Question about 7.1 system

[N. Abstentia]

I've never really been interested in a 7.1 system until now that I'm builing my theater room and I'm thinking of building 7.1 capability in.

My question is, with a 7.1 setup, which set of surrounds are the MAIN surrounds..the sides or the rear? What I mean is..when I switch over to a 5.1 source, which ones will be the surrounds?

What I plan on doing is installing some inwalls for the side surrounds UNLESS they are the main surrounds.

[kexodusc]

The sides take over as the surrounds in 5.1. The 2 rears replace the rear speaker of 6.1 to get the "7.1" format. You know 7.1 isn't discrete (yet, wait until next year).
That said, IMO, the processing more than makes it worthwhile, especially in bigger rooms. I prefered it over the weird dipole/bipole sound I just didn't like.

For multi-channel music, I just wired the surrounds (as in SACD/DVD-A 5.1 surrounds) from my universal player's outs to the 2 "surround rear" channels. These are placed in the ideal ITU 5.1 setup in my system, with the side surrounds being on either side of me. It's an awesome compromise because the rear imaging is just as good as my front imaging (same speakers).

So basically for DVD-A/SACD, I have the correct, ITU setup, but for 6.1/7.1, my two rear speakers are wider apart than recommended...as I said, the imaging is so good on my speakers that I can pull this off. I don't think you'll have a problem going this route with your speakers either. This lets you enjoy multi-channel audio the right way.

Definitely worth considering if you have a medium or large size room, and might be anyway as HD-DVD and BluRay are about to hit the market.

[PAT.P]

I've never really been interested in a 7.1 system until now that I'm builing my theater room and I'm thinking of building 7.1 capability in.

My question is, with a 7.1 setup, which set of surrounds are the MAIN surrounds..the sides or the rear? What I mean is..when I switch over to a 5.1 source, which ones will be the surrounds?

What I plan on doing is installing some inwalls for the side surrounds UNLESS they are the main surrounds.
N.Abstential the surround side left,right are the main surround .The back surround are use only Dolby Digital EX and DTS-ES and only if the decoder is set to this.Pat.P

[N. Abstentia]

Thanks guys, that's just not what I wanted to hear :)

My rear speakers are Paradigm Reference 40's and IF I do the sides they will be some 'on the cheap' in-walls for like $300. I wouldn't mind that if the sides were just for ambience and not heavily used, but if they are the main surrounds I'd rather let the 40's do that.

I've got some thinking to do now, I'd hate NOT to go ahead with the side inwalls since it's a new construction and wish I had them later.

[kexodusc]

Guess you're going to have to buy some Studio 20's and wall mount those suckers! :D

[BRANDONH]

Thanks guys, that's just not what I wanted to hear :)

My rear speakers are Paradigm Reference 40's and IF I do the sides they will be some 'on the cheap' in-walls for like $300. I wouldn't mind that if the sides were just for ambience and not heavily used, but if they are the main surrounds I'd rather let the 40's do that.

I've got some thinking to do now, I'd hate NOT to go ahead with the side inwalls since it's a new construction and wish I had them later.

I hooked my 7.1 up this weekend.
Look for DVDs with Dolby EX. or DTS ES
Like Pat P said you will need to tell the receiver that the 2 back speakers are installed and set the receiver to 7.1.
Finding Nemo is a good EX.
I found that some DVDs say EX but the receiver does not always light up the rear speaker indicator but sound does still come from them.
Its really cool and you will be gald you hooked them up.

[EdwardGein]

To those who have hooked 7 speakers & have the space/logistics to do so, do you actually notice a difference in sound and if so do you prefer it? Again, as DVD's are recorded in 5.1 sound I don't quite understand what 7.1 sound will really receive.

[Geoffcin]

To those who have hooked 7 speakers & have the space/logistics to do so, do you actually notice a difference in sound and if so do you prefer it? Again, as DVD's are recorded in 5.1 sound I don't quite understand what 7.1 sound will really receive.

It's better for effects that have rear stage sounds. It can be quite unnerving though when someone whispers behind your head!

