Full Review of the new B&W 800D

[Peter Duminy]

A much anticipated review of the B&W 800D is up and running at last here:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superi...wilkins800d.htm (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0505/bowerswilkins800d.htm)


In Summary

"The 800D is a startling revision of an already excellent high-end full bandwidth design of striking appearance and superb build. Compared to its predecessor it offers greater musical contrasts and transparency, a less intrusive treble and an overall balance that is finally very close to neutral. The price has gone up of course thanks to the inclusion of the diamond dome tweeter, but B&W has done its homework here in collaboration with their subcontractor (Element Six, part of the de Beers group) as the premium being asked for the tweeter is much less than only any comparable speaker using sapphire or diamond domes".

[RGA]

You know I have this feeling I'm not convinced. I never get why the new review says we fixed all the problems of the old model -- but no one told us all the problems of the old model when the old model was a new model. I'll have to give them more of a serious listen next time...B&W's only real problems have been a lack of bass resolution (one note bass) and a treble driver doesn;t uite stay in step with the break-up in the top of the midrange driver's pass-band (well that's the techno-babble of others who seem to have the answer for what I hear) a compartmentalized sound of 3 drivers doing their own thing and not recreating a real instrument or voice in space.

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

[theaudiohobby]

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

What do you know about diamond or even Kevlar... :rolleyes: , I am okay with your criticism of the sound just not too sure why you singled out certain materials for criticism, I thought it was about the whole package.

[kexodusc]

You know I have this feeling I'm not convinced. I never get why the new review says we fixed all the problems of the old model -- but no one told us all the problems of the old model when the old model was a new model. I'll have to give them more of a serious listen next time...B&W's only real problems have been a lack of bass resolution (one note bass) and a treble driver doesn;t uite stay in step with the break-up in the top of the midrange driver's pass-band (well that's the techno-babble of others who seem to have the answer for what I hear) a compartmentalized sound of 3 drivers doing their own thing and not recreating a real instrument or voice in space.

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

I didn't hate the N802 at all, I just got sick when I learned the price. There are a few $2000 -$4000 speakers I can think of that stand up to it quite well. I'm not sure if the designers are to blame or of it's just the marketing geniuses that directly correlate price with size instead of sound? People are willing to pay for the brand name. Then again, I've heard speakers that cost more than the N802 that were worse.

Without passing judgement on this speakers performance, it's sad to see B&W feeling a need to increase costs when the rest of the speaker industry is finding many ways of improving sound while reducing costs.
I think the giant corporations are slowly but surely seeing their market share slip away, losing their competitive edge, and their ability to adapt fast enough. Not sure if this is a good thing or not.

As for Kevlar...not sure why you feel it's a gimmick.

[20to20K]

...you have to keep in mind the value of the dollar versus that pound has seriously
plummetted since the last series was introduced. Nearly by 50 cents a pound.

I'm sure that had to play some role in the US price for their speakers this time around.

I've listened to the 803N and was somewhat impressed...but thought the Faber Grand Piano's sounded as good (maybe better) for $1500 less. So your point is well taken.

[kexodusc]

That's true, 20to20K, but the British price has gone up too according to that British article.

[thepogue]

quite impressive...but wayyyyy over priced IMHO...20K for any speaker is kinda mad in my book...but I'm a cheapo....so thats just me. I'm not at all a fan of the base of the unit either...but it is on wheels so it makes it easy to slide around..when I saw that I was thinking about all the hub-bub about coupling w/ high end spikes....but shoot I had that idea before them (B&W) when I put casters on me sub!! oh well...should have contacted the patient office ;)


Pogue

[RGA]

That's true, 20to20K, but the British price has gone up too according to that British article.

I don;t buy the dollar shipping argument because the AX Two is hand built and shipped in from Denmark and then there is the 705 which is 3 times the price no better at all looks nicer and better finish -- depends what premium you want to pay for heavy advertising/staff , high mark-ups, overhead etc.

TAH
As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference. B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.

I will be interested to do a shootout between the D800 series, the AN E Sec and the Maggie 20.1

[thepogue]

but your point about B&W being way over priced is correct IMO...I still very much like the 801's but they listed for 11K...I like them for 4

Pogue

[kexodusc]

B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.


I know speaker owners are worse than Harley Davidson owners-loyal to a fault, but come on RGA...I would accept B&W is the new JBL or something, but that's a bit low...

Maybe if B&W started selling 4 inch tall little snail shaped speakers in Sears...maybe...

[theaudiohobby]

The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference.

I do not know who you referring to, but at least you refer to him as an expert, are you? :rolleyes: What do you know about the sound of kevlar, paper, diamond, silk and the various iterations thereof? :rolleyes:

FTR: A while back before I sold on the AN-Ks, I disconnected the woofer and listened solely to the tweeter and much to my surprise it was rather harsh sounding in comparison to the other speakers I had around the house at the time.

[drseid]

As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn't read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference. B&W is basically the new Bose -- WAY overpriced for what you get.


I think that B&W would have to get *much* more greedy before I would go anywhere near calling them "the new Bose."

I confess to not being a big fan in general of their sound for the money, but many people love it, and there are too many other companies to mention that could lower their price quite a bit as well. I would say B&W speakers tend to cost more than they should... but maybe not... If the market is willing to pay it, then the cost is what the market is willing to bear.

As for Kevlar drivers being implemented properly... Give the Legacy Whispers a listen. They are an excellent example of what a good Eton made kevlar driver can do in the right design. There are many other good designs too, of course... and I have built one for my Dad (and it even had an inverted Titanium dome tweeter as well, made by Focal).

I agree with the previous poster that said it is all about the implementation... When you go to CES next year, give some more speakers using these drivers a listen and you may just be surprised at just how many good designs there are out there.

---Dave

[RGA]

My comparison to Bose is no a comparison of SOUND -- I would take the DM 302 or 303 over the Bose 901. So I'll explain myself more clearly.

As Kex noted and in which I fully agree. You take a speaker like the N802 which is about $10kCad -- the price has fluctuated over the dollar up to 11k down to 9k...but it's in this ballpark. Many people have mentioned that they have heard $2kcad speaker which are at least no worse some better. So what I am saying is that B&W has created a speaker largely marketing driven with sexy looks and are charging 5 TIMES the price of other speakers which are no worse and maybe better. This is the ultimate Bose marketing machine -- only it is the Bose marketing machine to higher end shoppers -- basically we're just adding a zero to the numbers. Bose charges 5 times the price for their speakers due to name recognition and branding and packaging -- you can buy their $1200.00Cdn surround package and get its equal someplace else for $300-$500.00Cad.

That was my point. B&W has shifted from solid to very good for the money to retreads of earlier designs for big money -- the only speaker line their line-up that I feel is still offerring good value for the dollar is the 600 series -- and incidentally it's the line that has had the price stay relatively the same and the design is largely the same. The 700 series went way up over the previous line and is not better - the CM series always has been overpriced.

The speakers that were heralded as great bang for buck products the DM 302, CDM 2SE, Matrix 805 were dropped completely or replaced with a more expensive worse soudning sepaker. This is just an opinion folks I'm not claiming this as any sort of fact you have to believe -- it's just my take on watching one of my favorite speaker makers (at one time my favorite) seemingly coast on the name.

As for drivers -- in isolation means nothing -- it's how well it works together the article TAH used to always post I cannot remember the fellow's name but he goes over the sound properties of ALL drivers and their strengths and weaknesses -- metal has poor break-up (and don;t think that just applies to loud listening or when the driver is stressed - because it does not though it is most noticeable there). If the drivers are out of sink by even small degrees that is far more distracting than any short frequency anomoly which are ears are far less sensitive too. The CDM 1NT which I like was not free from this problem and can and was distracting when apparent GAPS in the music would form when acoustic instruments would have a clearly audible lapse and significant beaming. I recommended the speaker nevertheless because of price/overall performance. 705 actually has improved it a bit but took several steps back to my ear in virtually ever single other area and costs more and looks worse. (all subjective listening with outstanding gear in real listening environments).

I know people love B&W -- People love BOSE too.

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again -- naturally because all of a sudden he didn't agree with your TASTE. His name will come to me -- indeed I can do a search on this forum since I've quoted him several times.

[RGA]

First name Lynn rings a bell -- I'm thinking Lynn Olsen -- I'll keep looking.

[theaudiohobby]

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again -- naturally because all of a sudden he didn't agree with your TASTE. His name will come to me -- indeed I can do a search on this forum since I've quoted him several times.

RGA,

Next time do your research before you post, you have scored an own goal, follow this thread (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=179196&highlight=kevlar+ªlynn+John+Ashman&session=) and read the context of the post, John used Lynn's article to attack Kevlar. For the record, John Ashman posted that article in October 2004 (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=176215&highlight=kevlar+ªlynn+shoulder+John+Ashman&r=&session=), a full three months before this thread started, and quoted from the article on a least one occasion before thread in question, FTR in that article, Lynn said

I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically.
in other words, as previously stated, it is the implementation that matters, not the actual material.

