Supreme Court declines to hear lawsuit vs. the Beastie Boys

[MindGoneHaywire]

For 'Pass The Mic' on 1992's Check Your Head, the Beastie Boys paid for the right to a sample by a flute player, James Newton. Newton later sued, on the basis that the payment didn't cover the use of the sample. Courts ruled against him, and the Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

I've read elsewhere that the Beastie Boys chose to only pay for the licensing of samples that are within the Capitol/EMI catalogs--to avoid these sorts of lawsuits. And I seem to remember that they had commented at one point or another that making a record like Paul's Boutique would be prohibitively expensive due to the fees involved. It is possible that this decision may make it just a bit easier to put together that kind of ambitious smorgasbord, but then again, since licenses vary wildly in price, who knows?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050613/ap_en_mu/scotus_beastie_boys_1

[kexodusc]

It's a shame that lawsuits and greed are ruining the music business...not that this hasn't been the case for $50 years, but it just seems to be getting worse and worse. We use to only have the cases of the managers ripping off the artist/estate like Jimi Hendrix, or more recently Trent Reznor's multi-million dollar court victory.
Now the legal battles are inhibiting listeners from sharing music, being exposed to new artists, intimidating artists like the Beastie Boys from unleashing their full creative potential, and then there's the whole corporate top 40 thing I won't get into.

Whenever I get bummed about that this stuff I head out to some of the local dives and check out the 19 year old kids playing for beer, and the 45 year old vets playing for fun. God forbid we ever lose that.

[Resident Loser]

...It's a shame that lawsuits and greed are ruining the music business...

Heck, and all along I thought it was lack of talent...


...Now the legal battles are inhibiting listeners from sharing music...

...and all along I thought it was laws against "copyright infringement"...


...being exposed to new artists...

...ARTISTS!!! Ha-ha-a-a-a-a...thump...will you please stop that, you're killing me...


...artists like the Beastie Boys from unleashing their full creative potential...

...that's one he!! of a chain of oxymorons you've got there!...sampling=creativity??? I'm thinkin' the guy whose stuff is sampled/stolen is the creative one...but then, I look at it from a musician's standpoint...

jimHJJ(..huff...huff...hu-f-f-f...let me catch my breath...)

[kexodusc]

Heck, and all along I thought it was lack of talent...
Lots of talent out there, unfortunately you have to search hard to find it. The best music is rarely the most accessible these days.





...and all along I thought it was laws against "copyright infringement"...
Well I'm glad I could enlighten you. I guess you've never shared music, becoming exposed to a new artist, and consequently purchased their music. Too bad. I have.



...ARTISTS!!! Ha-ha-a-a-a-a...thump...will you please stop that, you're killing me...
Well, we certainly can't all be fantastic comedians



...that's one he!! of a chain of oxymorons you've got there!...sampling=creativity??? I'm thinkin' the guy whose stuff is sampled/stolen is the creative one...but then, I look at it from a musician's standpoint...
That's something, I look at it from a musician's standpoint too. Funny thing is your opinion is no more valid than mine.
I'm disappointed that you can only appreciate the original piece. Lucky for you, most inventors don't begrudge those who concoct new ideas for old things.

Kexodusc(...now if we could just get old things to appreciate new ideas...)

[Resident Loser]

...I saw no "wine"...BTW, the potential for humor in using a homophone is using the correct one in print..."would you like some cheese with that whine" that's funny...yours? not so much...

Every time I heard any thing even bordering on interesting from some of the "talent out there"...they've turned out to be a "one trick pony"...mediocre at best...


...I guess you've never shared music, becoming exposed to a new artist, and consequently purchased their music...

No, they only thing I have copied have been LPs(now also CDs) to cassettes for my own use in my vehicle...music(pre-CD) used to be cheap enough to buy it first and ask questions later...


...Lots of talent out there, unfortunately you have to search hard to find it. The best music is rarely the most accessible these days...

Hardly worth the effort IMO...I'm more interested in the previously ignored genres contemporary with the popular music that I DID listen to...


...That's something, I look at it from a musician's standpoint too. Funny thing is your opinion is no more valid than mine...

Maybe it's not a "musicians standpoint" after all and simply a moral one...go figure...


...I'm disappointed that you can only appreciate the original piece...

Never said that, did I? I said this; "I'm thinkin' the guy whose stuff is sampled/stolen is the creative one..." everything else is simply an "also ran", a "wannabe"...


Lucky for you, most inventors don't begrudge those who concoct new ideas for old things.

How could they, most of 'em are probably dead...or the patent's expired. As the saying goes about "...build a better mousetrap..."...I'm still waiting, music, mousetraps, whatever...

jimHJJ(...now if we could get some new ideas worthy of appreciation...)






.

[kexodusc]

...I saw no "wine"...BTW, the potential for humor in using a homophone is using the correct one in print..."would you like some cheese with that whine" that's funny...yours? not so much...
Ahh, the ol' "point-out-the-spelling-error" manouvre - bravo, Jim, bravo. When your use of the english language is immaculate, come back and see me. You got the point, unfortunately you saw fit to reply with the above.



Every time I heard any thing even bordering on interesting from some of the "talent out there"...they've turned out to be a "one trick pony"...mediocre at best...
Really, EVERY time? How many new artists have you listened to? What insulting things have you to say to the rest of us simpletons who continue to find excellent new music?

