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Curtis
05-27-2005, 12:36 PM
http://www.audioreview.com/speakers/main-speaker/German%20Physiks/PRD_119557_1594crx.aspx

Has anybody here been lucky enoough to hear these? I can't for the life of me imagine how speakers could sound good enough to be worth $250,000.

GMichael
05-27-2005, 12:55 PM
Some people have so much cash it's incredible. You could buy a house for that.

Curtis
05-27-2005, 01:05 PM
If I had $250,000 to blow, I'd spend it on a Ferrari, but that's just me :rolleyes:

I don't care how much money you have or how big of an audiophile you are, there is no way to justify spending a quarter of a million dollars on speakers.

nightflier
05-27-2005, 01:11 PM
If I had $250,000 to blow, I'd spend it on a Ferrari, but that's just me :rolleyes:

I don't care how much money you have or how big of an audiophile you are, there is no way to justify spending a quarter of a million dollars on speakers.

I don't care how much money you have or how big of a car lover you are, there is no way to justify spending a quarter of a million dollars on a car.


Somewhere a pot and a kettle are arguing...

Curtis
05-27-2005, 01:12 PM
kettles > pots

GMichael
05-27-2005, 01:24 PM
When I was in the Philippines there were children in the streets covered with dirt and ripped cloths begging for pennies at every stoplight. $20 there is a full week's pay and can feed a family of 6 for a month. They would probably say that there is no way anyone could have enough money to waist the $600 I spent on my front mains. And they would never understand the need to have a 7.1 system. Why would you need more than 2 speakers?
If I was a billionare I might look into those speakers. After I had fed a small country first though.

RGA
05-27-2005, 02:09 PM
GMichael

Yes there are certainly more important things in the world than stereo gear. Hopefully the company that sold the speakers donates some of the cash.

nightflier
05-27-2005, 03:22 PM
GMichael

Yes there are certainly more important things in the world than stereo gear. Hopefully the company that sold the speakers donates some of the cash.

Is there really an audible difference between $150,000 and $250,000 speakers? Because that extra $100K could feed a whole lot of people.

I think at these prices, the differences are not in quality, but in personality. The speaker might sound different and we can tell ourselves that this is because of an extra $100K. But the reality is that this difference is purely one of distinction between manufacturers and/or models and certainly says nothing about one speaker being better than the other. The same difference could be pointed out between $500 Polk speakers and the same configuration $400 Energy speakers.

Maybe it should be considered obscene that a $250K speaker, or a $400K amp, or a $40K speaker cable is manufactured for the public at all. I can see that for research purposes there might be a need, but for the public?

GMichael
05-28-2005, 06:37 AM
If people will pay, they will make them. Why does a man swinging a bat at a ball for a living make millions? Because people will pay. Right or wrong, it's what is. But I still wouldn't mind hearing those bad boys just once.

Worf101
05-28-2005, 06:48 AM
Is there really an audible difference between $150,000 and $250,000 speakers? Because that extra $100K could feed a whole lot of people.

I think at these prices, the differences are not in quality, but in personality.

Truer words were never spoken. I'd love to see some "double blind tests" featuring a $10,000
versus say a $100,000 speaker and see if folks can consistently pick between the two and which they prefer....

Da Worfster :cool:

Excelsior
05-28-2005, 03:35 PM
I don't care how much money you have or how big of a car lover you are, there is no way to justify spending a quarter of a million dollars on a car.


Somewhere a pot and a kettle are arguing...

Sorry, but in this situation, a Ferrari is clearly > $250,000 speakers.

RGA
05-28-2005, 07:46 PM
Is there really an audible difference between $150,000 and $250,000 speakers? Because that extra $100K could feed a whole lot of people.

I think at these prices, the differences are not in quality, but in personality. The speaker might sound different and we can tell ourselves that this is because of an extra $100K. But the reality is that this difference is purely one of distinction between manufacturers and/or models and certainly says nothing about one speaker being better than the other. The same difference could be pointed out between $500 Polk speakers and the same configuration $400 Energy speakers.

Maybe it should be considered obscene that a $250K speaker, or a $400K amp, or a $40K speaker cable is manufactured for the public at all. I can see that for research purposes there might be a need, but for the public?

yes there will be an audible difference -- whether it's better or not is another matter...but really that applies to every price range not just pricey one. I'll take my sepaker which retails for $3575.00 over the Wilson Sophia ~$12,000.00 or the B&W 801 ~$11,000.00US among others. Speaker companies have a house sound -- if you like the house sound then that;s what you want to buy. If you don;t like the B&W sound it doesn;t matter if they make a $50 million speaker because if it still sounds like B&W a person not liking B&W isn;t going to like it period.

JoeE SP9
05-29-2005, 07:04 AM
I remember when the Wilson WAMM's were introduced. At 100K+ they set a new standard in high prices. I suppose a large part of that cost was because Dave Wilson came to your house and set them up. Like some others here I would buy a Ferrari with 250K. I'll take an F430 please. I promise I'll never ask for another thing in life.

Eric Z
05-29-2005, 08:51 AM
you know who spends that kinda cash on speakers? ever see cribs? people who just have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much money. gmichael makes a good point. professional athletes and actors make millions of dollars because of the general public- i go to cubs games here in chicago and sometimes can't believe i'm paying $100 for me and a buddy to just get in our seats!

i saw an interesting article recently and it read that the great majority of people will never make $1 million in their lifetime (let alone in an eighth of a baseball season)- that would be $50K/year for 20 years.

RGA
05-29-2005, 09:11 AM
Well yes the value of things is out of whack. I took a few acting classes so I won;t get on acting (at least not stage acting) as it isn't as easy as it might look -- and generally these are very educated individuals -- Ralph Fiennes is on the board to review which novels should win the booker prize -- a post not every twit gets.

Baseball -- I'm a big Blue Jays fan -- has gotten out of control since about 1990. Society values actors and sports heros so much. Most know what won the academy award for best picture most years for the last 10 or so years -- how many know who won the last 3 nobel prize winners?? I bet most don't or worse, even care. We (society) care about Britney Spears' last party and whether or not Michael Jackson is a pervert.

Pro sport and the film industry take the public eye off of real issues going on in the world -- they are a pacifier which governments love to keep the public subdued and from thinking. What's worse is I know this and am watching the Blue Jays as I type this.

