downsizing my speakers is better

[lomarica]

I recently downsized my Paradigm studio monitors, which were the top of the line large floor standing speaker circa 1994, to the Paradigm Studio 20 bookshelf speaker.

The main reason for this was I wanted to get my 60in TV speakers and components built into an entertainment center and this would not work with the large floor standing speakers.

I was concerned that "downgrading" to bookshelve speakers would degrade the sonic quality but I was mistaken, In fact my system sounds much better now with the smaller speakers. I attribute this to the quality of the Studio 20's, they sound great. The imaging is fantastic and they have a "high end" sound and also they sound great at low volume, which my large speakers never did. You can read more on my speaker review.

anyone wanting to do the same, get rid of the large speakers you bought before the kid arrived do not worry, just get a good quality bookshelf and you will be happy.

[Seanc0500]

anyone wanting to do the same, get rid of the large speakers you bought before the kid arrived do not worry, just get a good quality bookshelf and you will be happy.


I am in the same boat. I had a small tv cart for my tv and components, and
my mains (optimus lx8) were on stands on either side.

As I baby-proofing measure, we got an entertainment center to contain
everything, however the designated speaker cabinet/shelf will not
hold the lx8s, which is ok, as I want to replace them anyway.

So now, I'm looking for a good 'bookshelf' speaker for mains.
I need to replace my crappy Celestion Centre 2 with something, too.

[abstracta]

anyone wanting to do the same, get rid of the large speakers you bought before the kid arrived do not worry, just get a good quality bookshelf and you will be happy.

BS. I'd rather put floor standing speakers up on something and secure the speaker grills so a two year old can't pull them off vs *downgrade* to a mini-speaker.<P>The studio 20's are nice speakers, but Paradigm is in the same mid-fi class with JBL and a few in others in that the bigger the speaker they build, the worse it seems to sound. It's interesting that several of my friends have gone through the same speaker cycle and convinced themselves that a book shelf or sat was just as good as their older floor standers. As soon as the baby learned to leave the hi-fi stuff alone, they suddenly felt this urge to go back to their old 3-way floor standers and take a stand with their significant other. Fortunatley my fiance likes big speakers.

Like I said, I won't knock the 20's, but small speakers have small sound - period.

[Seanc0500]

BS. I'd rather put floor standing speakers up on something and secure the speaker grills so a two year old can't pull them off vs *downgrade* to a mini-speaker.<P>The studio 20's are nice speakers, but Paradigm is in the same mid-fi class with JBL and a few in others in that the bigger the speaker they build, the worse it seems to sound. It's interesting that several of my friends have gone through the same speaker cycle and convinced themselves that a book shelf or sat was just as good as their older floor standers. As soon as the baby learned to leave the hi-fi stuff alone, they suddenly felt this urge to go back to their old 3-way floor standers and take a stand with their significant other. Fortunatley my fiance likes big speakers.

Like I said, I won't knock the 20's, but small speakers have small sound - period.

BS. Since you don't have a toddler running around, how can you know
what you're talking about???
Put floor standing speakers UP on something??? Aren't they supposed to
be 'floor standing'???
Just because a speaker is BIG, doesn't mean it has GOOD sound.
It may have BIG sound, but who cares???

[Buzz Roll]

Wow, I just realized another reason to try Ohm MicroWalsh Talls. Just take off the grille/bonnet on the top and you're baby proof. The canister-shaped grille that houses the drivers is very sturdy, so the drivers aren't exposed!

Anyway, the best part is that with the Ohms you're getting the imaging/soundstaging abilities of a mini-monitor, and bass/lower mids of a (high quality) floorstander.

BTW I agree about the Pardigms only being mid-fi. The 20 is the best speaker of the Studio series. Spend any more money, especially for a floorstander, and it's time to try another brand.

[shokhead]

BS. Since you don't have a toddler running around, how can you know
what you're talking about???
Put floor standing speakers UP on something??? Aren't they supposed to
be 'floor standing'???
Just because a speaker is BIG, doesn't mean it has GOOD sound.
It may have BIG sound, but who cares???

My B&W 603's are on stands. They are floor standers.

[kexodusc]

BS. I'd rather put floor standing speakers up on something and secure the speaker grills so a two year old can't pull them off vs *downgrade* to a mini-speaker.<P>The studio 20's are nice speakers, but Paradigm is in the same mid-fi class with JBL and a few in others in that the bigger the speaker they build, the worse it seems to sound. It's interesting that several of my friends have gone through the same speaker cycle and convinced themselves that a book shelf or sat was just as good as their older floor standers. As soon as the baby learned to leave the hi-fi stuff alone, they suddenly felt this urge to go back to their old 3-way floor standers and take a stand with their significant other. Fortunatley my fiance likes big speakers.