[kexodusc]

I'm with Geoffcin on this. 5.1 sounds great. I've had to go back to it 3 times now in the last 7 months from 7.1 for various reasons (upgrades, refinishes, etc). In my system, it's painfully obvious when you lose the definition and separation of the rear stage.
That said, a good 5.1 system and DVD can can mitigate some of the loss, and in smaller rooms I think the benefits would decrease.
I would consider the benefit almost as good as the addition of the first 2 surround speakers. The benefits are more than just "rear soundstage". It provides for different speaker setups to create a wider stage all around. In my case, I was able to move speakers to the sides, this result in improved imaging in the front hemisphere as well as more realistic panning experience in the rear hemisphere.

It can get darn expensive though, and I think I'd sooner have a good 5.1 than a mediocre 7.1, which should be considered for people buying their first systems on limited budgets. Take your time.

Dolby Pro-Logic II and DTS Neo: 6 do a good job of processing, as well as the Dolby Digital/DTS ES /EX formats. I always engage the processing on 5.1 signals, I have yet to find a case where I didn't prefer it.

It'd be nice DVD-A/SACD could likewise take advantage of this...maybe some future format?

[BRANDONH]

To those who have hooked 7 speakers & have the space/logistics to do so, do you actually notice a difference in sound and if so do you prefer it? Again, as DVD's are recorded in 5.1 sound I don't quite understand what 7.1 sound will really receive.

It gives you that in the middle of the action feeling.
I am glad I finally hooked mine up.
The link below has upcoming and previously released movies in Dolby EX
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/motion_picture/listing_opening.html

[GMichael]

I do like the sound of 7.1 over 5.1. I have switched back and forth many times to select what I like best and I always end up back at 7.1. I don't even try 5.1 anymore. It seems to enlarge the room's sweet spot which is helpful when I'm walking around the pool table.

[PAT.P]

I do like the sound of 7.1 over 5.1. I have switched back and forth many times to select what I like best and I always end up back at 7.1. I don't even try 5.1 anymore. It seems to enlarge the room's sweet spot which is helpful when I'm walking around the pool table.
G Michael Im still missing the backs for now but added 2 Paradigm Stylus cc that was using as bookshelf for Presence front. Still trying to see what I'll do for back(wife does'nt the couch push out) .For know Im using Dalhquist Special Effects speaker on the back wall.(these are connected to the surround speaker terminals)sound good but would really like to enjoy full effect of all channel.Pat.P

[GMichael]

They don't put out much volume durring most DVD's. Just enough to make you feel like you're in the center of the action. I doubt that you need anything expensive to achive that effect.

[PAT.P]

They don't put out much volume durring most DVD's. Just enough to make you feel like you're in the center of the action. I doubt that you need anything expensive to achive that effect.
Already fell like in the center ,cant put my Yamaha more than -10db and wont try everything on wall is either falling or moving.The painting all have to be straighting after party.When wife is upstair have to cut-off sub travel the walls and under bath (never knew she could swear like a old sailer)Pat.P

[GMichael]

I guess I'm lucky. My wife is from the Philippines. Once she gets upset enough to start swearing at me, I suddenly can't understand a word she's saying. But then she stares at me and gives me that look like I should know what she's saying. If looks could kill, I would have burst into flames hundreds of times by now.
-10db huh? Kinda loud, don't ya think? Like I should talk....
Time to start tightening things down.

[Woochifer]

The back surrounds are probably the least important speakers in your entire setup. The actual surround speakers are the L/R side surrounds. When you see references to the surround channels, those are the ones getting referred to. Keep in mind that most multichannel music gets mixed in 5.1 and assumes that the speakers will be mounted about 110 degrees offcenter. This is only slightly behind the listening position. See the diagram below for the various mounting configurations. If you're going to go with in-wall speakers for anything, the back surrounds are the best candidate.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/global/images/diagrams/dolby_digital_pro_logic2.jpg

Reference 5.1 placement. Dolby also suggests pointing the surrounds at one another and raising them about 2' above ear level if the system will be used for both movie soundtracks and multichannel music.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/images/dolby_pro_logic2x.jpg

Reference 7.1 speaker arrangement.

