Episode III Review (spoilers, sort of)

[Kam]

Alrighty, here goes!

Ep III starts off with a bang, as Anakin and Obi-Wan go into the thick of battle to save Palpatine who has been "kidnapped" by General Grievous. The space battle between the droid ships and the republic ships was awesome. The most realistic space battles of the first three movies. (personally i prefer the original old version trilogy battles better, since those were actually physically existing ships, not all cg). But as the technology has improved, you can definitely see it on screen. I read that Spielberg helped lucas out and storyboarded the opening action sequence and another unnamed action sequence. The humor is finally well placed in this opening sequence with R2D2 providing all of it. BUT... go into it knowing the dialogue is horrible, and you won't be dissapointed.

Anakin and Obi-wan waltz through Grievous's ship fairly easy, which is understandable, since this has all been orchestrated by palpatine from the get-go. Now starts the descent of Anakin as they face off against Dooku once again, with pretty much the same result. Obi-Wan gets knocked out, and Anakin faces dooku alone... and kills him.

(Spoiler Alert/Issue: It's kind of hard to have any spoilers given that everyone already knows exactly what happens in this movie. THe only issue left is the "how" it all goes down, since everyone know exactly the "what" of what happens, so i'll try not to give any true spoilers, but... we all pretty much know who lives, dies, is born, exiled, etc. )

So... now we get bogged down in dialogue and plot. and here's the only weak issue of this (and all star wars' (not including empire) written by lucas) The dialogue is horrible. It's pretty much on par with epII's grand declarations of love. He's pretty much fallen into the whole "tell-don't-show" trap. Three characters separately tell us "anakin has grown close to the chancellor" and so we just have to accept it. there's no attachment or building up or showing how that closeness develops, much like anakin's multiple professed love for padme/amidala (side note, they just keep calling her padme in this one, but i thought amidala was her real name and padme was her 'servant/disguise' name, but... i digress). The love story with anakin/padme is pretty.... well... non-existent. They say they love each other in unbelievably wooden dialogue.........
"You look beautiful"
"It's because i'm in love."
"No, it's because I'm in love."
"Do you mean love is blind."
"No but kam just lost interest in this scene."
"I know, i love you too."
.........but we never actually see them loving each other. Again, minor digression, back to the action. So... palpatine continues to tempt anakin over to the dark side, telling him or sith legends, sith heroes, sith powers to save people from death, all coinciding with anakin's premonition that padme will die in child birth. he definitely won't let that happen, and so... dum dum dum... wants to learn from palpatine about the dark side of the force if that means padme will be saved. Done! Descent has happenned, arise Darth Vader. Was thinking, given the ridiculously non-existence of his descent/tendency towards the darkside in the first two movies (other than him commiting mass slaughter on the sandpeople, which ironically brought him closer to padme (who was then called amidala, who had a penchant for abusive boyfriends i guess)) he now just drops to his knees and pays homage to darth sidious aka palpatine after two bad dreams. OK.. weak on the execution but understandable in premise: he wants to save padme, only way to do it is by going to the darkside. The jedi are immediate outcasts and palpatine pulls his aces out, executes everyone, establishes the empire, DONE!.

Vader now goes around and kills all the lil kiddie jedi's at the temple and the storm troopers now kill all the jedi who they were once helping upon executive order from palpatine. Which leads to the dual showdowns... Yoda vs. Palpatine concurrently with Obi-Wan vs. Vader (part 1). This one really shows yoda as a serious badass, very cool fight and the best executed one of them all. (the wasted what could have been an amazing fight sequence between obi-wan and the four armed, light-saber wielding Grievous - that fight had the best potential, but they cheesed out with closeup action and obi-wan somehow just chopping his hands off)
The obi-wan/vader fight was fairly sweet, had some cool moves, but overall, i still think the maul/obiwan/qui-gon fight from the first one has outdone (technically) anything else in any of the star wars movies, of not any sword fight movie period.
Of course... obi-wan wins, trashes vader pretty bad and then the finale, with the simultaneous birth of the twins (from an amazingly skinny padme, not sure where she was carrying the kids, but it wasnt in her non-existent tummy) and the birth of vader as we all grew up knowing him: james earl jones. Palpatine tells vader that it was vader himself who killed padme and thus his pain, anguish, hate become all consuming with a passionate "Nooooooooooo" its all history.

On the performance side, much better all around, but held together and saved by Ewan McGregor who is one of my favorite actors and somehow transcends the words he's given to speak. He was perfectly cast and really elevates the material. I'd compare him to what Harrison Ford did with Solo. THe dialogue even then was pretty crappy, but Ford elevated it with his performance. Ewan McGregor does the same here. His dialogue isnt any better, but he is just so genuine and believable, that whatever he says, you buy. Just watch the trailer, and the hurt in his voice with the: "You were the chosen one!!!!" line. SOO good. Ian McDiermid (sp?) is great as the weasle-y emperor, pulling anakin's strings like a master, good badguy. Everyone else is better, but... given where they were in ep1/2, they could only move up on performances. Special effects... 5/5 stars, amazing and even the cgi characters were all MUCH better, including yoda, who looked better than he did in the other two. That being said, there is a LOT of cgi in this movie, and it was shot on digital cameras, no film used. However, i couldnt tell. They used the new sony cine-alta cams with direct capture to a harddrive (no tape capture), and they take a pretty sweet picture i'd say. look of the film, however, was still just... eh, i dont know, nothing like empire, which is how it would compare, being the darkest of the new trilogy as empire was of the original. was dark in tone and themes, just visually so stunning and every frame filled with SO much, that you didnt get the "feel" that it was dark, inspite of dark things happenning.