Like I said, I won't knock the 20's, but small speakers have small sound - period.

Any speaker designer will tell you that there advantages/disadvantages to the floorstander/standmount decision. In many cases a bookshelf will sound better. Period. In others it won't. You add a few bottom Hz in a larger cabinet. But that's it. It doesn't change imaging or soundstage, and in many cases the maximum output is barely noticeable. Before you make irresponsible and factually wrong statements to members on this board you should consider truth over your biased personal opinions which appear to be based on anything but facts. Tiny home theater satellites are one thing, but a good bookshelf size speaker can do the trick easily.
Go listen to Totem's Mani-2 compared to the B&W 703's. Not even close. The Mani whoops it in every aspect and is less than 1/2 the size.
Size has absolutely nothing to do with sound.

Funny, how you'd suggest a speaker with the same drivers and crossover as a larger volumed cabinet (which is usually ALL that changes) somehow makes the speaker better? Deeper bass maybe, but everything else should be identical. I'd almost always take a good standmount than larger floorstander at the same price. Most of the musical information exists above 35Hz well within a good bookshelf's range...below that you're paying double for what 6 unmusical notes? Big deal. I'd take a better midrange and high end anyday.

As for Paradigm sounding mid-fi - so what? So do alot of speaker brands, B&W sells a ton of mid-fi stuff. Listen to the 700 series, no better than Paradigm's Studio line, yet they're pretty popular too. Mid-fi is all some people want or can afford. Nothing wrong with that.

[Wireworm5]

If Paradigms are mid-fi I can't imagine how much better hi-fi would sound. In my system I think I could improve slightly on my rear speakers with a better amp. Other than that I doubt very much I could improve on the sound with any upgrade and be able to tell the difference. I think I have reached the point of diminishing returns. Of coarse I've said this before but this time I mean it.

[jasmit]

And just what is "small sound?" Is that a technical audio term? Is the theory small speaker = small sound? And big speakers = big sound? Poppycock!

I agree with kexodusc and seanc0500. Contrary to the suggestion made by abstracta, there is no absolute correlation between speaker size and sound quality. Or between speaker size and intelligible, undistorted loudness. With my Studio 20's vs. Studio 60's or 100's, I am giving up only the lowest notes of only a few instruments (see this (http://psbspeakers.com/FrequenciesOfMusic.html)). That's where a sub complements the mains. And they reproduce sound as loud as I can stand it. Moreover, when speaker shopping, I found that until you got up into the multi-thousand dollar floorstander range, most bookshelf speakers had superior clarity and better imaging.

Whether or not Paradigm's Reference series are "mid-fi," I think it's all relative and personal. I auditioned a lot of speakers while shopping for mains, including speakers costing thousands more than the 20's. In my experience and to my ears, I found that there is a point of diminishing returns. Sure, there were "hi-fi" speakers that sounded marginally better than the 20's but in almost every case, they were at least twice as expensive. I guess if money was no object, I would've purchased a pair of B&W 800 series speakers or even something more expensive. But to me, and I suspect most on this board, money is important and we all want to get the best sound that our individual audio dollars can buy. For me that was Paradigm Reference Studio 20's. For many others, it is also a bookshelf speaker.

[Seanc0500]

And just what is "small sound?" Is that a technical audio term? Is the theory small speaker = small sound? And big speakers = big sound? Poppycock!
.

I think what I was trying to say was that big speakers tend to sound louder.
But not necessarily better???
I don't know. I was just trying to make the point that I don't think bigger
is necessarily better, especially, as was pointed out, if a quality bookshelf
is accompanied by a quality sub with a seamless crossover.

[shokhead]

I think what I was trying to say was that big speakers tend to sound louder.
But not necessarily better???
I don't know. I was just trying to make the point that I don't think bigger
is necessarily better, especially, as was pointed out, if a quality bookshelf
is accompanied by a quality sub with a seamless crossover.

If i was buying new speakers,i'd go for some real nice bookshelfs,4 of them on some nice stands.

[corwin99]

Why bookshelves/Standmounts? Why not?