I decided not to resist posting ;) this article by Lynn Olsen for you to mull over everytime you dream of the Ongaku, Lynn said of the LNPA 150 Class AB transistor amplifier (http://www.redesignsaudio.com/PosFeed.html)


In comparing this amp to the latest audiophile confected unveiled at the Winter 1995 CES, I'd have to say this one is still my favorite at any kind of sane price point. It's the only transistor I've heard so far that has soul and body to the sound, with a remarkable ability to convey the emotional tone of the performance; this is the normal preserve of the direct-heated single-ended 2A3 and 300B triode, not transistors arranged in the usual complementary-symmetry topology.
So much for the conventional wisdom, eh?...

I have to say, though, that marked the third time I've packed up an amplifier with a genuine sense of regret (the first two were the Audio Note Ongaku and the Reichert 300B's)..

and that was almost ten years ago, I leave you work out the implications of his comments.

[Buzz Roll]

I'm going to try to check out a pair of these speakers at my dealer here in NYC. I'm going in with low expectations, but I'll try to supply another view on them if I can.

BTW, audiohobby, I just have to say that I just sat in on a mix session with a pair of Genelec 8030As - not bad!! I at least owe you that information.

[theaudiohobby]

thanks, Buzz Roll :) ;)

[RGA]

RGA,

Next time do your research before you post, you have scored an own goal, follow this thread (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=179196&highlight=kevlar+ªlynn+John+Ashman&session=) and read the context of the post, John used Lynn's article to attack Kevlar. For the record, John Ashman posted that article in October 2004 (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=176215&highlight=kevlar+ªlynn+shoulder+John+Ashman&r=&session=), a full three months before this thread started, and quoted from the article on a least one occasion before thread in question, FTR in that article, Lynn said
in other words, as previously stated, it is the implementation that matters, not the actual material.

I decided not to resist posting ;) this article by Lynn Olsen for you to mull over everytime you dream of the Ongaku, Lynn said of the LNPA 150 Class AB transistor amplifier (http://www.redesignsaudio.com/PosFeed.html)

and that was almost ten years ago, I leave you work out the implications of his comments.

you should also know that Lynn's ONLY kevlar exception is that of scanspeak not of B&W -- did you e-mail to ask which one Lynn doesn;t like -- it's B&W just so you know which of course should be obvious since at the time B&W was the ONLY major company making speakers with Kevlar...so i'm not sure you were under the impression he was obviously referring to B&W or not -- but now you know.


Are you under some delusion that I believe AN is perfect or the best? That if I post a great response to an item that someone won't ever like something a bit better...The ongaku has been improved and downright changed 3 times since 1994 -- and there is the UK version which is about half the price now.

"The Ongaku, by far, had the worst THD and power measurements ... 22W at 3%
distortion. It also made the Ariel sound better than any electrostat I've
ever heard ... in fact, the best sound I'd heard in many years. It
certainly sounded better than anything I heard at the 1994 Winter CES. So
what's going on here? Maybe THD is simply measuring the wrong thing"

Suffice it to say it's a great amplifier which he liked more than the Reichert. The SS amp was also sent packing -- there is no indication he likes it any better than theRecihert or the ongaku the latter isn't at a sane price which is why he had to return it -- he can't afford it...not many can. So if you read what he says clearly he likes the SS amp as his favorite at a SANE price -- which means it is NOT his favorite at ANY price. Though I would be interested to hear this SS amp because very few are at all good so I'm sure he's probably right that this one is a standout.

I'm sure he can find better than the 1993-94 Ongaku --- he just needs to look up the new ones.

"From Lynn
"At the present, though, even the best Kevlar, carbon-fiber, or aluminum
designs show at least one high-Q peak at the top of the working range,
requiring a sharp crossover, a notch filter, or preferably both to control
the peak. Unfortunately, this peak usually falls in a region between 3 and
5 kHz, right where the ear is most sensitive to resonant coloration."

B&W Corssover 4khz (as many have said a BAD choice)

"There are highly-reviewed (by the large-circulation "underground"
magazines[ie B&W]) 2-way speakers that use 7" Kevlar drivers[ie B&W] crossed over to
metal-dome tweeters[ie B&W]. Technically, these loudspeakers operate with uniform
motion over the range of both drivers; in practice, though, the crossovers
are hard pressed to remove all of the energy from the Kevlar breakup region
between 3 and 5 kHz."

"The reviews of these particular 2-way speakers go on at considerable, and
amusing, length about the trials in finding an amplifier that "revealed"
the full quality of the loudspeaker. In reality, the reviewer was forced to
use an amplifier that was particularly free of coloration in the region
where the Kevlar driver was breaking up. Since most audiophiles and
reviewers are unfamilar with the direct sound (and measurements) of
commonly-used raw drivers, they can't evaluate how much "Kevlar sound", or
"aluminum sound", remains as a residue in the finished design."

"This is a problem, by the way, that plagues all [ALL means B&W] current 2-way Kevlar,
metal, or carbon-fiber loudspeakers ... at the current state of the art,
the 6.5" or 7" drivers are forced to operate right up to the edge of their
working ranges in order to meet the tweeter in a moderate-distortion
frequency range."

"If you lower the crossover frequency, tweeter IM distortion skyrockets,
resulting in raspy, distorted high frequencies at mid-to-high listening
levels; if you raise the crossover frequency, the Kevlar breakup creeps in,
resulting in a forward, aggressive sound at moderate listening levelsunlike paper cones, Kevlar, metal, and
carbon fibers do not go into gradual breakup)."

Which is why they don;t sound very cohesive

"I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically."

"As mentioned above, rigid cones have advantages, but are difficult to damp
completely. A different approach is to use a cone material that is made
from a highly lossy material (traditionally, this was plastic-doped paper,
but this has been supplanted by polypropylene in most modern loudspeakers).
The cone then damps itself, progressively losing energy as the impulse from
the voice coil spreads outwards across the cone surface. The choice of
spider and surround are then much less critical.

This type of material[POLYPROLYENE] typically measures quite flat and also allows a
simple 6dB/Octave crossover; personally, though, I don't care for the sound
of most polypropylene drivers, finding them rather vague and
blurry-sounding at low-to-medium listening levels. {Read Paradigm et al} Without access to a B&K
swept IM distortion analyzer, I have to resort to guesswork, but I strongly
suspect that this type of cone has fairly high IM distortion since it is
quite soft. In addition, it is quite difficult to make a material that has
perfectly linear mechanical attenuation; in practice, distortion creeps in
when you actually want a progressive attenuation of energy over the surface
of the cone."

And back to Kevlar -

"A unique and quite desirable property of the latest Scan-Speak Kevlar
drivers is a smooth rolloff region above the usual Kevlar peak. All of the
other Kevlar drivers [ALL MEANS B&W] (that I have measured and listened to) have chaotic
breakup regions; the Scan-Speaks are the only ones [ONLY MEANS NOT B&W that appear
well-controlled in this region..."

B&W does not use Scan-Speak (Note the part ALL OF THE OTHERS).

Now do you believe that Lynn Olsen has NEVER in his life designing and reviewing has NEVER EVER HEARD A SINGLE B&W SPEAKER USING KEVLAR??????????????

:rolleyes: PLEASE!!

[theaudiohobby]

Sigh :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
You said.

I hope it's MILES better than the N802 which is already in tough against several $2kCad speakers in the listenability departments for me. It needs cohesion, bass, and a smoother treble...we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO.

to which I replied

What do you know about diamond or even Kevlar... , I am okay with your criticism of the sound just not too sure why you singled out certain materials for criticism, I thought it was about the whole package.
then you replied (emphasis mine)

TAH
As for implementation of materials well I have yet to hear a speaker using a metal tweeeter from anyone I would want to own and listen to every day -- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert yuou always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. I notice because you didn;t read it close enough you never post hm anymore -- just selective if it supports your preference...
to which I replied

I do not know who you referring to, but at least you refer to him as an expert, are you? What do you know about the sound of kevlar, paper, diamond, silk and the various iterations thereof?
to which you replied

TAh you know full well who I'm referring too since you posted the link all over the net for months and months and I will look for it hard if you're afraid to post it. He is a designer and reviewer who posted all the driver properties advantages and disadvantages of each kind --Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again

to which I replied that Lynn Olsen said


I should add, by the way, that I like Kevlar and carbon-fiber drivers very
much ... but they are difficult drivers to work with, with strong resonant
signatures that must be controlled acoustically and electrically.

to which you now reply saying


you should also know that Lynn's ONLY kevlar exception is that of scanspeak not of B&W -- did you e-mail to ask which one Lynn doesn;t like -- it's B&W just so you know which of course should be obvious since at the time B&W was the ONLY major company making speakers with Kevlar...so i'm not sure you were under the impression he was obviously referring to B&W or not -- but now you know.


