5 speakers, $2500US: Paradigm vs B&W vs Totem??? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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jjjanzen
05-17-2005, 06:26 PM
I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

What would you buy for that kind of cash?

paul_pci
05-17-2005, 08:57 PM
I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

What would you buy for that kind of cash?

For that kiinda cash, I'd go for Dynaudio.

enrique
05-17-2005, 09:00 PM
B&W (2)603s3 + lcr600+(2)601s3 = 2,500.00.Generally you'll get a discount so it ends up even less.I have the 603's and the lcr600 and love them.Unfortunatly i have missmatched surrounds right now.What amplification will you be using?

kexodusc
05-18-2005, 04:22 AM
Dynaudio makes a good speaker too, if they're in your neighborhood. Buying speakers is sort of like buying clothes...you'll get a dozen different recommendations from a dozen people who've all heard the same speakers. Your just going to have to listen to these yourself to see which is better in your opinion.
Afterall, if one speaker was clearly superior, it should be easy for everyone to tell upon listening right?

HAVIC
05-18-2005, 04:41 AM
I Just ordered the PSB Image series speakers www.psbspeakers.com and they fall within your price range. They are compared with paradigm all the time.

jjjanzen
05-18-2005, 06:21 AM
enrique:

I'll be using either a Rotel 1056, or NAD 763.

enrique
05-18-2005, 07:15 AM
Rotel and B&W match extrmely well together.Also just so you know dynaudio's as great as they are are 4ohm.So obviously you would have to add a good amp if you use the rotel or even the nad.Even though i heard numerous people say that the rsx1056 does fine with the 4ohm,but Rotel says dont do it.That being said i'm extremly happy with my rotel rsx1056/b&w setup.

kexodusc
05-18-2005, 09:41 AM
Rotel says not to drive 4 ohm loads with the 1056? My integrated and power amps have no trouble at all. I wouldn't think a NAD would have any trouble.
Geez, my last Yamaha RX-V795a receiver had no trouble driving 4 ohm loads to pretty impressive volumes and it wasn't nearly as nice as the 1056 or 763.

Good point though, a system should be made with synergy in mind. Higher efficiency will require less power to play loud...for 4 ohm nominal speakers, you'll want to be sure the amp is up to the task.

icarian
05-18-2005, 11:09 AM
I would also recommend dynaudio and depending on your room size you could get away fine with your 1056. My audience 52's play great while driven by my rotel ra 1060@60wpc, as a side however my room is only 11 by 13 feet. If you go used you could get into dynaudio contour line, which has soom incredable speakers. GOOD LUCK!

IRG
05-18-2005, 11:33 AM
I didn't see you asking about Dynaudio, so I won't mention it. I would think 2 pairs of the Paradigm Ref 20 v4 would be great with the NAD receiver. I have the lesser T-743 and have loved it with Paradigm Monitor speakers. I may in another year upgrade to the Ref series. But with your budget, you should be able to get 2 pairs of the Ref 20s and the matching center speaker. That would kick a$$. You might even have a little $ left over for some music, the real reason why we buy this stuff.

Woochifer
05-18-2005, 12:26 PM
At that budget, you'll fall short of a five speaker setup if you go with B&W's 700 series. You could go with four 705s and get a center speaker later on. For a five speaker setup, that leaves you with the 600 series, which very well might work to your preferences, but you really should do the comparisons for yourself.

In general, Paradigms have a more forward sound than the B&Ws, and put more emphasis on the off-axis response and imaging. I would opt for the standmounted Paradigm Studio series models over the equivalent priced floorstanding Monitor models. The route you go depends on how much you value the bass and whether you plan to add a subwoofer. If you want a lot of bass with a punchier and more forward sound, then the Monitor series should work. If you want more balance and refinement, then the Studio series is where you should go.

In my listenings, the Paradigm Studio 20 v.3 is a wonderfully versatile speaker that's equally adept at two-channel and multichannel sources. Getting five of them (if you plan to use a wall-mounted TV and can accommodate a normal speaker in the middle, I would strongly suggest that you use three identical speakers up front rather than a setup with the horizontal center speaker in the middle) will give you a very nice multichannel setup with perfect voice matching all the way around. The wide dispersion on those speakers will create an very convincing surround effect in a properly configured 5.1 system. The only drawback to the 20s is that you need a subwoofer for the deep bass.

