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oddeoowphil38
06-14-2005, 05:15 PM
Hello there people. Could anybody explain to me what (DIN) means? For example, Paradigm lists the Studio 20's as having low frequency extension down to 36 Hz but has (DIN) next to it. What exactly does that mean? Just curious. Feel free to chime in people. Thank you for your time.
Phil

mixadude
06-14-2005, 05:33 PM
<TABLE id=AutoNumber1 style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" borderColor=#999999 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=600 border=1><TBODY><TR class=bgheader><TD vAlign=top align=left>DIN </TD></TR><TR class=text><TD>Deutsche Industrie Norme. A German based standardization system, adopted by other countries as well. The DIN standard connectors for example, are very popular on video and audio equipment. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Not sure what their criteria for measurement is axactly, but those specs are refering to that standard, similar to IHF, or RIAA, etc.

Woochifer
06-14-2005, 05:44 PM
The DIN 45 500 spec is a frequency response measurement that accounts for how the room gain will affect the sound. It's a more generous standard that's not used very often, and Paradigm only uses it to estimate the in-room bass extension. Otherwise, Paradigm's frequency response specs (and those for most other honest speaker companies) get measured inside an anecholic chamber, which eliminates any echo, room reflections, and boundary effects.

The frequency extension spec that Paradigm quotes represents an estimate of what a speaker might extend down to in a "typical" room, where you do have boundary effects that boost and reinforce the lower frequencies. It's not the most valid spec because it will vary from room to room. My Studio 40s have an anecholic frequency response of 59 Hz - 22 kHz (+- 2 db), and the DIN 45 500 spec goes down to 34 Hz.

Before you say that 59 Hz equates to weak bass response, keep in mind that a +- 2 db deviation on the frequency response is more demanding than the +-3 db tolerances that you typically see on frequency response specs. Also, an anecholic measurement does not account for the room effects precisely because they vary so much, yet the effect on the bass can be pronounced. In my room, I've measured the Studio 40s down to 35 Hz, and in another room it did not go below 40 Hz, so obviously the room acoustics play a huge role in determining the actual amount of bass that you hear and it varies from room to room.

mixadude
06-14-2005, 06:13 PM
Thanks Woochifer, learn something everyday!

oddeoowphil38
06-14-2005, 06:42 PM
The DIN 45 500 spec is a frequency response measurement that accounts for how the room gain will affect the sound. It's a more generous standard that's not used very often, and Paradigm only uses it to estimate the in-room bass extension. Otherwise, Paradigm's frequency response specs (and those for most other honest speaker companies) get measured inside an anecholic chamber, which eliminates any echo, room reflections, and boundary effects.

The frequency extension spec that Paradigm quotes represents an estimate of what a speaker might extend down to in a "typical" room, where you do have boundary effects that boost and reinforce the lower frequencies. It's not the most valid spec because it will vary from room to room. My Studio 40s have an anecholic frequency response of 59 Hz - 22 kHz (+- 2 db), and the DIN 45 500 spec goes down to 34 Hz.

Before you say that 59 Hz equates to weak bass response, keep in mind that a +- 2 db deviation on the frequency response is more demanding than the +-3 db tolerances that you typically see on frequency response specs. Also, an anecholic measurement does not account for the room effects precisely because they vary so much, yet the effect on the bass can be pronounced. In my room, I've measured the Studio 40s down to 35 Hz, and in another room it did not go below 40 Hz, so obviously the room acoustics play a huge role in determining the actual amount of bass that you hear and it varies from room to room.
Yeah thanks woocifer. Your reply is very informative.

Pat D
06-15-2005, 03:47 AM
The DIN 45 500 spec is a frequency response measurement that accounts for how the room gain will affect the sound. It's a more generous standard that's not used very often, and Paradigm only uses it to estimate the in-room bass extension. Otherwise, Paradigm's frequency response specs (and those for most other honest speaker companies) get measured inside an anecholic chamber, which eliminates any echo, room reflections, and boundary effects.

The frequency extension spec that Paradigm quotes represents an estimate of what a speaker might extend down to in a "typical" room, where you do have boundary effects that boost and reinforce the lower frequencies. It's not the most valid spec because it will vary from room to room. My Studio 40s have an anecholic frequency response of 59 Hz - 22 kHz (+- 2 db), and the DIN 45 500 spec goes down to 34 Hz.

Before you say that 59 Hz equates to weak bass response, keep in mind that a +- 2 db deviation on the frequency response is more demanding than the +-3 db tolerances that you typically see on frequency response specs. Also, an anecholic measurement does not account for the room effects precisely because they vary so much, yet the effect on the bass can be pronounced. In my room, I've measured the Studio 40s down to 35 Hz, and in another room it did not go below 40 Hz, so obviously the room acoustics play a huge role in determining the actual amount of bass that you hear and it varies from room to room.
I wrote one E-magazine some time ago to try to find out just what the DIN 45 500 spec means but I've never seen the reply.