Hello...what is the relevance of this twaddle when I originally said


...not too sure why you singled out certain materials for criticism, I thought it was about the whole package.

Lynn said he that he liked Kevlar very much but it is difficult to work with, whether he likes or does not like B&W Kevlar implementation is another matter entirely, he clearly states that he likes Kevlar and recommends a preferred crossover design, yet you say that he trashed Kevlar Sigh.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Now to off topic issue that you raised earlier, you said



Once I and John Ashman pointed out to you that he ripped Kevlar drivers and that he owns an Audio Note amplifier claimning it to be by far the worst measuring unit but by far the best sounding -- you never posted it again

And I said that Lynn said of the LNPA 150 transistor power amp


.I have to say, though, that marked the third time I've packed up an amplifier with a genuine sense of regret (the first two were the Audio Note Ongaku and the Reichert 300B's)..

Then you said



Are you under some delusion that I believe AN is perfect or the best? That if I post a great response to an item that someone won't ever like something a bit better...The ongaku has been improved and downright changed 3 times since 1994 -- and there is the UK version which is about half the price now.

"The Ongaku, by far, had the worst THD and power measurements ... 22W at 3%
distortion. It also made the Ariel sound better than any electrostat I've
ever heard ... in fact, the best sound I'd heard in many years. It
certainly sounded better than anything I heard at the 1994 Winter CES. So
what's going on here? Maybe THD is simply measuring the wrong thing"

Hello..he listened to both amplifers between months of each other, between CES 1994 and CES 1995, more importantly he said that it challenged conventional wisdom which included amongst other things "Thou shalt use direct-heated triodes, preferably in single-ended circuits" and in that article Lynn says

One of the unsettling things about being both a reviewer and a designer is having the "conventional wisdom" knocked on its head on a regular basis....

Karna, my sweetie, was so taken by the overall quality of sound she lobbied heavily for us to buy the amps outright..and this the lady that was converted to ultra-fi by the Ongaku experience

As you can see there is only one person who is delusional here and it is you.

[RGA]

oh no people who follow your B&W love in know very well that for several months you were trying to say that Lynn was not referring to B&W when he mentioned that kevlar does not work...you try always to weasal out of it -- the ONLY kevlar driver he likes is Scanspeak -- I have no problem with Scanspeak since I have not heard its implementation -- when i refer to kevlar I refer to B&W since They use it more than everyone else. Kevlar is synonymous WITH B&W and I am Trying to tell you that Lynn thinks B&W's use of it basically SUCKS donkey balls. You kept denying that he was referring to B&W -- which is OBVIOUSLY NOT THE CASE!

And with the amps -- again you don't read very close -- he sent all three amps back. The SS amp is for SANE money he likes -- it sounds very good to him yes organic like SET yes -- Show me where he says the following "This amp blows the Ongaku and or Rechert to the weeds" Nowhere is this said nor is it even implied. The Ongaku is a $90,000US integrated amplifier -- that is not a sanely priced competitor. He can't afford the Ongaku -- it is the same reason Steven Rochlin the editor of enjoythemusic sent it back (actually he bought and had to sell it for financial reasons).

[Florian]

I have to agree, B&W is just a huge marketing gimmik company and its going towards the BOSE direction when it comes to marketing and being overprized. Kevlar, Diamond tweeter are materials that the typical joeblow says "wow" too and thats why they use it. Look at the HE2005, B&W had the hugest showroom floors and use a 5xNautilus 801 setup with life music. I can tell you, it sucked !! The dealers get like freaking 60% off plus deliverly to their door. They are the most easiest to sell speakers there are, and also the most overprized. My speakers use wood and aluminum foil, you find your sandwhich rapped with and i am not afraid of comparing test to a Nautilus Presitige or any other speaker for that matter.

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

oh no people who follow your B&W love in know very well that for several months you were trying to say that Lynn was not referring to B&W when he mentioned that kevlar does not work...you try always to weasal out of it -- the ONLY kevlar driver he likes is Scanspeak -- I have no problem with Scanspeak since I have not heard its implementation -- when i refer to kevlar I refer to B&W since They use it more than everyone else. Kevlar is synonymous WITH B&W and I am Trying to tell you that Lynn thinks B&W's use of it basically SUCKS donkey balls. You kept denying that he was referring to B&W -- which is OBVIOUSLY NOT THE CASE!


most of what of you just said is irrelevant trivia, however

Now you say that "I have no problem with Scanspeak since I have not heard its implementation -- when i refer to kevlar I refer to B&W" showing that your original comments on Kevlar sound was a pointless and wrong generalisation.

Also YOU ARE WERE WRONG in your assessment of Lynn Olsen overall opinion of Kevlar and your comments so far show that you know next to nothing about the sound of various driver materials.

If you are interested in discussing various kevlar implementations in detail, start a new thread. Secondly, Olsen did not explicitly mention B&W, so your conclusion is only suggestive.



And with the amps -- again you don't read very close -- he sent all three amps back. The SS amp is for SANE money he likes -- it sounds very good to him yes organic like SET yes -- Show me where he says the following "This amp blows the Ongaku and or Rechert to the weeds" Nowhere is this said nor is it even implied. The Ongaku is a $90,000US integrated amplifier -- that is not a sanely priced competitor. He can't afford the Ongaku -- it is the same reason Steven Rochlin the editor of enjoythemusic sent it back (actually he bought and had to sell it for financial reasons).

Another piece of irrelevant trivia? Did I suggest at anytime that he preferred the SS amplifier to the Ongaku? Olsen explicitly stated that a particular Class AB transistor amplifier with negative feedback (sacriledge? :p :p ) possessed the organic qualities that he always thought were the exclusive preserve of the best SET amplifcation, at a fraction of the price of the Ongaku.He goes as far as saying that he prefers this particular amplifier to ANY other amplifier in that price category. Ponder the implications.

As I said earlier, there is only one person here who is delusional (and probably insecure), and it is you.

[RGA]

HAHAHA -- still believe he's not talking about B&W.

E-mail him

Ongaku has been reviewed by Dick Olsher, Alvin Gold, Jonathan Kettle, Mike Kuller, Lynn Olsen and many others - the only non-perfect aspect of the ONGAKU that any of them could find was that they couldn't afford it!

Frankly it's overpriced no matter what it sounds like -- and as I have said many many times -- and should have said it earlier -- who the hell cares what these people think -- unless you agree with them -- you obviously would buy a B&W speaker -- LYNN based on what is available at this moment in time would not. So right there you are not the same as him and neither am I.

Lynn
"I'd rather have less distortion in the forward path than clean up the mess afterward with feedback."

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tubediy&n=37012&highlight=ongaku+Lynn+Olson&r=&session=

"As for myself, I like the sound of my own speakers (or whatever I'm currently modifying), and all-trans-coupled Class A PP DHT's. Commercially-available high-end audio leaves me cold, so I design to my own preferences, and publish as I go. You're lucky you've heard commercially available equipment that appeals to you; for me, that is so extremely rare I don't even try emulating the handful of equipment I've liked in the last decade or so. I like the original Reichert SE-300B Silver, Ongaku and WAVAC HE-833, but have no intention of designing or building anything remotely similar.

I enjoy meeting the original designers (not the marketers!) at trade shows and finding out their design priorities and the way they solve problems. The only part of the CES I enjoy is the designer-meets; the sonics at that show almost always drive me out of the room immediately. I guess my tastes have diverged so far from the Stereophile/Absolute Sound high-end mainstream that I have to find my own way now." September 2003

Guess he'd hate your amplifier and mine and the Naim you rave about so why quote people who don't hear it like you? Sure he doesn't like much.

"Strengths? Startling transparency, spatial qualities, and reverb tails that fade ever so gradually into the deep velvet blackness. This is Ongaku-grade performance, about as good as it gets. You *will* hear what your source is doing. The 47's sound very much like 45's, which is a good thing."

Pretty much every amp he talks about is references back to a handful of amplifiers of which one is the Ongaku -- there is no doubt that he considers it ONE OF, which does not mean the only, best amplifiers available -- to which I say "It bloody well OUGHTA be for that kind of coin."

[theaudiohobby]

Sigh.....yet more irrelevance Sigh...and that from someone who said a few posts ago

Are you under some delusion that I believe AN is perfect or the best?

even your Olsen link is off-topic, LOL :D :D, do you understand the meaning of context at all?

I do not care who Olsen is referring to nor in any of his innuendo, it is irrelevant to this sub thread, read some excerpts from some of your original posts

we shall see - diamond sounds gimmicky to me - kevlar was IMO. ?
and

-- I have yet to hear a speaker using kevlar I would want to own everyday. The link from that expert you always posted read it over -- he'll tell you all about Kevlar. ?
and now

...and as I have said many many times -- and should have said it earlier -- who the hell cares what these people think -- unless you agree with them...
and even


Guess he'd hate your amplifier and mine and the Naim you rave about so why quote people who don't hear it like you? Sure he doesn't like much.

