SVS vs. Hsu

[oddeoowphil38]

I have been looking at these three 10" subs:
1. SVS PB10-ISD $429 plus S&H
2. Hsu VTF-2MKII $499 plus S&H
3. Hsu STF-2 $399 plus S&H.

I currently own a Paradigm PS1000 v.4 10 " sub and have been quite happy with it but noticed when I turn my low pass X-over to my yammies lowest setting of 40 Hz there is very little output. This sub sounds really good-you know bass is tight and not boomy with very little overhang. Hence, this is the main reason why I prefer 10" subs over larger because of overhang problems and thus 10" subs generally are more tight and controlled. My original plan was to get another Paradigm sub just like what I have now to further reduce the amount of standing waves and for better over all balance. However, my neighbors have been complaining a lot lately. Heck, they called the police on me and reported me to my landlord. My neighbors claim their picture frames on their walls have fallen off and lots of rattling. It is hard to believe my 10" sub could do that---but I do reside in a mobile home and my neighbors are very close by. As a result, I believe I will just get another sub and sell my Paradigm. I am looking for a sub that will offer lower than 40 Hz extension, remains very tight and accurate-no boominess, and can handle transients well with both for music and home theater. The subs listed above are in my price range and have all been well received. So, which is better at producing tight well defined bass that extends lower than 40 Hz to say at least 25 Hz? Which will have the least amount of overhang and sloppiness? I dont need to shake my walls to the ground especially since my neighbors are already complaining. Just good solid punch bass with excellent extension. Any comments will be much appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Phil

[kexodusc]

Hey Phil...I'm sure you don't mean to, but you can start one of the most grueling and intense flame wars in audio today by posting a thread with that title :D


I have been looking at these three 10" subs:
1. SVS PB10-ISD $429 plus S&H
2. Hsu VTF-2MKII $499 plus S&H
3. Hsu STF-2 $399 plus S&H.

I currently own a Paradigm PS1000 v.4 10 " sub and have been quite happy with it but noticed when I turn my low pass X-over to my yammies lowest setting of 40 Hz there is very little output. This sub sounds really good-you know bass is tight and not boomy with very little overhang. Hence, this is the main reason why I prefer 10" subs over larger because of overhang problems and thus 10" subs generally are more tight and controlled.
Stop right here. It's important to make a distinction now, 10" subs are only tighter than larger subs <i>if</i>the 10" driver displays more control over cone motion than a larger driver of relatively similar cone composition, spiders and surrounds. What you almost always find with product lines (like Paradigm's PS or PW series, HSU, SVS, etc.) is that this holds true, the components in the drivers change only a little to compensate for size and don't really improve much. Not always though. I found the PW-2100 I had briefly to be a bit better for music than the PW-2200, but I got rid of it after awhile because I couldn't make stereo subs work well, and didn't really need a sub for music as much as HT. And the PW-2200 overall was just better for my purposes.

Having said all that, you can't really compare a 10" sub of one make to a 12" sub of another and expect it to be tighter or better performing with less hangover just because it's 10". There are some dynamite 12" woofers out there. The presence (or absence) of a port will contribute much more to linear cone movement and braking than the size of a driver. Sealed cabinets are tighter, have greater control, and are more accurate, all things equal.



My original plan was to get another Paradigm sub just like what I have now to further reduce the amount of standing waves and for better over all balance. However, my neighbors have been complaining a lot lately. Heck, they called the police on me and reported me to my landlord. My neighbors claim their picture frames on their walls have fallen off and lots of rattling. It is hard to believe my 10" sub could do that---but I do reside in a mobile home and my neighbors are very close by. As a result, I believe I will just get another sub and sell my Paradigm. I am looking for a sub that will offer lower than 40 Hz extension, remains very tight and accurate-no boominess, and can handle transients well with both for music and home theater. The subs listed above are in my price range and have all been well received. So, which is better at producing tight well defined bass that extends lower than 40 Hz to say at least 25 Hz? Which will have the least amount of overhang and sloppiness? I dont need to shake my walls to the ground especially since my neighbors are already complaining. Just good solid punch bass with excellent extension. Any comments will be much appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Phil
Of all the subs you listed you can't actually listen to any of them in advance.
It's doubtful you will find anyone who's heard all of these. I owned a VTF-2 for awhile...I liked it. I upgraded to a PW-2200, which was just a bit better, probably not a better value.

