2 medium sub or 1 big sub???

[popolz]

I have a paradigm PDR-12 (150W RMS / 450 Peak) and it was "assisted" w/ a no name 60W RMS sub... now I have sold this sub which was part of a "surround package" and it doesn't sound as good with only one sub

My question is... should I buy a second PDR-12 or PS-1000 (200RMS / 750Peak) or sell my PDR and only get one PW-2200 (400W RMS/1500Peak) ????

[bjornb17]

how about 2 big subs? just kidding. I really dont know which would be better. Maybe get a second sub similar to the one you already have to save money, and the hassle of having to sell the current sub.

I think a lot of people will suggest having 2 medium subs to assist in making the bass in the room more uniform.

[kexodusc]

Without knowing how big your room is, and assuming you use this for home theater and music equally (or slightly more for movies) I'd say go with the PW-2200 or another sub along those lines in terms of performance.
My own experiences with "stereo" subs has been quite poor, though I'm about to build a 2nd to see if I can't make it work this time, but all that aside, the PW-2200 is just a far superior sub to the PDR-12. In the strictest sense, the PW-2200 is more than DOUBLE the subwoofer the PDR-12 is. The low response is a whopping 6Hz lower...doesn't seem like much, but those last 6 Hz are as much bass as the next 22 Hz or so in terms or real bass - the kind of window rattling, chest pounding, bowl-movement bass you want. It's got twice the power and longer excursion than the PDR-12 too. Just a better sub all around by far! What's more, it's more musical than the PDR-12, which isn't the most note-scaling sub I've heard.

I just got rid of my PW-2200, it had usuable bass down to about 20 Hz or so, I think the -3 dB was around 27 Hz. Not a bad unit at all. You might consider the VTF-3 from Hsu Research as well.
A second PDR-12 is going to add 3 dB or so of volume, and might even out the response in your room a bit better, but it isn't going to play deeper, more accurately, or sound any better than what you have now. The PW-2200 will do all that and then some.

[popolz]

Well my room is a little weird...

sorry for the bad graphic but it's alot better then my trying to explain how it really his...


http://upload.popolz.com/pics/room.bmp



my current sub and fronts are where it's 8' wide at the top of the picture... before it was at the bottom but it didn't sound well at all... my listening position is ~11' from the top wall as it's where my 106" screen is so I can't be closer.

I mostly watch movies and play xbox/ps2. I barely listen to music and when I do it's mostly through my xbox or on my pc.

kexodusc: thanks for the input!

i think i'll go shopping tomorrow... maybe keep the PDR and add a PW... I'll see how much $$$ the PW is...

[eqm]

like kex, i would recommend doing the one big one, but add a parametric eq to even out the bass response along the tone ranges.

doing two subs will no doubtedly cause cancellation of certain tones and can very possibly sound worse than a single, clean sub.

still....do the parametric eq no matter which way you do it.

[Geoffcin]

I have a paradigm PDR-12 (150W RMS / 450 Peak) and it was "assisted" w/ a no name 60W RMS sub... now I have sold this sub which was part of a "surround package" and it doesn't sound as good with only one sub

My question is... should I buy a second PDR-12 or PS-1000 (200RMS / 750Peak) or sell my PDR and only get one PW-2200 (400W RMS/1500Peak) ????

Then adding another one makes sense. Your going to get sticker shock when you see how much a PW-2200 costs compared to the PDR, and your really not going to get that much more bass from it. It will go slightly lower than your PDR-12, but louder...not by much.
The extra coverage you get from dual subs is something that you've grown used to, and are missing. In my opinion one sub, no matter how big it is, isn't going to give you what your looking for.

[popolz]

Geoffcin: yeah I looked at the price online a few minutes ago... dang... it's almost the double of my PDR (in my Area).

I don't really need to get a lower frequency response... all I need is a little more power. In some movies my PDR will "bottom out"... I was thinking of getting a second one so I could lower the gain a little and "divide the load" on 2 subs.


kexodusc: 3dB, isn't like twice the "volume" so to speak?

[bjornb17]

Geoffcin: yeah I looked at the price online a few minutes ago... dang... it's almost the double of my PDR (in my Area).

I don't really need to get a lower frequency response... all I need is a little more power. In some movies my PDR will "bottom out"... I was thinking of getting a second one so I could lower the gain a little and "divide the load" on 2 subs.


kexodusc: 3dB, isn't like twice the "volume" so to speak?

thats incorrect. a 10db increase is twice the volume (and takes 10 times the power). a 3db increase is only a very slight volume increase (but still takes twice the power).

if you look at it backwards, if you decrease something by 10 db, it requires about 1/10 the amount of power. and if you decrease volume by 3db, the volume will only be slightly less, but only take 1/2 the power.

[kexodusc]

Yeah 3dB isn't that much in terms of audibility. The PW-2200 will play more than 3 dB louder though (while remaining much cleaner and more defined). But if your room isn't huge, and a few bottom Hz aren't important to you then I can see why a 2nd sub would be more beneficial in your room for evening out the response, adding a bit more punch, etc. The PDR-12's been popular for many years now (my 2nd sub was the PDR-10 about 7 years or so ago...)

When using 2 subs, ideally they'd be the same model of course (or very close).
You can extra 3 dB yourself into the poorhouse with this stuff, it's all fun and nice to have, but try to balance what you want with what you need.
Lots of used PDR-12's on ebay or audiogon.com - can save you some money if you're not opposed to buying used.

Good luck.

[popolz]

ah well.... I went and bought a PW-2200... I'll keep my PDR-12 to assist it and i'll see what it does.