Get a grip, you brought Lynn Olsen into the equation :rolleyes: :rolleyes: , call me when you have finished concocting and twisting :p :p :p.

[topspeed]

Peter, thanks for the link.


Too bad this has digressed into one of the lamest arguments I've ever encountered on AR...and there have been some doosies!

To those of you that believe diamond tweeters are a gimmick, I think the engineers at Avalon, Marten Designs, Kharma, and B&W will politely disagree. But then again, you know far more than these guys so by all means continue to trash away.

To those of you that believe kevlar is a gimmick, I think the recording engineers at Skywalker sound, Abbey Road, and a host of others will politely disagree. But then again, you know far more than these guys so by all means continue to trash away.

Why does B&W charge as much as they do? Because they can. This is Business 101. Over the years, they have built up name equity, much like Mercedes Benz. However, are you going to b!tch at MB for selling $70,000 cars that aren't nearly as good from a quality stand point as a Toyota at 1/5 the cost? Of course not, because both are aspirational brands and that brings with it a whole different set of expectations. This is why B&W sports one of the highest resale retention rates of any speaker. You don't like them? So what. Other people do. Get over it and stop trying to push your opinion on others.

[Florian]

I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

-Flo

[topspeed]

We're the fanboys?

This from the self proclaimed Lord Magnepan.

No bias there, eh ;)

[RGA]

Topspeed. Remember though that just because a company says it's better does not make it so...the word diamond has a connotation that comes with it and IF B&W is more about marketing than sound then it may very well be another gimmick and not an improvement. Abbey road is using loudspeakers from B&W that have no kevlar drivers. Skywalker Sound just released the new Star Wars DVD set which has been roundly hailed as a sonic disaster.

[Woochifer]

Topspeed. Remember though that just because a company says it's better does not make it so...the word diamond has a connotation that comes with it and IF B&W is more about marketing than sound then it may very well be another gimmick and not an improvement. Abbey road is using loudspeakers from B&W that have no kevlar drivers. Skywalker Sound just released the new Star Wars DVD set which has been roundly hailed as a sonic disaster.

Sonic disaster? No, the complaints that have been lodged at the Star Wars set have centered on the flipping of the music in the surround channels. That was a mistake by the recording engineer (easy enough to do when compiling everything digitally with Pro Tools), and nothing to do with the types of monitors used in the control room. Otherwise, the sonics on the Star Wars DVDs have been universally praised, particularly the remixes on Empire and Jedi. Plenty of other movies have been mixed at Skywalker Sound (which is frequently regarded as one of the most advanced mixing facilities in the world), and they sound just fine.

[Woochifer]

We're the fanboys?

This from the self proclaimed Lord Magnepan.

No bias there, eh ;)

topspeed -

Yer makin' WAY too much sense here, what's gotten into you? :D

This has been an amusing thread given that it started innocently enough when Peter Duminy simply posted a review of the 800D, and every other fanboy response has come from people who have not even heard the speaker in question. Just a lot of baseless presumption and self-righteous soapbox fodder. Amazing what happens when people get so wedded to their proclamations that they can no longer fathom that their world view isn't universally shared.

[topspeed]

Remember though that just because a company says it's better does not make it so.True enough. I might also suggest that just because Peter Q says it's better does not make it so as well.

I'll let my own ears be the judge, thanks.



Amazing what happens when people get so wedded to their proclamations that they can no longer fathom that their world view isn't universally shared. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Florian]

I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

-Flo

[Florian]

I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

-Flo

[thepogue]

And topspeed, without getting too close to you. But your system is so far away from High End that i dont think you can really eveluate those systems at all. You are properbly very impressed by a Nautilus 800.....actually the only reason why that old snell looking nautilus is there is because people cant afford it and settle for a cheap 7NT because it contains the same technology (#).....Can you say, "i fell for it" ?

If you grave for a 800 Nautilus, i can tell you that much. " You have no idea what your missing"....because that Diamond tweeter aint gonna give it to you.

-Flo
you go from making good points to name calling...makes your valid points kinda look lame..stop that or you'll be sent to your room...all of you...Lord Whatever and all your other names...with no dinner


Pogue

[Florian]

I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

-Flo

[Woochifer]

And topspeed/woochiefer, without getting too close to you both. But your systems is so far away from High End that i dont think you can really eveluate those systems at all . You are properbly very impressed by a Nautilus 800.....actually the only reason why that old snell looking nautilus (prestige) is there is because people cant afford it and settle for a cheap 7NT because it contains the same technology.....Can you say, "i fell for it" ?

If you grave for a 800 Nautilus, i can tell you that much. " You have no idea what your missing"....because that Diamond tweeter aint gonna give it to you.

-Flo

Without getting too close to you, that's the most self-righteous, pompous, and ridiculously presumptuous piece of crap post that I've yet seen on this site in my five years here. That type of conceitedly snobbish attitude is exactly the kind of sentiment that gives all audiophiles a bad name.

Just because I don't own a system that in your arrogant estimation equates to "high end", I'm therefore incapable of eliciting an opinion on those kinds of components? Frankly, you don't know squat about the amount of listening I've done or the types of components that I've been around in my many years in the audio hobby. And has it ever occurred to you that people buy their audio systems because it fits their preferences and meets their particular budgetary requirements, rather than because it meets some arbitrary definition of "high end" or impresses people with the five-figure price tags?

If someone likes the B&W Nautillus 800, it's only because they don't know better? I suggest you check yourself right now, because statements like the one that you made above border on the ridiculous since you have no clue what people have listened to and what their basis of comparison actually is.

All in all, you'd best do your own credibility some favors by refraining from presuming the types of components that I or anybody else would be impressed by.

[StanleyMuso]

Like most audiophiles, I am interested in the technical aspects of the equipment that I'm interested in, but I have long ago discovered that good sound does not necessarily equate with the materials or technology used. There is obviously a lot of art involved as well to meld all the disperate components into something which sounds great. Just because all the materials are top class and all the technology is the latest, does not guarantee anything.

Of course B&W promotes its wares heavily. I would not expect anything different in our commercial world. Do you pan Merc, or Beemer, or Ford for that matter, for advertsing and promoting their wares? Its still up to us as consumers to weed out the chaff and find that special product which is just right for us. Of course, what is just right for me may be utter crap to my neighbour. Such is life - I married the girl that I did because she lit my fires, but I can't figure out what the guy next door could posibly see in the woman he married. That's what makes life so interesting.

Although this discussion has gone off track, I have on the whole found it interesting. What I personally find insulting is the obviously snobbish remarks creeping in about people who don't own, or can't afford, high end gear. I identify myself as middle class and due to family and other commitments, could never afford the type of gear I would like to own. Do I therefore deserve the derision of the high income snobs who have more money than good sense?

My choices have always revolved about the best equipment I could buy for what I could afford - in other words, value for money. Even if I win the lottery, I would never go for the really high end products. Frequently, value lies in the middle ranges, not at the top or bottom.

Confession time - 6 months ago I bought the B&W 703 (my hi-fi store offered me a deal I could not refuse, 30% off), after searching, on and off, for about five years to replace a set of speakers originally bought in 1980 and which had their tone altered when they were re-woofered. I really wanted to like a number of much cheaper speakers, but even many in the 703's price range, to my ear at least, sounded as if they were playing through cotton wool - muffled and indistinct. Side by side, originally starting with the CDM 9NT, I compared many speakers over the past 5 years, and initially, only listened to B&W for comparison because I did not think I could afford them. I like all type of music, but especially with songs, whether operatic or jazz, I found I could actually hear the words being sung, unlike a lot of speakers where I had to strain. Oops, this post is getting longer than I intended. Let me just summarise - after an initial period of disappointment where I thought I had made a mistake because at first the speakers sounded harsh, I now love them. Partly it was break in, but a lot was dependent on positioning - these have to be a long way from the back wall. They serve general duty for music, TV and DVD. For music at least, my sub has become redundent.

And, most of all, at my listening position, I do not detect that lack of integration between the seperate drivers alluded to by posters above. One last point - I actually listen to real music (live concerts, a lot). I used to play the violin, my daughter competed in international violin competions, my son plays jazz piano and clarinet and my wife teaches piano. My ears are attuned to real music, not just the canned artificial variety. My basis of comparison is always the live performance, and even the most expensive rigs fail to reproduce absolute realism.

[topspeed]

And topspeed/woochiefer, without getting too close to you both. But your systems is so far away from High End that i dont think you can really eveluate those systems at all . You are properbly very impressed by a Nautilus 800.....actually the only reason why that old snell looking nautilus (prestige) is there is because people cant afford it and settle for a cheap 7NT because it contains the same technology.....Can you say, "i fell for it" ?

If you grave for a 800 Nautilus, i can tell you that much. " You have no idea what your missing"....because that Diamond tweeter aint gonna give it to you.