Perhaps you could tell us then, what year did good music die? Should I be punished for heresey when I enjoy new music?


music(pre-CD) used to be cheap enough to buy it first and ask questions later...
...maybe, and then there are those who would argue asking questions first is a far superior method...waste not, want not.




Hardly worth the effort IMO...I'm more interested in the previously ignored genres contemporary with the popular music that I DID listen to...
Still, you'd never really know until ya tried, would ya? Better to just to complain on the internet.



Maybe it's not a "musicians standpoint" after all and simply a moral one...go figure...
Interesting premise. Tell me, as a musician have you ever performed another artist's song? Have you ever performed it in the presence of others? Did you compensate the composer? Where do you draw that moral line? And who appointed you the authority to judge?
Is it also immoral to use 5/4 time? I didn't create it. I wasn't the first...guess I'm stealin' again...



Never said that, did I? You didn't have to, you make yourself quite clear with the following:


I said this; "I'm thinkin' the guy whose stuff is sampled/stolen is the creative one..." everything else is simply an "also ran", a "wannabe"...

Now, on one hand you deny that you "only appreciate the original piece", and then follow up with describing subsequent uses as "also ran" and "wannabe"...
Do you argue with yourself often? Who wins?


How could they, most of 'em are probably dead...or the patent's expired. Oh, but if they were here they'd be most upset?



As the saying goes about "...build a better mousetrap..."...I'm still waiting, music, mousetraps, whatever..

jimHJJ(...now if we could get some new ideas worthy of appreciation...) [/QUOTE]

If after waiting this long you are unable to find new ideas worthy of appreciation perhaps you could do us all a favor and wait in solitude... after all, if what you say is true, we're quite capable of arriving at that conclusion ourselves...the fact that we haven't should tell you something (be nice, jim). ;)

kexodusc(...still awaiting the lawsuit)

[Stone]

...and all along I thought it was laws against "copyright infringement"...

Wow, if only it were that simple with no other factors and forces in play. What world are you living in?

[Resident Loser]

...no "wine" or "whine", I lament nothing...simply a strong statement of opinion on my part, so bravo yourself-o, and there is nothing "unfortunate" about my response, just an FYI moment, the information contained therein may come in handy when you reach adulthood...

Any "insult" you may derived from my post is on you and your interpretation of my words...again, simply a strongly worded, highly opinionated post re: the state of "pop" music..."simpleton" is YOUR word...if the shoe fits...

Music hasn't died, it may be coughing up blood in the form of clone after clone after clone who thinks they are clever, but it will never really die...it just gets boring and formulaic from time to time...

And don't go get all "green" on me, environmental issues have been around long before you were even thought of...bricks in the toilet tank, use of mass transit, composting, that sort of thing...anything else your particular generation might want to lay claim to?

Again, no complaint, no lament...simply MO as in IMHO...

Yep, we even had "fake" books...as a card-carrying member of Local 802 of the AFM in NYC(Basil Basile was the delegate as I recall), we had to fill out a playlist and the club owners needed to have a cabaret license and paid fees to ASCAP and BMI to cover any royalty issues...Any more questions?

I think using or changing any particular time signature is irrelevant to this discourse...Your point is?

How can I deny what I never said? Again I posted: "I'm thinkin' the guy whose stuff is sampled/stolen is the creative one..."you are responsible for any further embellishment.

I'm to wait in solitude?...hardly pal..."If ya can't take the heat..."or so the saying goes...

Sorry, I'm too lazy to continue supplying your quotes, so all you have are my responses...be a good fella' and match them up...to make it a bit less stressful for you, they do run in sequence...

jimHJJ(...see I AM being nice...)

[kexodusc]

...no "wine" or "whine", I lament nothing...simply a strong statement of opinion on my part, so bravo yourself-o, and there is nothing "unfortunate" about my response, just an FYI moment, the information contained therein may come in handy when you reach adulthood...

It must be hard to martyr yourself to comedy, especially when you're so bad it...Puh-lease..."may come in handy when you reach adulthood". Did you think that one up all by yourself. Let me guess that's just you being friendly, no insult implied right? :rolleyes:



Any "insult" you may derived from my post is on you and your interpretation of my words...again, simply a strongly worded, highly opinionated post re: the state of "pop" music..."simpleton" is YOUR word...if the shoe fits...
What size feet do you have Jim?



Music hasn't died, it may be coughing up blood in the form of clone after clone after clone who thinks they are clever, but it will never really die...it just gets boring and formulaic from time to time...
It also reaches new heights, I encourage you to abandon your prejudices and give it another chance...or listen to the same ol' stuff - but don't complain to me about boring and formulaic



And don't go get all "green" on me, environmental issues have been around long before you were even thought of...bricks in the toilet tank, use of mass transit, composting, that sort of thing...anything else your particular generation might want to lay claim to?

C'mon jim, I'm disappointed in you. I didn't think I'd have to hold your hand through this, but...I'm not being green about anything...Just prudent. You have enjoyed buying cheap music, hoping it good, because if it wasn't, eh, it's only a few bucks....I didn't...so "waste not, want not" refered to cash, not the environment...

Understand, or would you like me to stop the world so you can catch up?


Again, no complaint, no lament...simply MO as in IMHO...
If it walks like a duck...okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...but must you always be so negative, cheer up guy!