Florian
05-29-2005, 01:40 PM
yes there will be an audible difference -- whether it's better or not is another matter...but really that applies to every price range not just pricey one. I'll take my sepaker which retails for $3575.00 over the Wilson Sophia ~$12,000.00 or the B&W 801 ~$11,000.00US among others. Speaker companies have a house sound -- if you like the house sound then that;s what you want to buy. If you don;t like the B&W sound it doesn;t matter if they make a $50 million speaker because if it still sounds like B&W a person not liking B&W isn;t going to like it period.
There will be a difference for sure. If you take me, id take a small Apogee Caliper over the AN in a heartbeat. The Wilson over the B&W ....and actually any Apogee or same material ribbon design. Or full range electrostatics... But thats just me

-Flo

RGA
05-29-2005, 04:22 PM
Well yes it's personal taste -- this fellow owns the Apogee Duetta which I also heard -- I would take the AN speakers -- http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/st_spkr_e-d_17-07-2k1.htm

Florian
05-30-2005, 11:54 AM
Well yes it's personal taste -- this fellow owns the Apogee Duetta which I also heard -- I would take the AN speakers -- http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/st_spkr_e-d_17-07-2k1.htm What a suprise :p

BTW, i can post a bunch of reviews too and all Scintilla reviews come to the same conclusion. "Ultimate speaker" equal to Ifinity IRS Series or Alon, Genesis etc....

Noone, i mean none of my Audiophile friends and reviewers (even the ones you read) like the AN. But thats ok, because i think they sound like crap too. AN electronics are good, but not the speakers.

nightflier
05-30-2005, 05:15 PM
yes there will be an audible difference -- whether it's better or not is another matter...but really that applies to every price range not just pricey one.

But isn't it obscene that there is no quality difference between that $250K speaker and the $100K speaker (or a $3K speaker for that matter)? Wouldn't that extra $150K be better spent elsewhere? By creating a market for it, the manufacturer is promoting this obscenity.

Actually I just picked up a pair of studio monitors (for recording studios) that I swear are the best speakers I ever heard to my ears. And they were a lot less than $1K. Maybe I'll change my mind when I hear something better, but for now, these speakers have me astounded.

Regarding the Ferraris, I used to work at a hoity-toidy golf club when I was younger and got to drive some incredible cars. The Ferrari's, I'm afraid, weren't at the top of the list, though. Maybe they were too Italian, I don't know. But if you want real muscle, try a Viper sometime, and the money you save you can give to charity. Speaking of charity, the club members were the type that could afford $100K speakers, and the ones with the nicest sports cars tipped the least. It was the guys with the Cadillacs and fully loaded pickup trucks who were the most generous tippers.

Maybe those $250K speakers are just a way to keep all the $ in that vaulted top .01% of society.

Not really a baseball fan myself, but I sure like college Basketball. At least these guys aren't just playing for the money; at least not yet...

noddin0ff
05-30-2005, 06:12 PM
When I was in the Philippines there were children in the streets covered with dirt and ripped cloths begging for pennies at every stoplight. $20 there is a full week's pay and can feed a family of 6 for a month. They would probably say that there is no way anyone could have enough money to waist the $600 I spent on my front mains. And they would never understand the need to have a 7.1 system. Why would you need more than 2 speakers?
If I was a billionare I might look into those speakers. After I had fed a small country first though.

Oh, jeez. Now I feel like sh!t. Why do I need any speakers? I'm gonna sell all my gear and start making music for myself with found objects. Hubcaps and paper cups. I'll be doing the environment a favor. The soundstage and authenticity of my own drummings will surpass that of any bourgeois studio recording presented through non-biodegradable, luxury electronics. Then, at last, I'll be able to live off the grid and devote more time to growing organic vegetables for orphans.

RGA
05-30-2005, 07:23 PM
What a suprise :p

BTW, i can post a bunch of reviews too and all Scintilla reviews come to the same conclusion. "Ultimate speaker" equal to Ifinity IRS Series or Alon, Genesis etc....

Noone, i mean none of my Audiophile friends and reviewers (even the ones you read) like the AN. But thats ok, because i think they sound like crap too. AN electronics are good, but not the speakers.

No one eh? even the reviewers I read? All An electronics are voiced on the Audio Note E and or Snell Type A (This speaker in many quarters is considered one of the handful best ever). The Apogee series - and the Scintilla - was owned by Peter Qvortrup. When Apogee went out of business he could have scooped up the rights -- but he found them lacking. I have a pretty good idea why ribbon panels and electrostats are so loved in some quarters - but the majority of quarters? No I think not. Please list the reviewers who don't like Audio Note speakers. It seems to me that a number of major magazines felt they were nice enough to buy as either as product to measure amplifiers and other componants, or for their own homes. None of this matter because the same can be said for lots of speakers.

Enjoy your panels -- 'ultimate" though is bogus -- this notion does not exist.

It is not a review I am posting -- it was a guy who owns several speakers Apogee, Genesis etc...he brought in the Audio Note E/D which is less than half the price of the other speakers -- I think if you actually bothered to take the time to read it that is quite a fair review of all the speakers -- clearly he LIKES Apogee since after all he spent his hard earned money to BUY the Duetta.

RGA
05-30-2005, 07:32 PM
Oh, jeez. Now I feel like sh!t. Why do I need any speakers? I'm gonna sell all my gear and start making music for myself with found objects. Hubcaps and paper cups. I'll be doing the environment a favor. The soundstage and authenticity of my own drummings will surpass that of any bourgeois studio recording presented through non-biodegradable, luxury electronics. Then, at last, I'll be able to live off the grid and devote more time to growing organic vegetables for orphans.

Well I think it would be a decent idea to move at least somewhat in the direction you state...unless your Republican and then screw and rape the world for a buck right?

I don't think you have to tune out of society -- If one lives in the west then we play by the west's rules to a point. I don't think we can live guilty all of the time - that said I think everyone can do their part and not buy from what i call the EVIL EMPIRE companies like NIKE and FORD and KFC and a boatload of others. Buying things makes the economy go -- but one can choose whom one is going to buy from.

I think we simply need to leave a smaller footprint on the world when and where possible.

Florian
05-31-2005, 12:16 AM
Oh RGA, you still only read reviews and are in the hands of AN. Listen to Stax Electrostatics 83 or the Apogee's and then listen to real life music and you will easily see why that full blown room node enchancing, colored and different sounding drivers AN will give you many things exept reality.