Based on what I've read, I'd expect the SVS and HSU units both to be good buys. If you're going to take a risk, might as well take the cheapest risk, right?

[Worf101]

and love em. But I've also listened extensively to SVS subs (at my guitar players house) and found it to be "right up there" as well. Both are great companies and they both make superior products but I prefer HSU because... that's what I got to hear first and they've treated me like a king after all my purchases for myself and others... Just my 2 cents...

Da Worfster :cool:

[BC Dave]

Hi,

I also own a PS-1000 version 4 and concur with you that it is nice and tight with music. I used to own the PS-1000 v2 and it was boomy with music, so I sold it, but I bought a V4 about a year ago. A high-end dealer told me that the amp in the V4 is much improved over earlier versions and that and some driver improvements have made the sub much more musical. I have it in a corner with the ports facing out into the room (behind an angled TV) and it is great for jazz and blues. Based on my own experience with watching movies with deep bass (Like Finding Nemo or Die Another Day) I believe the PS1000 responds well below 40 hertz. I have a test CD and it has subwoofer tones down to 20 hertz. Nothing's happening with the PS-1000 at 20 hertz but at 25 hertz the walls are shaking. If you get something that is signficantly ballsier than the PS-1000 V4 you are going to be getting high-frequency complaints over your low-frequency noise generation.

[Woochifer]

If your neighbors are already complaining, why are you looking at subs that will extend the bass down by at least another half octave? If you got standing waves in your room, you will still have them if you place the new sub in the same location. And potentially, a new sub might make these issues even worse because you now have more frequencies where standing waves can develop. Only solutions to standing wave problems in the lower frequencies (which cancel out the bass at some frequencies, and boost the bass to unbearable boomy levels at other frequencies) are repositioning, equalization, and/or room treatments.

Low frequency waves can easily pass through walls (a mobile home I would guess has limited sound absorption in the low frequencies), and even a room away, the bass can actually sound louder than inside the room where you have the subwoofer. It all depends on how the bass waves interact inside of a particular room. At home, the bass is louder in the kitchen than in my living room, even though the subwoofer is in the living room. If your neighbor's home is right next to yours, then enough bass can definitely pass through the wall and knock stuff off of their wall. A room interaction that cancels out the bass in your room might actually amplify the bass inside your neighbor's home.

I suggest that you try repositioning the Paradigm and take some measurements first. You might be able to find a spot inside of your room that reinforces the bass more and allows you to enjoy fuller bass, while actually turning down the sub level. That will help reduce the sound intrusion into your neighbor's home.

Between the Hsu and SVS, they're both very well regarded and you'd be fine with either one. (Personally, I would go with Hsu because one of the two SVS owners tends to be a bit of a prick on various audio forums, and Hsu gets less into the online pissing matches than some of the other direct vendors. But, the quality of the product and customer support is well regarded with both companies.) But, I suspect that both of them will also transmit a lot more bass into your neighbor's home.

[Woochifer]

Stop right here. It's important to make a distinction now, 10" subs are only tighter than larger subs <i>if</i>the 10" driver displays more control over cone motion than a larger driver of relatively similar cone composition, spiders and surrounds. What you almost always find with product lines (like Paradigm's PS or PW series, HSU, SVS, etc.) is that this holds true, the components in the drivers change only a little to compensate for size and don't really improve much. Not always though. I found the PW-2100 I had briefly to be a bit better for music than the PW-2200, but I got rid of it after awhile because I couldn't make stereo subs work well, and didn't really need a sub for music as much as HT. And the PW-2200 overall was just better for my purposes.