The Totems have changed a lot since the last time I listened to them, so I can't give you an opinion one way or another.

enrique
05-18-2005, 01:09 PM
jjjanzen,if your still here why not just audition the 603's with the rotel rsx1056 if thats what you plan to get.If your getting the nad also audition the nad with the 603's or even the paradigms.Once you decide on which reciever then audition the speakers with that particular reciever if of course the dealer has both products.Of course this works visa-versa also,speakers first then receiver.

IRG
05-19-2005, 12:15 PM
At that budget, you'll fall short of a five speaker setup if you go with B&W's 700 series. You could go with four 705s and get a center speaker later on. For a five speaker setup, that leaves you with the 600 series, which very well might work to your preferences, but you really should do the comparisons for yourself.

In general, Paradigms have a more forward sound than the B&Ws, and put more emphasis on the off-axis response and imaging. I would opt for the standmounted Paradigm Studio series models over the equivalent priced floorstanding Monitor models. The route you go depends on how much you value the bass and whether you plan to add a subwoofer. If you want a lot of bass with a punchier and more forward sound, then the Monitor series should work. If you want more balance and refinement, then the Studio series is where you should go.

In my listenings, the Paradigm Studio 20 v.3 is a wonderfully versatile speaker that's equally adept at two-channel and multichannel sources. Getting five of them (if you plan to use a wall-mounted TV and can accommodate a normal speaker in the middle, I would strongly suggest that you use three identical speakers up front rather than a setup with the horizontal center speaker in the middle) will give you a very nice multichannel setup with perfect voice matching all the way around. The wide dispersion on those speakers will create an very convincing surround effect in a properly configured 5.1 system. The only drawback to the 20s is that you need a subwoofer for the deep bass.

The Totems have changed a lot since the last time I listened to them, so I can't give you an opinion one way or another.

You know I meant to type Studio 20, but somehow it came out Reference 20 instead. The Studio 20s are v4 now, correct? I listed to them at a local dealer - pretty good too. I was surprised though, how good on some music the Monitor 3 stood up against it, so that's what I bought, well and $500 less too. I may upgrade next year to them. I thought the Studios had a little too much bass emphasis, almost as if a subwoofer was on. But on classical and acoustic, they really did shine. Tough to beat for the money, IMO.

RGA
05-19-2005, 01:55 PM
I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

What would you buy for that kind of cash?

What do you listen to? What kind of sound do you like? How much bass do you want? Are you going to listen to a lot of music or will it mostly be home theater?

Many set-ups have varying strengths. Where do you live?

For $3,000.00Cdn I would lean to Dynaudio over the B&W's I thinkt he Dynaudio audience 42 at $900.00 pair LIST is a superior speaker to the B&W 705 or the Paradigm Studio 100V3 -- if it's home theater you're probably going to need a subwoofer and getting a good one is major consideration. A set of A52's in front and a set of A42's in back with the appropriate center channel (or preferrably a third A52) as center speaker will be getting up $2500-$2700.00Cdn and you still need a sub and stands.

I would also look into what Linn is offerring up and possibly Energy C series or if music is secondary. Certain PSB and Paradigm models and the B&W 600 series may also be good to you. The 600 series sounds more engaging and exciting to me than the 700 series but doesn't look nor is it built as nice. If your considering paradigm i would also look at Energy which to me is just as good for a lot less money or PMC(the Professional Monotor Company) which slightly more but to me you get what you pay for with them.

theaudiohobby
05-20-2005, 01:10 AM
I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

What would you buy for that kind of cash?

You are better off listening for yourself, as folks have very different tastes in loudspeakers and to some extent speaker brands have a house sound. Some of your preferences will also be informed by the type of music you listen to. Each of these brands have their own adherents. On the B&W front, I have heard folks tout the 600 series, but personally I prefer the 700 series to the 600 series, the 700 series is an altogether smoother and more coherent and it is definitely not boxy, though if you want deeper bass with the 705, you will need a subwoofer. Note that there is no equivalent 700 series model for the B&W602.

Woochifer
05-20-2005, 11:21 AM
You know I meant to type Studio 20, but somehow it came out Reference 20 instead. The Studio 20s are v4 now, correct? I listed to them at a local dealer - pretty good too. I was surprised though, how good on some music the Monitor 3 stood up against it, so that's what I bought, well and $500 less too. I may upgrade next year to them. I thought the Studios had a little too much bass emphasis, almost as if a subwoofer was on. But on classical and acoustic, they really did shine. Tough to beat for the money, IMO.