I think using or changing any particular time signature is irrelevant to this discourse...Your point is? Your inability to grasp this speaks volumes about your limited view on what constitutes "copyright infringement".


How can I deny what I never said? Again I posted: "I'm thinkin' the guy whose stuff is sampled/stolen is the creative one..."you are responsible for any further embellishment.
I'm sorry, back in my day "also ran" and "wannabe" weren't compliments...perhaps you could elaborate so nobody mistakes you for being full of it.

You're usually sharper than this.
.

[nobody]

Yep...music gets boring and formulaic and then something new comes through and brushes away the cobwebs, most recently that has been hip hop, but cionsidering you feel sampling is a bunch of crap, you may not have noticed.

If you can't see any creativity in the origins of sampling, which came about when ghetto kids with no instruments took a couple turntables, hooked them up to a mixer and made new songs of the sounds they found on discarded records all while adding new lyrics presented in a totally new way than anything anyone had heard before, I don't really know what else to say.

Evolution of American Popular Music...

Jazz - Blues - Rock - Hip Hop

Get used to it. Until the next major musical innovation comes along.

If you define what you consider good music narrowly, it pretty well follows that there's not going to be a whole lot of variety and things are gonna get repetitive pretty quickly. But, if you are OK with new sounds and styles, things are still humming along nicely.

Electronic music has evolved nicely in recent times as well.

[MindGoneHaywire]

Heck, and all along I thought it was lack of talent...



...and all along I thought it was laws against "copyright infringement"...



...ARTISTS!!! Ha-ha-a-a-a-a...thump...will you please stop that, you're killing me...



...that's one he!! of a chain of oxymorons you've got there!...sampling=creativity??? I'm thinkin' the guy whose stuff is sampled/stolen is the creative one...but then, I look at it from a musician's standpoint...

jimHJJ(..huff...huff...hu-f-f-f...let me catch my breath...)


You'd think a former member of 802 (I'm one also) would understand what it means when I WROTE IN MY INITIAL POST THAT THE RIGHT TO SAMPLE THE RECORDING WAS PAID FOR. If you've ever performed a cover version, then you understand that this is a matter of using work created by someone else, which by definition is a case of, to one extent or another, a lack of creativity. In this case the performer in question wanted not only the fee paid for the right to sample his performance but for the underlying composition as well, which was rightfully & correctly denied by the courts. You have a problem with this?

As for yr prattle about not being interested in anything new, it's quite simple: don't listen. But don't presume to tell anyone that there's nothing worthwhile created anymore when yr opinion is based on so little information. If you care so little for the likes of Tom Waits or Nick Cave, that's yr affair. If you don't think someone like Bebel Gilberto is putting out worthwhile work, that's yr problem. If you don't think there was any merit to the 4 albums Johnny Cash put out in the last 10 years of his life, good for you. If you didn't like the last couple of Bob Dylan albums, more power to ya. And if you don't like anything by people who didn't put out records before some arbitrary date in the 1970s or 1980s, that's just wonderful for you also. But give me a break already with this nonsense.

And if you're the type of person who thinks there is no worth in sampling, then you obviously don't care about all the people who have discovered jazz recordings they would otherwise never have heard if not for people like the Beastie Boys sampling them on their records. And rock recordings, and world music recordings, and and and...if you think it's a bad thing that someone reads liner notes & then goes out & buys a jazz album because a rap act sampled it, then you are QUITE entitled to yr ridiculous opinion. Was Led Zeppelin thieving from Chess artists okay with you, then? At least the samplers respect the law enough to PAY for what they use up front.

[Resident Loser]

...I don't recall even saying anything to you or about what you posted...I took exception to a few things in kexodusc's post and responded to, or opinionated on, them...generally speaking, they weren't even directed toward him or his preference in music, per se, it was only MY OPINION of the current state of the "art"...

You may also want to go back and re-read the initial posts, paying particular attention to "copyright infringement" relative to the statement "...inhibiting listeners from sharing music..." can you say "apples and oranges" or at very least "out of context"...

Now if you want to cloud that basic premise with some unrelated twaddle re: Cash, Dylan or Page, have at it...but you'll be doin' it without me...

I have no set point for the "day the music died", suffice it to say, there is nothing that compells me to seek out current "pop" acts, when there is a wealth of material in other genres that were contemporaneous with, and/or pre-dated the "pop" that I did have an interest in.

IMO, the current crop consists of: clones, many of whom sound like an amalgam of the Sex Pistols and the Ramones, without any of the talent or humor. They shout or mumble to the incessant twang, twang, twang of a guitar and a drumbeat that would do a pile-driver proud...Commercially-viable cookie-cutter cr@pola of the boy band/diva ilk. The less said about that the better...Rap/hip-hop, which as I've said before is bad poetry with a side of sampling...Electronica...the world of sampling, sequencers and midi...simply digital dance music.

jimHJJ(...has anybody seen the bridge...)

[Resident Loser]

...sarcasm...yes! For someone who uses sophomoric humor, I would have thought you would be operating at least a tenth-grade level, spelling wise..."no insult implied right?" only as much as your "...w(h)ine and cheese..." bit implied...


...What size feet do you have Jim?...

Again, I never used the word "simpleton" and I never attacked your taste in music...I did, in fact, lambaste some of your statements, pure and simple. Is the shoe on the other foot?


...It also reaches new heights, I encourage you to abandon your prejudices and give it another chance...or listen to the same ol' stuff - but don't complain to me about boring and formulaic...

