Upgrade from a receiver to something simple

[nightflier]

My father's CD player dies recently and so since he's upgrading, he wanted to also replace the receiver. One of the things my father is particular about is simplicity. He never used any of the features on the receiver (too many buttons, he always said). He is also of the belief that all the other features don't improve the enjoyability of the system and may actually degrade quality. He even lost the remote (perhaps willfully) soon after I set the system up for him. What I want to do is replace the receiver with an amp/preamp/tuner combo. I am starting with the pre-amp. Here are my criteria for the preamp:

- The simplest possible layout: Volume and selector would be enough, although bass & trebble may come in handy
- Remote not necessary
- Second hand is OK
- Has to be a standard brand so that a compatible tuner and amp are easy to find
- Around $500 is his budget (we're going to spend more on the speakers & amp).

The Creek integrateds obviously come to mind but the price point is a bit steep. I'm mostly looking for some brand names right now, so that I can narrow things down. Basically I'm looking for a company that keep things as simple as possible.

[anamorphic96]

NAD all the way. Simplicity is there trademark.

[topspeed]

He values simplicity and yet you want to take him down the road to separates. Interesting...

Most any pre-amp you see is going to be far simpler to use than any AVR because they aren't trying to do everything, just direct the signal. Tubes go against the "simple" mandate so I'd look into maybe Creek, Adcom, Parasound, Rotel, or Musical Fidelity. I prefer passive pre's but that's me. There's nothing wrong with your B&K, why not find him a used one?

I'm unsure what you mean with "standard brand," but any tuner from any manufacturer will work as long as they have rca's. Tuners are relatively cheap and easy to find. Personally, I'd forgo it and get a Sirius or XM tuner instead. You're lucky tho, you get KROQ.

[nightflier]

He values simplicity and yet you want to take him down the road to separates. Interesting...

Well, I also want him to have an upgrade from a stereo receiver.


There's nothing wrong with your B&K, why not find him a used one?

That's more technology than he wants. He doesn't even want a remote.


I'm unsure what you mean with "standard brand," but any tuner from any manufacturer will work as long as they have rca's.

If possible, I'd like the amp and preamp to be from the same manufacturer. My dad's a bit absentminded, and he'll forget to turn off the amp when he turns off the pre. If the two can be turned off with one button, that would be a lot easier.

[topspeed]

If possible, I'd like the amp and preamp to be from the same manufacturer. My dad's a bit absentminded, and he'll forget to turn off the amp when he turns off the pre. If the two can be turned off with one button, that would be a lot easier.Hmmm, I didn't know amps had trigger switches. You could always be like me and just never turn them off in the first place :p!

[nightflier]

Hmmm, I didn't know amps had trigger switches. You could always be like me and just never turn them off in the first place :p!

Well I know many of the newer amps will go into "sleep" mode if no signal is present for a while. That would work too. But ideally I would want to have a pre-amp and amp from the same company so that the preamp can turn off the amp. B&K and PS Audio (new company) equipment has that capability, but I'm sure that others (Adcom, NAD) do too.

I'm leaning towards NAD since they are quite popular and from what I've read pretty good, too. But I would want to have the simplest possible model and something from the late 80's or newer. Any recommendations?

[kexodusc]

I definitely think you should consider an Integrated amp...no need for 2 separate components. You'll get the 1 power button thing, the same brand thing, and a convenient space saving all in one box, with the quality of separates. How much power do you think you'll need?

I would recommend any of the more recent NAD integrateds (back to 1999 or so) from the used market. Or even a 3140 or 3020...tons of those out there and they are considered legends today.

Might want to consider Arcam too...

[nightflier]

How much power do you think you'll need?

I agree that an integrated would simplify things, but I'll also be looking at some of the harder to drive speakers out there like Dynaudio's. My father and I both prefer warm but highly detailed speakers for classical music. Hence the $500 for the pre, as we're saving the bulk of the budget for speakers.

That's not to say that there aren't very good efficient speakers out there, but it's just been my experience that this is typically not the case. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[kexodusc]

Well, how much power do you need even with inefficient speakers?
There's plenty of powerful integrateds out there and NAD makes some pretty decent inexpensive ones.

2nd, I strongly urge you to consider buying the speakers first and working backwards. Then you'll have a better idea of what you're up against and can determine the options. Especially if you are like me and fussy about speakers....it could very well be a 30 watt amps is more than you'll ever need to play cleaner and louder than he'd ever want? Or it could be as you say and 200 watt monoblocks are in your future.

[nightflier]

Well, how much power do you need even with inefficient speakers?
There's plenty of powerful integrateds out there and NAD makes some pretty decent inexpensive ones.

2nd, I strongly urge you to consider buying the speakers first and working backwards. Then you'll have a better idea of what you're up against and can determine the options. Especially if you are like me and fussy about speakers....it could very well be a 30 watt amps is more than you'll ever need to play cleaner and louder than he'd ever want? Or it could be as you say and 200 watt monoblocks are in your future.

The receiver we now have won't be able to drive the speakers we want to audition. I want to get the preamp, lend him one of my amps (I have three that I am playing with), and then let him audition some of the better speakers out there.