I personally prefer the bass that a larger floorstander can provide, but I also know that excellent sound can be provided by a smaller bookshelf speaker, otherwise I wouldn't have bought those AN/K Spe's this weekend. I actually own more standmount speakers than I do floorstanders, but in my larger room, the Extended bass from a larger speaker loads the room better, and gives the perception of "bigger" sound... it certainly sounds more impressive. Smaller speakers may sound "smaller" simply because they don't have the low end punch, but soundstage can be just as large and enveloping in my experience.

[shokhead]

Why bookshelves/Standmounts? Why not?

I personally prefer the bass that a larger floorstander can provide, but I also know that excellent sound can be provided by a smaller bookshelf speaker, otherwise I wouldn't have bought those AN/K Spe's this weekend. I actually own more standmount speakers than I do floorstanders, but in my larger room, the Extended bass from a larger speaker loads the room better, and gives the perception of "bigger" sound... it certainly sounds more impressive. Smaller speakers may sound "smaller" simply because they don't have the low end punch, but soundstage can be just as large and enveloping in my experience.
They dont need to worry about low end,thats for my sub. They will work on hights and mids and you can get bookshelfs that will do 35Hz just fine.

[corwin99]

They dont need to worry about low end,thats for my sub. They will work on hights and mids and you can get bookshelfs that will do 35Hz just fine.

I do realize that there are many bookshelves that will do 35Hz just fine... I've heard many of them. Most of them sound great without a sub but I'm sure you will save the low end for you sub.

[jasmit]

I think what I was trying to say was that big speakers tend to sound louder.
But not necessarily better???
I don't know. I was just trying to make the point that I don't think bigger
is necessarily better, especially, as was pointed out, if a quality bookshelf
is accompanied by a quality sub with a seamless crossover.

Sean - your post was clear; I was replying to abstracta's post that said, ". . . but small speakers have small sound - period."

[PAT.P]

The studio 20's are nice speakers, but Paradigm is in the same mid-fi class with JBL and a few in others in that the bigger the speaker they build, the worse it seems to sound. It's interesting that several of my friends have gone through the same speaker cycle and convinced themselves that a book shelf or sat was just as good as their older floor standers. As soon as the baby learned to leave the hi-fi stuff alone, they suddenly felt this urge to go back to their old 3-way floor standers and take a stand with their significant other. Fortunatley my fiance likes big speakers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dont know why your comparing Paradigm in the same class of Jbl ! Paradigm is in the same league with Energy .Paradigm have great reviews and also make great subwoofer.I have Paradigm ,Energy, Axiom,Dalhquist (all of these are Canadian made) Also have some Jbl and wont compare them to my Canadian speaker.Please list your speaker and I like to know what you own.As for the bookshelf there lots of great bookshelf speaker ,as long that nothing vibrates beside them and are no rear ported no problem.Pat.P

[bikeman]

.As for the bookshelf there lots of great bookshelf speaker ,as long that nothing vibrates beside them and are no rear ported no problem.Pat.P

What problem do yo see with a rear port?

David

[corwin99]

For the sake of keeping this thread accurate, I'll mention that JBL makes some extremely nice high-end speakers that you are not likely to see in the big box locations that would put entry level paradigms to shame and sound as good as if not better than Paradigm Signature stuff.

[PAT.P]

For the sake of keeping this thread accurate, I'll mention that JBL makes some extremely nice high-end speakers that you are not likely to see in the big box locations that would put entry level paradigms to shame and sound as good as if not better than Paradigm Signature stuff.
When I said I would not compare Paradigm to the JBL in the same league I meant with the JBL at Future SHOP .The JBL PRO that they use at concert and in cinema is in a league of their own these are hard to beat to fill a room the size of a gym or concert hall .These would cost as much as my two houses and the amp for them also would cost a pretty $$ .Pat.P

[PAT.P]

What problem do yo see with a rear port?

David
The problem I see with a rear port speaker in a inclosed wall unit (back inclosed ) is that the rear ported need to circulate the air in back , sound might vibrate if its inclosed .Pat.P

[corwin99]

When I said I would not compare Paradigm to the JBL in the same league I meant with the JBL at Future SHOP .The JBL PRO that they use at concert and in cinema is in a league of their own these are hard to beat to fill a room the size of a gym or concert hall .These would cost as much as my two houses and the amp for them also would cost a pretty $$ .Pat.P

I wasn't talking about the JBL Pro stuff either, but i wasn't talking about the JBL at futureshop. If you go to their site you will see 2 lines that I have heard.. the K2 and the TiK, both are excellent and meant for HOME USE. They are not the size of a Gym or a Concert Hall... and do not cost as much as your two houses either (unless your houses truly are POS).