So.. that's pretty much the plot, which everyone pretty much should know. Overall, i enjoyed it a lot. the best of the original three by far, not the least of which is because jar-jar isnt in it (other than walking in padme's funeral). Now for some nitpicky issues/ spoilers. If you dont want to read my ranting or any potential 'real' spoilers, dont read on.
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Luke is born first. Then comes leia. about 30 seconds apart. luke starts crying immediately, laying the foundation to his character quite appropriately.

Vader is said to be stronger than the emperor himself, which he does exhibit in return of the jedi... if this is so, and he has such a command over both the light and dark side of the force, then how the hell doesnt he know he's got his own daughter standing in front of him at the beginning of Star Wars!!??? She's right there mouthing off to him!! He doesn't have a clue.

The whole mystery to the dissapearing body jedi thing is revealed. It's qui-gon - who somehow, post death, figured it out. so that now, when a strong enough jedi (basically the only two left yoda/obi) die, their bodies dissapear ala qui-gon's teachings from beyond the grave. rather than like everyone else, who just have holes in them.

Why the hell does general grievous have a wheeze, cough, and limp? he's a cyborg/robot. and pretty much part of a state-of-the-art facility, so i figured he could have gotten a tune-up. and they made him a coward and weasle, which didnt seem to fit. he's killed enough jedi to carry their lightsabers as trophies on his belt, is this great feared commander (supposedly) but in action, always acts the coward until he finally faces obi-wan 4 on 1, then 3 on 1, then 2 on 1, then 1 on 1, then runs. HUGE potential with this character i thought, wasted.

that's all she wrote. Thumbs up from me, VERY enjoyable movie, very entertaining, a lot of good fun. all the above is nitpicky stuff, just bothered me, but not enough to hurt the movie. best of these three, and i'd say above or at least on par with Return of the Jedi. Still no where close to empire, or even star wars.

peace
k2
:):):):)

[eisforelectronic]

I loved everything about this movie! I thought the dialogue and acting was much improved. When comparing EP III to the other 5 movies, I almost couldn't believe the evil that was going on. It really gave new meaning to EP IV's title, A New Hope!

[kexodusc]

Kam, I couldn't have said it much better myself...the pace of this movie was much faster, and delivery stronger than Ep I and II...
This was fantastic, despite the few minor annoyances again...(well, all the Star Wars were annoying in some ways)...
This ranks #2 in my books only behind Empire....which is amazing considering there were no real plot twists, only details presented...Hayden Christiansen (or however it's spelled) really stepped up the acting a notch...which makes me wonder if the director was influencing his mediocre job in Ep. II...

Man that Darth Sidious is one evil bastard. And Ian McDiarmid played it to perfection...

[eqm]

Vader is said to be stronger than the emperor himself, which he does exhibit in return of the jedi... if this is so, and he has such a command over both the light and dark side of the force, then how the hell doesnt he know he's got his own daughter standing in front of him at the beginning of Star Wars!!??? She's right there mouthing off to him!! He doesn't have a clue.

There's some debate about this. The answer Lucas seems to use is that DV didn't know there were two children being born, and even with that, he assumed that Padme (which is her real name; Amidala was the name she took on when she was elected Queen) had died and the children died with her. Efforts were made to hide the fact that the children were born in the first place (see the funeral scene). Luke he doesn't even sense until he encounters him during the dogfight, "the force is strong with this one." During the transmission with Palpy during ESB, he's obviously lying to the Emperor about knowledge of "the son of Anakin Skywalker". They're both playing each other, and Vader's talk with Padme after the turn illuminates that.


Why the hell does general grievous have a wheeze, cough, and limp? he's a cyborg/robot. and pretty much part of a state-of-the-art facility, so i figured he could have gotten a tune-up. and they made him a coward and weasle, which didnt seem to fit. he's killed enough jedi to carry their lightsabers as trophies on his belt, is this great feared commander (supposedly) but in action, always acts the coward until he finally faces obi-wan 4 on 1, then 3 on 1, then 2 on 1, then 1 on 1, then runs. HUGE potential with this character i thought, wasted.

The Clone Wars cartoon, which was set to be a lead-in to the movie, shows Mace Windu crushing Grevious' lungs during the last chapter. I guess lucas wanted you to watch that before you see the movie.

[Kam]

[QUOTE=eqm]There's some debate about this. The answer Lucas seems to use is that DV didn't know there were two children being born, and even with that, he assumed that Padme (which is her real name; Amidala was the name she took on when she was elected Queen) had died and the children died with her. Efforts were made to hide the fact that the children were born in the first place (see the funeral scene). Luke he doesn't even sense until he encounters him during the dogfight, "the force is strong with this one." During the transmission with Palpy during ESB, he's obviously lying to the Emperor about knowledge of "the son of Anakin Skywalker". They're both playing each other, and Vader's talk with Padme after the turn illuminates that.

QUOTE]

Now the emperor ends in ROTS by telling vader that it was vader himself who killed padme, and therefore bringing "true" the vision that anakin had concerning padme's death. so vader then doesnt even know he has one child, let alone two, so that can account for the confusion BUT, like you said, he did sense 'the force is strong with this one" while hunting down luke in star wars. so i still dont get how he doesnt at least sense the force in leia?

Then in empire, he wants luke to join him, and this part is consistent given what he said to padme, that he could overthrow the emperor, and especially with Luke by his side, since husband/wife couldnt rule the galaxy, well father/son certainly could.