-Flo
Flo,

I'm going to remember your stunted age here and chalk your response up to youthful naivity (or sheer stupidity, whichever fits best). As Wooch stated, this smacks of the kind of self-righteous elitism that makes the word "audiophile" a 4 letter word. It's actually comical that you've anointed yourself with hearing superior to all others. Perhaps a new moniker of Lord GoldenEars is in order? In a few years, perhaps after you're old enough for your testicles to drop, you'll look back on your post and realize its inanity.

While I wish I could be as eloquent as my friend, alas the words escape me. I also don't see the point in debasing myself by justifying my level of experience. In the end, I would suggest that you refrain from making such huge assumptions about people. You know what happens when you make assumptions:

You make an ass out of you and umption.

[theaudiohobby]

And topspeed/woochiefer, without getting too close to you both. But your systems is so far away from High End that i dont think you can really eveluate those systems at all . You are properbly very impressed by a Nautilus 800.....actually the only reason why that old snell looking nautilus (prestige) is there is because people cant afford it and settle for a cheap 7NT because it contains the same technology.....Can you say, "i fell for it" ?

If you grave for a 800 Nautilus, i can tell you that much. " You have no idea what your missing"....because that Diamond tweeter aint gonna give it to you.

-Flo

Sigh... :rolleyes: I will just put these silly remarks down to youthful exurberance.

[jdm56]

Being a new B&W owner, I of course was interested in this thread. And it's turned out to be quite lively, to say the least! Funny how heated discussions about audio can get.

I have not heard the new 800D, or any of the newest 800 line, so I can't comment about them, but I would like to offer an opinion about B&W and value. In my limited experience, I find B&W to offer competitive value at most price points, if you really closely compare. I have not heard the 300 series, but I find the 600's to be very competitive in their class. And also the 700's. The 700's may seem overpriced at first glance, but if you consider driver and cabinet quality, and all-around performance, I feel they are competitive, although perhaps less so than the 600's. The 800N series are, IMO simply the most refined, technologically solid speakers on the market. No hocus-pocus, no bs, just pure engineering expertise. Although they are pretty much all out of my price range, I do lust after them!

So far, I've just dealt with performance, engineering, and build quality issues, and just on those terms alone I think B&W offers fair value. But then, you have to factor in some of the less tangible things that effect value. For example, I value conservatism in a loudspeaker manufacturer. I don't like flavor-of-the-week, market-driven companies that change out speaker lines like I change the oil in my car. I also value doing business with a company that has been around awhile, and that I have confidence in to be around a long while to come. Resale value, as someone mentioned, is also something to consider. And B&W is extremely strong in that area too.

So to me, if you look at the big picture, B&W definitely does offer competitive value across most of it's line. My 703's certainly aren't the cheapest thing in their size class, but in their quality class, I think they're darned hard to beat!

[thepogue]

Being a new B&W owner, I of course was interested in this thread. And it's turned out to be quite lively, to say the least! Funny how heated discussions about audio can get.

I have not heard the new 800D, or any of the newest 800 line, so I can't comment about them, but I would like to offer an opinion about B&W and value. In my limited experience, I find B&W to offer competitive value at most price points, if you really closely compare. I have not heard the 300 series, but I find the 600's to be very competitive in their class. And also the 700's. The 700's may seem overpriced at first glance, but if you consider driver and cabinet quality, and all-around performance, I feel they are competitive, although perhaps less so than the 600's. The 800N series are, IMO simply the most refined, technologically solid speakers (#) on the market. No hocus-pocus, no bs, just pure engineering expertise. Although they are pretty much all out of my price range, I do lust after them!

So far, I've just dealt with performance, engineering, and build quality issues, and just on those terms alone I think B&W offers fair value. But then, you have to factor in some of the less tangible things that effect value. For example, I value conservatism in a loudspeaker (#) manufacturer. I don't like flavor-of-the-week, market-driven companies that change out speaker lines like I change the oil in my car. I also value doing business with a company that has been around awhile, and that I have confidence in to be around a long while to come. Resale value, as someone mentioned, is also something to consider. And B&W is extremely strong in that area too.

So to me, if you look at the big picture, B&W definitely does offer competitive value across most of it's line. My 703's certainly aren't the cheapest thing in their size class, but in their quality class, I think they're darned hard to beat!
I fully respect your position because it's well thought out, clear and honest. Good for you...when you approach equipment shopping in this manner you'll never be sorry...BTW I've spend at least 4 or 5 hours with the 800D and they are very special indeed...but I think it's the 20K part that I get stuck on....


Peace and well written post, Pogue

[Florian]

I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

-Flo

[Florian]

I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

-Flo

[Florian]

I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

-Flo

[kexodusc]

But i still stand by my opinion that you need to own those systems in order to pass god judement !!

-Flo

ROFLMAO! This has got to be the most absolutely foolish statement I have ever read on this board.
While you may judge the quality of your speakers based on price alone, for those of us that actually listen to speakers instead of judge by pricetag, this statement isn't worth the cyber-space it occupies.

Any human being, even you, can listen to 2 pairs of $200 speakers and determine which sounds better to them. Owning $45,000 speakers isn't a prerequisite for this.

This the 2nd time inside a month you've managed to bring your elitist "my expensive gear is better than your inexpensive gear" attitude to a thread and piss off the general public.
Good job, Mr. Moderator...it looks good on you.



the line between Hifi and High End is big and its there, you guys need to accept that

Oh your worshipfulness, please shed your infinite audio wisdom upon on us so that we who are blind can see the line you speak of...tell us specifically, at what point does Hi-Fi end and High-End begin?
Please qualify your statments...We'll call them Florian's Rules of Audio...


i can easily sell my current speakers (not VMPs or Maggies) and buy at least two nautiluses....but why dont i? Because they are not even worth a third of their price in my book. And pretty much every other serious audiophile

Wow, you've spoken with every serious audiophile? That must have taken some time...
By the way, what is a "serious audiophile"? Are there audiophiles that aren't serious, just joking around perhaps when they listen to dozens of speakers when determining their next purchase? Perhaps you have to spend so much money to be an audiophile?

[Florian]

I disagree with the statments on this thread. While i still think that only the people who own this kind of equipment have the right to pass judgment correctly, i am sure that almost everyone can tell the difference between two speakers in the same price range.

-Flo

PS: Eventough i am a moderator for the gallery, does not mean that i have to agree with all.

[theaudiohobby]

While i still think that only the people who own this kind of equipment have the right to pass judgment correctly.

Nope, You do not need to own another 20K speaker to correctly judge the sound quality of similar priced speakers.

[Florian]

Well thats were i disagree. You need to spend time with a component and try it in your own room with different electronics in order to pass judgement. By liking a lower end model , one cannot state that the higer model is better. The Nautilus 800 which is a fine speaker, sounds very different from a 700 series. It also requires much higher electronics to sound good. I just think that if you dont run equipment like a Nautilus 802, VMPS RM40/RMX, Maggie 3.6 or big Dynaudio etc... you are not able to correctly judge systems of this caliper.

-Flo

[kexodusc]

Florian, you're making no sense at all... If you are incapable of judging gear unless you already own similarly performing gear, how in the hell could you ever be confident you are upgrading your system? How would you ever buy a speaker in of a higher level than you already have?
Gonna take audiophile recommendations at face-value? Yeah right...

[Florian]

Either its a language barrier that i cant brake or i am simply an idiot today. I will just stop for now.

-Flo

[RGA]

Without getting too close to you, that's the most self-righteous, pompous, and ridiculously presumptuous piece of crap post that I've yet seen on this site in my five years here. That type of conceitedly snobbish attitude is exactly the kind of sentiment that gives all audiophiles a bad name.

And that's saying something since I post here eh Woochifer :D :D :D

[RGA]

You know this thread has made me realize why I stopped posting on Rottentomatoes.com -- It's fun to argue about movies and speakers because they are subjective responses to what we see experience and in audio hear(though we also see and experience it).

There is one golden rule -- never assume that just because it costs more it's better. And if there is a secondary rule it would be -- Even if it is better is it better enough towarrant the price.

I recently heard the Wilson Sophia loudspeakers which retail for $16k Cdn and while they were very listenable and well done I can tell you that there is no way on earth I would trade my speakers for them because the Sophia in my listening just isn't as well integrated and doesn't do the job for me. There are lots of folks though who swear by the Sophia...who's right is who is holding the cheque at the time.

I understand panel fans because panesl tend to sound very different dfrom everything else -- but lots of people have heard panels who don't like them and this is true for every speaker.

[Peter Duminy]

Quote from RGA:

You know this thread has made me realize why I stopped posting on Rottentomatoes.com


We could always start a new Forum - RottenVoicecoils.net :D

[StanleyMuso]

You may be entitled to your opinions, just like the rest of us. But just because you are the moderator, you need to show a little more respect, be a little more tolerant, understanding and less insulting. I read these columns often, but don't post frequently, but this time I felt compelled to put in my little bit. Your assumptions upset me considerably. How can you be so dogmatic? Has money gone to your head? Or is it that famous Germanic arrogance we often hear about? I hope not, because I have a lot of German friends and none of them are like that.