Having said all that, you can't really compare a 10" sub of one make to a 12" sub of another and expect it to be tighter or better performing with less hangover just because it's 10". There are some dynamite 12" woofers out there. The presence (or absence) of a port will contribute much more to linear cone movement and braking than the size of a driver. Sealed cabinets are tighter, have greater control, and are more accurate, all things equal.

Agreed. There are a lot of perceptions out there about how smaller or lighter woofers produce a "tighter" sound, but there are plenty of other factors involved in how it all sounds. The box design you already hit upon, and Adire Audio published a rather interesting article about how you need to look at the driver inductance rather than the mass of the cone in determining the "speed" of the woofer or its actual transient response.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf

[oddeoowphil38]

If your neighbors are already complaining, why are you looking at subs that will extend the bass down by at least another half octave? If you got standing waves in your room, you will still have them if you place the new sub in the same location. And potentially, a new sub might make these issues even worse because you now have more frequencies where standing waves can develop. Only solutions to standing wave problems in the lower frequencies (which cancel out the bass at some frequencies, and boost the bass to unbearable boomy levels at other frequencies) are repositioning, equalization, and/or room treatments.

Low frequency waves can easily pass through walls (a mobile home I would guess has limited sound absorption in the low frequencies), and even a room away, the bass can actually sound louder than inside the room where you have the subwoofer. It all depends on how the bass waves interact inside of a particular room. At home, the bass is louder in the kitchen than in my living room, even though the subwoofer is in the living room. If your neighbor's home is right next to yours, then enough bass can definitely pass through the wall and knock stuff off of their wall. A room interaction that cancels out the bass in your room might actually amplify the bass inside your neighbor's home.

I suggest that you try repositioning the Paradigm and take some measurements first. You might be able to find a spot inside of your room that reinforces the bass more and allows you to enjoy fuller bass, while actually turning down the sub level. That will help reduce the sound intrusion into your neighbor's home.

Between the Hsu and SVS, they're both very well regarded and you'd be fine with either one. (Personally, I would go with Hsu because one of the two SVS owners tends to be a bit of a prick on various audio forums, and Hsu gets less into the online pissing matches than some of the other direct vendors. But, the quality of the product and customer support is well regarded with both companies.) But, I suspect that both of them will also transmit a lot more bass into your neighbor's home.
Ok thanks guys for the info. As for as overhang goes as in 10" vs 12" what Ii meant to say was that in the price range(under $500) generally speaking most 10" powered subs will be tighter when compared to 12" subs relatively speaking. Sure there are some where the 12" sub can be a responsive as a smaller driver such as in a 10" sub but they are usually more expensive and in some cases much more so. Where my sub is positioned now and my yammie set to 40 Hz low pass there is very little output. So, I will move it around some and see if it makes any differences. The last thing I wanna do is make my neighbor more upset. However, I still want good tight controlled and well defined bass that extends at least to the 25-30 Hz range. No problem turning it down. I have to get along with my neighbors but that does not mean stop living. Hopefully, I can change my living arrangements soon. Once again, thanks kex and wooc I appreciate your insight.

[shokhead]

If your neighbors are already complaining, why are you looking at subs that will extend the bass down by at least another half octave? If you got standing waves in your room, you will still have them if you place the new sub in the same location. And potentially, a new sub might make these issues even worse because you now have more frequencies where standing waves can develop. Only solutions to standing wave problems in the lower frequencies (which cancel out the bass at some frequencies, and boost the bass to unbearable boomy levels at other frequencies) are repositioning, equalization, and/or room treatments.