Also was it in empire or ROTJ, i'll have to go back and watch this again, where vader says 'obi wan was wise to hide her from me' after discovering luke had a sister? this could throw off my theory below, if he said this in empire, will have to check. cant remember if this was when luke faught pops in the freezing chamber, or if this was when he fought him in front of the emperor.

and then definitely in empire, on degobah, this exchange i dont exactly remember, so if anyone else remembers, chime in, i thought after luke leaves and obi wan says he is the last hope, yoda says, 'no, there is another.' well.... yeah, they BOTH know that, they both were there on luke/leia's birth and both know them to be the children of anakin, and both know they have the force in them, obviously luke's is stronger, but leia has it as well. Unless i just dont remember that scene, i remember it being as if Yoda was telling obi wan there is one last jedi out there as if obi wan didnt know.

personally, IMHO, just my two cents, i think it's because lucas hadnt really planned this story out as much as he would have us believe and didn't come up with leia as luke's sister until AFTER empire and definitely not until at least after star wars (depending on the whole "your thoughts betray you... a seeester" line from vader being in Empire or ROTJ). i think, just a complete shot in the dark, that he did it to solve the love triangle forming between luke, leia, and han without having any animosity between his two male characters and keep them best friends. i mean, lucas's 'romantic storylines/scenes/dialoge' have as much edge to them as perfect circle. and you mean to tell me he KNEW before hand he was having a brother/sister make out scene on purpose? that's pretty edgey stuff even nowadays (see Eurotrip), let alone back then, to have luke "flaunt" leia's kiss in front of solo. Woulda been awesome if Han used that line, "Hey Luke, here's an interesting fact... YOU MADE OUT WITH YOUR SISTER!"

[eqm]

[QUOTE=eqm]There's some debate about this. The answer Lucas seems to use is that DV didn't know there were two children being born, and even with that, he assumed that Padme (which is her real name; Amidala was the name she took on when she was elected Queen) had died and the children died with her. Efforts were made to hide the fact that the children were born in the first place (see the funeral scene). Luke he doesn't even sense until he encounters him during the dogfight, "the force is strong with this one." During the transmission with Palpy during ESB, he's obviously lying to the Emperor about knowledge of "the son of Anakin Skywalker". They're both playing each other, and Vader's talk with Padme after the turn illuminates that.

QUOTE]

Now the emperor ends in ROTS by telling vader that it was vader himself who killed padme, and therefore bringing "true" the vision that anakin had concerning padme's death. so vader then doesnt even know he has one child, let alone two, so that can account for the confusion BUT, like you said, he did sense 'the force is strong with this one" while hunting down luke in star wars. so i still dont get how he doesnt at least sense the force in leia?

The general idea is, that with ob1's help, luke began to explore his force ability. leia had no idea that she was even force sensitive and would not know to express that ability, whatever ability she had. this is still consistent with how qui-gon found anikin. once he started using his abilites, qui-gon began to feel the presence. check out lucas' commentary on the PM dvd for a little more.

Also, in ROTJ, Vader talks to Palps, "And I am sure Skywalker is with them"
Palps: "Strange that I have not felt him...Are you sure your feelings are clear on this matter, Lord Vader?"---or something along those lines...

Once Vader comes in contact with Luke (and Luke is using his Force abilites) he nails that bond that even Palps can't get.



Then in empire, he wants luke to join him, and this part is consistent given what he said to padme, that he could overthrow the emperor, and especially with Luke by his side, since husband/wife couldnt rule the galaxy, well father/son certainly could.

Also was it in empire or ROTJ, i'll have to go back and watch this again, where vader says 'obi wan was wise to hide her from me' after discovering luke had a sister? this could throw off my theory below, if he said this in empire, will have to check. cant remember if this was when luke faught pops in the freezing chamber, or if this was when he fought him in front of the emperor.

ROTJ..."And now your thoughts betray her too". It was when Yoda dies that Luke finds out...and tells Leia on Endor before he turns himself into DV.


and then definitely in empire, on degobah, this exchange i dont exactly remember, so if anyone else remembers, chime in, i thought after luke leaves and obi wan says he is the last hope, yoda says, 'no, there is another.' well.... yeah, they BOTH know that, they both were there on luke/leia's birth and both know them to be the children of anakin, and both know they have the force in them, obviously luke's is stronger, but leia has it as well. Unless i just dont remember that scene, i remember it being as if Yoda was telling obi wan there is one last jedi out there as if obi wan didnt know.

I think you hit the nail on the head there...
OB1; "that boy is our last hope"
Yoda: "no, there is another."

It is a little bit of a stretch, unless......you reconcile it by having OB1 believe that Luke was the last hope to defeat the emperor, and that he and Yoda disagreed with the "use Leia if Luke turns or is killed" option.


personally, IMHO, just my two cents, i think it's because lucas hadnt really planned this story out as much as he would have us believe and didn't come up with leia as luke's sister until AFTER empire and definitely not until at least after star wars (depending on the whole "your thoughts betray you... a seeester" line from vader being in Empire or ROTJ). i think, just a complete shot in the dark, that he did it to solve the love triangle forming between luke, leia, and han without having any animosity between his two male characters and keep them best friends. i mean, lucas's 'romantic storylines/scenes/dialoge' have as much edge to them as perfect circle. and you mean to tell me he KNEW before hand he was having a brother/sister make out scene on purpose? that's pretty edgey stuff even nowadays (see Eurotrip), let alone back then, to have luke "flaunt" leia's kiss in front of solo. Woulda been awesome if Han used that line, "Hey Luke, here's an interesting fact... YOU MADE OUT WITH YOUR SISTER!"

Originally, according to legend, Lucas was to have Han killed off and have Luke marry Leia...obvioiusly he made the right decision and kept the best actor in the whole series, still in the series. This could explain some of that...but it gives a whole new dimension to the "courting" of Leia in ESB...don't ya think?

[Kam]

The general idea is, that with ob1's help, luke began to explore his force ability. leia had no idea that she was even force sensitive and would not know to express that ability, whatever ability she had. this is still consistent with how qui-gon found anikin. once he started using his abilites, qui-gon began to feel the presence. check out lucas' commentary on the PM dvd for a little more.