The Studio line is currently on the v.3 version, which came out almost two years ago. Surprised that you would note that the Studio 20s have too much bass emphasis, because in the lows they are noticeably more neutral than the v.2 versions were. If anything, the detractors for the current Studio series have noted that there's not enough bass. Personally, I think that the bass with the v.3 series is very well balanced and better differentiates the lower frequency sounds than the v.2 series and the Monitor models.

The Studio 20s have deeper bass extension than the Monitor 3s because their box dimensions and port diameter are designed to deliver deeper bass extension, and the Studio series woofers are better equipped to handle a wider range than the Monitor drivers.

If the Studio 20 sounded like a subwoofer was on, then you're likely hearing a room-induced effect. Starting around 200 Hz, the room effect starts to have a progressively bigger effect on the bass -- it can cancel out the bass or boost them at specific frequencies; and the boundary reinforcement is very pronounced in small rooms. A subwoofer will typically take the overall sound down to at least 25 Hz, and I know for a fact that the Studio 20 doesn't come anywhere near that depth.

Acoustical effects with the room though can boost certain frequencies enough to make it seem that a lot of bass is emanating from a speaker (this type of midbass boost is the parlor trick that Bose employs to make their Acoustimess and Lifestyle systems sound that like they deliver a lot of bass when in fact they have poor lower extension), or cancel them out at other frequencies and make even a full range speaker sound anemic.

IRG
05-20-2005, 11:54 AM
The Studio line is currently on the v.3 version, which came out almost two years ago. Surprised that you would note that the Studio 20s have too much bass emphasis, because in the lows they are noticeably more neutral than the v.2 versions were. If anything, the detractors for the current Studio series have noted that there's not enough bass. Personally, I think that the bass with the v.3 series is very well balanced and better differentiates the lower frequency sounds than the v.2 series and the Monitor models.

The Studio 20s have deeper bass extension than the Monitor 3s because their box dimensions and port diameter are designed to deliver deeper bass extension, and the Studio series woofers are better equipped to handle a wider range than the Monitor drivers.

If the Studio 20 sounded like a subwoofer was on, then you're likely hearing a room-induced effect. Starting around 200 Hz, the room effect starts to have a progressively bigger effect on the bass -- it can cancel out the bass or boost them at specific frequencies; and the boundary reinforcement is very pronounced in small rooms. A subwoofer will typically take the overall sound down to at least 25 Hz, and I know for a fact that the Studio 20 doesn't come anywhere near that depth.

Acoustical effects with the room though can boost certain frequencies enough to make it seem that a lot of bass is emanating from a speaker (this type of midbass boost is the parlor trick that Bose employs to make their Acoustimess and Lifestyle systems sound that like they deliver a lot of bass when in fact they have poor lower extension), or cancel them out at other frequencies and make even a full range speaker sound anemic.

Well the listening room I was in was less than idea. I had 3 pairs to listen to at the time, the Energy C-3, which I also happened to own, the Monitor 3 and then the Studio 20s. The C-3s had the least bass and the Studios the most. If I had had the money at the time, I would have preferred the Studio 20s, but the Monitor 3 did pretty well. On rock music, I thought they sounded better, but this wasn't an ideal listening test as I mentioned. On classical music I brought with me, the Studios were superior. Both beat the C-3. I wasn't wild about the rubber top on the Studios, but apparently it has a purpose. The Energy Veritas also had the same "purpose."

jjjanzen
05-20-2005, 02:39 PM
Thanks for all the replies!

I live in Calgary. I've only been to two dealers so far. One carries Rotel&NAD receivers, and Paradigm, B&W and Thiel ($$$$$$$). The other carries NAD, Marantz, Krell receivers and JM Labs, Totem, KEF, and Definitive Tech speakers.

I've narrowed it down to the NAD 763 and the Rotel 1056, based on reviews, features, and the fact that more of an emphasis is put on music ability than useless features by both. I pretty much always have music on, so that will be my main use. I figure that whatever system can pump out decent music, will handle home theatre just fine. There may be some argument to that, but most people would agree that it doesn't go the other way around. A good HT setup may not lend well to music.