GMichael
05-31-2005, 05:34 AM
Oh, jeez. Now I feel like sh!t. Why do I need any speakers? I'm gonna sell all my gear and start making music for myself with found objects. Hubcaps and paper cups. I'll be doing the environment a favor. The soundstage and authenticity of my own drummings will surpass that of any bourgeois studio recording presented through non-biodegradable, luxury electronics. Then, at last, I'll be able to live off the grid and devote more time to growing organic vegetables for orphans.
Ha ha ha.. You may laugh but I really felt that way when I got back home. It took me awhile to not feel guilty everytime I bought something for myself.

noddin0ff
05-31-2005, 06:36 AM
Ha ha ha.. You may laugh but I really felt that way when I got back home. It took me awhile to not feel guilty every time I bought something for myself.
I only half-laugh...and I have problems controlling my sarcasm. We live such a privileged life, I sometimes feel guilty buying a double-cheese burger at McD on their dollar menu. It's such a throw away amount of money here, $1. But that buys more food than too many people see in a day. I just thought it was funny that 7.1 elicited guilt but not 2.0. I was wondering were the breaking point was... 3.0...4.1...6.0... (ooops, sarcasm again.) :rolleyes:


not buy from what i call the EVIL EMPIRE companies like NIKE and FORD and KFC
KFC? Evil? Was there a bone in your chicken popcorn? The slaughter of innocent poultry? Why not FOX or the RNC?

There's a lot of poor people who wouldn't have been able to afford a decent pair of shoes if there wasn't a Nike making them cheaply. And although I think Nike can do more to improve working conditions, people choose to work there because it's their best option, which is sad.

And just think of all the open spaces we can build low-rent apartments in because we don't have to use the fields for raising horses! Thank you, Ford!

[disclaimer-Comments were not tested on laboratory animals, take offense at you own risk. For humor purposes only]

GMichael
05-31-2005, 07:01 AM
I picked 7.1 because that's what I have. The 2.0 system, I picked because most people there do have a simple stereo system. Kareoke seems to be their national pass time with 4 TV channels completely dedicated to it. I guess it's an inexpensive way to have fun in the long run.
And sarcasim is our most inexpensive way to have fun. Where would we be without it?

RGA
05-31-2005, 12:14 PM
Oh RGA, you still only read reviews and are in the hands of AN. Listen to Stax Electrostatics 83 or the Apogee's and then listen to real life music and you will easily see why that full blown room node enchancing, colored and different sounding drivers AN will give you many things exept reality.

I have heard apogee and magnepan -- I agree with Woochifer on Apogee at least the one I heard. I still see you avoid the list of all those big audio reviewers who hate Audio Note products. My list of those audio reviewers using Audio note componants and speakers at home or as testing instruments is fairly lengthy. And Constantine likes the Apogee -- he bought it -- but he found a better speaker for enjoying music reproduction in the bottom of the line Audio Note E/D a speaker using chipboard and an MDF wrap no less. hmm Audio Note owners: Constantine Soo, Paul Messenger, Peter Van Wellensworth(Sp? stereophile), Bob Neil, Neil Walker, Art Dudly(Stereophile &Hi-fi choice)), Steven Rochlin and that's a small list off the top of my head. Not that this matters in itself - but please spare us the only good speaker is an apogee routine -- I get why people like ribbons and why they like stats and panels and if you do fine -- but don't try and claim they are more accurate or closer to live -- because they are not. that doesn;t mean I'm saying AN is either BTW -- but many people find Audio Note to be some of the world's best music reproducers - I agree you don't so be it.

RGA
05-31-2005, 12:24 PM
KFC? Evil? Was there a bone in your chicken popcorn? The slaughter of innocent poultry? Why not FOX or the RNC?

There's a lot of poor people who wouldn't have been able to afford a decent pair of shoes if there wasn't a Nike making them cheaply. And although I think Nike can do more to improve working conditions, people choose to work there because it's their best option, which is sad.

And just think of all the open spaces we can build low-rent apartments in because we don't have to use the fields for raising horses! Thank you, Ford!

[disclaimer-Comments were not tested on laboratory animals, take offense at you own risk. For humor purposes only]


Well this is funny - because Nike shoes are puzzling -- I remember when Michael Moore (granted it's Michael Moore) was interviewing the VP of NIKE several year back and he asked him "Did you klnow you have 12 year old giorls working 16 hours a day to produce $8.00 shoes which are being sold to Americans for $200.00? the reply "They're not 12 they're 13. LMAO.

KFC if you want to grow a third testical or some breasts somewhere down the line is a good restaurant to eat at -- otherwise I'd avoid them.

Ford -- if it wasn;t for henry Ford helping hitler kill American/Canadian and british Soldiers and slaughtering jews I might not be so hard on him -- and hey what's a few purposely exploding cars and burning American police officers alive due to cheaping out on parts (per the FORD way. I suppose I'm okay as I'm not the son of a solfier or a jew or a police officer and I never bought a Pinto or a Focus or the tip over SUV's they blamed the tire maker ==== I survived my Ford Vehichle -- Gee i should get one of those T-Shirts. :D

Florian
05-31-2005, 12:51 PM
Your right, the AN's are absolutly amazing. A cheap MDF box with with cheap driver units and overprized silver wire. Almost everyone knows that box colorations are horrible which is why companys go to extremes in building chassys that dont have them. Rise and Falls times are very important too that is why we have light drivers and with strong magnets. But AN knows it better. Long driver excusrions distort the sound but AN knows better. Life size Imaging and off axis response is important, but AN knows it better and thats why they use a small surface area and tiny speaker in order to press the acoustical power of the pipe organ through it. Amazing how you buy into the hype, and know your telling me to stop focing Apogee's on people. I cant force them, since they are not made anymore. Besides i can easily sell my Apogee and buy 3 of your AN's, but why dont i? Because i dont buy the hype and or the advertising space.

Florian
05-31-2005, 01:02 PM
I have heard apogee and magnepan -- I agree with Woochifer on Apogee at least the one I heard. I still see you avoid the list of all those big audio reviewers who hate Audio Note products. My list of those audio reviewers using Audio note componants and speakers at home or as testing instruments is fairly lengthy. Well the funny thing is that ALL Apogee reviews are more than positive. And was done after weeks of listening at home !!

Here is a quote...


The moment when the Scintillas played their first tones in my listening room I will never forget. Immediately they intimated me, the music danced through my room. And I was lost listening to the sparkling clear sound. Only after a few weeks listening to them I regained the criticism necessary to be able to give a neutral test report.

The immediate love for the sound of these speakers at my home came as a kind of surprise to me, none of the public demonstrations of this speaker had convinced me of the qualities of this speaker. Especially this second largest model from Apogee had the reputation of being extremely difficult to drive by any amplifier. This had very clear physical reasons. The quality of every speaker depends on room environment and speaker location in this room, especially dipole speakers are sensitive in this area. For example my own Audio Exclusiv electrostatic speakers have a very thin and cool sound in my listening room. These speakers tend to sound fat and warm in other places. I think it was beneficial that the Scintillas were placed in a room were large dipole speakers had been playing for years. Also the second problem, the requirement for the power amp to supply high currents, had never been a problem when the Outsider Class A Mono-blocks were connected to the Electrostats. The relative low heat level and the ability to adjust itself to the loudspeaker load proved in this point that the Scintilla's are less critical to drive compared with the Audio Exclusiv's. The 1 ohm impedance of the speaker in the mid-high range is a result of the no-compromise approach of driving the ribbons as direct as possible.