Also, in ROTJ, Vader talks to Palps, "And I am sure Skywalker is with them"
Palps: "Strange that I have not felt him...Are you sure your feelings are clear on this matter, Lord Vader?"---or something along those lines...

Once Vader comes in contact with Luke (and Luke is using his Force abilites) he nails that bond that even Palps can't get.



Now that makes perfect sense. i always liked the idea that vader was the strongest ever, more so than even yoda. that's the only showdown that never happenned that would have been incredible to see. seeing as the emperor held his own against yoda, albeit was losing slightly, but still stood toe-to-toe (so to speak) against the lil green dude, and vader i think was more powerful than the emperor, a vader/yoda fight woulda been epic. so leia having the force lie dormant within her, never having learned to tap into it, would be her 'disguise' to stay hidden from vader. which does make sense given obi1 was planning to watch over and eventually train luke, but leia they sent with a politician who would, presumably, never teach her anything about the Force.

ALSO.. just remembered from Star Wars, why doesn't obi1 recognize R2D2?? he just survived years of battle with anakin and his trusty R2 by his side. fine they wipe out R2 and C3POs memories, but obi1 should at least recognize R2. I know they all look alike with different color coding, but still... a leeeetle bit further of a stretch. Although woulda been really nice, another confrontation other than yoda/vader, that woulda had great nostalgia (now, having gone back and created 1-3) is vader/c3po.

[kexodusc]

Hey Kam,

I'm not so sure OB1 doesn't recognize the droids in Ep IV, but probably doesn't care so much since now this is the time to plot against the empire after all those years in exile.
He just says something to the effect about not recalling owning any droids. He didn't own them.

As for Leia, she's never used her Force power, so maybe she's just really weak and needs more training than Luke or something? And Yoda does say the Force is in all living things, so Vader probably doesn't have any reason to examine her for the Force...

But damn, doesn't she look like Padme with the cute little hair buns?

I woulda rather seen a good ol Vader kicking Palpy's but contest instead of the sneak from behind and throw him down the shaft trick...

As for the Luke and Leia being sister/brother thing...we have to remember that Star Wars (Ep. IV) was a big compromise on the supposed real story just to make it fit into a 2.5 hour movie. Lucas probably had to tweak a few things later on to make it all gel...Nothing wrong with that I don't think.

[Kam]

Hey Kam,

I'm not so sure OB1 doesn't recognize the droids in Ep IV, but probably doesn't care so much since now this is the time to plot against the empire after all those years in exile.
He just says something to the effect about not recalling owning any droids. He didn't own them.

As for Leia, she's never used her Force power, so maybe she's just really weak and needs more training than Luke or something? And Yoda does say the Force is in all living things, so Vader probably doesn't have any reason to examine her for the Force...

But damn, doesn't she look like Padme with the cute little hair buns?

I woulda rather seen a good ol Vader kicking Palpy's but contest instead of the sneak from behind and throw him down the shaft trick...

As for the Luke and Leia being sister/brother thing...we have to remember that Star Wars (Ep. IV) was a big compromise on the supposed real story just to make it fit into a 2.5 hour movie. Lucas probably had to tweak a few things later on to make it all gel...Nothing wrong with that I don't think.

kex, all good points, especially his initial compromise. and trust me, am a huge fan of the man and his genius, i think lucas is incredible and has made some aweseom, if not even lucky, decisions (keeping marketing and sequel rights). my critiques are in the spirit of loving this series and also, he truly just cant write dialogue. but i think once star wars took off, he then began to think out the rest of the series, star wars, as a stand alone movie, is a clone (forgive the pun) of The Hidden Fortress, even down to the transition wipes its an homage to kurasawa. If you havent seen it, THF, i highly highly reccomend checking it out, it's eerie how much of Star Wars is straight lifted from that movie. So i think his compromise in the original star wars was in the effects and cgi, not so much the scope of the story, as much as he claims that now.

i never liked the newer versions 'midichlorian' (aka mitochondria) explanation of the force. it sounded so much better with yoda and obi wan's mysticism version from star wars and empire (ala the Force is in all living things, the force surrounds us and is a part of us, etc). obi wan analyzing anakin's blood sample and finding he basically has the right 'blood type' to be the chosen one kinda ruins the mythology. i like that yoda had said the force is in all living things, which means that ANYONE can train to be a jedi, but inherently some people are going to have more power, be more attuned to the force than others. same as anything else, anyone can learn to play basketball, but there's only one michael jordan. i see it as the same way, sure leia hasnt been trained in the force, but anyone in 'the know' is going to recognize the raw talent there, just like with any other non-trained individual with special aptitude/abilities in their field.

And i always thought twins were always attuned to each other, now THAT woulda been a sweet, subtle addition, would be to have them exhibit twin behavior before revealing their relation. just like studies done about twins separated at birth and how eerily similar choices they make. although here it was the exact opposite, luke turns into a winy b***ch and leia is a headstrong badass. Another great line missed.... Vader to Leia: "You're like the son i never had."

hehehehe.

[kexodusc]

my critiques are in the spirit of loving this series and also, he truly just cant write dialogue. but i think once star wars took off, he then began to think out the rest of the series, star wars, as a stand alone movie, is a clone (forgive the pun) of The Hidden Fortress, even down to the transition wipes its an homage to kurasawa. If you havent seen it, THF, i highly highly reccomend checking it out, it's eerie how much of Star Wars is straight lifted from that movie. So i think his compromise in the original star wars was in the effects and cgi, not so much the scope of the story, as much as he claims that now.

