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topspeed
06-07-2005, 05:07 PM
I'm sitting at home sick today and decided to use the solitude to catch up on some classical listening. Now, generally I'll listen at around 84dB, but I was curious if anyone knew what the actual dB's were if you were center stage and a few rows back at say, The Dorothy Chandler Pavillion. I'm talking full orchestra here kids, no rock concerts. I just saw Def Leppard on Saturday and my ears were ringing for a good hour after the show, so that doesn't count. Anybody know?

risabet
06-07-2005, 07:33 PM
I've never measured the live sound at the DCP but I have measured in other venues and IIRC, from a physics course, a quadruple forte (ffff) of a full orchestra, about mid hall, hit peaks around 100dB. Not ridiculously loud by audio standards. IMO the measure of an audio system is its ability to resolve the lower end of the dynamic range, which in live music may be around 30dB, quadruple piano (pppp), giving an actual range of 70dB or so.

In an avergare quiet living room, one can expect a noise floor of about 20dB, giving one a lot of room with which to play.

kexodusc
06-08-2005, 08:03 AM
As a matter of fact, back in college we did some readings at Atlanta Symphony Hall during some rehersals. If memory serves, we hit mid 90's on peaks, with some movements being as low as the mid 70's I think. I seem to have 25 dB between peak and average sound in my memory but I don't know how accurate that is...I'm guessing here that seating position was center stage back several rows. As good a spot as any. I remember we never hit 100 dB only because of some propoganda Bose literature I was reading at the time that was talking about direct-reflecting technology and 100 dB orchestras...(I was going to trade the CV party speakers in for some hi-resolution 901's...man I'm glad I dodged that bullet). It's been so long I don't remember but I'm very tempted to say 94-97dB was the highest. So yeah, 100 dB or is probably very reasonable in some halls.

topspeed
06-08-2005, 08:38 AM
Thanks guys!

I'm well aware of the dramatic dynamic swings in most orchestral music (that's what makes it fun :D) but I never even considered it would be 70dB's! My preference is toward the romantic era, i.e. Wagner, and I pretty well hate the classical era or at least anything with a harpsichord. Bring on the brass! It sounds like my normal listening volume might be on the high side for orchestral. Mebbe I should dial it back some, eh?

E-Stat
06-08-2005, 01:24 PM
Now, generally I'll listen at around 84dB, but I was curious if anyone knew what the actual dB's were if you were center stage and a few rows back at say, The Dorothy Chandler Pavillion.
The answer varies with the content but I'll second kexo's comments at the ASO as well peaking in the mid 90s with average levels much lower. Harry Pearson measured similar readings at Carnegie Hall some time ago.

Perhaps the unfortunate bassoon player seated in front of the trombones might get quite a blast, but the levels are lower than many think.

rw

thepogue
06-08-2005, 01:49 PM
it's not at all as loud as that 5.1 vs 2 channel thread....(and fer sure not as long...lol)


I'm sure glad we're all on the same page now lmao...(convinced that two channel rules...:D )


Peace, Pogue

risabet
06-08-2005, 02:07 PM
but 95 to 100dB seems right. Average SPL around 70ish dB are what I recall. The quietest passages of Wagner are very quiet. I measured the "Forest Murmurs" on the Sheffield DD at about 40dB with averages in the mid/upper 70's and peaks around 85dB.

Without Bach and Mozart, there could be no Wagner! :)

Eric Z
06-08-2005, 04:10 PM
The Chicago Symphony Orchestra peaks in the low 100s- about 102 or 103. They used to have this information on their website.

I'm definitely partial to brass!

Sir Terrence the Terrible
07-07-2005, 03:50 AM
It highly depends on the size of the orchestra and the hall itself, and where you sit in that hall. I have recorded 110db peaks on stage from the Los Angeles Symphony in the newly opened Disney hall during a live concert with the hall full of people. I have recorded peaks of 105-107db from the San Francisco Symphony at Davies hall from the first row.

Both of these reading came from these orchestra with about 110 members playing a larger scale piece.

The loudest I have ever recorded came from the Chicago Symphony orchestra and chorus playing the Mozart Reqium during a full peak of the choir and orchestra. That peak registered about 112db on the stage. How loud it sounds in the seats highly depends on whether there are butts in the seats, if it humid, the amount of brass used, the size of the orchestra itself, and the reflective nature of the hall and where you sit in it.

hermanv
07-07-2005, 09:31 AM
Neat discussion. I am quite interested in the quiet end of the volume scale. risabet said a typical living room was around 20 dB, I would have guessed a little higher as most of us live in cities where it's less quiet.

