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jmracura
01-01-2004, 01:51 PM
Ok... this is my first post. I just bought a Denon 3803 receiver and some Energy Encore 6 surround speakers for a basic HT setup. I didn't buy any cables from the store because I didn't do any research on what I needed. Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I could get? I don't even know the difference between 12 and 16 gauge wire...

Thanks

skeptic
01-02-2004, 07:15 AM
The heavier the wire gage, the lower the number. In these cases, the number refers to American Wire Gage (AWG.) All of the physical dimensions and electrical properties can be found in electrical handbooks such as the National Electrical Code. You can undoubtedly easily find it all on one web site or another. Each gage number has a specific cross-sectional area associated with it, the larger the area, the lower the unit resistance. Therefore the lower number gage has a lower electrical resistance per foot. This means lower loss for a given length. (European manufactured wire may not have AWG numbers specified by the maker and would have to be crossreferenced or calculated for approximate American equivalents by coverting the number of square millimeters to square inches and looking it up on a table.) I personally use 16 gage wire from Home Depot in all of my sound systems. However, if you have 4 ohm speakers and a long run between your amplifier and speakers, you may want to use 12 gage. The cost difference for generic wire between 16 and 12 isn't that great. If you do calculate the resistance and voltage drop for a given length of wire, remember to double the number of feet from the table because you are using twin lead. They usually specify ohms per thousand feet of a single length. Unless you have very long lengths, the resistance will be a small fraction of an ohm and virtually insignificant compared to the speaker impedence. Therefore, the loss will be nill. Series inductance and shunt capacitance are determined by the geometry of the wire and insulation and by the dielectric constant of the insulation material. For all reasonable construction and lengths, these are insignificant as well compared to the load presented by virtually all loudspeakers and have insignificant effect on frequency response. Proponents of expensive wires will tell you that the improvement they offer cannot be measured by conventional methods. Apparantly they cannot be measured by unconventional methed either including "fair" listening tests since no one has ever succeeded in doing it.

jmracura
01-02-2004, 08:20 AM
Thank you so much "skeptic". That is a great amount of detail you provided. I have learned something new today which I can use going forward. Since I have a small living room, it looks like I will be just fine using the generic wire from HD that you spoke about. I will go out and buy some today.

Do you have the same opinion for the the interconnect cables (i.e. digital opitcal cable, component cables, etc.)

Thank you again.

Pat D
01-02-2004, 09:50 AM
I didn't buy any cables from the store because I didn't do any research on what I needed. Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I could get? I don't even know the difference between 12 and 16 gauge wire...

Thanks

LOL! What's to research? You don't need expensive wire for performance reasons, though psychologically it may feel better.

Roger Russell retired from McIntosh. His wire article contains a useful table. As he says, larger wire doesn't hurt, so some of us just get 12 gauge and forget it.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm

skeptic
01-02-2004, 11:16 AM
Here is a simple test you can try yourself to satisfy your curiousity that interconnects are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, get the siganal from point A to point B without causing any audible differences. Audiophiles who advocate the use of exotic cables hate this test because it is so simple and so easy to perform and understand. You can try this with any interconnect cable of any length or type. Connect the cables directly between the tape output and tape monitor input of your preamplifier (or integrated amplifier or receiver.) Listen to any source of music and switch between source and tape monitor. What you are doing is in effect putting the cables IN the signal circuit (monitor position) and then shunting them out (source position.) If you cannot hear any difference, the cables are performing their function perfectly. If you CAN hear a difference, then the change you hear in the monitor position of the switch is the change the cables are causing. In more than 40 years of experience with audio equipment, I have never heard any difference using inexpensive 3 foot cables, the kind they pack with a cassette deck, cd player or tuner.

Don't be fooled. Serious advocates of even the most exotic and expensive cables will agree that the differences they claim to hear in unscientific tests give improvements that are very subtle and difficult to hear. Serious audio engineers usually dismiss them entirely. Those who claim you will hear an astounding improvement usually have some financial or emotional motive behind their statements. Buyer beware.