Florian
05-31-2005, 01:14 PM
Neil Walker's Audio Gear



Ariston RD90 Turntable
Sumiko MMT tone arm
SAEC cartridge shell
Benz Micro Silver cartridge
Van Den Hul phono cable


Aiwa Stereo Cassette Deck ADF 260


Sony ST-80W Stereo AM-FM Tuner


Vecteur D-2 transport
Audiolab DAX 8000 DAC

Audiomat Phono 1 pre-amp
JPS Labs Superconductor 2 interconnect
Audiomat Arp├Ęge integrated tube amplifier

StudioLab M600 speakers

JPS Labs Superconductor 2 and JPS Labs Superconductor + interconnects; Nirvana S-L speaker cable; Kimber Kables Illuminations D60 digital cable


Do you see AN anywhere? I dont !!

RGA
05-31-2005, 05:54 PM
Your right, the AN's are absolutly amazing. A cheap MDF box with with cheap driver units

Cutrrently all AN speakers K and up use real wood -- Magnepan uses MDF even in their 20.1

The AN woofer is the mostr espensive driver that SEAS makes and SEAS makes some of the best drivers in the world - the tweeters are from Foster and are custom made to AN requirements.


and overprized silver wire.

Well gee at least it is silver and not copper -- and you can buy their speakers without silver if you think it does not matter -- it, however, does. But at least the buyer GETS the option.




Almost everyone knows that box colorations are horrible which is why companys go to extremes in building chassys that dont have them.

So does Audio Note - there is more than one way to skin a cat -- Audio note's method is far more difficult to do well and that is why it required one of the greatest minds in acoustics LL Beranek (read his books) to create the cabinet design.



Rise and Falls times are very important too that is why we have light drivers and with strong magnets. But AN knows it better.

Huh? Audio Note woofers are paper -- they don't come lighter. Paper done well is still considered the best material for bass and midrange reproduction in many quarters-- it's very hard to do well and there is a high rate of waste...but companies solely about profit will choose something less picky for profit considerations not for sonic ones.



Long driver excusrions distort the sound but AN knows better.

Again what are you raving about. Audio Note's drivers act in a radiating pattern and are the antithesis of the long throw piston designs of virtually every other boxed speaker on the market. Their boxes in spite of this manage more bass depth and the widest bandwidth of any speakers their size and volume by a considerable margin on the market.



Life size Imaging and off axis response is important, but AN knows it better and thats why they use a small surface area and tiny speaker in order to press the acoustical power of the pipe organ through it.

Geeze -- you apparently have not seen an Audio Note speaker - the surface area is gigantic for boxed speakers and off axis response is a wekness of panel speakers which usually require the listener's head to be in a vice to get well reproduced sound. Audio note standmounts are some of the biggest standmounts out there. AN independantly tested the Scintilla which only musters a real 40hz in room response -- and requires tons of power to achieve that.




Amazing how you buy into the hype

Peter Qvortrup has spent zero dollars on advertising in the last 6 years -- good speakers don't require tons of advertising and generally they manage to stay in busness as well! (Ahem Apogee could not even beat Magnepan)



Besides i can easily sell my Apogee and buy 3 of your AN's, but why dont i? Because i dont buy the hype and or the advertising space.

Again they don't spend money on advertising so how exactly do they hype -- oh yes some customers love them -- but that is hardly advertising they are responsible for -- the reason customers rave about them is because there is reason to.

Yes I made an error the reviewer was Leonard Norwitz (enjoythemusic.com), Dick Olsher, Steve Guttenberg (of Chesky Records), Ian White, Scott Faller (who does not own some Audio Note stuff because he can't afford it) he has said the best DAC he has ever accounted was the 2.1 but given the stiff price he has to settle for his AH! Njoe Tjoeb. He does own the turntable TT1 however. Others Larry Cox, Stuart McCreary, Vade Forrester, etc.

All i can say is you don't hacve enough experience listening to gear -- which is abundantly obvious to me.

JoeE SP9
05-31-2005, 06:28 PM
Cutrrently all AN speakers K and up use real wood -- Magnepan uses MDF even in their 20.1

The AN woofer (#) is the mostr espensive driver that SEAS makes and SEAS makes some of the best drivers in the world - the tweeters are from Foster and are custom made to AN requirements.



Well gee at least it is silver and not copper -- and you can buy their speakers without silver if you think it does not matter -- it, however, does. But at least the buyer GETS the option.




So does Audio Note - there is more than one way to skin a cat -- Audio note's method is far more difficult to do well and that is why it required one of the greatest minds in acoustics LL Beranek (read his books) to create the cabinet design.



Huh? Audio Note woofers are paper -- they don't come lighter. Paper done well is still considered the best material for bass and midrange reproduction in many quarters-- it's very hard to do well and there is a high rate of waste...but companies solely about profit will choose something less picky for profit considerations not for sonic ones.



Again what are you raving about. Audio Note's drivers act in a radiating pattern and are the antithesis of the long throw piston designs of virtually every other boxed speaker on the market. Their boxes in spite of this manage more bass depth and the widest bandwidth of any speakers their size and volume by a considerable margin on the market.



Geeze -- you apparently have not seen an Audio Note speaker - the surface area is gigantic for boxed speakers and off axis response is a wekness of panel speakers which usually require the listener's head to be in a vice to get well reproduced sound. Audio note standmounts are some of the biggest standmounts out there. AN independantly tested the Scintilla which only musters a real 40hz in room response -- and requires tons of power to achieve that.




Peter Qvortrup has spent zero dollars on advertising in the last 6 years -- good speakers don't require tons of advertising and generally they manage to stay in busness as well! (Ahem Apogee could not even beat Magnepan)



Again they don't spend money on advertising so how exactly do they hype -- oh yes some customers love them -- but that is hardly advertising they are responsible for -- the reason customers rave about them is because there is reason to.

Yes I made an error the reviewer was Leonard Norwitz (enjoythemusic.com), Dick Olsher, Steve Guttenberg (of Chesky Records), Ian White, Scott Faller (who does not own some Audio Note stuff because he can't afford it) he has said the best DAC he has ever accounted was the 2.1 but given the stiff price he has to settle for his AH! Njoe Tjoeb. He does own the turntable TT1 however. Others Larry Cox, Stuart McCreary, Vade Forrester, etc.