Some heights to one may seem mighty low to others...as stated previously, anytime I hear something with promise, it really goes nowhere in the end...stale, repetitive, formulaic...the first time you hear muted guitar strings slashed-at thru a wah-wah, wocka-ja-wocka style(which presages record scratching) you say "hey that's cool"...it gets old real quick, however. No, I don't listen to the SOS, I'm much more interested in classic jazz...it's all new, different and contains everything I look for in music: melody, harmony and musical talent.


...not the environment...

My mistake...given my current mindset, I thought you were referring to non-renewable resources...money, as long as I am gainfully employed, is not one of them IMO...


...If it walks like a duck...okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...but must you always be so negative, cheer up guy!...

I have no laments, there is a world of archived music to choose from...you think I'm negative? I'm a realist and I see that as a positive...BTW, I'm as happy as a clam!!!


...Your inability to grasp this speaks volumes about your limited view on what constitutes "copyright infringement"...

Well, ya' got me there...I assume you are referring to time signature(5/4)...all music is subject to interperetation or improvisation(some of it is even called for in the score)...but I fail to see how this relates to "copyright infringement'...enlighten me.


I'm sorry, back in my day "also ran" and "wannabe" weren't compliments...perhaps you could elaborate so nobody mistakes you for being full of it.

I never intended those terms to be compliments, you may wish to refer to my "wocka-ja-wocka" remarks a few paragraphs back...When the riff from "Walk This Way" appeared in the the rap, I thought it was interesting if a bit plagiaristic...when everybody else starts to do similar things, it's old news, day-old bread...how many reality shows do we really need? The answer, obviously: none.


...You're usually sharper than this...

Sorry I fall short of your idea of "cutting edge"...I'll have to get out my whetstone and give my barb a stroke or two...

jimHJJ(...pure kerosene or cutting oil?...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

Well, you took that part of kexodusc's post to mean one thing & I took it to mean another. 'Inhibiting listeners from sharing music' could mean only file-sharing, or it could also mean that the Beastie Boys listened to that flute piece & decided to pay a licensing fee to share it with others on their own composition. Meanwhile, if you want to get so huffy about 'copyright infringement,' then I'll ask you if you ever made as little as one cassette copy prior to 1992 of an LP you purchased. If you did, then you were actively engaged in copyright infringement yrself. You going to tell me you never did this once? If you can remember a time when pop music was allegedly 'better' than it is today, then surely you remember 'home taping is killing music.'

You're perfectly entitled to yr opinion on the current state of pop music. As were those who decried the state of pop music due to the Beatles, or Elvis, or Dylan. Or jazz. Those people were certainly entitled to their opinion as well...and you sound remarkably like all the rest of 'em. Now, I'd never compare rap to Dylan, most of it, anyway, but I sure remember Dylan being lambasted as 'bad poetry' just as you just described rap. Funny how that works. You remind me of the guy who used to post here as Skeptic who tells us that it's just a fact that the best musical minds who ever lived never bothered to waste their thoughts on jazz. Congratulations, you are brothers in arms. Hell, nobody should bother recording any new pop music anymore, right? What's the point? None of it's any good, sez you.

>the current crop consists of: clones, many of whom sound like an amalgam of the Sex Pistols and the Ramones, without any of the talent or humor

I must admit, you've got me here. I NEVER thought I'd see the day where someone would say that today's current crop consists of clones of the Ramones & Sex Pistols who operate without any of the TALENT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! How many YEARS have I spent hearing all about how THOSE bands had NO TALENT! Oh, the humanity...

>Now if you want to cloud that basic premise with some unrelated twaddle re: Cash, Dylan or Page, have at it...but you'll be doin' it without me...

Unrelated how? Page who? You sound an awful lot like someone who's all too willing to pass judgment on something you might not even know anything about. Have you even heard the recordings I was referring to? Perhaps you'd like to tell us next how Dylan's 'Love & Theft' pales in comparison to giants of the genre such as 'Self-Portrait,' how Neil Young's 'Greendale' couldn't possibly be as good as 'Re-Ac-Tor' because one's 20 years older than the other, how Bebel Gilberto simply isn't capable of making a rec as good as the ones her daddy put out...and that Waits guy, he sure dried up creatively, didn't he? There, there's a pile more 'twaddle' for you to ignore. Unless you'd like to tell me that you have even a passing knowledge with the recordings some of these people have put out over the past 5 years, so you can let us all know exactly why you seem to feel that they're so inferior to material that's been issued previously. Well, it'll always be newer than the stuff that came out previously, I'll give it that. Just can't be as good, then, can it?

Oh, I know. All these young lions are far too numerous & obscure to bother digging through. My bad.

[Resident Loser]

...um, er...Jimmy Page?...guitarist?...Led Zepplin?...ripping off the old bluesmen?!?!?!? Any of this ring a bell?

Copied LP to cassette...yep, said so a few posts that-away...for my own use...didn't share, give away or otherwise disseminate...

Beatles, like 'em now...preferred the Stones then...

Elvis, could take him or leave him...gee didn't he cover Big Momma Thornton's "Hound Dog"...

Jazz...like my raison d'etre...Coltrane, Davis, Parker, Reinhardt...pretty much all I listen to unless you count Bill Monroe and classical and chant and Native American flute music and zydeco and all the rest...Skeptic and me never really saw eye to eye...