Expensive does not necessarily mean "good". I have listened to a lot of high end stuff over the long years I have been impassioned by this hobby (and from other posters I would presume that its been over a longer period than you have been alive), and I can tell you, even stratospherically priced stuff has often left me feeling cold and uninvolved. And I buy stuff for my own satisfaction, and not for bragging rights. If you buy it for bragging rights, you must be really insecure, and perhaps a good psychologist could help you. I notice you often brag about the expense of your equipment in your posts. Does the expense of your stuff make you feel that you are better than the rest of us? If that is so, you suffer from a poverty of spirit.

[theaudiohobby]

Florian, you're making no sense at all... If you are incapable of judging gear unless you already own similarly performing gear, how in the hell could you ever be confident you are upgrading your system? How would you ever buy a speaker in of a higher level than you already have?Gonna take audiophile recommendations at face-value? Yeah right...

The point exactly.

[Florian]

You may be entitled to your opinions, just like the rest of us. But just because you are the moderator, you need to show a little more respect, be a little more tolerant, understanding and less insulting. I read these columns often, but don't post frequently, but this time I felt compelled to put in my little bit. Your assumptions upset me considerably. How can you be so dogmatic? Has money gone to your head? Or is it that famous Germanic arrogance we often hear about? I hope not, because I have a lot of German friends and none of them are like that.

Expensive does not necessarily mean "good". I have listened to a lot of high end stuff over the long years I have been impassioned by this hobby (and from other posters I would presume that its been over a longer period than you have been alive), and I can tell you, even stratospherically priced stuff has often left me feeling cold and uninvolved. And I buy stuff for my own satisfaction, and not for bragging rights. If you buy it for bragging rights, you must be really insecure, and perhaps a good psychologist could help you. I notice you often brag about the expense of your equipment in your posts. Does the expense of your stuff make you feel that you are better than the rest of us? If that is so, you suffer from a poverty of spirit.
I do agree that i went over the top and i am sorry for it, but money has nothing to do with it. I am just against the general consumption that a speaker wich cost 20 or 30 thousand is not better than a 4 thousand dollar B&W. While i do agree that not all big prize speakers are better, i feel that the general high prized speakers are better than lower prized ones. I am not made of money and i properbly over the years paid around 10 thousand for it. I mind you this is over a period of 5 years and the system is well worth over 20 thousand now. I am NOT taking this price and use it as a general statment. I buy my equipment because i like it, not because of the prize tag. The price comes second in my opinion, because i will save my money for so long until i can afford what i want.

I had to make huge sacrifices in order to get the Apogee and to use it. Its big, heavy, not room friendly, room fusy, amplifier fusy and doesnt like 90% of all the electronics out there. But i bought it, knowing that i would not be able to drive them properbly because i loved the sound. They are not made anymore, and if they brake i could not afford to repair them.

I dont have a lot of money, i just spend it wisely for what i like. You guys are right by saying that more does not mean its better. BUT many high prize tag systems are better than lower end systems, and thats true too.

-Flo

PS: I know as a moderator i am supposed to be more relaxed and understanding, and i am working on it. I have been always nice to everyone in the gallery no matter how much their system costs. And i have always been supportive, even for B&W users ;-)

[StanleyMuso]

I went overboard in my criticism. Even an old codger like me sometimes forgets it is not wise to make a response while one is hot under the collar. It is best to make such responses when one has cooled down. I should never have made such personal comments.

Enjoy your system - I know what's it like to make sacrifices to own a bit of delicious gear.

[jdm56]

I fully respect your position because it's well thought out, clear and honest. Good for you...when you approach equipment shopping in this manner you'll never be sorry...BTW I've spend at least 4 or 5 hours with the 800D and they are very special indeed...but I think it's the 20K part that I get stuck on....


Peace and well written post, Pogue


:p Hey, I think it's debatable whether or not ANY speaker, even one with diamond tweeters can possibly be worth $20,000! I think high-end audio pricing has more to do with what someone will pay than any absolute value. I suppose as long as there is a market for gear at those prices, you could make a valid case that they are worth it, though. I'd love to have a pair, but I'm a working-class audiophile with a family, so they out of the question; which btw, causes me to lose no sleep at all! I can be very happy much lower down the food chain. I think the old law of diminishing returns starts kicking in pretty hard when you get past $2000/pr for loudspeakers.

[theaudiohobby]

:p Hey, I think it's debatable whether or not ANY speaker, even one with diamond tweeters can possibly be worth $20,000! I think high-end audio pricing has more to do with what someone will pay than any absolute value. I suppose as long as there is a market for gear at those prices, you could make a valid case that they are worth it, though. I'd love to have a pair, but I'm a working-class audiophile with a family, so they out of the question; which btw, causes me to lose no sleep at all! I can be very happy much lower down the food chain. I think the old law of diminishing returns starts kicking in pretty hard when you get past $2000/pr for loudspeakers.

Does any painting worth $20M? Does any car worth $1M? Does any house worth $70M? the list goes on and on. Does any speaker worth $20K? Some manufacturers thinks so, those in the market or who have bought such speakers also think so. If I like a 20K+ speakers and I can afford it, I will buy it, irrespective of diminishing returns.

[PAT.P]

Any of you guys received their DVD A SOUND EXPERIENCE ? I for one could say after looking at it I could say it looks like they do take time making these .As for the sound of them I'll have to listen to them just for the fun of it .I'll trust my ears and see if they are as great as their craftmanship.Pat.P

[E-Stat]

I think the old law of diminishing returns starts kicking in pretty hard when you get past $2000/pr for loudspeakers.
The same could be said for $20 ear bud headphones as well.

You'll never find the "magic" with $2k speakers.

rw

[PAT.P]

The same could be said for $20 ear bud headphones as well.

You'll never find the "magic" with $2k speakers.

rw
I'm curious but why dont you list your equipment ?Is there a reason ?And yes if money was not an issue I could find the magic with $2k ++++ speakers.Pat.P

[E-Stat]

I'm curious but why dont you list your equipment ?Is there a reason ?And yes if money was not an issue I could find the magic with $2k ++++ speakers.Pat.P
I really should list my equipment as I find it does give others a point of reference for my comments. Call my lazy. Until I do, here is a link that provides that answer:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/966.html

rw

[Florian]

I really should list my equipment as I find it does give others a point of reference for my comments.
This is a very good comment because i feel the same way. I list all my equipment and names like Apogee, Krell, VMPS or Pathos mean money. I do agree that you will not find the magic with 2K. Not saying there are no good speakers for 2K, but you wont find Audio Nirvana with those.

-Flo

[dean_martin]

This is a very good comment because i feel the same way. I list all my equipment and names like Apogee, Krell, VMPS or Pathos mean money. I do agree that you will not find the magic with 2K. Not saying there are no good speakers for 2K, but you wont find Audio Nirvana with those.

-Flo

Flo - when are you going to get rid of that cheap-assed Rega P2 and Rega phono amp analog rig? You don't even list your cartridge! It's time you moved up to a real analog rig. Your present one is severely lacking.

Therefore, you are prohibited from offering any comments or advice on turntables, tonearms, cartridges and phono preamps until you offer proof of owning a genuine "high end" rig!

[Florian]

Flo - when are you going to get rid of that cheap-assed Rega P2 and Rega phono amp analog rig? You don't even list your cartridge! It's time you moved up to a real analog rig. Your present one is severely lacking.

Therefore, you are prohibited from offering any comments or advice on turntables, tonearms, cartridges and phono preamps until you offer proof of owning a genuine "high end" rig!
That is true in every regard. Since i do not use the Analog section at all, i have absolutly no experience with it whatsoever. That is exactly the reason why you will not find one comment about Analog devices from me. Thanks for making my point ;-)

-Flo

[jdm56]

Does any painting worth $20M? Does any car worth $1M? Does any house worth $70M? the list goes on and on. Does any speaker worth $20K? Some manufacturers thinks so, those in the market or who have bought such speakers also think so. If I like a 20K+ speakers and I can afford it, I will buy it, irrespective of diminishing returns.


Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking spending more than 2K on a pair of speakers. I've spent more than that a number of times! My current speakers (B&W 703's) listed for $3000. I paid $2700. It's just that imho, around 2K is the point beyond which twice the bucks may not get you twice the sound quality. Of course, it's impossible to really make a hard, fast rule. There are some giant killers under 1K/pr.

FWIW, I think you can "get the magic for 2K" (or less). Try a pair of B&W 705's for $1500, or a pair of 805's for 2K. They may not get you deep bass or high spl's, but they definitely will give you a generous helping of the magic. If by magic you mean what I mean: A holographic, 3D soundstage and disappearing speakers!

[jdm56]

Any of you guys received their DVD A SOUND EXPERIENCE ? I for one could say after looking at it I could say it looks like they do take time making these .As for the sound of them I'll have to listen to them just for the fun of it .I'll trust my ears and see if they are as great as their craftmanship.Pat.P

yup, got it! also, i've got a similar DVD from Dynaudio. Both are impressive, but especially the B&W.