All i can say is you don't hacve enough experience listening to gear -- which is abundantly obvious to me.
If there is no box who cares if it is wood or not. I can understand having a personal agenda but there are other very good speakers and components other than Audio Note. Although I prefer panel speakers I'm not stuck on only Magnepan. IMHO Maggy's give the most bang for the buck. I prefer electrostatics myself which I own and given my druthers I would own a pair of Apogee Studio Grands. I do acknowledge other manufacturers. Frankly there are no boxes out there that I have been all that impressed with at that includes things like the big Focal's and Wilson Grand SLAMM's.

bjornb17
05-31-2005, 08:02 PM
unless your Republican and then screw and rape the world for a buck right?


oh come on thats totally inappropriate. leave comments like that to the off-topic forum.

RGA
05-31-2005, 09:32 PM
If there is no box who cares if it is wood or not. I can understand having a personal agenda but there are other very good speakers and components other than Audio Note. Although I prefer panel speakers I'm not stuck on only Magnepan. IMHO Maggy's give the most bang for the buck. I prefer electrostatics myself which I own and given my druthers I would own a pair of Apogee Studio Grands. I do acknowledge other manufacturers. Frankly there are no boxes out there that I have been all that impressed with at that includes things like the big Focal's and Wilson Grand SLAMM's.

You want to read what I have to say a little bit objectively -- granted I tend to be a broken record which makes it difficult at times -- I am not espousing that you or anyone should agree with me. My choice of a speaker at $2k right at this moment in time would be the Magnepan 1.6 -- I would also recommend people to audition Martin Logan despite my reservation of their woofer and their prices...I still think anyone considering speakers in this price range should seek out and listen to planars and stats. One of the reason I tell people to listen to as MANY different designs as possible is that I know how much passion people have for stats and panels -- I am not trying to convert people away from them because i believe if you find something that makes you truly happy then go for it and by all means sing about them on audio forums -- After all this is what I do.

I made the mistake initially of telling people that I was right and i am attempting to save Flo the continual bombardment that he has already been hit with and will continue to be hit with. The fact of the matter is I have heard many stats and planars of the years and i listen to a lot of live music -- I used to play the oboe but my abuility and passion for playing was never real big. For a while my front runners were electrostatics. I also liked certain things that horns did. the trick was that what i liked most about horns electrostatics were really weak in and what stats were strong in horns typically faltered. To me audio Note comes the closest at keeping what I like about both.

You'll get no complaints from me about your assessment of the two boxed speaker makers you mention. As far as I know Audio Note is the only boxed speaker on the market that designs their speakers with a totally different perspective than the Wilson B&W Thiel approaches (and eveyr company that does it like these three). If you read what it is they are attempting to do with loudspeakers it is a very different approach than the vibration deadening design everyone else uses. Bosendorfer who made Audio Note's cabinets was very impressed with the speakers ability to reproduce piano -- I have not heard their new speaker but it seems in parts at least that they have copied some elements of what Audio Note is doing with the cabinet resonance.

Audio Note speakers moreso the J and E do not attempt to eliminate vibration or resonance but use them to reinforce bass frequencies and leave the cabinet as fast as possible at inaudible frequencies (similar to instruments) -- their argument is that when you try and reduce vibration with sheer brute weight the speaker stores the resonances for one and sooner or later you hear the unwanted sound and second when you essentially throw a blanket on the speaker to reduce resonance you ALSO take much of the sound you want heard out of the equation -- so when i listen to virtually eveyr boxed speaker on the market and then an audio note the other bosed speaker sound like a big blanket has been thrown over the midrange and I hear something very off-putting and dull. or I hear a tweeter that tries to overcompensate. If you read about B&W tweeters it's all about trying to store and release resonance -- what B&W needs to do is ALSO do that with their cabinet and not just the tweeter. Peter Qvortrup has been telling B&W designers this for years that the reason their speakers don't work is that their cabinets serve zero audible function.

That is the point of panels -- to take the cabinet out of the equation and it makes good sense - cabinets are a necessary evil for boxed speaker makers so you either try and eliminate the cabinet (see all boxed speakers on the market) or use the cabinet to actually aid what is heard or sacrifice a tion of bass and efficiency and get rid of the cabinet. You takes your pick and their are people in all camps. I think AN is right and I think Panels are next right and a distant third the folks making B&W and Wilson and JM Labs kinda designs. Other people may have these three reversed.

RGA
05-31-2005, 09:35 PM
oh come on thats totally inappropriate. leave comments like that to the off-topic forum.

Come now since when is the truth innapropriate :D

drseid
06-01-2005, 12:02 AM
The AN woofer is the most espensive driver that SEAS makes and SEAS makes some of the best drivers in the world.

While I am not trying to dispute the AN driver claim (as I am not very familiar with their drivers), I am interested in which driver it uses, as I thought the most expensive SEAS drivers were the Excel series drivers, and they are magnesium drivers with a copper phase plug (with the exception of the Millenium tweeter which is a soft dome)... Just checking to see if I have missed a new Excel paper woofer out on the market from them.

As for them making some of the best drivers in the world... No argument there, I have been quite impressed with the Excel series drivers which my own speakers (and several other brands) use... and their regular drivers used in many of the Von Schweikert and Joseph models among others also are superb.

---Dave

Florian
06-01-2005, 04:13 AM
Cutrrently all AN speakers K and up use real wood -- Magnepan uses MDF even in their 20.1

It does not matter what they use since they dont have a BOX !!!! How many times do i have to tell you this untill you get it??

The AN woofer is the mostr espensive driver that SEAS makes and SEAS makes some of the best drivers in the world - the tweeters are from Foster and are custom made to AN requirements.

Wow this really means something eh. Every company will make something for you aslong as you pay them good enough.


Well gee at least it is silver and not copper -- and you can buy their speakers without silver if you think it does not matter -- it, however, does. But at least the buyer GETS the option.

Yeah, but you can buy freaking silver wire from Vacuumstate for like 1/10th the price. But i know, the AN silver wire is better because some review fool said so. I get it....


So does Audio Note - there is more than one way to skin a cat -- Audio note's method is far more difficult to do well and that is why it required one of the greatest minds in acoustics LL Beranek (read his books) to create the cabinet design.

Again, who you consider good is totally unimportant.

Huh? Audio Note woofers are paper -- they don't come lighter. Paper done well is still considered the best material for bass and midrange reproduction in many quarters-- it's very hard to do well and there is a high rate of waste...but companies solely about profit will choose something less picky for profit considerations not for sonic ones.