IMO, go with the 7.1 arrangement only if you got sufficient space behind the listening position. Most soundtracks are optimized for 5.1 with inconsistent results when playing back with the ES/EX decoder switched on. The number of movies mixed with either EX or 6.1 ES encoding remains limited (less than 0.1% of all DVD titles), so focus on getting an optimal 5.1 setup first before you start trying to squeeze a 7.1 setup into your room. If you have Paradigm Studio 40s up front, then you should look to either the Studio 20s or Studio ADPs for the surrounds, depending on if you prefer direct firing or dipolar. For the back surrounds, go with the Studio 20s for the best possible match. In-walls might work, but they will not give you nearly as precise a voice match.

[PAT.P]

Woochifer Great diagram never knew I was going to go 7.1 and I already wire for back surround when I was using 5.1 format .Now Im going to removed these speakers to install on left and right wall ( wife is going to kill me) .The problem on left side there a full size window and my speakers are on wall special effect speaker .Pat.P

[Geoffcin]

While the TOTAL number of movies recorded in Dolby EX is small, nearly ALL of the new movies coming out now use either Dolby EX, or DTS ES. Also ALL of the music DVD's are recorded this way. It just makes sense.

I agree Studio 20's would be nice for rear surrounds, it's going to be an awful lot of speaker doing nothing back there for most of the time. Voice matching for these rear speakers is not nearly as critical as it would be for the side surrounds, and MUCH, MUCH less than the front three.

The side surrounds still do much more of the work than the rears for 7.1 surround sound. If you like multichannel music it's imperative to get a side surround to match your fronts. Also, they HAVE to be front firing, or at least switchable to that configuration.

The rears? Well, I've spent some time closely listening to mine, and for mostly all of the time they are quiescent. Only in intense action, or for special effects do they come into play. At these times your not going to be noticing how well they "voice match" the mains, Your more likely going to be ducking as bullets whizz across the room , or a Battle Cruiser flies overhead!

[kexodusc]

While the TOTAL number of movies recorded in Dolby EX is small, nearly ALL of the new movies coming out now use either Dolby EX, or DTS ES. Also ALL of the music DVD's are recorded this way. It just makes sense.

I really had no idea that the majority of new releases are releases in Dolby EX, or DTS ES, likewise with music DVD's. If this is true it's very encouraging. You haven't stumbled across any links in your journeys with any more info on this have you? I tried just the other day googling for a bit unsuccessfully, but I'm leaning towards agreeing with you. I've bought 9 movies in 2005, all of them have either EX or ES on them. A few years back it was rare.

I haven't seen any Music DVD's with the DTS ES or Dolby EX yet though, with the exception of some DVD-Audio's from the DTS label...can you recommend any good ones?

[GMichael]

Here is a good link to find what music is available in ES or EX. Here are the results for music using "DTS" as the search. I also got a lot of hits in the DVD section using "live" as the search. Play around with it. You'll find plenty.

http://www.buy.com/retail/searchresults.asp?search_store=6&querytype=music&qu=dts&loc=109&dclksa=1

[Geoffcin]

I really had no idea that the majority of new releases are releases in Dolby EX, or DTS ES, likewise with music DVD's. If this is true it's very encouraging. You haven't stumbled across any links in your journeys with any more info on this have you? I tried just the other day googling for a bit unsuccessfully, but I'm leaning towards agreeing with you. I've bought 9 movies in 2005, all of them have either EX or ES on them. A few years back it was rare.

I haven't seen any Music DVD's with the DTS ES or Dolby EX yet though, with the exception of some DVD-Audio's from the DTS label...can you recommend any good ones?

Sarah McLaughlin Afterglow Live doesn't say Dolby EX on it, only Dolby Digital. But, when I play it the Dolby EX decoder kicks in, and it's gotta be reading something or it woudn't engage.

Some of the music DVDs I have that are DTS are Santana Supernatural Live DTS-ES, Peter Gabriel Growing Up live DTS-ES, Music for Montserrat DTS-ES, Sarah McLachlan Storytellers DTS-ES, and The Eagles Hell Freezes Over DTS-ES. Most of them do not say DTS-ES, but with my receiver you can't engage DTS-ES unless it read a DTS-ES signal, and it does engage!