E-Stat
01-03-2004, 09:10 PM
Generic cables are a good match for your receiver and speakers. High performance cables are only of use with high performance components. If / when you seek better, upgrade the major components first.


Here is a simple test you can try yourself ... Audiophiles who advocate the use of exotic cables hate this test because it is so simple and so easy to perform and understand.

That test is fine for those who use cables only in unity gain processor loops. Your simple test is like using purely resistive loads for evaluating amplifers.

Most folks who listen to music, however, listen to sources driving gain stages. Similarly, I've yet to find someone who enjoys listening to a pair of 8 ohm resistors. Surrogate tests that do not employ components in a manner in which they are commonly used are of little use for determining their performance capability.


rw

mtrycraft
01-03-2004, 11:12 PM
High performance cables are only of use with high performance components.

This is based on what? Certainly not credible evidence.


Most folks who listen to music, however, listen to sources driving gain stages.

You have taken a survey? And?



Similarly, I've yet to find someone who enjoys listening to a pair of 8 ohm resistors.

What a silly comment.


Surrogate tests that do not employ components in a manner in which they are commonly used are of little use for determining their performance capability.

More silly comments.

skeptic
01-04-2004, 06:18 AM
That test is fine for those who use cables only in unity gain processor loops. Your simple test is like using purely resistive loads for evaluating amplifers.

Most folks who listen to music, however, listen to sources driving gain stages. Similarly, I've yet to find someone who enjoys listening to a pair of 8 ohm resistors. Surrogate tests that do not employ components in a manner in which they are commonly used are of little use for determining their performance capability.
rw

I regret to say your facts are just plain WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

After the tape monitor loop comes a slew of gain stages including usually at least one voltage amplifier, the cathode or emitter follower output of the preamp, the pre driver and driver stages of the power amp, the phase splitter, and the output stage of the power amp. The cables are used in EXACTLY the same way in the test as they are used in real life, a low impedence source generating a signal and a high impedence load with gain. Go back to school.

E-Stat
01-04-2004, 08:30 AM
After the tape monitor loop...

Precisely. After the buffered processor loop. The cable is not part of a phono gain stage that preceeds the high level out or with the stage driving the power amplifier (at least with my ARC SP-9).

Why not just test between source and pre or pre and power amp like real folks use cables?

rw

skeptic
01-04-2004, 03:58 PM
Why not just test between source and pre or pre and power amp like real folks use cables?
rw

The answer is simple. When you put the cable between the source and the pre or pre and power amp, you cannot switch to try something else easily and quickly and when you do, what are you comparing? You are comparing one cable to another, in other words, the relative changes one cable might make compared to the changes another might make. Stated simply, you are comparing relative changes. When you do it my way, you are comparing the changes a cable makes to NOTHING. The change is in absolute terms. Actually, you are comparing at worst, the cable to a few inches of signal wire inside the amplifier.

It doesn't matter whether the following active stage is a buffer amplifier with unity gain or less or an active stage with greater than unity gain. The input impedence to that stage will still be high compared to the output impedence of the previous stage or signal source and the cable itself. It is used in a very comparable application.

E-Stat
01-04-2004, 04:01 PM
Most folks who listen to music, however, listen to sources driving gain stages.

You have taken a survey? And?

Mea culpa.

Most folks who listen to music, however, listen to sources driving gain stages (in the context of this discussion using cables with audio components)

Do you know of any musical sources that drive speakers directly without the use of gain stages?

rw

E-Stat
01-04-2004, 04:08 PM
It doesn't matter whether the following active stage is a buffer amplifier with unity gain or less or an active stage with greater than unity gain.

That is your assumption. Many an assumption have been proven wrong.

rw

skeptic
01-04-2004, 04:52 PM
The output of the previous stage is an emitter follower or cathode follower of a phono preamp, a cd player, a tuner or a tape amp. The next stage is invariably the base of a transistor or the grid of a tube. The test is fair and representative of the way cables are actually used. That's why cable advocates hate it. It is easy, and it is telling.