I have yet to do a full listening test, which is paramount to any sounds system. Having said that, I did do a brief (2hour!) session comparing the def tech mythos line and the Totems Sttafs, using only a Marantz receiver. The Totems won.

I'm looking for feedback on the B&W and Paradigm lines because they have speakers in the same price range, so like any good consumer, I have to shop around.

I don't know where to get Dynaudio's or Energy speakers around here, so those are out. But thanks for the info on the Paradigm's and B&W's. I will definitely give them a listen to complete my research.

loose
05-20-2005, 03:40 PM
I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

What would you buy for that kind of cash?



Of the three brands you mention, I would definitely go with a Totem package. The other day, I had a listen to the Paradigm Studio 40 and B&W (don't know which model, but they were around $1100 Canadian per pair) and I just could not believe how terrible they both sounded (no offence to any owners). The 40's were clammy and out of focus and the B&W's were simply hazy...there is no way in hell I, personally, would ever consider either of these two brands. For the same money, look at Epos (provided your room isn't too big. M12.2's with a C8 centre and M5 or ESL3 as surrounds and you're in for a home theatre treat.

If EPOS is not an option, I would consider the Totems as the top choice in the group you mentioned.

RGA
05-20-2005, 08:33 PM
Energy is sold at A&B Sound which should be in Calgary -- and you can demop the Energy's against the Totems as they also carry Totem. Dynaudio is tougher to find as more high end dealers carry them not big retail chains.

The reason I mention Energy is because the C9 (with the exception of build construction) is very much on par with the Paradigm Studio 100V3 and at prices between $1100 - $1250.00 a pair list is a vertiable bargain. They're also tube amp friendly play real loud and have pretty darn good bass response. A set of these in front and C3 in rear their center channel and a good sub will be well under $3k Cdn.

Energy is also made in Canada. PSB's Image series might be worth a listen as well. Totem is nice but often ooverpriced for the sonics in that a lot of the money went to the nice cabinetry. The Energy's are a bit boring looking but a good deal IMO. http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=22#

kexodusc
05-21-2005, 02:34 AM
Energy is sold at A&B Sound which should be in Calgary -- and you can demop the Energy's against the Totems as they also carry Totem. Dynaudio is tougher to find as more high end dealers carry them not big retail chains.

The reason I mention Energy is because the C9 (with the exception of build construction) is very much on par with the Paradigm Studio 100V3 and at prices between $1100 - $1250.00 a pair list is a vertiable bargain. They're also tube amp friendly play real loud and have pretty darn good bass response. A set of these in front and C3 in rear their center channel and a good sub will be well under $3k Cdn.

Energy is also made in Canada. PSB's Image series might be worth a listen as well. Totem is nice but often ooverpriced for the sonics in that a lot of the money went to the nice cabinetry. The Energy's are a bit boring looking but a good deal IMO. http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=22#

RGA: Even Energy won't make a clam that the C9 is even in the same ballpark as the Studio 100...Personally, I'd avoid either speaker but let's be realistic.

Totems additional cost for cabinetry is actually not nearly as much as you'd think. Go visit the Totem factory in Montreal, it's at an old bank building, really cool. The added cost might be 5-10%, maybe. And that's only at the lowest priced speakers they offer...their competitors usually have nicely finished cabinets as well. Just a different style, no additional cost though. When you sell as many speakers as these guys do and have the high grade industrial equipment they do it's easy to keep costs down. IMO Totem offers far superior sound than most other speakers they compete with, they just have a different approach altogether...smaller instead of bigger. Nice looks don't hurt either.
I'm surprised you don't like Totem and that they're on your top 3 list of speakers to trash...they have a very European flavor to them and sound quite similar to many speakers you recommend.

jjjanzen: Use your own ears to be the judge - RGA notwithstanding, many, many fussy people have chosen Totem for the wonderful sonic refinement (and awesome midrange, imaging, and soundstaging) their speakers deliver. Try them out - you've got nothing to lose.

jjjanzen
05-21-2005, 07:31 AM
kexodusc: I plan to give the Totems another listen hooked up to the NAD receiver. I'd like to hook them up to the Rotel, but that dealer doesn't carry Totems. From what I've read on both reseivers, I can't really lose. It appears as though NAD has fixed it's hiss problem (if there ever was one) as they apparently pulled a batch of 763's off the shelf and replaced them with good ones, so I'm comfortable going with either receiver.