The thing about the noise floor is that level meters read the same answer for white noise averaging 20dB as they do for more coherent sounds that may hit 30 or 35 and then drop to 5 or 10. It's the nature of both meters and humans to average or to reduce a complex issue to a single number.

White noise will mask audiophile system performance quite differently from the coherent sounds sometimes found in a home. So my long winded point is, that the best sound systems probably acheive quite a bit better than 70 dB dynamic range. I also believe that it's that lowest 10 or 20 dB not the upper 90 that gives us the most auditory cues about our sound system quality.

When I experiment with room conditioning or cables, it seems the most worthwhile results are when low level details suddenly appear when they weren't there before. The old cliche "I heard things I've never heard before" while funny, is still true.

So having stuck my neck out this far lets go farther: Systems have a resolution limit, this limit is sometimes called (probably incorrectly) a noise floor. This limit is comprised of a number of limitations in electronic devices; distortion, noise, intermodulation effects and small signal compression.

Here are my guesses as to possible limits of home high fidelity equipment. These are guesses made to show a point rather than any attempt at a ratings system. The guesses are very broad and there is no way your system will land exactly within a given boundary. The attempt here is to show the results both of investing more money in your equipment and to a smaller extent where the money should be invested next. I intentionally set the boundaries at 10 dB increments even if this meant over generalizing. The actual numbers are pure guess work I won't defend them they are there in an attempt to illustrate a point.

System description; folowed by a typical system price; and last the estimated resolving power or usable dynamic range:

1. Conventional mass market receiver, speakers and CD player. A package from a mass market retailer.
$250-$999
greater than 60dB

2. Selected mass market equipment or where the owner has made careful informed selections at just above a mass market price point
$700-$1,500
greater than 70dB

3. Separates with commercial improved quality cabling and speakers made by companies dedicated to speaker manufacture.
$1,200-$5,000
greater than 80dB

4.Expensive "high end" name brand equipment with audiophile cabling "audiophile" speakers. includes attempts to deal with room and AC power effects.
$4,000-$15,000
greater than 90dB

5. Cost no object carefully configured systems with all components selected for optimum compatibility and synergy.
$15,000-$100,000+
greater than 100dB

Based on these broad extrapolations you need to spend in the neighborhood of five grand to hear the difference between 14 bit and 16 bits in an average working system.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
07-07-2005, 11:04 AM
Neat discussion. I am quite interested in the quiet end of the volume scale. risabet said a typical living room was around 20 dB,

No way this is true. The typical background level in a house in a quiet neighborhood would be closer to 50db. A THX certified theater is more like 20db. My apartment with double paned windows, and my listening room in the center of my apartment in the back of the building is around 30db





Based on these broad extrapolations you need to spend in the neighborhood of five grand to hear the difference between 14 bit and 16 bits in an average working system.

I don't think you calculations on this are quite right. You need to look at some more perimeters before coming to any conclusions.

14 bits has a very audible noise floor that is easily heard on quiet passages. Listening test also show that the noise floor of 16bits is also audible under certain conditions. I can hear the noise floor of 14bits even on my system.

hermanv
07-07-2005, 12:19 PM
No way this is true. The typical background level in a house in a quiet neighborhood would be closer to 50db. A THX certified theater is more like 20db. My apartment with double paned windows, and my listening room in the center of my apartment in the back of the building is around 30db We seem to agree that most homes are not as quiet as 20dB. I guessed that 30 dB was closer, whereas your claim of near 50dB seems loud to me, but I haven't auditioned that many rooms.

On the other point I am less sure, I certainly admit to a high degree of generalization, accounting for every possible parameter that affects a noise floor in a system and a home would probably need a book not a post on a discussion forum.

I was not able to hear the difference between 14 and 16 bits on a Stereophile demo disk with my older all Denon system. Ego and pride made me try quite hard but I couldn't do it. Now with my new (much pricier) system, it's easy to hear the difference. Since I only owned the one system that couldn't do it doesn't mean that no one's system could. The first few years of existence for the CD, 14 bits of real resolution was pretty much it.