E-Stat
01-04-2004, 06:17 PM
The test is fair and representative of the way cables are actually used. That's why cable advocates hate it. It is easy, and it is telling.

I'll say it again. Buffered tape loops are never what folks listen to by themselves. Sources of all types drive gain stages and preamp outputs drive amplifiers, not buffered unity gain loops. Such pseudo tests are like driving amplifiers with dummy loads, not real world speakers.

rw

Beckman
01-04-2004, 10:37 PM
Generic cables are a good match for your receiver and speakers. High performance cables are only of use with high performance components. If / when you seek better, upgrade the major components first.

That test is fine for those who use cables only in unity gain processor loops. Your simple test is like using purely resistive loads for evaluating amplifers.

Most folks who listen to music, however, listen to sources driving gain stages. Similarly, I've yet to find someone who enjoys listening to a pair of 8 ohm resistors. Surrogate tests that do not employ components in a manner in which they are commonly used are of little use for determining their performance capability.
rw

The frequency respose of a 12 AWG cable is flat in the audible range. It has nothing to do with the speakers changing impedance. The changing impedance of the speaker is seen by the amplifier and the cables have negligable effect on this. All cables can do is act like a tone control and an equalizer is much better suited for that purpose.

If I were you I would just go with 12 o 14 AWG lamp cord/speaker wire from wherever (hardware store).

FLZapped
01-04-2004, 10:37 PM
I'll say it again. Buffered tape loops are never what folks listen to by themselves.

So? What's important is that it is consistent repeatable test methodology. Whether it can actually produce useful results is another matter.




Such pseudo tests are like driving amplifiers with dummy loads, not real world speakers.

rw

Hmmm, the last I checked, you do not drive amps with dummy loads. I guess you could call that a psuedo test.....

-Bruce

mtrycraft
01-04-2004, 11:25 PM
That is your assumption. Many an assumption have been proven wrong.

rw

Yes, many have. Is this been proven wrong? That it will not produce reliable data? Speculation is not the answer.

E-Stat
01-05-2004, 06:41 AM
Speculation is not the answer.

We are in total agreement. That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Speculating that a surrogate test like the monitor loop trick will exactly mimic actual conditions of driving gain stages is not a valid assumption.

rw

E-Stat
01-05-2004, 06:43 AM
So? What's important is that it is consistent repeatable test methodology. Whether it can actually produce useful results is another matter.

Well there are a lot of consistent and repeatable tests that are of little real value to evaluate components.


Hmmm, the last I checked, you do not drive amps with dummy loads. I guess you could call that a psuedo test.....-Bruce

My point is that there are many standardized tests like measuring amplifier output and frequency response using a test load that just don't give us a lot of helpful information as to how an amp will drive a speaker. Real world speakers are more challenging. Maybe I am more sensitive to speaker cable differences because my electrostats present a most challenging load including a significant reactive component.

rw

FLZapped
01-05-2004, 07:16 AM
My point is that there are many standardized tests like measuring amplifier output and frequency response using a test load that just don't give us a lot of helpful information as to how an amp will drive a speaker. Real world speakers are more challenging. Maybe I am more sensitive to speaker cable differences because my electrostats present a most challenging load including a significant reactive component.

rw

And my point was you are not very well versed in what it means to do testing and evaluation to a standard. We've been down this road before, do you wish to get beaten up over it again?

-Bruce

FLZapped
01-05-2004, 07:22 AM
We are in total agreement. That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Speculating that a surrogate test like the monitor loop trick will exactly mimic actual conditions of driving gain stages is not a valid assumption.

rw


No one said that they did and you're assuming that it is imperative, how do you know? Assuming yourself?

-Bruce

Beckman
01-05-2004, 07:37 AM
Do you have the same opinion for the the interconnect cables (i.e. digital opitcal cable, component cables, etc.)

Thank you again.