Based solely on reviews I've read (a ton!), the Totems have the edge musically. They also have the edge in looks, IMO, and in my girlfirends opinion too (which we all know is really the limiting factor here!). However, all the reviews mean nothing if I can't tell the difference when I listen to them. If I can't hear the difference, no point paying the difference!

Unfortunately, I don't have hours and hours to test systems. Forums (and reviews) are great for helping to narrow down the choices before the 'test drive'. Based on what I've read here, I think I'll narrow my list down to Paradigm's and Totem's. Seems like I can't relly lose with either of those.

Also, isn't A&B closed now (bankrupt?)? The one by my place has been empty for some time now.

Nich
05-21-2005, 09:36 AM
I also live in Calgary, and A&B sound still around. One in the south and one in the north. K&W also carries Totem. I had a chance to listen to the Totem Rainmakers and I was impressed with them. They quoted me a pair for $1000.00/pr...$100.00 extra for Cherry and Maple Finish. The Centre Rainmaker is $900.00....$100.00 extra for Cherry and Maple. You can buy another pair and problem solved.

Try and give them a listen; you wont be dissapointed

RGA
05-21-2005, 10:06 AM
Yes they were under bankruptcy protection but a fellow in Richmond BC bought the chain. they were hit hard when Yamaha went to FutureShop and was A&B's main line of amps.

I think Totem is good just overpriced -- I recently heard a $4,000.00Cdn (which was hevily reduced in price I believe) Totem Mani-2 and it was good but let's just say there is MUCH better to my ear for MUCH less.

The Arro was also good but again speakers at HALF the price I have found to my ear to be MUCH better --- even the Energy C5 while rougher around the edges was also more engaging and FUN to listen to.

Well kex I don't want to get into a flame war with paradigm supporters -- but if price were equal ($1250.00Cdn) I would buy the C9 over the Paradigm Studio 100 V3 -- since the price is not equal it's a no brainer for me. The two are not that different to be frank sonically but my audition of the 100V3 didn't impress me in the least.

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/energy_connoisseur_c9/
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_studio100_v3/

And beside this for the same price of the paradigm you can get Energy Veritas line!!

jjjanzen
05-22-2005, 10:15 AM
RGA:

Do you know where I can find a comparative frequency response chart for the Totem's (Sttaf preferably)?

RGA
05-22-2005, 12:15 PM
They don't measure Totems there. Personally I would not go by the measurements to judge the sound -- I'm not a fan of the 100V3 in the least but the measurements they do (which is hardly comprehensive) look ok. This was just to illustrate that the two speakers measure similar and certainly one isn't "better" than the other -- personally I find most speakers with this cabinet design material design sound very much alike...which is why the cheaper speakers are a worth auditioning. Totem is more expensive can;t play as loud sound smaller cost more but look better. The Arro for instance is ok but I'd rather the Athena Floorstander for 1/3 the price as a big chunk of the Arro midband compressed and sounds quite a lot like a boom and sizzle speaker to ME.

To other people it might sound great. But I always get the sense when people talk about the Model one it is always compliments like " great bass for a small speaker" which is true it does have great bass for a small speaker but that does not mean it has "great bass" in an overall way. The Model One in Canada was selling for $1800.00 a few years ago and I compared the B&W CDM2SE which was about $1150.00Cad and the B&W was better to me. The Model one needs a small room had a small sound compressed badly at medium high levels -- and were not especially great at low volumes because oftheir poor sensitivity and efficiency...when it all ligned up it sounded good but i found it an incredibly limiting loudspeaker and when you factor in the $1800.00 price tag it was puzzling to me.

It's just personal taste I stress but every time I listen to a Totem I come away saying "is that it?" And then I look at the price and I guess I don't get the appeal other than the visual - they are some of the most beautiul speakers going for the money.

I would just ask a bunch of dealers to let you take several speakers home and try them all out.

Geoffcin
05-22-2005, 12:52 PM
Based solely on reviews I've read (a ton!), the Totems have the edge musically. They also have the edge in looks, IMO, and in my girlfirends opinion too (which we all know is really the limiting factor here!). However, all the reviews mean nothing if I can't tell the difference when I listen to them. If I can't hear the difference, no point paying the difference!