[kexodusc]

I see...I assume the receiver doesn't have pre-outs.
Consider the integrated route as an option, you can safely buy an integrated of the same wattage as a power amplifier and expect the same power.
But I can see your dilemma.

[RTilbury]

I saw this Arcam alpha 9 pre amp on Audiogon and it seems like it would be a good choice for your budget. Maybe not simple enough? I duno. Would save you 100 dollars off your budget, you could then buy a NAD, Arcam, Rotel, or adcom amp to pair with it.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1121802740

I for one hate the way all Arcams look, but that is just my opinion.

BTW retail on this was 800

[nightflier]

I saw this Arcam alpha 9 pre amp on Audiogon and it seems like it would be a good choice for your budget. Maybe not simple enough? I duno. Would save you 100 dollars off your budget, you could then buy a NAD, Arcam, Rotel, or adcom amp to pair with it.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1121802740

I for one hate the way all Arcams look, but that is just my opinion.

BTW retail on this was 800

I will seriously consider the Arcam, and I mean no offense with this post, but it sure ain't pretty. No offense, but it looks like a low-fi CC or BB component, sort of like the Kenwood / Pioneer stuff from a decade ago. You'd think for $800, they could have given it a face lift.

[RTilbury]

Hah, exactly what I think. I dont care much for even the higher end FMJ or Diva series of Arcam either, looks wise. But hey you cant judge a book by its cover, and arcam makes some high quality gear. I think thats the best pre in that series too.

PS. you wanted simple ;)

[kexodusc]

Yeah, Arcam's second only to NAD in the ugly department among more common brands...with honorable mention to Adcom.
Don't worry though, Arcam's are great hand-made gear.

[hermanv]

A very quick look at the Audigon classifieds revealed the following. Although most do not allow the simple amplifier off scheme, three of these are a significant step up in the quality range of what's been discussed. One is a little high in price, but we are talking about venerable Audio Research

For me it's sound first; everything else second, if it sounds good who cares if it's ugly?

1. A Reference Line Silver Signature - passive Pre $595
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1123088926

2. Rotel RC1070 Pre $350
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1122825714

3. Audio Research LS3 $675
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1122666197

4. McIntosh MX112 Pre and tuner $450
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1122638586


A little effort and more probable gems can be found.

[nightflier]

Rotel RC1070 Pre $350
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1122825714


I know this is going to sound like screaming down with the monarchy at the golden jubilee, but I had forgotten how unattractive the Mac's were when I said the Arcams were ugly. My bad. The Mac reminds me more of the spectacles the queen wore in the 50's than a modern preamp....

Seriously, though, the Rotel looks to be what I'm looking for. And I like the fact that it has a phono stage built-in. I was considering adding that as a seperate preamp, but it would be simpler if it was integrated.

Regarding the control of the amp, I noticed that PS Audio's HCA-2 has a 12v trigger that is supposed to be a fairly standard way (?) to control power-down across the industry, at least according to the manual. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a preamp that has a 12v trigger. Anyone know of any? The Rotel RC1070 documentation online did not mention this.

One notable exception, however, is that all B&K preamps seem to have a 12v trigger. Unfortunately, this is via an RCA plug, not the 3.5mm (industry standard?) plug that the PS Audio amp uses. Since this is just a simple 12v trigger, can I just buy an RCA-3.5mm adapter at Radio-Shack?

Also, the Parasound Classic series of amps seem to be the only amps that I have found that will auto-sense a signal via the RCA connection and then power on or off (into standby mode) accordingly. This seems to be something pretty basic since even my subs all do this. Are there any other amps that have this feature?

I hope I'm not sounding like an old record, but do all of you who have amps & preamps from different manufacturers just leave the amp on all the time or do you manually turn them off?

[RGA]

Really in this porice range the sound of the amps may as well be a nat's eyelash difference and most will be ok but really if you want something simple easy sounds good and built like a preverbial tank why are you not looking a the Antique Sound Labs AQ 1003DT. you're looking at replacement tubes every few years which are basically the cost of some lightbulbs(which is essentially what tubes are). I'd take the AQ1003DT for sound and build over anything I've ever heard from the likes of Arcam, NAD, Adcom or any other so priced integrateds. Sure they're a little more fuss but it takes a whole 5 minutes to bias newly purchased tubes.They will easily drive 87db 8 ohm speakers. http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html#INTEGRATED

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1204/aslaq1003dt.htm

note their are plenty of older units without the remote and without the sub outs which should be on E-bay easily for $500. Another one to look for is the Jolida 302B http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd302b.shtml

[shokhead]

My father's CD player dies recently and so since he's upgrading, he wanted to also replace the receiver. One of the things my father is particular about is simplicity. He never used any of the features on the receiver (too many buttons, he always said). He is also of the belief that all the other features don't improve the enjoyability of the system and may actually degrade quality. He even lost the remote (perhaps willfully) soon after I set the system up for him. What I want to do is replace the receiver with an amp/preamp/tuner combo. I am starting with the pre-amp. Here are my criteria for the preamp:

- The simplest possible layout: Volume and selector would be enough, although bass & trebble may come in handy
- Remote not necessary
- Second hand is OK
- Has to be a standard brand so that a compatible tuner and amp are easy to find
- Around $500 is his budget (we're going to spend more on the speakers & amp).