I've seen THF, I think many people confuse that Star Wars wasn't so much a clone of THF as it was a clone of the same historical events of the Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire and some of their stories...both "borrowed" heavily from history for their characters, plots etc...I think they both had the inspiration, and I think Lucas was possibly inspired by THF as well. Neither story was original though.
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I never liked the newer versions 'midichlorian' (aka mitochondria) explanation of the force. it sounded so much better with yoda and obi wan's mysticism version from star wars and empire (ala the Force is in all living things, the force surrounds us and is a part of us, etc). obi wan analyzing anakin's blood sample and finding he basically has the right 'blood type' to be the chosen one kinda ruins the mythology.
You've made the same subtle error many others have...midichlorians don't explain the force, they are more of a "bi-product" or coinciding event. If you watch EP I again, you'll see they're just sybiotic lifeforms that live in everything and are in tune with the force...not source of the force...the source is still the mysticism you prefer...


i like that yoda had said the force is in all living things, which means that ANYONE can train to be a jedi, but inherently some people are going to have more power, be more attuned to the force than others. same as anything else, anyone can learn to play basketball, but there's only one michael jordan. i see it as the same way, sure leia hasnt been trained in the force, but anyone in 'the know' is going to recognize the raw talent there, just like with any other non-trained individual with special aptitude/abilities in their field.

Hmmm, I think there's a difference between the force being in everyone, and some people being Force Sensitive, or having Jedi potential...The best analogy I can think of off the top of my head is this: Many of us have dormant or recessive genes in us...but the traits of these genes only manifest themselves in a few of us...red hair, male-pattern baldness, etc. I prefer to believe that not anyone can just become a Jedi, but rather only a select few...


And i always thought twins were always attuned to each other, now THAT woulda been a sweet, subtle addition, would be to have them exhibit twin behavior before revealing their relation. just like studies done about twins separated at birth and how eerily similar choices they make. although here it was the exact opposite, luke turns into a winy b***ch and leia is a headstrong badass. Another great line missed.... Vader to Leia: "You're like the son i never had."

That woulda been funny...I think their attitudes reflect their different upbringings. Much like adopted children are said to look like their non-genetic parents, they learn certain behaviors fromt their legal parents...Luke and Leia were just products of their upbringing - boring farmer live, vs. daughter of a general in the Galactic Rebellion's Army...

You really nailed it with the dialogue...some of it I could tolerate...the only dialogue that was really unbearable was the romantic stuff..."I'm tormented by the kiss you never should have given me", "you are in my very soul"...bleeech...or the one's you pointed out earlier...a necessary part of the story I guess, but there's a part where maybe no words were needed at all. Or just something simple and to the point.

The only other part of the prequel trilogy that bugs me in hindsight is the casting of young Anakin in Ep I...I don't think the kid did that great a job, but maybe he was just too young for the part. Hard to believe that runt grows up in 10 years or less and hooks up with Padme...
but that's just me...and I haven't seen a perfect movie yet...well...maybe The Godfather Pt.II.

[Kam]

I've seen THF, I think many people confuse that Star Wars wasn't so much a clone of THF as it was a clone of the same historical events of the Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire and some of their stories...both "borrowed" heavily from history for their characters, plots etc...I think they both had the inspiration, and I think Lucas was possibly inspired by THF as well. Neither story was original though.
.

will definitely read further about this, i had just read quotes from lucas himself saying he borrowed heavily from THF. but everyone borrows from everyone who borrows from history and everyone else. :)


You've made the same subtle error many others have...midichlorians don't explain the force, they are more of a "bi-product" or coinciding event. If you watch EP I again, you'll see they're just sybiotic lifeforms that live in everything and are in tune with the force...not source of the force...the source is still the mysticism you prefer...


ahhh, will go back and watch ep1 and 2 again before going to watch 3 in the theaters, (wanna check it out on a bigger screen.) But i thought obi1 said, he (anakin) has the highest midichlorian count of any person other than yoda. so are they like ramora fish that hang around the mouths of sharks to get food? they just aggregate around those individuals who exhibit "high force sensitivity"?


Hmmm, I think there's a difference between the force being in everyone, and some people being Force Sensitive, or having Jedi potential...The best analogy I can think of off the top of my head is this: Many of us have dormant or recessive genes in us...but the traits of these genes only manifest themselves in a few of us...red hair, male-pattern baldness, etc. I prefer to believe that not anyone can just become a Jedi, but rather only a select few...


i guess the force is in everyone, but not everyone has the force to be a jedi. to combine both our analogies, i think its both a genetic predisposition towards the force ala 'god given abilities' as well as the training that goes into it. like again, when you look at the best of the best, at a certain level, when all else is equal, the one with the 'god given abilities' will win out. the training becomes secondary, when everyone is equally trained, then whoever has the most 'force' is the king of the hill, in this case... vader. look back at that all-star game, where michael in consecutive possessions took on isaiah and magic, and beat them both 1 on 1 (i think? thought he took magic to the hole and hit a fadeaway over isaiah), now all three of those guys have each trained to the highest level... but michael... he's just michael.


That woulda been funny...I think their attitudes reflect their different upbringings. Much like adopted children are said to look like their non-genetic parents, they learn certain behaviors fromt their legal parents...Luke and Leia were just products of their upbringing - boring farmer live, vs. daughter of a general in the Galactic Rebellion's Army...

You really nailed it with the dialogue...some of it I could tolerate...the only dialogue that was really unbearable was the romantic stuff..."I'm tormented by the kiss you never should have given me", "you are in my very soul"...bleeech...or the one's you pointed out earlier...a necessary part of the story I guess, but there's a part where maybe no words were needed at all. Or just something simple and to the point.