Both the Rainmaker, and the Arro are very good speakers. Driven correctly the Rainmakers have serious "WTF" value for the size that they are. These speakers also have excellent resale value.

kexodusc
05-22-2005, 03:38 PM
personally I find most speakers with this cabinet design material design sound very much alike...
You continue to amaze me...Your comments make it clear to me you place far too much emphasis on what designers "say" they do and how a speaker actually sounds. Cabinet shape, driver material contributing to similar sound? God, why not throw in voice coil gauge, pole-vents, dust caps, magnet material...Guess that makes sense...Audio Note clearly sounds like the less expensive Cerwin Vega's of similar shape with paper cone woofers...please...



Totem is more expensive can't play as loud sound smaller cost more but look better. The Arro for instance is ok but I'd rather the Athena Floorstander for 1/3 the price as a big chunk of the Arro midband compressed and sounds quite a lot like a boom and sizzle speaker to ME.
Boom and sizzle? From a Totem? Brother, THAT'S a first...I usually hear they are the chaotic opposite...midrange warm and detail with rolled off highs and insufficient bass/boom....they generally have gradual roll-offs in the bass and are anything but boomy. Totem is known for presenting HUGE sounds...not the "small speaker" sound you mention. Might not be your thing, but that's like saying Toyota is known for their poor quality...just the opposite...


and were not especially great at low volumes because of their poor sensitivity and efficiency...
Statements like these make me question if you have ever really taken the time to listen to these speakers or if you are just trolling. By ruling out all speakers you don't promote with these made up deficiencies, you indirectly steer people towards the brands that make your list. Efficiency and Sensitiviy do NOT affect the sound quality of the speaker in the way you are implying. There is nothing lost or added as far as musical information goes as a result of sensitivity.
Totems are a pretty fair bargain at their price points. Perhaps a bit of niche product as they aren't the most ideal speakers in 600 sq foot rooms. For most mid-size or smaller rooms their design presents far more flexibility and better integration with the rooms to achieve superior sound.

Geoffcin
05-22-2005, 04:32 PM
Statements like these make me question if you have ever really taken the time to listen to these speakers or if you are just trolling. By ruling out all speakers you don't promote with these made up deficiencies, you indirectly steer people towards the brands that make your list. Efficiency and Sensitiviy do NOT affect the sound quality of the speaker in the way you are implying. There is nothing lost or added as far as musical information goes as a result of sensitivity.
Totems are a pretty fair bargain at their price points. Perhaps a bit of niche product as they aren't the most ideal speakers in 600 sq foot rooms. For most mid-size or smaller rooms their design presents far more flexibility and better integration with the rooms to achieve superior sound.

Perhaps he's heard them with horribly underpowered amps. Vince Bruzzese actually apologized when he played the Hawks, as he said "The Hawks like a bigger amp" I think he was running 150 watts into the Rainmakers and it sounded great. The Mani-2 was using a 400wpc amp(4ohm), and it was dynamic heaven!

Compressed?! HA-HA-HA!!!

RGA
05-22-2005, 05:46 PM
The arro sounds like a boom and sizzle speaker to me - not the Rainmaker and not the Model one nor the Mani. The Arro. And it isn't a boom really more of just a speaker that is trying to wow me with the bass for it's size and a speaker that seems very difficient in the mid(vocal band sounding nasal). it sounds small and side by side with some Energy's it was embarrassing...the Arro is overpriced and sounds highly fatiguing sorry but that's tha way it sounds - I have listened to totems for years -- with Roksan Bryston and parasound most recently all of which have more than enough power to drive any Totem.

In a small room the the Model one will be nice -- just not to me for th money. Even Geoffcin has subonciously proven my point "WTF" value for the size that they are." Yes they are impressive for the size they are -- but take the size oOUT OF THE EQUATION and they are a ho hum overpriced speaker. Everyone I know is very impressed with the size and the sound from the small box -- but after that they just do not sound BIG and if they did you would have bought them right? After all they ALSO look phenomenal -- but you know exactly what I'm talking about -- they are expensive for the sound on tap -- their midrange is not great -- they SOUND like a speaker trying to impress and somewhere along the way they have the pyrotechnics and gee wiz factor but lost the pot musically.