My problem is that classifying JBL as being "below" paradigm in some way simply because a couple of their speakers at Futureshop are nothing special is misleading, and incorrect.

[kexodusc]

The problem I see with a rear port speaker in a inclosed wall unit (back inclosed ) is that the rear ported need to circulate the air in back , sound might vibrate if its inclosed .Pat.P

Say whaaaa???

I think you're referring to rear-ported speakers with the port hole against a back wall? Yeah, that would be problematic. But I would point out that a front ported speaker against a back wall is not going to sound much better in most cases - or any box speaker for that matter not specifically designed for wall mounting.

[corwin99]

Yep... any time you place any speaker really close to a back wall you will get funky reflections regardless of where the port is.. even if its not that close to the back wall you will certainly get some loss of focus. One of the single best upgrades I made to my system was installing curtains behind the speakers, and my speakers are quite a bit out from the rear wall. The rear port does need breathing room more so than sealed or front ported designs... but some people actually like that "boom" that happens when placing rear ported speakers against the wall...

[bikeman]

Yep... any time you place any speaker really close to a back wall you will get funky reflections regardless of where the port is.. even if its not that close to the back wall you will certainly get some loss of focus. One of the single best upgrades I made to my system was installing curtains behind the speakers, and my speakers are quite a bit out from the rear wall. The rear port does need breathing room more so than sealed or front ported designs... but some people actually like that "boom" that happens when placing rear ported speakers against the wall...

There are some variables with rear porting. There's no simplistic formula for how much room a given speaker needs. Call the company and they should have all the info you need. As mentioned earlier, putting a box speaker in an enclosed unit is generally a bad idea regardless of port. I've always asked the designer (or at least someone familiar with the aims of the designer) if how I'm setting up my speakers is acceptable. That was one of the many pluses of going with my current speakers. I got to speak directly with the owner/designer.

David

[PAT.P]

I wasn't talking about the JBL Pro stuff either, but i wasn't talking about the JBL at futureshop. If you go to their site you will see 2 lines that I have heard.. the K2 and the TiK, both are excellent and meant for HOME USE. They are not the size of a Gym or a Concert Hall... and do not cost as much as your two houses either (unless your houses truly are POS).

My problem is that classifying JBL as being "below" paradigm in some way simply because a couple of their speakers at Futureshop are nothing special is misleading, and incorrect.
Ok I have to try these out and see for myself ,and no my two or not POS ,one a townhouse that I rent to my daugther and the other is a 45 feet 2 storey house near the water in Ottawa ,ont ( boyh double in value in 5 year) Pat.P :D

[corwin99]

Ok I have to try these out and see for myself ,and no my two or not POS ,one a townhouse that I rent to my daugther and the other is a 45 feet 2 storey house near the water in Ottawa ,ont ( boyh double in value in 5 year) Pat.P :D

If you can, try and get a listen to the K2.. I heard one (not sure of the model#) that one really knocked my socks off when i heard it in HK. The TiK's which i also heard there were not nearly as impressive, but still very good speakers.

[gonefishin]

Hi lomarica,


While I wouldn't say that downsizing your speakers will always yield an improvement in sound quality. In certain situations...it may.


Aside from that...congrats on the improvement in your sound system :D


I'm not sure what your room is like...or if you have the ability to add any room treatments (wife willing :) ). But adding some room treatments can give nice results in (further) cleaning up the sound and bringing new life into your music.

In the future...when you feel like you may want to upgrade one of your components...try to visit the issue of room treatments and see if this is a possibility for you. You may just like the results ;)

take care...and congrats

dan

[Woochifer]

Congrats on getting the 20s, those are excellent speakers for the money, and the improvements that you observed don't surprise me. But, I would refrain from generalizing your example to therefore mean that standmounts are inherently superior, because as with any generalization as broad as this one, there are exceptions galore.

My general experience has been that floorstanders will give you better bass extension. That just stands to reason that floorstanders have larger interior volumes and can therefore lower the tuned port frequency without creating major alterations to the rest of the frequency range. However, the tricky part is designing a cabinet that large that can also minimize resonance and other detrimental cabinet interactions. This is why so many standmounts can deliver superior soundstage and imaging resolution compared to the floormounted versions.

In general, I've found that most sub-$1,000 floorstanding speakers have significant problems with cabinet resonance and other issues. If the bass extension means a lot, then those compromises might be worthwhile to gain the extra bass. But, if the bass extension is not a paramount concern, then it might not be worthwhile to go to floorstanders.