The only other part of the prequel trilogy that bugs me in hindsight is the casting of young Anakin in Ep I...I don't think the kid did that great a job, but maybe he was just too young for the part. Hard to believe that runt grows up in 10 years or less and hooks up with Padme...
but that's just me...and I haven't seen a perfect movie yet...well...maybe The Godfather Pt.II.

the other issue i read is that lucas doesnt work well with actors (human ones). i read that coppola suggested to lucas he hire someone to specifically work with the actors (an acting coach that coppola has used on his sets) while lucas focus on the big picture of everything. at first i thought the same thing, that the he was too young, so how much "acting" could he do, but honestly, children are the best actors. and then look at how m. night's movies showcase kids and how amazing they are in them (ala 6th sense and that little girl in Signs who was amazing). so i think the weakness isnt in the actors, but rather what they are given to say, and the direction given to them. Hayden Christensen is a really solid actor, and i thought excellent in Life is a House, but if all i saw him in was Ep2... i'd think he sucked. Ewan and the emperor are the only two that manage to rise above the dialogue and direction given to them, everyone else does MUCH better than in ep1/2, but still... when what everyone has to say is SO cheesy, i think its better to go with saying nothing. You get good actors, and with a single look, SOO much can be conveyed that you dont need words to bog things down. that whole exchange i ripped on above between anakin/padme, had it been replaced with the anakin simply watching her and smiling and her touching her belly and smiling back, something simple and sweet in sentiment rather than sacharine in words, and maybe just one line, it would have a far stronger impact than the dialogue did.

of course, now come the tv series and cartoon... so star wars can begin to rival star trek in cultural penetration.

[Worf101]

All over like cockaroaches... Can't shop in da mall without stumbling over some PFK dressed like a storm trooper. Inane online and real life conversations about Han Solo dis and Yoda Dat and Windo whoopdedodaday! Arrrgh!!!!!!

Ahem This has been a test of the "senseless rant of the day" broadcast system, we now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

Da Worfster :D

[Kam]

All over like cockaroaches... Can't shop in da mall without stumbling over some PFK dressed like a storm trooper. Inane online and real life conversations about Han Solo dis and Yoda Dat and Windo whoopdedodaday! Arrrgh!!!!!!

Ahem This has been a test of the "senseless rant of the day" broadcast system, we now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

Da Worfster :D

THIS coming from the guy who wears vandamme underroos and owns The Complete Dolph Lundgren Criterion Collection.....


hehehehehehe

[kexodusc]

THIS coming from the guy who wears vandamme underroos and owns The Complete Dolph Lundgren Criterion Collection.....


hehehehehehe

WORFSTER!!!! Don't tell me you have an Steven Segal's autograph on your copy of Under Siege too? :D

At least my nicname ain't OB101...:D

(but yeah, we've been more than a little bit geeky today)

[kexodusc]

ahhh, will go back and watch ep1 and 2 again before going to watch 3 in the theaters, (wanna check it out on a bigger screen.) But i thought obi1 said, he (anakin) has the highest midichlorian count of any person other than yoda. so are they like ramora fish that hang around the mouths of sharks to get food? they just aggregate around those individuals who exhibit "high force sensitivity"?{/quote]
Actually OB1 says Ani has an even higher than count than Yoda, but Qui Gon just explains that the midichlorians are microscopic creatures of the force in all living things living sybiotically...so yeah, I guess they're like that fish you're talking about. They just manifest themselves stronger in force-heavy people. We also have a few dozen species of bacteria that do the same thing, but I'm still having a hard opening doors by waving my hands around in the air.

[QUOTE=Kam]
i guess the force is in everyone, but not everyone has the force to be a jedi. to combine both our analogies, i think its both a genetic predisposition towards the force ala 'god given abilities' as well as the training that goes into it. like again, when you look at the best of the best, at a certain level, when all else is equal, the one with the 'god given abilities' will win out. the training becomes secondary, when everyone is equally trained, then whoever has the most 'force' is the king of the hill, in this case... vader. look back at that all-star game, where michael in consecutive possessions took on isaiah and magic, and beat them both 1 on 1 (i think? thought he took magic to the hole and hit a fadeaway over isaiah), now all three of those guys have each trained to the highest level... but michael... he's just michael.
Good analogy...and Anakin joining the dark side was like Michael playing baseball or playing for Washington...


the other issue i read is that lucas doesnt work well with actors (human ones). i read that coppola suggested to lucas he hire someone to specifically work with the actors (an acting coach that coppola has used on his sets) while lucas focus on the big picture of everything. at first i thought the same thing, that the he was too young, so how much "acting" could he do, but honestly, children are the best actors. and then look at how m. night's movies showcase kids and how amazing they are in them (ala 6th sense and that little girl in Signs who was amazing). so i think the weakness isnt in the actors, but rather what they are given to say, and the direction given to them. Hayden Christensen is a really solid actor, and i thought excellent in Life is a House, but if all i saw him in was Ep2... i'd think he sucked. Ewan and the emperor are the only two that manage to rise above the dialogue and direction given to them, everyone else does MUCH better than in ep1/2, but still... when what everyone has to say is SO cheesy, i think its better to go with saying nothing. You get good actors, and with a single look, SOO much can be conveyed that you dont need words to bog things down. that whole exchange i ripped on above between anakin/padme, had it been replaced with the anakin simply watching her and smiling and her touching her belly and smiling back, something simple and sweet in sentiment rather than sacharine in words, and maybe just one line, it would have a far stronger impact than the dialogue did.

Yeah, the dialogue is just cheesy there...I really thought Ep II was a good leap and bound ahead of Ep I, and the corny love scene dialogue and slow beginning/love story were just necessarily evils of telling Anakin's life story...woulda, coulda, shoulda...I don't think Lucas could have told the story any other way and meet everyone's hopes and expectations. At least he stuck to his vision instead of incorporating current events/politics into the story like soooo many others. It's fantasy. Lucas has a style where his dialogue has to tell the audience what to think and how to feel, and how the story is evolving...it's right out of early film and classic theater.