No one has to agree with me and I'm not telling anyone they should be hearing it the way I'm hearing it -- but i've felt a bit like this toward Totem 5 years before I ever heard of Audio Note since back in the CDM SE series of B&W's. The Model one made me say wow that;s really cool for a small speaker -- but after that wow it's not musical it sounds boxy and it needs bags of power to not play loud and not work in a medium sized room very well -- sorry but that just isn't worth nearly $2k. I briefly auditioned the Rainmaker a second time and it's overpriced to me. I try for the most part to recommend what I would buy at the price point or my close runner ups -- Since Totem to me runs double what I think they're sonics run I can't recommend them. I heard $2500.00 Dreamcatchers in a surround sound rig...again $2500.00 for the sound that was on offer is simply ludicrous to me.

Of course I steer people to speakers I like when I can -- I also try and steer people to what I think is the best on their list or what I think is the best bang for buck -- I also try and find something cheaper and what i think is better when I can because unluike you I don't try and get people to spend double the money for no better a speaker but covered in a nice "LOOKING" box. Totem is grossly overpriced all across the line IMO. None of them sound BAD -- but they are certainly nothing special at the prices.

kexodusc
05-22-2005, 06:45 PM
Well RGA, I guess if you say it has to be true...Totem's continued success is more evil corporate marketing and stupid buyers being conned into pretty over-priced speakers that sound worse than $200 Best Buy models.
Thanks for saving us from making a big mistake. :rolleyes:

RGA
05-22-2005, 07:11 PM
Well A&B sound is like Best Buy just so you know as maybe you have not been out west. No - you overract and get defensive -- where didI say they sound worse than $200.00 best buy speakers? I think it is YOU who are very much insulting Energy loudspeakers for being able to offer superior value for FAIR prices -- ditto for their sister Athena line.

Geoffcin
05-22-2005, 07:22 PM
Well A&B sound is like Best Buy just so you know as maybe you have not been out west. No - you overract and get defensive -- where didI say they sound worse than $200.00 best buy speakers? I think it is YOU who are very much insulting Energy loudspeakers for being able to offer superior value for FAIR prices -- ditto for their sister Athena line.

Energy I've never heard. But if their sister is the thin-walled, boxy sounding Athenas then it doesn't bode good for the sound. Actually, the Athenas aren't bad if you compare it against the JBL's that I've heard at BetsyBye, but compared to Totem? You must be smoking something medicinal!

psonic
05-22-2005, 08:27 PM
Yes, you can get maximum speaker for the $2500 with Dynaudio. Listen to the Audience 52 and 62 and see what you think. The 62 has a bit more bass and will work in a mid sized room without a sub, you also don't need stands and you have nice built floorstanders (no resonance in these). Then get the A42 as surround and look into the center channel or possibly "phantom mode" without a center channel (my preference). If you skip the center you may even go up to the 72 which has a ton of bass. Listen to all your list of speakers, then go listen to these... ;)

http://www.dynaudio.com/

kexodusc
05-23-2005, 02:42 AM
Well A&B sound is like Best Buy just so you know as maybe you have not been out west. No - you overract and get defensive -- where didI say they sound worse than $200.00 best buy speakers? I think it is YOU who are very much insulting Energy loudspeakers for being able to offer superior value for FAIR prices -- ditto for their sister Athena line.
I'm out west all the time...I probably visit most major Canadian and US western cities more than you (though I haven't had the pleasure of being sent to lovely Vancouver yet, just Seattle).. A&B is quite a bit different from a Best Buy or even Future Shop - at least the ones in Alberta. Not that this is relevant in any way.
Not overreacting or getting defensive at all...I don't have any stake in Totem whatsoever, I've never owned a Totem speaker. I've just always been impressed with the value in their speakers and their very different approach to designing them. It works, and the generalized statements you make about Totem are just false IMO...I don't mind you saying you dislike them, I just have a hard time with the reasons you give for disliking them. Especially the price-for-looks thing...the finish isn't nearly as expensive as you think, and when you consider how other $1000 speakers and higher are finished, they're not really all that different than anyone else. I'm sure the thousands of Totem customers who listen to many, many speakers and decide to go Totem would argue with you on the merits of their sound. I'm also sure Totem would take exception to your claims they are over-priced for the performance they deliver. If I was a person who bought Totem I'd be pretty insulted by these comments. You obviously don't like Totem - that doesn't mean they don't sound good for the money.