For interconnects patch cables will work fine. However, video cables transmit signals at around 10 Mhz for regular TV and 30 Mhz for HDTV. If an audio RCA cable is used for a video cable it might pick up static. My suggestion would be to go to Walmart or partsexpress.com and pick up some low price cables. I don't like patch cables, I use them, because they are rather flimsy and don't always provide a tight connection. For $10 or $15 you can get cables that will last for 20 years of component switching, room rearangments, etc.

E-Stat
01-06-2004, 01:06 PM
No one said that they did ...

Read post # 5 by Skeptic. I think you'll find that he believes such a test is relevant and conclusive for all cable applications.

Logically, it is relevant only to the limited way in which the test is conducted.

rw

Monstrous Mike
01-06-2004, 01:30 PM
Generic cables are a good match for your receiver and speakers. High performance cables are only of use with high performance components. If / when you seek better, upgrade the major components first.rw
Umm, umm, I'm going to call that a "Royale...with cheese". This statement would be best said on stage at MIT wearing a long, opulent robe and using a grand sweeping motion of the arm and hand, not to mention a deep, booming voice akin to God.

Man in long robe with sweeping gesture: "Yes, kids, get your pencils out and write this down. It may be the most important proclamation you hear during your Masters of Engineering here at MIT."

And as a final touch, perhaps a sceptor in the other hand ready to chuck a fireball at any little geek who even looks like he is going to question that statement.

Now putting sarcasm aside, statements like that are a soothing comfort to anyone inclined to spending a month's salary on a piece of copper. Darn that was also sarcastic.

Oh, how I hate the Devil's wit.

E-Stat
01-06-2004, 01:40 PM
Umm, umm, I'm going to call that a "Royale...with cheese".

Would you care to share some of what you're smoking? :)

rw

Monstrous Mike
01-06-2004, 01:59 PM
Would you care to share some of what you're smoking? :)

rw
Share? I don't think so.

FLZapped
01-07-2004, 08:40 AM
Read post # 5 by Skeptic. I think you'll find that he believes such a test is relevant and conclusive for all cable applications.

Logically, it is relevant only to the limited way in which the test is conducted.

rw


I don't see anywhere that he says that it is imperative that the test exactly mimic the "listening" mode....just that it is an easily accessible test available to anyone with such a set-up. Relavent, yes, since all else remains the same esxcept the DUT.

-Bruce

soundhd
01-30-2004, 02:31 PM
I would use the 12 guage. It never hurts to keep your amplifer(s) running with least effort.
As for the brand.I would stay away from the hardware type lamp cord/extension cord type cables. Pick a good respected Hi-Fi brand and use some sense when picking the "level" of cable......I usually went with not the lowerst level but the next level up.............I really do think that spending as much for speaker cables and interconnects that cost as much as your components is really a bit silly.........you might be able to hear a difference if you have a system in the $100,000 range but even then you would be hard pressed to "hear" a difference................but then some people have more money then cents....(har har) so I guess if it was a choice of giving it to uncle sam or buying expensive cables I would buy the cables but how many of us are in that situation?........................................ .............
.................................................. .................................................. ..........................
...............I still don't see any hands raised...........

jmracura
01-30-2004, 04:43 PM
thanks for the input. I ended up buying 12gauge speaker wire off the spool at home depot for about .35 cents a foot. considering i used 160ft, it wasn't too expensive. nonetheless, it sounds fantastic to me. especially once i was able to configure the speakers on the receiver properly. the only problem I had was that one run of cable did not work. don't know why considering it was all cut from the same spool. i replaced the run with another from the same spool and the problem was solved. i bought rca screw-on type banana interconnects from them too for about $6 a pair (one connection). either way, it sounds awesome and i'm quite happy with my setup. i can't imagine it sounding THAT much better if i had used $1.50 ft Monster Cable and $20 interconnects from Monster as well. i'd have to believe that it is best just spending the extra money to get a better receiver and speakers...