Kam, ya gots to see this on the big screen...the colours are incredible, the dark, evil feel is nasty, and the special effects are much better than Ep. II. And poor ol' George needs your money or he'll have to make 3 more movies about the backstory of Qui-Gon.

[Kam]

Kam, ya gots to see this on the big screen...the colours are incredible, the dark, evil feel is nasty, and the special effects are much better than Ep. II. And poor ol' George needs your money or he'll have to make 3 more movies about the backstory of Qui-Gon.

i saw it at the zigfield, which had a sweet sound system and dlp projector set up, just their screen isnt the biggest in nyc, but wanted to see it there for the nostalgia (all the sw movies have premiered there), plus saw it opening morning (3;30am, yes, am feeling extremely geeky right about now) with all the lightsaber wielding and stormtrooper clad nutsos. but there's another theater that has a non-dlp set up but with a MUCH larger screen, so checking it out there next. now... awaiting the june 15th imax release of Batman Begins....

ugh... still feeling geeky...

[Geoffcin]

Kam, I couldn't have said it much better myself...the pace of this movie was much faster, and delivery stronger than Ep I and II...
This was fantastic, despite the few minor annoyances again...(well, all the Star Wars were annoying in some ways)...
This ranks #2 in my books only behind Empire....which is amazing considering there were no real plot twists, only details presented...Hayden Christiansen (or however it's spelled) really stepped up the acting a notch...which makes me wonder if the director was influencing his mediocre job in Ep. II...

Man that Darth Sidious is one evil bastard. And Ian McDiarmid played it to perfection...

Kam, and Kexo have said it for me. The best since ESB. Better acting, better plot, better direction. Really a "MUST SEE!!" especially if you've got a Digital Theater near you.

I especially liked the line from Vader; "Either your with me, or my enemy"

Where have we heard that before.... ;)

[kexodusc]

Where have we heard that before.... ;)
I dunno...Geoffcin, but I'm pretty sure Anakin/Vader wouldn't have a problem saying the word "Nuclear"...instead of New-que-lurrr. :D

Darn that evil empire... :D

[eqm]

I dunno...Geoffcin, but I'm pretty sure Anakin/Vader wouldn't have a problem saying the word "Nuclear"...instead of New-que-lurrr. :D

Darn that evil empire... :D

I was wondering why his speech writers just don't replace "nuclear" with "new clear". Say it out loud...it sounds like it's supposed to.

Speaking of talking out loud....this movie reminded me of why I love everything about movies except public theaters (vs. home theater). Between the TB clinic behind me and the woman who brought an infant and a 2 year old to a 9:50 pm show......I can't wait for DVD. :mad:

[kexodusc]

eqm: Funny you mentioned that...a shoving match errupted in my theater in the row in front or me between two older women (in their mid 40's at least). Two women were sitting in one of the last rows that had multiple seats available...2 more ladies came down the isles and politely asked if the two sitting would move their jackets and move over 1 seat so the 2 ladies could sit together side by side...They said NO! Things were said, someone tried walking by, someone bumped someone, next thing you know pushes were thrown.
The ushers broke it up and took two of them somewhere...

Yeah, the movie theater is really losing it's appeal to me...between outrageous prices (especially for pocorn etc, you can buy a beer and 12 oz steak for a medium popcorn/coke combo these days) and an increasingly impolite public, it's just getting less and less attractive...a few years back I'd go at least once a week, probably 6 shows a month minimum....now I'm down to 2 or 3 a month. The new state-of-the-art theaters aren't enough to keep me coming back. Renting and buying DVD's has probably tripled at the same time. Box office sales seem to be as high as ever though, guess I'm alone on this one.

[Kam]

Between the TB clinic behind me and the woman who brought an infant and a 2 year old to a 9:50 pm show......I can't wait for DVD. :mad:

try an infant at 3:30AM show...



Box office sales seem to be as high as ever though, guess I'm alone on this one.

this is actually the first weekend of the year (i think) that box office has gone up. it's been in a slump for a long time compared to last year, although this summer is supposed to be gigantic, and looks like it will with Ep3 leading the way. over $150mill so far. i think with the proliferation of hidef and home theaters and dlp projectors that match what you see at theaters, movie theater chains are going to have to try something new to entice people to boost boxoffice sales. if next year is the same, where ONLY the summer tops the previous summer, might not be enough... with the exception of Ep3, which lucas financed, all the other big movies are financed through highly, highly leveraged loans, and if their opening weekend boxoffices arent gigantic, the investors and studio don't see any money for years. hollywood has the strangest accounting rules around, especially where a $400mill box office can still be considered a movie "in the red" with $0.00 NET profit.... now.. that's fishy to me.

[eqm]

The movie industry, like everything else, has its fair share of middlemen who all take their cuts....and so a lot of movies depend on foreign markets and now dvd to put them over the top.

What does all this mean to you and me? Many great films never get made because the material needs to be EASILY accessible. For example:

The Longest Yard: Remake
Star Wars Ep III: sequel, but DAMN eeez good!!!
The Honeymooners: TV Show
House of Wax: Remake
Lords of Dogtown: sort of sequel
The Adventures of Shark Boy & Lava Girl in 3-D: sequel to Spy Kids
Batman Begins: Prequel?
Land of the Dead: Sequel
Fantastic Four: TV show/Comic Book
Bewitched: TV Show
Herbie: Fully Loaded: Sequel
War of the Worlds: Remake
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: Remake
Bad News Bears: Remake
The Pink Panther: Remake
The Dukes of Hazzard: TV Show
Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo: Sequel...why Lord, why?