The Creek integrateds obviously come to mind but the price point is a bit steep. I'm mostly looking for some brand names right now, so that I can narrow things down. Basically I'm looking for a company that keep things as simple as possible.

What about the new YSP1 Yamaha?

[theaudiohobby]

I know this is going to sound like screaming down with the monarchy at the golden jubilee, but I had forgotten how unattractive the Mac's were when I said the Arcams were ugly. My bad. The Mac reminds me more of the spectacles the queen wore in the 50's than a modern preamp....

Seriously, though, the Rotel looks to be what I'm looking for. And I like the fact that it has a phono stage built-in. I was considering adding that as a seperate preamp, but it would be simpler if it was integrated.

Regarding the control of the amp, I noticed that PS Audio's HCA-2 has a 12v trigger that is supposed to be a fairly standard way (?) to control power-down across the industry, at least according to the manual. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a preamp that has a 12v trigger. Anyone know of any? The Rotel RC1070 documentation online did not mention this.


I would not necessarily go for the RC 1070 even though it has the features that you are looking for, I had it a while back, the Rotel 'Michi' RHA05 preamp sounded better in just about every way you could think of, The RC1070 sounded grainy, even veiled in comparison. The Rotel RHA05 has been long discontinued but it was a beautiful preamp, the RHC05 was even more transparent but lacked the last iota of dynamics in comparison to the RHA05 which is an active preamp, you pays the money, takes the choice.

I just checked the manual for the RC1070 and it does have a 12v trigger, I switch off all my appliances manually but then again I run a minimalist system, I have only two analog inputs!

[hermanv]

It's not elegant nor are there any microprossesors - how about one of those power strips with an ON/OFF switch?

[nightflier]

It's not elegant nor are there any microprossesors - how about one of those power strips with an ON/OFF switch?

OK, let's not get carried away. The system has to look presentable and will be set on a nice mahogany stereo rack that my father is quite fond of. A power strip would require him to place the thing in front of the rack, or leave it dangling next to it, neither of which would look very attractive. Plus he would have to bend down to turn it off (he has a bad back). Besides, we have a Panamax power strip fastened to the back of the rack already.

I definitely want to have the power controlled by the preamp. Thanks for the input on the Rotel. I must confess that the price was a factor in my hasty decision.

RGA, regarding the tubes, I know the sound quality would be appreciated, but the idea of ordering and replacing tubes is not something I see my father doing. Typically, he'd use it until the tubes burned out and then stop using it until I replaced them.

As a side issue, I've been listening to two amps at my own house a B&K Reference 4420 and a PS Audio HCA-2. While the latter probably still has some burn-in time left, I am taking a real liking to the B&K and so I will probably pass the PS Audio on to my father to drive 4 ohm speakers. While I haven't settled on everything yet, the system for my father will probably boil down to:

- Music Hall TT (already have this)
- Grado/Musical Fidelity or similar phono preamp (budget ~ $300)
- Cambridge Audio or similar level CD player (budget ~$200)
- any brand used tuner (budget ~$100)
- Parasound/Rotel or similar level preamp (budget ~$500)
- PS Audio HCA-2 amp (already have this)
- Dynaudio Audience or similar level used bookshelf speakers (budget ~$1000)
- Cables (budget ~$150)

I know these are not ideal prices, but our budget is not infinite. This system will be replacing an unimpressive Onkyo receiver, a pair of philips speakers with weak cones, and a Phillips CD player that went on the fritz. I know that an integrated Creek or even Cambridge preamp/amp would also be good, but I am concerned that they won't have the muscle to drive the Dynes like the HCA will. My father and I are both Dynaudio fans, although we've never been able to afford them new. I have a pair of Audience's on loan that I also had a year ago. For classical and vocal music, they really are a tough act to beat. What it comes down to is that we're looking for an adequate system to drive the Dynes in stereo. The source is 50% LP's, 20% radio, 30% CD.

[hermanv]

Well as you can see there are nearly as many opinions as there are members.

Congratulations for not running to the nearset mass marketer and letting them sell you whatever they happened to have the most of.

Good luck with your new system and hope that it brings a great deal of enjoyment. :)

[corwin99]

If you're going to be using the PS Audio HCA-2 I would HIGHLY recommend using a passive preamp/volume control rather than active if your sources are up to the task. The PS Audio is fantastic with a passive. I know a couple people that use this combination.. I also own a PS Audio HCA-2 and have noticed that it is absolutely dead quiet and clear with a passive. Not sure how well it would work with Vinyl though.

[nightflier]

I also own a PS Audio HCA-2 and have noticed that it is absolutely dead quiet and clear with a passive. Not sure how well it would work with Vinyl though.

My dad listens mostly to LP's so this is an important issue. Why would it have trouble with Vinyl?

BTW, what about the Jolida JD-50? I would have to add a phono-pre, but it might be worth it.