[Geoffcin]

This is a very good comment because i feel the same way. I list all my equipment and names like Apogee, Krell, VMPS or Pathos mean money. I do agree that you will not find the magic with 2K. Not saying there are no good speakers for 2K, but you wont find Audio Nirvana with those.

-Flo

Nirvana, if you take it at it's literal meaning, is a PERSONAL state of being. No one can tell anyone else what nirvana is. Certainly those in search of it can expound all sorts of philosophies about how to attain it, but in the end it is a personal experience.

[dean_martin]

That is true in every regard. Since i do not use the Analog section at all, i have absolutly no experience with it whatsoever. That is exactly the reason why you will not find one comment about Analog devices from me. Thanks for making my point ;-)

-Flo

You might be surprised if you funnel some of that money toward a nice analog rig. I prefer my budget analog over my budget digital. Plus, you can do a lot more tweaking and you can try a variety of cartridges. Once you're satisfied with your amp/speaker set-ups, you should set your sights on a nice high end analog rig. With your commitment, you should be able to come up with an awesome turntable/tonearm/cartridge/phono amp combo. I have to give you your props. As we say here in the states - you put your money where your mouth is.

[RGA]

Nirvana, if you take it at it's literal meaning, is a PERSONAL state of being. No one can tell anyone else what nirvana is. Certainly those in search of it can expound all sorts of philosophies about how to attain it, but in the end it is a personal experience.

And some people reach Nirvanna listening to Nirvanna - while they just give me a headache.

The notion that money is associated with reaching a cathartic experience with the music is as ludicrous as it gets -- I have hear many many systems that based on price dwarf mine that are totally outclassed by my system in most every sonice regard and certainly in every musical regard. I have heard systems that are more expensive and better in every sonic and musical regard as well -- I have heard systems that would have trouble musically against the Wharfedales for that matter - a speaker with technical weakspots but can generate emotion and be highly enjoyable.

There is a BIG difference between musicphile and audiophile and appears some in this thread have lost the music for the sonics (forrest for the trees). As much as I love to talk about systems and of some gear I like more than other gear, the music is what really counts and I can be happy listening to it on my Panasonic personal disc player with $4.00 headphones.

UHF said it best
"It remains a fact that most famous-name equipment is deliberately built to perform poorly. It is also true that some astonishingly expensive esoteric equipment just doesn't cut it. Fortunately, it also remains true even today that real music can be heard from a system that is, by hi-fi standards, inexpensive."

And
"Nor do I put sound ahead of music. It says a lot that I collect records by the great conductor, Arturo Toscanini, who made his last recording (in mono!) in 1954. Perfectly reproduced boring music is perfectly...boring."

"The problem
If all you needed to do was look up "hi-fi" in the Yellow Pages and go and get a system, there would be no need for this book. In fact there are tremendous barriers to high fidelity. Most of the merchants claiming to sell hi-fi wouldn't recognize it if the RCA dog bit them on the ankle. They have never heard it themselves, and they don't care whether you ever do or not. They will try to sell you boxes, some of them cheap. some of them expensive, bearing famous names. Most of it will not be hi-fi equipment.
To find true hi-fi, you will need to visit a different kind of store. You will need to let your ears guide you. You will need to beware of technical arguments which are not backed by demonstrations that seduce you with music. You will need to avoid being seduced by what equipment looks like, and concentrate on the only important aspect.
How it sounds."

[topspeed]

The notion that money is associated with reaching a cathartic experience with the music is as ludicrous as it gets -- I have hear many many systems that based on price dwarf mine that are totally outclassed by my system in most every sonice regard and certainly in every musical regard. I have heard systems that are more expensive and better in every sonic and musical regard as well -- I have heard systems that would have trouble musically against the Wharfedales for that matter - a speaker with technical weakspots but can generate emotion and be highly enjoyable.

There is a BIG difference between musicphile and audiophile and appears some in this thread have lost the music for the sonics (forrest for the trees). As much as I love to talk about systems and of some gear I like more than other gear, the music is what really counts and I can be happy listening to it on my Panasonic personal disc player with $4.00 headphones.I am in complete agreement with you!

Geez, did I forget to take my pills again?!?




WOMAN, where's my supersuit?!

[Florian]

Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking spending more than 2K on a pair of speakers. I've spent more than that a number of times! My current speakers (B&W 703's) listed for $3000. I paid $2700. It's just that imho, around 2K is the point beyond which twice the bucks may not get you twice the sound quality. Of course, it's impossible to really make a hard, fast rule. There are some giant killers under 1K/pr.

FWIW, I think you can "get the magic for 2K" (or less). Try a pair of B&W 705's for $1500, or a pair of 805's for 2K. They may not get you deep bass or high spl's, but they definitely will give you a generous helping of the magic. If by magic you mean what I mean: A holographic, 3D soundstage and disappearing speakers! What i mean by magic is explained by the word "real". On the Adiemus Songs of Sanctuary Trac2 the church bells sound 100% the same as if i stand in the sreet and the church bells ring. A violin or a brass instrument sounds real. The size, decay of notes and the downward dynamic range is exeptional. Anybody is welcome to my home and listen to the Apogee's. Some speakers are tested by technical facts, and some are tested by reality.

-Flo

PS: Would E-Stat say his speakers are only a bit better in some areas? Or am I saying that the big Aps are only a bit better. No!The B&W 700 series is very good for the money and is definetly nice sounding than many speakers. But speakers like the big Soundlabs or Apogee or Dunlavys just play in a different leauge. And not just a little better in some areas, no they are in a different leauge. Yes, they cost more...but they also deliver more.

[Florian]

There is a BIG difference between musicphile and audiophile and appears some in this thread have lost the music for the sonics (forrest for the trees). As much as I love to talk about systems and of some gear I like more than other gear, the music is what really counts and I can be happy listening to it on my Panasonic personal disc player with $4.00 headphones.

I have no problems listening to my old Maggie .5's with CA equipment either. But this is totaly besids the point. The Audiophile and Musicphiles quest (at least mine) is to get as close to reality as possible.

UHF said it best
"It remains a fact that most famous-name equipment is deliberately built to perform poorly. It is also true that some astonishingly expensive esoteric equipment just doesn't cut it. Fortunately, it also remains true even today that real music can be heard from a system that is, by hi-fi standards, inexpensive."

This includes AudioNote. AudioNote has one of the absolutly highest prices you can get. Also they have the least materials in their system. Sound quality aside-

-Flo

[Peter Duminy]

This includes AudioNote. AudioNote has one of the absolutly highest prices you can get. Also they have the least materials in their system. Sound quality aside-

-Flo
To be fair to Audio Note though, it is not the quantity of the materials used, but more the quality. My understanding is that their Quality Control and Rejection Ratio for drivers and crossover components is high, as their tolerances are extremely tight. Q.C. testing takes time, and therefore raises costs.

[Florian]

To be fair to Audio Note though, it is not the quantity of the materials used, but more the quality. My understanding is that their Quality Control and Rejection Ratio for drivers and crossover components is high, as their tolerances are extremely tight. Q.C. testing takes time, and therefore raises costs.
'Well so does VMPS. All crossovers are handbuild by Brian Cheney and the driver selection is very strict also. Everything is handbuild too. They have been in buisines for over 20 and won the CES several times. Still they are fairly priced. 'The RM30 comes in at 3500$ + shipping. The original Apogee ribbons where all handcut, the magnetic structure was hand laid. So thats no excuse for AN high prices. But if the speaker is good, people will pay the price for it.

-Flo

[RGA]

Florian

Very few Audio Note speakers are "highly" priced and the tight tolerances are there with the lower end models. They hand tune and measure every single speaker that leaves the shop -- so if your kid or cat ruins a woofer they can go into their file and get you an exact match of the driver or as close as is possible...becuase they get the drivers from SEAS they have to test every single driver they get. Yes they have extremely expensive gear as well but they are often one-off hand built units -- the Gaku On mono block take over 1000 hours or 6 months to build for the pair. The silver rolled parts in the AN E Sogon run nearly $40,000.00 just for the parts. One can argue that this is just an extreme vision of the design and you won;t get an argument from me -- but they are not really meant to be sold but rather "done" for the owner's sake for himself -- and if you want want they'll make it but you're going to pay through the nose for it. And even at $125k that is only about 3 times cost compared to some makers at 10 or more times cost.

My speakers are $3,575.00US list so I'm not sure I get the high price part if VMPS is $3,500.00 then they should also be putting "time" into them. Some big companies don't want high rejection rates because that adds expense and they sure as hell don;twant to waste any sort of time checking every speaker that rolls off the line -- this raises costs and reduces profits...part of the reason Paper drivers are not as used -- though Dunlavey used them I'm pretty sure. If Lynn Olson is correct part of the reason for Kevlar and polyprolene is not for sonic advantages because I don't see that or hear it but it's a far easier material to implement and there is more Consistency across speakers -- so if you get a 705 in Baltimore or Poland it will be pretty much the same - with AN the drivers unchecked and not tuned will yield results that the guy in Poland and the guy in baltimore might have a different sounding speaker!! And that would not be ideal obviously.