Aluminium Ribbons are lighter, Electrostatic Panels are lighter! What are you talking about?

Again what are you raving about. Audio Note's drivers act in a radiating pattern and are the antithesis of the long throw piston designs of virtually every other boxed speaker on the market. Their boxes in spite of this manage more bass depth and the widest bandwidth of any speakers their size and volume by a considerable margin on the market.

The off Axis reponse and wide dispersion of and the Apogee ribbons is so wide you can sit 40cm infront of a 1.6m tall and 82cm wide planar driver and experience the sound like a gigantic headphones.

Geeze -- you apparently have not seen an Audio Note speaker - the surface area is gigantic for boxed speakers and off axis response is a wekness of panel speakers which usually require the listener's head to be in a vice to get well reproduced sound. Audio note standmounts are some of the biggest standmounts out there. AN independantly tested the Scintilla which only musters a real 40hz in room response -- and requires tons of power to achieve that.

I have seen and heard the J and you know that!! And it was definetly nothing special and i wouldnt buy it over a small MG12. Your 40HZ inroom response is total crap and you have no friggen clue, all you do is claim some crap from somce reviewers out there that you might as well be married too.
The Scintilla goes down to 22Hz in my room. The small Caliper hits 32Hz in a 25sqm meter room. We measured it with the Tact RCS and the Behringer device. You have never heard any real bass in the first place with tha ****box that needs room reinforcment like a 50$ Polk speaker in radioshack.
The Apogee bass is as fast as the midrange and tweeter area which is something your AN's have yet to learn.


Peter Qvortrup has spent zero dollars on advertising in the last 6 years -- good speakers don't require tons of advertising and generally they manage to stay in busness as well! (Ahem Apogee could not even beat Magnepan)

Thats because YOU do all the work for them !! Every single freaking topic i have to read about some crappy overprized wooden box with a paper driver. Apogee was not beaten by Magnepan nor did they close because of compeition. Read about it, and learn !! Or just ask Peter he will tell you all about it :rolleyes:

Again they don't spend money on advertising so how exactly do they hype -- oh yes some customers love them -- but that is hardly advertising they are responsible for -- the reason customers rave about them is because there is reason to.

Yes I made an error the reviewer was Leonard Norwitz (enjoythemusic.com), Dick Olsher, Steve Guttenberg (of Chesky Records), Ian White, Scott Faller (who does not own some Audio Note stuff because he can't afford it) he has said the best DAC he has ever accounted was the 2.1 but given the stiff price he has to settle for his AH! Njoe Tjoeb. He does own the turntable TT1 however. Others Larry Cox, Stuart McCreary, Vade Forrester, etc.

Yeah funny, how the first one i check is already wrong. I will check more and will find more people that dont use that crap in public.

All i can say is you don't hacve enough experience listening to gear -- which is abundantly obvious to me.

You joker, i listen to a ton of gear and to your AN crap, and all i can tell you is that you kiss more Peter Q's butt then anybody out there. Why do you think nobody takes your AN serious anymore? Because they know that all you hear is AN and you properbly sleep with it at night.

.rant over

gonefishin
06-01-2005, 04:28 AM
Audio Note speakers moreso the J and E do not attempt to eliminate vibration or resonance but use them to reinforce bass frequencies and leave the cabinet as fast as possible at inaudible frequencies (similar to instruments)



You just described a basic principle that's even described in the Loudspeaker Cookbook 6th (speaker building 101) on pages 169-170. This is nothing unique. I'm just not sure how much more basic you could get when considering any enclosure for a loudspeaker. Heck, even rookie's like myself gave mechanical resonance consideration when building the few speakers that I have. But it's just good practice...nothing more.

The problem is...is that the knowledge regarding speakers that you have is relying on advertising and marketing. But you believe it all to be true. Some even refer to it as the Peter Snell approach of tuning cabinet resonances. Nothing new...and certainly nothing exclusive.

You should get the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook and give it a read. You may find it interesting, even though it may debunk many of your current thoughts as being exclusive.

g'day,

dan

Florian
06-01-2005, 04:34 AM
By the way there is a book called The TubePreamp CookBook book is written by Allen Wright who is a friend of mine. Guess what he has ? Apogee Scintilla's, and his chief engenieer? Apogee Scintilla's. I can brag with prominent people too....

Read and learn....or continue being the repeating Parrot of Peter Q!!

http://www.maggiefanclub.de/parrot.jpg

bjornb17
06-01-2005, 06:03 AM
Come now since when is the truth innapropriate :D

having read some of you other posts, it seems you have gone off the deep end already.

gonefishin
06-01-2005, 06:11 AM
Yep...an insult like this is common from RGA...over and over again.

RGA
06-01-2005, 08:34 AM
While I am not trying to dispute the AN driver claim (as I am not very familiar with their drivers), I am interested in which driver it uses, as I thought the most expensive SEAS drivers were the Excel series drivers, and they are magnesium drivers with a copper phase plug (with the exception of the Millenium tweeter which is a soft dome)... Just checking to see if I have missed a new Excel paper woofer out on the market from them.

As for them making some of the best drivers in the world... No argument there, I have been quite impressed with the Excel series drivers which my own speakers (and several other brands) use... and their regular drivers used in many of the Von Scweikert and Joseph models among others also are superb.

---Dave

I'm unaware of new drivers -- SEAS makes the drivers only for Audio Note - when i went to their site I could not find one that looks like it. Though Peter Qvortrup did have a set-up for the SEAS designers to show them their drivers in action. If you're in England you should drop by the AN plant --- you can find out what they had to say. Europe is so cool for this kind of stuff because everything is so close together that they can practically go walk down the street to see what the other guy is doing. It seems to be a closer knot community there. I mean Quad hired Audio note's number two guy to build them one of their top tube amps. These companies go "in" on projects together frequently. Also the SEAS driver I was referring to was the one with the new ALNICO magnet and 98db sensitivity. I have notheard that unit but they are something like !$500.00GBP each - retail I believe. I don't pay attention to this frankly because it doesn't really tell me how good it will sound especially since makers often make adjustments -- AN replaces the magnets and has the ferro-fluid removed on their tweeters and they're also re-wired.

RGA
06-01-2005, 08:40 AM
Yep...an insult like this is common from RGA...over and over again.

Republicans also can't take a ribbing it would seem :rolleyes:

RGA
06-01-2005, 08:49 AM
"Yeah funny, how the first one i check is already wrong. I will check more and will find more people that dont use that crap in public."