Dylan's "Self Portrait" He!!, I go back to before he plugged-in...afterwards, howzabout Highway 61 Revisited or Blonde On Blonde...

Neil Young? Well, now it's a concept...Greendale...a book, a movie AND a CD...bad choice, never much of a Neil Young fan...didn't dislike him, a few decent tunes...according to my old friend Billy, he sounds like a turtle...his words not mine...always cracked me up tho'...

jimHJJ(...nice chatting...we'll have to do this again sometime...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

>um, er...Jimmy Page?...guitarist?...Led Zepplin?...ripping off the old bluesmen?!?!?!? Any of this ring a bell?

You wrote about 'copyright infringement' & then said that what I wrote about Page was 'unrelated.' How so? If you were on topic by running down the names I referenced, then I didn't know what Page you were talking about. See?

>Copied LP to cassette...yep, said so a few posts that-away...for my own use...didn't share, give away or otherwise disseminate...

100% illegal prior to 1992's AHRA. Admittedly not comparable with the massive scale of file-sharing, but still against the law. You were NOT allowed to make ANY copies even if you weren't sharing them. So you were an infringer of the copyrights of others, also. Unlike the Beastie Boys, who paid for the license to sample.

>Beatles, like 'em now...preferred the Stones then...Elvis, could take him or leave him...gee didn't he cover Big Momma Thornton's "Hound Dog"...

So? All completely worthless to anyone who found it all completely worthless. You mean you don't remember anyone lamenting the sad state of pop music at that time? That none of these people could hold a candle to the likes of Cole Porter or Gershwin? Which of course was just another example of someone decrying new pop music, as classical snobs along the lines of Skeptic did in the heyday of standards...because it wasn't on the same level with Beethoven or Bach, don't ya know...

Of course, so many of those complaining about Elvis & throwing in the ignorant remark that it was somehow related to 'talent' ignored the fact that the man possessed a four-octave vocal range.

>Jazz...like my raison d'etre...Coltrane, Davis, Parker, Reinhardt...pretty much all I listen to unless you count Bill Monroe and classical and chant and Native American flute music and zydeco and all the rest...

Well, to some, Coltrane weren't no Lester Young, didn't do much that was worth a damn that Coleman Hawkins hadn't already done, sure couldn't play like Sonny Rollins...and to others, the last several years of his career was an unintelligible mess. Davis? You mean to tell me you've never crossed swords with anyone who thinks he sucked because Clifford Brown was a better player? Parker? Man, he sure made a lot of people's ears bleed (figuratively) back in the day, because a lot of people sure couldn't make head or tail of what he was trying to do, & didn't care, either. Some even thought he should leave bop to Gillespie & Monk. And then there's the folks who couldn't care less about Reinhardt because Charlie Christian was the only worthwhile string-jerker who ever walked the planet.

In their day all of these people were criticized by people who said virtually the same thing you said about today's music. Of course, surely you can't compare the accomplishments of these people to the likes of Britney Spears, right? Well, that's not the argument I'm putting forth here. But if you tried to explain it to a teenaged Britney Spears fan, all you're going to get is that they don't like what you like, that they don't care, or, if they do, how dare you say that about modern music? They might even question how much modern music you've heard, as I have, with no response.

You might then point out that they know little of yesterday's music & therefore have no basis for comparison. Except that would probably apply to you to an extent, also. The bottom line is, it's just a matter of an elder telling a young'un that their music's just no damn good. Like when my father (a veteran of 802 for decades, by the way) was told by his music instructor that what Art Tatum did wasn't even music.

>Skeptic and me never really saw eye to eye...

Yeah, well, on another board, he actually admitted that he had put forth his opinion that 'Coltrane sucks' (on a Desert Island Disc thread in the Cables forum a couple of years ago) without ever actually having heard his music. Later he picked up A Love Supreme & put together a painstakingly technical review of this album. He hated it, naturally, looking for technical excellence in a recording whose virtues transcend such things. Recently he opined that it's just a big mess that exists merely as an ode to heroin. HAHAHAHAHA

But the point is that yr attitude is very similar to his in yr comments above. Maybe you don't see that, but it's there. And I wouldn't bother with any of this if it weren't. I always wonder why people who you'd think would know better keep repeating foolish things that were uttered by members of previous generations who simply couldn't accept that they assigned more value to things they were first exposed to at a younger age...which just happened to be a time when they were listening to older folks telling them that anything they liked was, well, worthless. Because the state of pop music is/was...

>Dylan's "Self Portrait" He!!, I go back to before he plugged-in...afterwards, howzabout Highway 61 Revisited or Blonde On Blonde...

If you were a member of 802 then you might know who Jonathan Schwartz was? Programmer of WNEW-AM, 1130? In putting forth his view on how the best music was never performed by the people who composed it, he remarked that when the songwriter became the performer, the music became progressively more adolescent...I guess you wouldn't count him as a Dylan fan. Nor Patti Smith, or Lou Reed, or any of the folks inspired by poets. Of course, Jonathan Schwartz knows that the current state of pop music is deplorable. After all, his father wrote "Dancing In The Dark." Interestingly, his brother is a reknowned ELECTRONICA artist! No, that's not a joke. Check out the Paul Schwartz Project, or the album Aria, in which he combined opera &...electronica. And no, it's NOT dance music.