[pelly3s]

I just have to put my two cents in on this... I love my big ugly 2ways with a 15 but hey thats just me but I honestly have heard bookshelves with the same low end. There are pros and cons to each system. On the subject of JBL's (my favorite toys every come from them) the drivers in the K2's are off shoots of pro drivers, and a pair lists for the cost of the average family car (high $20k range) the 435be is a great horn driver and the only difference between that and the pro version of the driver is a bigger back box. If you look at all the large format studio monitors they made too those were all pro drivers and sounded excellent in a home situation. Oh and gonefishin I still want you speakers lol they would sound great with the crown k2's

[gonefishin]

Oh and gonefishin I still want you speakers lol they would sound great with the crown k2's

hehe...any time you want to give'em a try ;)


actually...I can't wait to get my speakers back up and running. I've got some new amplifiers to go to a tri-amped/DEQX-p (http://www.deqx.com/press-events/news-events.html) system getting rid of the crossovers. I've tried a couple varying crossovers with my speakers...including some actives. But I kept going back to the Edgar recommended 1st/1st/2nd. The DEQX does a bit more than just establishing crosover freq...so I'm hoping for some good results. Only time will tell. *I've got my fingers crossed*

dan

[pelly3s]

I've done a lot with digital system controllers and i can tell you that you will have fun with it. i love the DBX driveracks personally. I am hoping to get my hands on some of the 435be's and use them with some Smith horns and a TAD 15" or the JBL 1500AL

[lomarica]

wow my first post that actaully got some discussion. I would say one reason my bookshelf speakers do sound better than my floorstanding is because they are further away from each other. My couch is 17 feet from the speakers so that is long ways and having the speaker further apart helped. I have a sub so any lack of bass in my bookshelf speakers is not an issue for me.

My main point in my original post was to get people to think that downsizing is ok and you may be happier with the results. My main purpose in downsizing my speakers was to get new stereo furniture and did not have anything to do with my son. I think some people misunderstood this point.

thanks for the discussion



While I wouldn't say that downsizing your speakers will always yield an improvement in sound quality. In certain situations...it may.


Aside from that...congrats on the improvement in your sound system :D


I'm not sure what your room is like...or if you have the ability to add any room treatments (wife willing :) ). But adding some room treatments can give nice results in (further) cleaning up the sound and bringing new life into your music.

In the future...when you feel like you may want to upgrade one of your components...try to visit the issue of room treatments and see if this is a possibility for you. You may just like the results ;)

take care...and congrats

dan[/QUOTE]

[jclin4]

Woochifer said:


many standmounts can deliver superior soundstage and imaging resolution compared to the floormounted versions.

As I have been following this thread, I was in the process of puttting together the BR-1 monitors from Parts Express (my first DIY project!) for a secondary system, and wondering how would they compare to my Polk RT600i's?

Now that I've finished the BR-1's and had a brief listen, I can confirm many of the comments made here ring true, even in the budget world that I inhabit. Compared to the floorstanding speakers, the BR-1's provide much better detail and clarity. For a smaller speaker, I'm quite surprised in their ability to place instruments and voices in particular parts of the room, if in a somewhat restrained manner.

Certainly, the Polks have deeper bass and a more "physical" presence, than the smaller speakers. Now I'm presented with a new cross-roads: Do I keep the BR-1's with my main system and perhaps add a subwoofer and then move the Polks to the secondary system? I'll have the pleasure of more listening before I decide.

[kexodusc]

JClin4: Congrats on being another satisfied builder of the BR-1's. Great to hear the comparison...they're only weakness is the low sensitivity, but yeah, I haven't heard many $350-$450 speakers that can touch them from about 60 Hz on up. At $140 they're just incredible.

There's a great crossover tweak available to take them to a slightly higher level too...look up the Dayton II project by Wayne Jaeschke.

I say sell the Polks and build a subwoofer so you can have the best of everything...I've got a few ideas for ya too, depending on your budget!!!

[thepogue]

BS. The studio 20's are nice speakers (#), but Paradigm is in the same mid-fi class with JBL and a few in others in that the bigger the speaker they build, the worse it seems to sound.
Listen to the 100's for awhile (more than 3 minutes) then listen to the 20's 40's 60's and 80's...all the models have strenghts...but the line clearly gets stronger save the 80's which could "pump" but had a bit of a cross over gap...

and I would content that history shows that JBL made (back in the day) some very strong contenders and few where small..

Peace, Pogue