There are apparently different ways of estimating the bass extension in a typical room. I think it is important to realize that the bass response of most speakers does not simply disappear below the -3 dB point! Room reinforcement is important. If a dealer has a large showroom, then you will probably get deeper useful bass at home. Some time ago, we had the Paradigm Studio 40, v. 2, in our home for a trial and they did very well on the low notes in Saint Saens' Organ Symphony and 16 foot organ pedals in other organ recordings. That's a 32 Hz fundamental.

I notice that the B & W site gives a -6 dB figure in addition to the regular frequency response spec.

PSB simply gives a -10 dB point for low frequency cut-off, which is pretty much what I came to many years ago after reading the reviews in the old High Fidelity magazine and auditioning a number of speakers. I find it useful for comparisons, especially when it's an independent measurement in a review. Nevertheless, I have no reason to doubt that speakers from companies such as B & W, Kef, Quad, PSB, and Paradigm will perform pretty much as claimed. Here is the link to the PSB Stratus specs:

http://www.psbspeakers.com/s/StratusSpecs.html

I know some people consider any spec that doesn't tell them exactly what the speaker will do at home to be totally useless because it won't tell them what it will do in their room. I take it such people have unlimited time to audition speakers and try them out at home. Of course the results will vary with different rooms, but if you need low bass response, then a speaker that doesn't produce it can't supply it in your room, either. I have found the -10 dB point to be a useful basis for comparison. One can't always get the figure but one can determine it by looking at the FR curves provided in reviews.

Knowing something about the bass response in a room can be useful. I know one fellow that worked in an audio store who liked the old Paradigm Export Monitors very much, thought the the mids and highs were great, but was afraid they really didn't have much bass--because he had only heard them in the store. When he took them home he was quite stunned by the quantity of bass. Same with my subwoofer. In the store, I could feel the below 20 Hz bass but it was down in level--clean, but rather subdued. I knew it would do better at home, and it works just fine here.

kexodusc
06-15-2005, 04:48 AM
The DIN 45 500 equates, as Woochifer mentioned, to reasonable room gain. It's a hard spec to judge by, but at the same time, I think it tells you alot about the speakers potential for bass extension.

Depending on who you ask, it equates to roughly the -9 or -10 dB point of bass roll-off. Room gain brings it back up to the -3 dB range in the "typical room" that this standard assumes. I would take this spec with a grain of salt for frequencies above 40 Hz, room gain gets pretty unpredictable. My Studio 40's in my room lost bass really fast below about 39 Hz, if memory serves. That's not too far off from Wooch's experience.
At the same time, my sub has an in room -3dB point at 19 Hz despite a predicted -3dB point around 33 Hz in an anechoic chamber.

This is just another quirk in the funny world of speaker measurements. FR measurements from manufacturers are a funny thing anyway. The plots you'll see often are taken with 2 speakers, farfield, using smoothing techniques, there doesn't appear to be an equal standard from company to company, or even reviewer to reviewer. This will make the plot look much more pleasing to the eye, but at the same time isn't really cheating because most of us listen to 2 speakers at once, at more than 1 meter away.
In the end, you should always double check any measurements you see with your own ears.

Woochifer
06-15-2005, 10:07 AM
PSB simply gives a -10 dB point for low frequency cut-off, which is pretty much what I came to many years ago after reading the reviews in the old High Fidelity magazine and auditioning a number of speakers. I find it useful for comparisons, especially when it's an independent measurement in a review. Nevertheless, I have no reason to doubt that speakers from companies such as B & W, Kef, Quad, PSB, and Paradigm will perform pretty much as claimed. Here is the link to the PSB Stratus specs:

http://www.psbspeakers.com/s/StratusSpecs.html

I know some people consider any spec that doesn't tell them exactly what the speaker will do at home to be totally useless because it won't tell them what it will do in their room. I take it such people have unlimited time to audition speakers and try them out at home. Of course the results will vary with different rooms, but if you need low bass response, then a speaker that doesn't produce it can't supply it in your room, either. I have found the -10 dB point to be a useful basis for comparison. One can't always get the figure but one can determine it by looking at the FR curves provided in reviews.

One of Soundstage's Paradigm reviews mentioned the DIN 45 500 spec, and that compared to an anecholic measurement, it will typically equate to somewhere around the -10 db point for the low frequencies. Seems that PSB is quoting the same thing that Paradigm does, just using different terminology. (Paradigm's definition of "bass extension" equals the -3 db point using the DIN 45 500 spec) In a way, PSB's -10 db spec is more straight forward and consistent, but Paradigm's approach is probably better marketing, even if it's more convoluted and confusing to explain.

Anecholic measurements are a doubled edged sword. They are the most "honest" measurements because they don't rely on the room effects to create a desired frequency response curve. On the other hand, the room effects do affect the sound, and there's no single specification that can project what they will do in your room.