There were those who thought Gil-Scott Heron was 'bad poetry,' too. Bob Thiele was not one of them. But since you like Miles, you must've LOVED his rap album, right?

[kexodusc]

Again, I never used the word "simpleton" and I never attacked your taste in music...I did, in fact, lambaste some of your statements, pure and simple. Well, you tried. You did make some pretty generalized statements about the state of music today - "lack of talent" "not worth the effort". Those are just wrong.

When it comes to pop music, you and I agree. I think we differ in that I don't judge the current state of music by the current state of American pop music. Big difference. You're judging the "art" by its worst. I refuse to do so.

I wonder if you were always like this. Surely at one point in your life there was "new" music that met your approval? Was it also "pop" music? I'm willing to bet most of your classic jazz never entered the "pop" mainstream. Most of mine sure didn't. But I managed to find it anyway. Took a bit of "effort". Ya know what, it was worth it.



Some heights to one may seem mighty low to others...as stated previously, anytime I hear something with promise, it really goes nowhere in the end...stale, repetitive, formulaic...the first time you hear muted guitar strings slashed-at thru a wah-wah, wocka-ja-wocka style(which presages record scratching) you say "hey that's cool"...it gets old real quick, however.
Then may I suggest you either aren't trying hard enough, or just not effectively? Maybe you need to expand your tastes, just a little.



No, I don't listen to the SOS, I'm much more interested in classic jazz...it's all new, different and contains everything I look for in music: melody, harmony and musical talent.
Well, I'm happy you at least have classic jazz, I'm sure we share a few common favorites.
Just curious, what was the last "new" music you were happy with?



I have no laments, there is a world of archived music to choose from...you think I'm negative?
I only have your words to go by...You've certainly done more complaining and insulting in this thread than made positive, constructive statements. I apologize if this is just a coincidence.


There's more music being made than ever before. I find it difficult to accept that absolutely none of it can meet your approval. Very difficult to be exposed to it all, especially when record companies are more interested in promoting copies of imitations rather than truly new creative music. On this you seem to agree. But you seem to object to consumers taking matters into their own hands, and using the internet (illegal downloading, oh the horror) to find new music they do like. Here's an opportunity for you to be constructive - I'm open to a better solution, perhaps you could suggest one?

If you can't, and are unwilling to make the effort, I fail to see why we should accept anything opinion you have on the current state of music. You are hardly an authority on the subject.

[Resident Loser]

...short(fat chance) and sweet(at least less confrontational sounding)...


...I wonder if you were always like this. Surely at one point in your life there was "new" music that met your approval?...

Hard to pinpoint an exact turning-point...prior to any transition, and after the usual suspects i.e. Hendrix, Cream, The Stones, Black Sabbath, et al, my main diet was Dylan, The Dead, The Band, Pink Floyd, Zappa, Elvis Costello, some Joe Jackson, lots of other bits and pieces ranging from the B52s to Devo...sometime in the mid 70s, I also began to seriously investigate classical, including opera. My collection of that genre has become more specifically guitar oriented, Segovia, Williams, Parkening...The DtoD market sprung up with the likes of Dave Grusin and Charlie Byrd. Some time thereafter, I happened upon country...actually a re-visit since I grew up listening to Hank Williams, Tex Ritter, Patsy Cline...enjoying performers like Randy Travis, Vern Gosdin, John Anderson and Lyle Lovett...somewhere early in this period(again hard to deliniate) "pop"(in the generic sense) held less and less interest...some exceptions: Squeeze, The Clash, early Springsteen, Talking Heads, The Traveling Wilburys...New Age disappointed quickly...then we do a Louisiana two-step to Cajun and Zydeco...Jazz began to show up around the perifery...always liked up-tempo stuff(sort of in the style of Van Morrisons' "Moondance"). Sprinkle in some older classical jazz("Davis' "Kind Of Blue" may be my fave) and that pretty well sums it all up...Throw in some Native American Flute music and tie it in a bow...

My most recent purchases were the LA Guitar Quartet's "Guitar Heroes", a compilation CD of various artists playing Hawiian Slack Guitar, Coltrane's "Blue Train", Miles Davis "Birth Of The Cool", Bill Frisell's "Gone, Just Like A Train", Allison Krauss and Union Station's "New Favorite...which was spawned by the soundtrack from "O, Brother Where Art Thou" which in turn caused the purchase a couple of compilations of the "old-timey" music as performed by original artists and one from Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys at the Grand Ol' Opry. My next purchase will be from a guitarist named Paul Galbraith, who plays a 10-string instrument and is very much in the classical vein, Bach partitas and such.

So as you can see, I have a varied taste and don't think I'm pigeon-holed into any specific musical coop...I think I'm fairly open-minded so, I'll make you a deal...make a list of what you think is exemplar of your definition of "excellent new music" and I will do my best to track them down and give them a fair shake...it may take some time to accomplish it, but I'll do my best.