[Geoffcin]

Here's a list that somebody has compiled as of May 9th, 2001. As with all lists it's obsolete by the time it's published, but there's some good stuff on there.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19190&highlight=dtses

Probably hundreds more by now.

[Quagmire]

The back surrounds are probably the least important speakers in your entire setup. The actual surround speakers are the L/R side surrounds. When you see references to the surround channels, those are the ones getting referred to. Keep in mind that most multichannel music gets mixed in 5.1 and assumes that the speakers will be mounted about 110 degrees offcenter. This is only slightly behind the listening position. See the diagram below for the various mounting configurations. If you're going to go with in-wall speakers for anything, the back surrounds are the best candidate.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/global/images/diagrams/dolby_digital_pro_logic2.jpg

Reference 5.1 placement. Dolby also suggests pointing the surrounds at one another and raising them about 2' above ear level if the system will be used for both movie soundtracks and multichannel music.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/images/dolby_pro_logic2x.jpg

Reference 7.1 speaker arrangement.

IMO, go with the 7.1 arrangement only if you got sufficient space behind the listening position. Most soundtracks are optimized for 5.1 with inconsistent results when playing back with the ES/EX decoder switched on. The number of movies mixed with either EX or 6.1 ES encoding remains limited (less than 0.1% of all DVD titles), so focus on getting an optimal 5.1 setup first before you start trying to squeeze a 7.1 setup into your room. If you have Paradigm Studio 40s up front, then you should look to either the Studio 20s or Studio ADPs for the surrounds, depending on if you prefer direct firing or dipolar. For the back surrounds, go with the Studio 20s for the best possible match. In-walls might work, but they will not give you nearly as precise a voice match.
Woochifer,
Great diagrams. I've recently upgraded my system to a 7.1 setup and have been playing around with speaker placements ever since. I don't really know how the added effect of a 7.1 system is suppose to sound so it is hard for me to judge if I'm on the right track or way off of the mark. Even with DD-EX and DTS-ES material I am surprised that I don't really notice a lot of discrete events going on behind me; most of the time it seems like the back surround information is just blended in with the surround information which does create a more enveloping effect, but as I said, I'm not sure if this is how things are suppose to sound. I have theorized that this "blended sound" is probably a good thing; that I shouldn't be constantly made "aware" of the presense of the back surround speakers during movie playback, but I've also been concerned that I'm really not getting the most out of these speakers due to placement weaknesses.

I noticed that in the 7.1 diagram you provided, the R/L Surrounds (side wall speakers) are pushed forward a bit, closer to the 90 degree mark. Do you know if this is preferred, recommended, etc...? I had thought about doing this, but was afraid it would degrade the sound of 5.1 material too much, creating a "stereo in the head" effect due to the surround speakers firing directly in line with the ears. Do you know if this effect is negated or lessened by a 7.1 setup? I am assuming the idea of pushing the surround speakers forward is to create better seperation (physical seperation) between the surround speakers and the back surround speakers. To your knowledge, is there a "minimum" distance or angular degree that the back surrounds speakers should be kept from the side surround speakers? Is there an optimal distance which one should try to create between these speakers? Any thoughts/advice on this would be appreciated.

Q

[BRANDONH]

I really had no idea that the majority of new releases are releases in Dolby EX, or DTS ES, likewise with music DVD's. If this is true it's very encouraging. You haven't stumbled across any links in your journeys with any more info on this have you? I tried just the other day googling for a bit unsuccessfully, but I'm leaning towards agreeing with you. I've bought 9 movies in 2005, all of them have either EX or ES on them. A few years back it was rare.

I haven't seen any Music DVD's with the DTS ES or Dolby EX yet though, with the exception of some DVD-Audio's from the DTS label...can you recommend any good ones?

Dolby EX link

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/motion_picture/listing_opening.html
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/motion_picture/listing_upcoming.html
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/motion_picture/listing_previously.html