You can check most of them here http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/reviewers/

The rest of your post is a rant -- Bring your speakers to the UK -- Peter will gladly put his speakers up against the Scintilla - he already has. Don't lie about what you hear just to shill Apogee. Making a suggestion to someone to listen to a speaker that chances are most people don't have access to anyway I'm surprised ruffles so many feathers. If you want this board to only ever recommend Canadian brands and B&W and Magnepan and no longer made Apogees that is fine by me you're the moderator.

RGA
06-01-2005, 09:06 AM
You just described a basic principle that's even described in the Loudspeaker Cookbook 6th (speaker building 101) on pages 169-170. This is nothing unique.

of course it is nothing unique since LL Beranek was doing it in 1940 - the cabinets were created by beranek -- Snell didn't invent it -- he upgraded it and tweaked it which is essentially what audio Note has done to the Snell. These Type A, E, J, K speaker have been around in one form ar another for ~65 years. AN does not make a claim to the contrary giving credit where it is do - they do the same for their revamped SystemdekII tables and their Voyd Reference tables. Peter recently was amused that as he said his speakers take the most attack on forums and yet they measure the best on the current testing methods. I mean heaven they make SET amps and digital filterless DACs!

Yes there is nothing revolutionary -- that is why it pains him that instead of building good loudspeakers companies would rather compromise and go for looks because looks sell quality correct cabinets do not which is why I deal with people like you who say look the knowledge is out there but instead we have slim expensive standmounts from B&W that have gutless bass can't play loud and have drivers off in lala land doing their own thing and to top that off need a big poweful amp to still not do bass well. Yes they are uncoloured because they take out the resonance (by not attempting to do any bass) and also take out much of the what is on the recording). Of course you don;t know what you're missing until you hear one that isn't missing it. Interestingly it was the Martin Logan Prodigy that first let me hear things on recordings I had not heard before through supposedly uncoloured B&W speakers.

The great thing is that Peter is fluent in 6 languuages so he is not tied to one language view or reading material:LL Beranek is cited by most every book on loudspeaker and opera house design -- he is probably the foremost expert on acoustics. He was also on the team that invented the 33RPM record and phonograph pick-up and this was only hios fiorst year at Harvard. He later got the Harvard Parker Fellowship award. he later became a Faculty Instructor at Harvard. I was chairman of the Boston Symphony Orchestra from 1983-1987. Then I served as full-time volunteer president of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences from 1989-94. Just before that, I was a member of the Board of Overseers of Harvard University from 1984-90.


"What we were doing was creating a sound field. I had to develop a new kind of loudspeaker for this purpose...I was using a combination of the latest electrical equipment, a newly-designed microphone and a special loudspeaker invented exclusively for this purpose, all produced for investigating some of the fundamental principals of acoustics."


EDITOR OF THE JOURNAL OF THE ACOUSTICAL SOCIETY OF America 1950-1959.

L.L Beranek, ACOUSTIC, McGraw-Hill, New York (published by the American Institute of Physics for the Acoustical Society of America)

"Acoustical Analysis of Sound Decay in Rectangular Rooms." Journal of the Acoustical Society of America.

L.L.Beranek: Balanced Noise Criterion (NCB) Curves. J.A.S.A. 86 (2) (1989) p.650-664

(3) L.L.Beranek: Application of NCB Noise Criterion Curves. Noise Control Eng. 33 (2) (1989) p.45-56

(4) L.L.Beranek: Revised Criteria for Noise Control IN Buildings.
Noise Control 3 (1957) p.19-27

(5) L.L.Beranek: Acoustics and Mac Graw-Hill CO (1954) P.428

(6) L.L.Beranek, W.E.Blazier & J.J.Figwer:
Prefered Noise Criteria (PNC) Curves and their Application to Rooms.
J.A.S.A.50 (1971) p.1223-1228

L.L.Beranek, Music, acoustics and architecture , John Wiley & Sons, New York (1962), rist. Krieger, Huntingdon, New York (1979).

Principles of Sound Control in Airplanes (Harvard University Press, 1944)

See L.L.Beranek (editor), Noise and vibration control , Revised Edition, Institute of Noise Control Engineering, Washington, DC (1988).

L. L. Beranek, Concert and Opera Hall, How They Sound, Published for the Acoustical Society of America by the American Institute of Physics, 1996.



The Philosophy of the Variable Room Acoustics System

theaudiohobby
06-01-2005, 09:16 AM
The June update of the AN marketing bulletin :p :mad: :p

gonefishin
06-01-2005, 10:30 AM
Republicans also can't take a ribbing it would seem :rolleyes:




Huh, I hadn't really given it much thought before, but I actually vote for more Democrats than Republicans.

But what sets your comments apart from common "ribbing", from other people, is that these comments commonly find their way in threads or discussions that really don't warrant it. It actually seems as though you harbor anger and hatred toward the "current" USA that would be more in line with an extreme racists.

You seem like a very emotional person that gets obsessed over certain things (like Audio-Note and American government) which may be why you can't seem to separate the two from any and all conversations you have. But again...the anger and hate is what seems to be the difference. If you would continually make these same comments, with the emotion and hatred, directed toward people of color, you would not be tolerated. It's not as though you get caught up in the heat of the discussion and things escalate...this seems to be something much deeper than surface anger.


I would agree though that what AudioNote does is not that extraordinary. But they do have some nice sounding speakers that out perform many of the better known brands such as Paradigm, B&W, current Snell, Monitor Audio and such.

dan

RGA
06-01-2005, 10:48 AM
Huh, I hadn't really given it much thought before, but I actually vote for more Democrats than Republicans.

But what sets your comments apart from common "ribbing", from other people, is that these comments commonly find their way in threads or discussions that really don't warrant it. It actually seems as though you harbor anger and hatred toward the "current" USA that would be more in line with an extreme racists.

You seem like a very emotional person that gets obsessed over certain things (like Audio-Note and American government) which may be why you can't seem to separate the two from any and all conversations you have. But again...the anger and hate is what seems to be the difference. If you would continually make these same comments, with the emotion and hatred, directed toward people of color, you would not be tolerated. It's not as though you get caught up in the heat of the discussion and things escalate...this seems to be something much deeper than surface anger.

Do Bill Maher and Michael Moore hate America because they voice criticism over their current government. I don't hate America or Americans -- I may take some issue with some republicans or what America does to the rest of the world and I may be annoyed at times that manyare easily brainwashed in the United States under the sis boom ba ra ra ra America is the best mentality. Kinda like Bose.

gonefishin
06-01-2005, 12:01 PM
I may be annoyed at times that manyare easily brainwashed in the United States under the sis boom ba ra ra ra America is the best mentality. Kinda like Bose.


so you can relate to how we feel you are with Audio-Note.