Low frequency waves can easily pass through walls (a mobile home I would guess has limited sound absorption in the low frequencies), and even a room away, the bass can actually sound louder than inside the room where you have the subwoofer. It all depends on how the bass waves interact inside of a particular room. At home, the bass is louder in the kitchen than in my living room, even though the subwoofer is in the living room. If your neighbor's home is right next to yours, then enough bass can definitely pass through the wall and knock stuff off of their wall. A room interaction that cancels out the bass in your room might actually amplify the bass inside your neighbor's home.

I suggest that you try repositioning the Paradigm and take some measurements first. You might be able to find a spot inside of your room that reinforces the bass more and allows you to enjoy fuller bass, while actually turning down the sub level. That will help reduce the sound intrusion into your neighbor's home.

Between the Hsu and SVS, they're both very well regarded and you'd be fine with either one. (Personally, I would go with Hsu because one of the two SVS owners tends to be a bit of a prick on various audio forums, and Hsu gets less into the online pissing matches than some of the other direct vendors. But, the quality of the product and customer support is well regarded with both companies.) But, I suspect that both of them will also transmit a lot more bass into your neighbor's home.

I found it the other way,prick for HSU and Tom helping others with there questions but they are both on forums here and there. I'd go with the SVS because,well i got one. Really cant go wrong with either but in the long run,i dont know why he wants another sub in his living arrangment.

[Woochifer]

Ok thanks guys for the info. As for as overhang goes as in 10" vs 12" what Ii meant to say was that in the price range(under $500) generally speaking most 10" powered subs will be tighter when compared to 12" subs relatively speaking. Sure there are some where the 12" sub can be a responsive as a smaller driver such as in a 10" sub but they are usually more expensive and in some cases much more so. Where my sub is positioned now and my yammie set to 40 Hz low pass there is very little output. So, I will move it around some and see if it makes any differences. The last thing I wanna do is make my neighbor more upset. However, I still want good tight controlled and well defined bass that extends at least to the 25-30 Hz range. No problem turning it down. I have to get along with my neighbors but that does not mean stop living. Hopefully, I can change my living arrangements soon. Once again, thanks kex and wooc I appreciate your insight.

I'm not sure if that's true. I linked an article above, you should look at it. The gist of the article is that the mass of the cone has little to do with the transient response, but more to do with the inductance. Inductance is an electrical property, not a mechanical one. Kex also pointed out that transient response is also quicker if the sub uses a sealed box design.

I would argue that, all other factors being equal, a 12" sealed will likely have a quicker transient response than a 10" ported sub.

The issue that you have right now is that "good tight controlled and well defined bass" is probably more room dependent than anything. Any problems that you have with your neighbors could actually get worse because the extra bass extension can actually create another frequency peak in your neighbor's house! Right now, you should first look at the room placement options before you go look into sub upgrades. Just because the bass sounds anemic in your room does not mean that your neighbors are hearing the same thing. For all you know, it might be unbearably boomy from where they are sitting, and that's strictly a function of the room acoustics and the subwoofer placement.

[kexodusc]

Agreed. There are a lot of perceptions out there about how smaller or lighter woofers produce a "tighter" sound, but there are plenty of other factors involved in how it all sounds. The box design you already hit upon, and Adire Audio published a rather interesting article about how you need to look at the driver inductance rather than the mass of the cone in determining the "speed" of the woofer or its actual transient response.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf

That article is an interesting read, and brings up a good point that inductance also affects transient response. I remember a good heated discussion a few months back on another forum that argued the merits of this paper - apparently they felt the article was a bit to generalized to make the point about inductance, and that the wrong message about mass was delivered....the mass does indeed affect transient response. To use the simplest example, consider adding infinite mass to the woofer. Clearly the transient response will also decrease (there's a point where you need a certain amount of force to be able to physically move a mass at all). Larger the mass, greater the force.

Also, for subs, inductance isn't quite as big a deal as the changes in AC aren't as big as they are in smaller, full-range woofers that cover a wider frequency bandwidth.
I kind of think that Adire's XBL^2 principles might be more beneficial in smaller woofers and tweeters, despite it really getting it's popularity for their subwoofer drivers.