The 14th bit is 84 dB below 0 dB wheras the 16th bit is 96 dB below 0 dB. I suppose it would depend on a great number of factors with room background noise and perhaps power line noise being two important ones. This implies that a noise floor, or at least a peak to average ratio of about 75 dB would be needed to hear the difference. Obviously systems that will play louder can get by with a higher noise floor and visa versa.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
07-08-2005, 03:54 AM
We seem to agree that most homes are not as quiet as 20dB. I guessed that 30 dB was closer, whereas your claim of near 50dB seems loud to me, but I haven't auditioned that many rooms.

50db may seem loud, but that is about average for most listening rooms that I have measured, and what most other installers I have talked to have measured. Having a room with a background level of 30db is highly unusual, but most people do not have double paned windows or have the luxury of choosing exactly where their system is going to be located in their residence.



other point I am less sure, I certainly admit to a high degree of generalization, accounting for every possible parameter that affects a noise floor in a system and a home would probably need a book not a post on a discussion forum.

I was not able to hear the difference between 14 and 16 bits on a Stereophile demo disk with my older all Denon system. Ego and pride made me try quite hard but I couldn't do it. Now with my new (much pricier) system, it's easy to hear the difference. Since I only owned the one system that couldn't do it doesn't mean that no one's system could. The first few years of existence for the CD, 14 bits of real resolution was pretty much it.


You are right, converters in the early days of CD where only able to output about 14bits of digital data, that is why CD sounded so bad. That along with poorly designed and implemented anti aliasing filters. IMO it is rather easy to hear the difference between 14bits and 16bits. It get's a little harder going from 16 to 18bits. Its a little easier when going from 16 to 20bit, and very easy going from 16 to 24bits. 24bits sound VERY dynamic compared to 16bits.

The 14th bit is 84 dB below 0 dB wheras the 16th bit is 96 dB below 0 dB. I suppose it would depend on a great number of factors with room background noise and perhaps power line noise being two important ones. This implies that a noise floor, or at least a peak to average ratio of about 75 dB would be needed to hear the difference. Obviously systems that will play louder can get by with a higher noise floor and visa versa.[/QUOTE]

kexodusc
07-08-2005, 04:16 AM
If I measure my room when it's pretty quiet with the windows closed, I'm anwhere between 38 and 52 dB. In my room with some ambiet noise...I live in a rural-ish suburb with not much traffic. My Galaxy Audio SPL meter is suppose to be a pretty accurate piece of equipment, it's much more capbable than my Rat Shack meter. I tend to believe that a living room would have a noise floor closer to 50 dB than 30 dB. I can fart 45 dB.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
07-08-2005, 07:18 AM
If I measure my room when it's pretty quiet with the windows closed, I'm anwhere between 38 and 52 dB. In my room with some ambiet noise...I live in a rural-ish suburb with not much traffic. My Galaxy Audio SPL meter is suppose to be a pretty accurate piece of equipment, it's much more capbable than my Rat Shack meter. I tend to believe that a living room would have a noise floor closer to 50 dB than 30 dB. I can fart 45 dB.

eeeeeeeewwwwwwww.......wahahahahahahahahahahahaha. ...LOLOLOLOLOL..If Kex farts in a room, and nobody is there to hear it, did he really fart? Hehehehehehehe..

hermanv
07-08-2005, 08:08 AM
If I don't post my opinion on this forum, am I still wrong?

cam
07-08-2005, 04:24 PM
I just measured my room and I was thinking 50 db would be way too high. I was shocked. I put my spl on the lowest setting which is 60 and it was reading about 50 then it would say low (my spl can only read 10db lower then my lowest setting), so with nothing on in my house and I do have double pane windows, I was reading high 40's (estimate) up to 52 db. I never would have thought that my house was that loud with nothing on. And then I farted and it read 65db. Top that one Kex, and I know you will.

PAT.P
07-08-2005, 05:26 PM
cam /Kex Your the only one I know that measure the db of your farts.Is this before or after eating beans?Pat.P :D

cam
07-08-2005, 06:17 PM
Eating beans is just an excuse, I've got one in the chambers at all times. As Shrek would say, better out then in I always say.

PAT.P
07-08-2005, 07:03 PM
Eating beans is just an excuse, I've got one in the chambers at all times. As Shrek would say, better out then in I always say.
Next time I feel a trimmer in Ottawa I'll know it came from the West.Please dont light up like that movie ! Pat.P