others have moved in and out of my house.Yes they are still my babies!

[Peter_Klim]

So Raven since all of us have massed produced speakers what do you have?

Probably:

Apogee Scintilla 1ohm version
Krell KRC-2 Pre-AMP
Krell KSA-150 Power AMP
Audiolab 8000CD Transport
Audiolab 8000 DAC

VMPS RM30-M
Tact RCS 2.0AA
Ampzilla 2000 Monos
Rega Planet 2000 MKII

getting in a couple of days......

Unison Research Unico CD (fully balanced, 192khz, dual triode output)
Sphinx Project 18 power amp
Sphinx Project 2 MKII pre amp

Dealer for VMPS Audio, Ampzilla and R-T-F-S

;)

[RGA]

You are absolutely right about the 602S3 I owned them for 6 months they have beguiling pressentation they can get a little excitable in the treble for all they offer they are one of the best deals the market.That was when i was in aspeaker frenzy in that 6 month time span i owned well let me take you through the list B&W 303,Kef Q1,Tannoy M2m,Monitor Bronze 2,3,Silver1,Wharfedale Diamond 8.3,8.4 Evo 20,40 Accoustc Energy Evo Agies 1 all in 6 months and took me up intil last year to start knowing exactly what kind of sound i really wanted i guess i was being to much of aaudiophile and not enough of a music listener but it did help to become a audiophile now im better at being a music listener but i will always challenge my listening skills i like alot of speakers for differrnt attributes but very few that i love accourse i have moved on to more upscale speakers now boy dont what kind of enjoyment you can get out of speakers in that price range well i still own my Diamond 8.1s their still here while others have moved in and out of my house.Yes they are still my babies!

Well the Diamond is a fantastic speaker for this money so why get rid of them - I had a $225US B&W DM 302 which I regret trading --- it's better than the 303 IMO.

There are many different speakers and designs -- a fellow on AA once said that he would take a speaker that does a few things SOTA(State Of The Art) even if several other things were very poor OVER a speaker that does everything an 8 or 9 out of 10 but nothing SOTA. To me he prefes a specific trait speaker that is valued to the exclusion of all else. imaging and soundstage are talkied about endlessley the last few years and few speakers do this badly -- the DM 302 at $225.00 images and soundstages just fine thank you very much. The buuzz words have gotten in the way of the music reproduers -- IMO if you have truly great speakers imaging is the last thing you should notice. And IMO it's a function of the gear as much as the recording -- but I come at these terms from a what i perceive as a Unique perspective.