Yep, kinda like Bose


take care>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Florian
06-01-2005, 12:05 PM
"Yeah funny, how the first one i check is already wrong. I will check more and will find more people that dont use that crap in public."

You can check most of them here http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/reviewers/

Funny, all in ONE place eh? I guess i know what that means. Take care....

The rest of your post is a rant -- Bring your speakers to the UK -- Peter will gladly put his speakers up against the Scintilla - he already has. Don't lie about what you hear just to shill Apogee. Making a suggestion to someone to listen to a speaker that chances are most people don't have access to anyway I'm surprised ruffles so many feathers. If you want this board to only ever recommend Canadian brands and B&W and Magnepan and no longer made Apogees that is fine by me you're the moderator. If my speakers would not weigh over 220lbs a piece i would. But its easier to carry that cheap particle board speaker down to my place. Also use you eyes and take notice that i only moderate the picture gallery. Also dont lie about frequency responses about other products. I do not recommend Canadian brands or B&W, and even you should have checked that by now !

Florian
06-01-2005, 12:08 PM
so you can relate to how we feel you are with Audio-Note.


Yep, kinda like Bose


take care>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I second that all the way !!

But at least the BOSE marketing is fun to read, while RGA's is not. :p

bjornb17
06-01-2005, 01:16 PM
Do Bill Maher and Michael Moore hate America because they voice criticism over their current government. I don't hate America or Americans -- I may take some issue with some republicans or what America does to the rest of the world and I may be annoyed at times that manyare easily brainwashed in the United States under the sis boom ba ra ra ra America is the best mentality. Kinda like Bose.

The problem that we have here, RGA, is not that you have certain beliefs. You're welcome to believe and think whatever you like, just like anyone else on the forums here. The part that is inappropriate is that there is a off-topic forum just for comments like yours, yet you still bring off-topic issues to the other sections of the forum. Many of us come here to talk about a common interest, in this case, audio. Many of us, myself included, come here to be active in our hobby while putting other concerns behind us for the time being.

If you would like to discuss topics besides speakers, your best bet would be to go to the off-topic boards rather than bother the people here who are trying to stay on-topic.

RGA
06-01-2005, 01:50 PM
bjornb17

Start on page one -- I hardly took the thread off course - I replied to other poster's comments with one broadside sentence against the right. That is hardly initiating taking the thread off topic.

GMichael
06-01-2005, 02:03 PM
So, where can we go to hear these 1/4 mil speakers anyhow? Does anyone know of a dealer in the NYC area? I'd love to walk in with jeans and a T-shirt just to see if they'd even talk to me.

RGA
06-01-2005, 02:21 PM
If my speakers would not weigh over 220lbs a piece i would. But its easier to carry that cheap particle board speaker down to my place. Also use you eyes and take notice that i only moderate the picture gallery. Also dont lie about frequency responses about other products. I do not recommend Canadian brands or B&W, and even you should have checked that by now !

You can go to Stereophuile and hi-fi Choice Hi-fi news, What Hi Fi and then we can start on the foreign magazines.

You know the great thing is negative advertising is still advertising --- people will seek out AN with that little childish picture of yours and I hope they run them up against magnepan and Apogee -- it will be very educational to people indeed. They will certainly no longer associate weight of the speaker with anything.

Better yet just go to the UK -- flights are $199.00Cdn from Canada just seen on TV. Bring anyone and any Apogee you wish: Call ahead because he may still have the Scintilla lying around - he has some Avanteguarde horns which despite their massive size and weight fo you to try as well.

From Peter to an IRS beta and Aopogee Scintilla owner:

"If you are ever in the UK I shall be happy to demonstrate to you that the joke is on the people who need 2 cubic meters and 4 12 inch woofers to do what is possible with a single 8 inch woofer.

I don't know where you think the Apogee's get their bass from, I have had several different pairs including the Scintallas and none of them had any significant amount of really deep bass.

Your Apogees have separate coil woofers?

The Scintilla never measured more than about 40 Hz when I had them and they needed a billion watts to give any impression of bass energy, at least as far as my definition of real bass goes, they died very quickly from metal fatigue when pressed hard with a big amplifier for a couple of hours.

The square area needed from panels to give any really low bass depth is considerable, and the Apogees just don't cut it here, I am sorry to say

Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup

From another poster GTF

"Not only that but how can anyone stand to listen to the music(on the Scintillas) moving back and forth between the drivers. Simular to listening to those big Infinity's. You can hear the sound from each individual driver as it moves up and down the frequency range.

Dr.Cope
"BTW - I've owned and sold Apogees and Maggies, and owned Quad '57's. Each does some very seductive things. Each has a a flaw or flaws that I found so distracting I had to give them up. For that matter, I owned DQ-10's, (several times!) which were a fascinating exercise in non-boxy design using 5 dynamic drivers. It was a lovey speaker, too, but integrating 5 drivers to a seamless blend is really an impossible task, and so they, too, fell by the wayside.

A major shortcoming, for me, with all of the above, except the Quad, is that to get them going requires a fairly high-powered solid state amp, the sound of which I never much liked, and since hearing SET's in the mid 90's, have given a very wide berth."



I have tried to give you outs on this forum several times -- IT'S A MATTER OF TASTE -- You are not going to convince me that Apogee is a particularly good speaker and I won't convince you that anything other than Apogee is better than Apogee. So going on about it isn't going to help...though I must say it will further advertsise Audio Note AND Apogee. And frankly anytime we're not talking about all the companies that ALWAYS get talked about (ala B&W --oops I just mentioned them) is at least somewhat good in my view. :p

RGA
06-01-2005, 02:32 PM
So, where can we go to hear these 1/4 mil speakers anyhow? Does anyone know of a dealer in the NYC area? I'd love to walk in with jeans and a T-shirt just to see if they'd even talk to me.

The E/Sogon is made to order from what I can tell($125,000US pair) -- and you'd be waiting a long time for them -- their top amp(Mono-blocks) are ($250,000US) takes 6 months and 1000 hours to build -- they use the facility at Ferrari to get the tolerances and their machine is the only one ion the world that cuts the mustard -- or as legend has it :D

The speakers use over $40,000US worth of silver and takes time to acquire (so at least you know they have melt down value). :p

These are not the one's listed in the beginning of the thread mind you -- but for the E there is a dealer in Manhatten. Chesky records brass showed the Audio Note room in the late 1990s when Enjoythemusics top editor bought the system -- maybe it's still there -- don't know Manhatten at all or New York for that matter -- it's on my list of places to see - especially a Yankees game against my Jays or the Red Sox that would be fun.