So for those of you keeping score, this summer we will have:

6 Remakes
6 Sequels
4 TV show conversions

anybody else looking for something original?

and...how bout let's start a new thread on this, huh? :D

[Worf101]

Pheh... I rate it a solid "C". It makes the last two look like "Ben Hur" and "Citizen Kane" but that still ain't saying much. I found the film weak, predictable, surprisingly bloodless for all the violence going on. I felt for none of the of the characters save Obe Wan. I was glad when she croacked so I wouldn't have to listen to anymore insipid dialogue betwee her and "Ani", sheesh what drivel. How do I know this film stunk. People were voting with their feet and leaving before it was over, that cinches it for me. I did like some of the sword fights but little else moved me.

The theatre, supposedly "state of the art" stadium seating and sound... had no subs working and the rears were off as well. For dinner for three and a movie last night I spent well over a "C" note and the meal was the best part of the night... My condolences to all you S.W. Fainbois but this one didn't hold a patch to the original...

Da Worfster :rolleyes:

[eisforelectronic]

Pheh... I rate it a solid "C". It makes the last two look like "Ben Hur" and "Citizen Kane" but that still ain't saying much. I found the film weak, predictable, surprisingly bloodless for all the violence going on. I felt for none of the of the characters save Obe Wan. I was glad when she croacked so I wouldn't have to listen to anymore insipid dialogue betwee her and "Ani", sheesh what drivel. How do I know this film stunk. People were voting with their feet and leaving before it was over, that cinches it for me. I did like some of the sword fights but little else moved me.

The theatre, supposedly "state of the art" stadium seating and sound... had no subs working and the rears were off as well. For dinner for three and a movie last night I spent well over a "C" note and the meal was the best part of the night... My condolences to all you S.W. Fainbois but this one didn't hold a patch to the original...

Da Worfster :rolleyes:

I find your lack of faith disturbing

[kexodusc]

My condolences to all you S.W. Fainbois but this one didn't hold a patch to the original...

No condolences required...maybe we just love bad movies? :D

[Worf101]

I find your lack of faith disturbing
Hell, I find the comments here about the movie, more entertaining than the film itself... LOL... thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning...

Da Worfster
:cool:

[Woochifer]

Alright, I caught Sith over the weekend, and I will say that it's definitely the best of the prequel trilogy. I know, it doesn't take much to top the first two installments, but at least it raises the bar enough to be mentioned with the original trilogy. Right now, I'd slot it right behind Star Wars and Empire, probably about on par with Jedi, which is actually saying a lot because I don't agree with a lot of the flak that's been thrown at Jedi in recent years.

It's fashionable right now to take shots at Jedi, but without that installment, Empire would not be nearly as well regarded as it currently is. I remember the huge letdown I felt when I saw Empire the first time at the theater, because basically the movie continued a lot of plot threads and added plenty of emotional depth to the story, but resolved nothing. Without Jedi, Empire would not have attained such a lofty status now that everyone's looking back on the original trilogy in hindsight.

Anyway, back Sith -- I thought that the narrative was much tighter and focused this time around. Even though this is the big payoff for everything that's been building through Episodes I and II, a movie like this is hard to pull off, because EVERYBODY knows how it ends. But, I'll give Lucas credit for creating a more compelling story this time (I guess with the Anakin/Obi-Wan split and the birth of Luke and Leia in the storyline, it's got a built in advantage) and moving things along at a brisk pace. Unfortunately, the dialog was as painful to listen to as ever, and the acting was stilted and wooden (don't blame the actors because all of them have done better in other movies, so the blame probably goes to Lucas, who seems to like green screens more than live actors).

The battle scenes were spectacular, and the story of Anakin going to the dark side was pretty compelling, especially when Obi-Wan had to take him on. Some nitpicks about the seeming incompetence of the Jedi to figure out what was going on (didn't anyone see Episode II with the Empire theme playing and the camera focused on Palpatine? sheesh!), and the story with Padme and Anakin was again very weak.

Basically, this movie was good, but frustrating at times because of what it could have been with a better script doctor and better tension during the live interactions. Altogether, it tied together the two trilogies pretty effectively, and stood very well on its own. Watching this movie, it also unfortunately highlights how much could have been hacked off of the first two prequels.

[kexodusc]

Yeah, Wooch, I think we all would have liked to have seen some better dialogue...but this has been the biggest (and easiest) complaint of all the Star Wars movies. There shouldn't have been any surprises...for the record the dialogue in this was as good as any of them, with the exception of the pukey 12 second I love you because you're beautiful scene.
But the Palpatine/Anakin Obi/Anakin dialogue was as good as Lucas has ever been. Man that Palpatine is one greasy bastard.

I think Ep II would have been a lot better if Anakin wasn't such a whiny little boy in his acting, and had the more dastardly look Hayden Christianson wore this time around. And Ep I could have been better in a lot of ways - more Darth Maul, less Jar Jar and pod-racing - older, less cuddly kid, etc.

I put it right up there with Empire IMO. Ep I and Ep IV are tied for the worst (the original wasn't that great).

I haven't got a clue why Jedi is being bashed so much recently. Are people back to complaining about the Ewoks again?

[paul_pci]

Has anyone talked about how ironic it is that Lucas asserts absolute control over making these prequels about a plot-line that villifies absolute political control of that galaxy? Is he just that dense? I think the same political disasters that occur from not engaging in debate or not considering other side/points of view has produced the same cinematic disaster in these three prequels. Had there been more collaborative work on the script, plot lines, acting, special effects, I think these movies, as others have suggested, would have come out much better.

Oh, for the record, I really liked Ep. III.

[eisforelectronic]

I saw it again today.

Ewoks suck!