I like Athenas stuff for what it is, but it's a far stretch to even mention their bookshelf or tower speakers (which are frequently being fire-saled out here for $200-$300) to any of Totems speakers in terms of sound. I wouldn't presume to insult Energy's products either...I've been a bigger fan of Energy than you I think...Just keeping it real...:D

RGA
05-23-2005, 08:51 AM
Energy I've never heard. But if their sister is the thin-walled, boxy sounding Athenas then it doesn't bode good for the sound. Actually, the Athenas aren't bad if you compare it against the JBL's that I've heard at BetsyBye, but compared to Totem? You must be smoking something medicinal!

Does no one read anymore or just make assumptions -- Athena is an entry level product from Energy or the group anyway that makes them and are not the same - they don;t even look the same Athena competes and to me beats everything that Future Shop sells in the way of loudspeakers -- which isn't much but given they're cheaper than Polk and JBL and Bose at least that says something -- superior product at a fair price (shows you what the others there are NOT doing.

Athena is not better than Totem and I don't see where I stated that. Even if you half the price of the Totem it's still double the price of the Athenas. The Energy C-5 is about $800.00Cdn and in Britain despite being jacked up due to Tarrifs is $600.00GBP or $1500.00Cad still is doing well.

I've recommended Totem and still will for the purposes the person wans them for -- but at least here they often set them up against no competition -- Soundhounds had trouble selling them because against anything they had trouble in a meium room -- selling 3-6 pairs a YEAR is no small reason that Totem elected to go to the big box chains. That's a double edge sword because they're too pricey for the average consumer and they don't play loud enough or well enough for the TYPE of music Joe Sixpack listens to. Of course they;re better than JBL but Joe Sixpack listening to AC/DC at a 100+db isn't going to pleased with the Rainmaker a small box speaker over paying $300.00 less and getting a 12 inch woofered JBL.

So A&B sound's manager simply told me they don't sell -- everyone coos over them and then get sticker shock...and a few months later the Arro came down in price $1500.00Cdn to $980.00 and they STILL don't sell because once again the JBL is there or Energy C9. Sorry but the Energy C9 at $1150 Cdn isn't perfect and it no doubt has more box noise than the Totems but if one listens to a wide variety of music or listens to more rock dance and pop then I'll sacrifice some weaknesses in refinement for a speaker that can party and also be fairly tube amp friendly to boot.

Maybe you should check out Energy and maybe then you'll understand why I get on the Paradigm 100V3 which is twice the price and suire isn't anything remotely twice the speaker -- this is one time where I agree with UHF on speakers -- the Conisseurs are in one of their reference systems and while I personally am not a huge fan of the C-series myself because I don't like this kind of sonic presentation -- I've seen the clone of the box by many others for far higher prices that don;t do it better enough if at all to be worth DOUBLE and More the price. Good for Energy and Athena for giving people value over name brand elitist popularity.

Again nothing wrong with Totem. To me they are overpriced for the sound on tap...if they are not to you then I expect them to be sitting in your living room soon as they make speakers up to $10k so you obviously chose your speaker over the Totems -- why was that again?

qqkltb
05-24-2005, 04:07 AM
IMHO Ascend Acoustics 340's can match any of the previously mentioned speakers in performance at better than half the price. Check out www.ascendacoustics.com you'll be glad you did.

jack201
05-31-2005, 12:20 AM
I have owned energy veritas 2.4s loved them unfortunately they were the first generation. Remember the infamous woofer meltdown recall debacle? Now the woofers come with red dots in the back to show they won't be fryin' on you. :lol: Anyway, I got so ticked off after two woofer replacements I finally gave up and ditched em. I searched high and low jumping from brand to brand Revel, Maggies, Dynaudio and finally found what in my opinion is the best darned all around performer from classical to rock down to some serious pumpin house music. The reborn Von Schweikert Audio company and their new generation VR series. I own a pair of VR-1s I use with a Manley Stingray, Theta Pearl and Pro Prime II, Clearaudio Emotion and Basic and AP cables. Love em! Smooth mids fantastic extension up and down the scale. Speakers are very reasonable at less than $1000. I also owned a pair of VR-4 Gen III HSEs which I have sold to make way for the new Gen IV SR used with all levinson gear, VPI Aries 2, and also AP cables. This one rocks the house. One guest who owns a B&W 800 signature said that his speakers were a little bit better. When he found out that they cost half the price though he almost fell off his chair and started asking about the VR-7 :lol: Anyway, this is another brand to consider if you have very wide musical preferences. Good Luck!