[kexodusc]

ah well.... I went and bought a PW-2200... I'll keep my PDR-12 to assist it and i'll see what it does.

ROFLMAO:

So much for fiscal responsibility :D

[popolz]

at my Local store... the PDR-12 was ~750$ with taxes when I bough it... now it's roughly with the new price list... 800$ :(

the PW-2200 was 1265$ with taxes... sooo I played safe for only a few hundred bucks.. :D



edit: BTW that's CAN $

[kexodusc]

Wholly crap...those things have both gone up since I bought mine (I always bought my PSB/Paradigm on trips to Canada).
The PW-2200 use to be more than a $300 difference in price from the PDR-12...I find it hard to believe anyone would take the PDR-12 over the PW-2100 for about the same price...where do the PS units fit in?

[popolz]

899 Ps1000
999 Ps1200


edit: when I bought my PDR-12 just after Christmas the Servo-15 was 1799... now it`s 2599 :eek:

[kexodusc]

I'm going to have to have another listen to Paradigm's latest subs...I just sold a v.2 PW-2200 and last year a v.2 PW-2100 I bought used...I paid less than $900 for the 2200, and I think the retail on the 2100 was $800 cdn...
Paradigm's really pricing their subs out competition IMO...hmmm.

[popolz]

yeah they're getting pricy...


hopefully the PW-2200 will live up to my expectation... if not I'm done with them... I'll go the SVS route...

[nightflier]

I was thinking of getting a second one so I could lower the gain a little and "divide the load" on 2 subs.

So if a less expensive sub was capable of getting down to 30 Hz. and your more expensive sub all the way down to 20 Hz. at sustained decibel levels, how would these be physically connected? And how would you "divide" the load?

I can understand how two identical subs would work in a typical HT setup, but wouldn't different subs create some directionality to the low frequency sounds, particularly for the 30Hz.+ sub? How would you direct the proper frequency ranges to the desired sub?

[Geoffcin]

ah well.... I went and bought a PW-2200... I'll keep my PDR-12 to assist it and i'll see what it does.

And tie down everything that can move, cause your in for a whole lotta shakin!

[kexodusc]

So if a less expensive sub was capable of getting down to 30 Hz. and your more expensive sub all the way down to 20 Hz. at sustained decibel levels, how would these be physically connected? And how would you "divide" the load?

I can understand how two identical subs would work in a typical HT setup, but wouldn't different subs create some directionality to the low frequency sounds, particularly for the 30Hz.+ sub? How would you direct the proper frequency ranges to the desired sub?

Good point. There shouldn't be any directionality from a sonic localization perspective down that low, a wavelength is going to be so big it'll hard to accurately judge the source and human ears aren't terribly sensitive below 100Hz anyway, but localizing it might be easy enough if one side of the room is vibrating like crazy and the other only mildly. There could be some phase issues as well if not setup right...

I have that issue now in my room. I don't hear the sub's location, output below 90Hz or so and the thing becomes sonically invisible, but I can feel the air moving and vibrations getting stronger towards the subs location. Pretty hard to convince my brain it's NOT coming from that big box on the one side. My windows and some of my room's structure sure loves to rattle at exactly 18 Hz and 21 Hz too, a problem I'm quite happy to have for the moment.

[cam]

I checked out my local Paradigm dealer here in Canada and the PW-2200 retails for $1200 but rest assured, you can take one for $1000 plus taxes. And those PS subs can be had for $200 to $300 less then retail. Paradigm sale guys are very motivated to sell even if they come across like they are not. The potential buyer holds all the cards, just don't act like you are going to fold, and you will get a deal. And by the way there popolz, I do have a PW-2200, and by itself it smokes my previous two subs combined which were a PDR-10 v3 and a PS-1000 v3. Since I see how financially restraintive (is that a word) you are, I have a feeling that if you are use to having two subs to even out all the bass, once you hook up the Pw-2200, you will be thinking, man, I gotta get me another. I can tell you I sure want two of them but a big widescreen tv is next on my list.

[popolz]

And how would you "divide" the load?




what I meant is instead of having 1 sub giving 100% of it's capacity, have 2 subs giving 90% for less distortion... just by lowering the gain on the sub...

frequency wise I don't want to split them.



cam: I'll go with 1 PDR and 1 PW and see how it goes...


Geoffcin: hopefully it won't get my screen to swing back and fort too much as it's only attached from the ceilling hehehe

[popolz]

well I've received my PW-2200 and I paired it with my PDR-12... one word can describe the bass now....


INSANE :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I watched the "darla scene" in finding nemo, a few scenes of twister, a part of we were soldier and the beginning of SW attack of the clones... everything was rattling...

I think the PW-2200 was a good choice over 2 PDR-12 :D


Now if I can receive my SPL meter I'll tune everything with AVIA. :)

[PAT.P]

Popolz ! Congrad hope it meets your expectation. I have the PS -1000 from Paradigm and its combine with a Dalhquist 8" bash amp sub and its great combined .Just bought a yamaha on weekend to replace a sony and even more bass know ,it also lets me combined the bass from my towers and sub and everything shake in the house .Once again enjoy .Pat.P

[popolz]

Pat P.: My friend has a PS1000 v3 (175W RMS) it sounds great and have a good punch...

I was hoping to almost get the same punch with the PDR but it was a deception :(
When we tried it at his place it had more punch though... he has a raised floor but I don't... i'm on a concrete floor...

anyway the PW2200 is FAR beyond my expectation! :D