The other issue is paper is not as forgiving to climates. Kevlar and plastic have no problems and when you are trying to gain market share having a B&W need re-foaming in five years may get you a LOT of complaints -- complaints can turn into less sales, less sales = less marketshare. Audio Note is never going to care about that because they're never going to worry B&W sales staff. In some climates the foam will need to be replaced in as little as 5 years -- People buying them mostly understand this and accept it as a 'tune-up" deal.

As for simplicity it is not surprising that Peter's(Qvortrup) favorite speaker is a single driver Lowther PM4 and a speaker from Siemens Klangfilm designs as the best but they require a mansion to run properly.

The idea of attemting to build a system with as little error correction as possible (because you they are trying to build a system which doesn't create the errors in the first place) is a seemingly logical goal to strive for. Why add a third driver a fourth driver another crossover "correction switch" with each one when most of these still produce less bass? The DACs are well known for this as it is, and the SET / SEP is the simplist amplifier design and the most linear.

Granted there are many arguments against all of this -- in fact most arguments against this approach and the people at B&W are probably the ones nearly at a polar opposite viewpoint -- or perhaps just a polar opposite "marketing" viewpoint. Just because one works at Ford doesn't mean they would not rather own a Ferrari.

Lastly with costs -- when something is not in high supply but needed(demand) prices go up. there are tubes today that cost tons of money today that cost practically nothing in the 1960. And this goes for tweeters woofers ribbons or whatever else. The fact that one tweeter is $20.00 and one is $200.00 doesn;t make a whole pile of difference if at the end of it the $20.00 tweeter near perflectly matches the woofer doesn;t sound bright or harsh but smooth and engaging -- Legacy uses some fo the best drivers but I wonder when listening to them if they really know how to design speakers or just putting a lot of pricey stuff in their box so they can say look we use the best scanspeak this or the best woofer that and the best crossover.

The New York Yankees have done that 5 years in a row and have not won the world series either. :D

Lastly, VMPS looks to be a good speaker and one i will want to audition at CES in Vegas -- I would nto put any sock into best sound -- what dioes that mean? no one person can hear EVERY single system that was brought to the show -- and that IS what is required for any sort of credibility. Lots of stuff wins lots of awards -- So did the Bose 305 in Europe back in 1996 -- so it doesn;t mean much -- also looking at the winner class A stereophile stuff I wonder -- and hey Stereophile had ZERO Magnepan in their list so does that mean now Magnepan is junk -- I don't think so Tim.

[Florian]

Well i was never saying otherwise. If you could own the flagship AN, would you buy it?
Or is the flagship only slightly better than your model? The point i am trying to make is that in general more money gives you more sound. Could i listen to a Maggie 1.6 and be happy? Yes, but if i could i would have bough the 20.1...well not anymore but you get the picture.

-Flo

[RGA]

Well yes if I won the lotto then I would certainly buy a higher end model of AN gear and if Magnepan did it for me then I would go from the 1.6 to the 20.1. So I think people here will agree with you in terms of a one company moving up the line OFTEN gets you more speaker for your money.

Where you may run into some argument is when you go ACROSS companies. I would buy the $14,000 N801 over the $300.00 B&W DM 302 or the $2500 CDM 7NT. So if your world was B&W then you are getting more speaker for more money.

However, going across companies I would even if price were identical buy the AN J/Spe over the N801 because to my ear it sounds a LOT better...so this is a $14k to $3,500 example where paying more dioesn't get more at least to me (but I'm not alone). It isn;t really a better or worse issue really but one of the KIND of sound.

I know people who say they would buy an MMG over any boxed speaker three times the price -- well this isn;t much different. They are arguing that one could pay way more and get less. I was impressed with the 1.6 but I've heard cheaper speakers that I might like better and I've heard speaker at a LOT more that I don't like.

That is the point UHF was making -- some EXTREMELY priced esoteric gear doesn't cut it to them. Indeed, some people would rather listen to a $3-5K SET amp over ANYTHING else at ANY price. I have heard recently a set-up that was going for more than $65,000.00 that frankly I would not take over what I had at the time for under $6k.

[Florian]

Well i think that now we are getting somewhere. I do agree with you, but want to ask one more question. Do you think that its wrong to asume that a system costing 10 times more is not better just because you have heard a model from that company that you didnt like?

-Flo

[RGA]

It depends on the sound - for instance the Paradigm Studio 20 and 100 sound very much alike -- the latter has a thicker bassier sound but there is certainly a striking hous sound there.

I don't think it would be fair to assume that because you hear the 20 that you will KNOW how the S8 sounds. I also don't think it would be fair to judge Audio Note on a lower model (though it's fair to judge THAT speaker against its competitors at around that price. But the AX Two sounds very little like the E.

There are many speakers we don;t have access to -- so in lieu of that I go by people's ears I trust until such time as I can hear it myself. My dealer doesn't like one of the Wharfedale speakers he carries but I do.

I think it's often best to hear the best example of what a company has on tap -- that is not always the biggest or most expensive model in their line-up though..

[drseid]

Legacy uses some fo the best drivers but I wonder when listening to them if they really know how to design speakers or just putting a lot of pricey stuff in their box so they can say look we use the best scanspeak this or the best woofer that and the best crossover.


Actually RGA, I would have just stopped at "Legacy uses some of the best drivers." :-)

The Whispers are one of the best speaker models ever designed to my ears (and many of the other Legacy designs are no slouches either for that matter like the Signature IIIs). Yes, they use great expensive drivers by Eton, but the design is just as sound. I don't think Bill Dudleston has anything to worry about. I'll put the Whispers up against almost anything in their price class... I am not saying they are "the best," but they will hold their own quite nicely.

Now the VMPS RM40s (while not to my personal taste when I heard them earlier this year) are a good example of speakers that objectively have the goods at even a lower price point to challenge the Whispers.

---Dave

[RGA]

I only heard Legacy once and never caught the model name -- the dealer soon after got rid of them and nobody since then has picked them up -- so I'm willing to say it may have been a bad set-up so I should not have lumped them in -- it was more about an AA posting that picked the design apart - but hey they pick aprat everything so we'll see.

[drseid]

I only heard Legacy once and never caught the model name -- the dealer soon after got rid of them and nobody since then has picked them up -- so I'm willing to say it may have been a bad set-up so I should not have lumped them in -- it was more about an AA posting that picked the design apart - but hey they pick aprat everything so we'll see.
Yes, there is a specific member there at AA(I know his moniker, but will withold it as I am not trying to start something up here) that has a long-time grudge against Legacy and tries to post negatives on most of their speakers whenever a Legacy post pops up...

It dates back to my old posting days here about 7-8 years ago (under a different moniker) when a guy by the name of CE (I am sure many still remember *him*) drove most regulars away (myself included) with his inane pro-Legacy Focus posts. Now, as a result there is an element of "payback" from this other individual who is equally bad. Really too bad, as the truth lies somewhere in between, but people can easily get burnt out with all the Legacy battles between the two.

---Dave

[RGA]

Well that explains something then...I can somewhat sympathize with that being in some similar posts -- just change the company :D

[thepogue]

He used to make me lol...he was a peice of work!!...the Legecy...Phillips king...lol...wow..has it been 6 or 7 years...whew...


It was a wild place...don't really miss ALL of it...but it was WILD>..lol

Pogue


Yes, there is a specific member there at AA(I know his moniker, but will withold it as I am not trying to start something up here) that has a long-time grudge against Legacy and tries to post negatives on most of their speakers whenever a Legacy post pops up...

It dates back to my old posting days here about 7-8 years ago (under a different moniker) when a guy by the name of CE (I am sure many still remember *him*) drove most regulars away (myself included) with his inane pro-Legacy Focus posts. Now, as a result there is an element of "payback" from this other individual who is equally bad. Really too bad, as the truth lies somewhere in between, but people can easily get burnt out with all the Legacy battles between the two.

---Dave

[drseid]

He used to make me lol...he was a peice of work!!...the Legecy...Phillips king...lol...wow..has it been 6 or 7 years...whew...


It was a wild place...don't really miss ALL of it...but it was WILD>..lol

Pogue

Oh yes, Phillips... How could I have forgotten *that* one. :-)

Wild is a good description... ;-)

---Dave

[thepogue]

the wilddddd west...in our case...east...BTW we do need to hook-up and do some listening together!! soon I hope!! Peace, Pogue

[drseid]

the wilddddd west...in our case...east...BTW we do need to hook-up and do some listening together!! soon I hope!! Peace, Pogue
Yep... I look forward to it. Just PM me whenever you are ready, and we can work out all the details. :-)

---Dave