Some help: don't bother to include Dave Matthews Band, Hootie And The Blowfish, Phish and Foo-Fighters or any of a similar bent...And since I work "in the 'hood" and am subjected to it in perpetuum, rap isn't high on the list either...sorry if that attitude ruffles any feathers...

jimHJJ(...as I've said I'll do my best...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

Don't have much time at the moment, but for starters:

Madeleine Peyroux--Careless Love
Bebel Gilberto--self-titled
Bob Dylan--Love & Theft
David Johansen & The Harry Smiths--self-titled

For something a little rock-i-er & a little older (20 years now), try a Replacements record such as Tim or Pleased To Meet Me. More recent "rock" stuff I'll get to later. In a way I do consider these 'new' in the sense that they never reached a wide audience, don't suffer from 80s overproduction, and still sound like fresh rock'n'roll records that are sort of in the same ballpark with records like London Calling, at least to people who haven't followed this genre all that closely over the past couple of decades. Speaking of London Calling, the last Joe Strummer record, Streetcore, was probably the best thing, I think, that he did after that rec, except for perhaps Sandanista! It's from 2003.

I'll follow up w/comments on these & other suggestions later tonight or tomorrow...and I thank you for this post. And I suspect there may be more than a few people here who may send a few, or more than a few, suggestions yr way as well.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

And I suspect there may be more than a few people here who may send a few, or more than a few, suggestions yr way as well.

I'll run a few up the flagpole and see if Resident Loser saluts.

Matthew Sweet could possibly restore one's fainth in power-pop, as could Ben Folds as well as The New Pornographers

Given the early Springsteen reference, one could try Steve Earle, any of the last five or six albums may be worth a try but especially, Train a Comin or I Feel Alright.

Wilco seems like something worth looking into, as does Songs: Ohia/Magnolia Electric Co.. And Celxico's, Feast of Wire, seems a no-brainer.

How about Ted Leo & The Pharmacists, specifically Tyranny of Distance, Gomez might have some appeal, as might Morphine, Liquid Skin, by the former, Yes from the latter. Kings of Leon too may be of interest.

Ben Harper is a likeable chap with a few nice albums to his credit.

I won't list Built to Spill, because you saifd Neil Young is not your cup of tea, but I bet Doug Martsch's, solo album might be hold some appeal.

If singer/songwriter stuff is of interest you could do worse than, Sufjan Steven, Iron & Wine, Papa M or Sun Kil Moon.

And finally, Richard Thompson, continues to write great songs and play some stinging guitar; Mock Tudor from a few years back is excellent.

I could add more, but I'll stop now.

[nobody]

I'll be a jerk and say recommending new stuff isn't really gonna help. We can recommend rock bands that have a wide appeal and he will find them derritive. We can recommend hip hop opr electronica, which stays away from being derritive, but he will say those genres aren't real music and therefore crap.

But, hey, he doesn't have to like new music. There is indeed giant archives of great stuff from the past to listen to...and iof that's what he prefers, who really cares. I just think it's the value statements that imply that his preferences are in some way objectively better than the preferences of others that gets people all hot and othered.

Although, I do have to think that David Johansen recording would be something that may appeal to someone digging through old music as the versions are quite faithful, Johansen is in fine voice and you are able to get a high fidelity recording done in a very authentic style. Sure old transcriptions from 78 are great, but it is nice to have a few quality recordings of old acoustic blues tunes.

And, hell maybe a couple others on them lists would ring some bells as well, I just don't see anything on there that's gonna change his view on modern music. Even the Johansen record is only gonna reinforce his belief that those old tunes are worlds better than newer stuff.

[Dusty Chalk]

Well said, nobody. "Don't force yourself", I always say.

Addiction (to new stuff) is for the few, the proud, the...uh...addicted.

[Resident Loser]

...I figure, what the hey, let's peruse the forum and see what the kids have to say...

So...I find there more than a few folks who are of the same mindset as myself...finding many newer bands, er...let's say "lacking", in any number of departments...also preferring older groups and not even considering rap/hip-hop...and here I thought of myself as the lone barnacle on the butt of the great white whale in the vast musical sea-scape.

Any which way, I also see made mention(more than once) of a group named "Porcupine Tree"...Do porcupines climb trees? Are there trees that feel like porcupines? An odd name that...sort of like "Moby Grape", just an odd juxtaposition of unrelated words is my guess. But I digress(as I oftimes do)...

So...I do a google and find their website...now here's an idea that works. Much like Neil Young's "Greendale", you can actually sample(no, no, no not like that potentially litigious type...more like the cheese-on-a-toothpick supermarket type) the material...Hey, kexodusc I think this is a great legal alternative to the copright infr...a...um..."file sharing" thing...

Let us progress...now heck, these guys actually sound like something..definitely not the SOS I've been exposed to recently...HOWEVER...and nobody you are quite right...here is my take on the snippets of songs I heard:

1. Deadwing...Grand Funk Railroad meets CSN...what's with the wispering bit?

2. Shallow...Led Zep meets Yes

3. Lazarus...pure pop for now people...

4. Halo...what's with all the vocal effects?

5. Arriving...Pink Floyd with harmonies...

6. Mellotron...Deep Purple meets Van Halen meets Yes

7. Open Car...Deep Purple meets Peter Gabriel

8. Something Beautiful...very Yes-y

9. Glass Arm...sort of ELO

10. So-called Friend...sort of Black Sabbath doing a Kashmir thing

11.Half Light...again, what's with all the vocal effects...vocalizers/harmonizers, band-pass limiters so it sounds like a phone conversation...a little bit goes a long way...

While it might not sound like it, I thought it was very nice and I did like the music and the harmonies, regardless of source ...It might even be something I might purchase...If I weren't familiar with the original bands and had no point of reference, I might think differently of it and be a bit more enthusiastic...but before you get on me for somehow condemning it outright for the music being derivative in nature, I realize that's the way it goes...one thing usually builds on something or things that precede it...I understand that...I would recommend it to anyone looking for a decent representation of an example of rock's evolution.