Lowdef
01-30-2004, 06:36 PM
thanks for the input. I ended up buying 12gauge speaker wire off the spool at home depot for about .35 cents a foot. considering i used 160ft, it wasn't too expensive. nonetheless, it sounds fantastic to me. especially once i was able to configure the speakers on the receiver properly. the only problem I had was that one run of cable did not work. don't know why considering it was all cut from the same spool. i replaced the run with another from the same spool and the problem was solved. i bought rca screw-on type banana interconnects from them too for about $6 a pair (one connection). either way, it sounds awesome and i'm quite happy with my setup. i can't imagine it sounding THAT much better if i had used $1.50 ft Monster Cable and $20 interconnects from Monster as well. i'd have to believe that it is best just spending the extra money to get a better receiver and speakers...

Your logic is wise but maybe your curiosity might get the best of you .So why not some day go and pick up those Monster cables and compare it to your hardware store house wire and see if there is any difference for yourself. If none is noticed then just take it back to the store and get your money back. No harm done. Don't let anyone here tell you what the golden rule is. Experimenting brings knowlege and lessons learned whether it's good or bad.

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich

mtrycraft
01-30-2004, 08:06 PM
i can't imagine it sounding THAT much better if i had used $1.50 ft Monster Cable and $20 interconnects from Monster as well. i'd have to believe that it is best just spending the extra money to get a better receiver and speakers...


People do imagine many things, including audible differences between those cables :)

However, reality is another story :)

mtrycraft
01-30-2004, 08:08 PM
As for the brand.I would stay away from the hardware type lamp cord/extension cord type cables.

Why is that?

jmracura
01-31-2004, 09:50 PM
I would like to try out better cables/interconnects one day, except that I don't know any retailer that would it back once it is cut off the spool. Everywhere I checked had a clear policy that they don't take back cut speaker cable. Since I bought 160ft of it, I don't think I want to spend $240 additional just to appease my curiosity. I'd probably just go out and buy some other component for my system. But, maybe down the line when I'm making more money I may try it. :)

mtrycraft
01-31-2004, 10:10 PM
But, maybe down the line when I'm making more money I may try it. :)


When you do, make sure you use some sort of bias controls. Otherwise, it will give you unreliable outcome.

omikey
03-10-2004, 02:02 PM
Generic cables are a good match for your receiver and speakers. High performance cables are only of use with high performance components. If / when you seek better, upgrade the major components first.



That test is fine for those who use cables only in unity gain processor loops. Your simple test is like using purely resistive loads for evaluating amplifers.

Most folks who listen to music, however, listen to sources driving gain stages. Similarly, I've yet to find someone who enjoys listening to a pair of 8 ohm resistors. Surrogate tests that do not employ components in a manner in which they are commonly used are of little use for determining their performance capability.


rw
actually IMO I think this is very TRUE test .... in your 'real' listening experience the speaker wire 'passive' there is such little resistance over the length of the wire no signal truely develops .... so in this test it is the same, a passive element switched into the line (that's one reason you can't hear a difference, no significat loss of signal over the length of the wire).

Now then Of course on the 'driver' end (the speaker, ok) is an active device where the signal is developed across that 8 ohm resistor ....
so I in fact believe that contraray to your statement: "I've yet to find someone who enjoys listening to a pair of 8 ohm resistors" you yourself do enjoy listening to those resistors.....

omikey
03-10-2004, 02:14 PM
Umm, umm, I'm going to call that a "Royale...with cheese". This statement would be best said on stage at MIT wearing a long, opulent robe and using a grand sweeping motion of the arm and hand, not to mention a deep, booming voice akin to God.

Man in long robe with sweeping gesture: "Yes, kids, get your pencils out and write this down. It may be the most important proclamation you hear during your Masters of Engineering here at MIT."

And as a final touch, perhaps a sceptor in the other hand ready to chuck a fireball at any little geek who even looks like he is going to question that statement.

Now putting sarcasm aside, statements like that are a soothing comfort to anyone inclined to spending a month's salary on a piece of copper. Darn that was also sarcastic.

Oh, how I hate the Devil's wit.

Mike, Mike, Mike

LMFAO :-)