Just one other thing...coupla' questions...


We can recommend rock bands that have a wide appeal and he will find them derritive.

What is the basis for your insight into my perspective? Might you recognize the derivation factor involved? Do you find these groups derivative yourself?

jimHJJ(...just wunnerin"...)

[kexodusc]

Any which way, I also see made mention(more than once) of a group named "Porcupine Tree"...Do porcupines climb trees? Are there trees that feel like porcupines? An odd name that...sort of like "Moby Grape", just an odd juxtaposition of unrelated words is my guess. But I digress(as I oftimes do)...

1. Deadwing...Grand Funk Railroad meets CSN...what's with the wispering bit?

2. Shallow...Led Zep meets Yes

3. Lazarus...pure pop for now people...

4. Halo...what's with all the vocal effects?

5. Arriving...Pink Floyd with harmonies...

6. Mellotron...Deep Purple meets Van Halen meets Yes

7. Open Car...Deep Purple meets Peter Gabriel

8. Something Beautiful...very Yes-y

9. Glass Arm...sort of ELO

10. So-called Friend...sort of Black Sabbath doing a Kashmir thing

11.Half Light...again, what's with all the vocal effects...vocalizers/harmonizers, band-pass limiters so it sounds like a phone conversation...a little bit goes a long way...



Uh-oh.

[Resident Loser]

Uh-oh.

I did like it...there is just a generational "but" involved...

jimHJJ(...please elaborate...)

[Jim Clark]

What is the basis for your insight into my perspective?

jimHJJ(...just wunnerin"...)

That's a joke, right???

jc (it was a good one)

[kexodusc]

RL: Well, derivative it all may be, but, I'm not sure you could name one artist/group, jazz, classical, or otherwise that truly wasn't derivative - one in which we don't hear just a hint of somebody else? We could play that game forever (or at least until the beginning of time).

Matthew Sweet and Ben Folds were a few good pop rock recommendations...I would add Tori Amos to that (now there's one I really DON'T find too derivative at all, though the lyrics can be a bit much at times when they're just too honest).

I see you've already found Allison Krauss...derivitive or otherwise, she's not all that bad, and she knows how to make a great sounding record.

Porcupine Tree is one of my personal favs (and I suspect that of many others here)..."Deadwing" isn't their best work, but it's a solid effort......Can't believe you hear anything remotely Zeppelin OR Van Halen in them....LOL

Floyd, Gabriel, Yes, and ELO, well definitely, but, if you're like me, and dig those groups too, it's all good.

I'm all for groups using the internet to their advantage and allowing you to sample, but I have to confess (err, explain), that I didn't know Porcupine Tree existed (or dozens of others for that matter) until I received by mail some samples of their material (illegally shared). This compilation trading exercise is more common than you might think. Is it moral? Perhaps not. Do the ends justify the means???? IMO, sometimes they do. Judge me all you want. Lucky for me, I don't answer to you - I'm sure I'll get mine in the end...but in the meantime, life is good.

[kexodusc]

I did like it...there is just a generational "but" involved...

jimHJJ(...please elaborate...)

Sorry Jim, just some forum humour. Glad you enjoyed it.
Around here Porcupine Tree is highly regarded...I suspect there might be a few champing at the bit over your comments.
There's generally excellent studio work on most of their albums, I hope you didn't judge them on a computer! Their a refreshing approach to artsy/progressive/hard-rock.

[Resident Loser]

Can't believe you hear anything remotely Zeppelin OR Van Halen in them....

Since I'm not sure if your foolin' with me or not, I'll bite...

"Shallow" strikes me as being kin to "The Ocean" from "Houses Of The Holy" at least musically and in "Mellotron" I think I hear a little Eddie Van Halen-like guitar...

jimHJJ(...but that's OK I still liked it...)

[nobody]

What is the basis for your insight into my perspective? Might you recognize the derivation factor involved? Do you find these groups derivative yourself?

jimHJJ(...just wunnerin"...)


Well, yes and no really. Yes, in the sense that I think if you stick to rock music with any sort of definition narrow enough to be useful as a descriptor, and keep away from developments like hip hop and/or electronic music, you're talking about a genre that is fairly mature as far as modern popular music goes. Just as any time a new composer comes up or a new jazz player comes up...artists are generally building on what came before them. So, its really easy to play the derritive game by just calling bands out on their influences and chastising them for not coming up with something fresh and new out of a vacum...a standard that artists have never lived up to.

However, I tend to think some newer artists bring new things to the party, even if they are based on older groups. A good example for me would be the White Stripes. I've heard a ton of people call them a Led Zepplin rehash. But, personally, I think they bring way more to the party than just rehashing Zepplin. Sure, they share a love of old blues guitar licks, but there are so many surface level differences alone, 2 piece compard to four piece, way more stripped down production, punk influence, etc... that to call tehm a Zepplin rehash seems odd to me considering I can go and list probably as many if not more differences between them as anyone can similarities.

Thing is, if you're focused on the...oh they're all the same, nothing new here arguments... you're gonna focus on listening for those similarities and will tend to ignore the differences. Of course, the same problem works the other way too, and people can focus on a minute difference at the cost of so very much that sounds the same.