The NEW Adire Rava MKII subwoofer ...

[Woochifer]

After months of speculation, Adire has finally updated their website with all of the specs on their new products. As part of their complete product line revamp, they have introduced a brand new Mark II version of their well regarded Rava subwoofer. In going over what they posted on their website, the new model is a huge change from before.

The box remains the same, but the driver is now a 12" XBL^2 motor design and the amp is a 300W Class D design. The amp in particular now also comes with two parametric EQ channels, which IMO is a huge benefit to any setup.

The old Rava had a frequency response down to 27 Hz (in my room, it goes down to 25 Hz, with -3 db at 22 Hz and -7 db at 20 Hz), while the Rava II has a frequency response spec going down to 20 Hz. If this is a true spec, then we're talking about a monster a sub here. The polite reputation of the Rava might make for quite a rude awakening with this kind of extension!

Of course, with all of this good news, there has to be some bad right? Unfortunately, the bad news comes in the form of the price that Adire posted. Sit down because this ain't pretty ...

Adire's list price on the Rava II is $800! Yup, we're talking about a 100% price increase! I'm about to post onto Adire's forum to confirm this information, but that's a most unfortunate development if indeed true.

If the specs on the new Rava pan out, this looks like it will stand out just as distinctly as the original Rava did when it came out. When the original Rava came out, there were no other 12" sealed subs that I could find for under $800. Since then, a multitude of new sealed subs have been introduced, with similar specs to the Rava and priced around the $500 price point. The Rava II on paper looks like it will handily outperform those models, but unfortunately it will also carry a higher price tag. At $800, the Rava II is still a unique product in that it's a 12" sealed sub that specs down to 20 Hz. But, in this price range, the competition's also more formidable.

All in all, the Rava II looks like a winner, but with its gaudier price tag, it has moved into a different neighborhood and left its roots behind.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/Rava.htm

[drseid]

After months of speculation, Adire has finally updated their website with all of the specs on their new products. As part of their complete product line revamp, they have introduced a brand new Mark II version of their well regarded Rava subwoofer. In going over what they posted on their website, the new model is a huge change from before.

The box remains the same, but the driver is now a 12" XBL^2 motor design and the amp is a 300W Class D design. The amp in particular now also comes with two parametric EQ channels, which IMO is a huge benefit to any setup.

The old Rava had a frequency response down to 27 Hz (in my room, it goes down to 25 Hz, with -3 db at 22 Hz and -7 db at 20 Hz), while the Rava II has a frequency response spec going down to 20 Hz. If this is a true spec, then we're talking about a monster a sub here. The polite reputation of the Rava might make for quite a rude awakening with this kind of extension!

Of course, with all of this good news, there has to be some bad right? Unfortunately, the bad news comes in the form of the price that Adire posted. Sit down because this ain't pretty ...

Adire's list price on the Rava II is $800! Yup, we're talking about a 100% price increase! I'm about to post onto Adire's forum to confirm this information, but that's a most unfortunate development if indeed true.

If the specs on the new Rava pan out, this looks like it will stand out just as distinctly as the original Rava did when it came out. When the original Rava came out, there were no other 12" sealed subs that I could find for under $800. Since then, a multitude of new sealed subs have been introduced, with similar specs to the Rava and priced around the $500 price point. The Rava II on paper looks like it will handily outperform those models, but unfortunately it will also carry a higher price tag. At $800, the Rava II is still a unique product in that it's a 12" sealed sub that specs down to 20 Hz. But, in this price range, the competition's also more formidable.

All in all, the Rava II looks like a winner, but with its gaudier price tag, it has moved into a different neighborhood and left its roots behind.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/Rava.htm
That is really too bad... The Rava was one of those rare value finds that allowed a lot of audio enthusiasts on a tight budget (or ones that could spend more but said "why?") to get a real taste of what the much higher priced subs sounded like (without spending all those bucks).

While the specs look impressive, at $800 brands like ACI, Hsu and SVS are going to definitely merit consideration. Adire may have made a miscalculation here as to what their consumers really were looking for... I guess time will tell.

---Dave

[bikeman]

Thanks for the link. That's impressive for the size. I'm using two filters with my current set-up so two is the right number for me. Being a sealed sub will set it apart from the SVS and Hsu offerings. AV123 has a 12" sealed sub coming out shortly but at a higher price point.

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=8.1

That should be a fun comparison. It's a great time to be in the market.

David

[IRG]

After months of speculation, Adire has finally updated their website with all of the specs on their new products. As part of their complete product line revamp, they have introduced a brand new Mark II version of their well regarded Rava subwoofer. In going over what they posted on their website, the new model is a huge change from before.

The box remains the same, but the driver is now a 12" XBL^2 motor design and the amp is a 300W Class D design. The amp in particular now also comes with two parametric EQ channels, which IMO is a huge benefit to any setup.

The old Rava had a frequency response down to 27 Hz (in my room, it goes down to 25 Hz, with -3 db at 22 Hz and -7 db at 20 Hz), while the Rava II has a frequency response spec going down to 20 Hz. If this is a true spec, then we're talking about a monster a sub here. The polite reputation of the Rava might make for quite a rude awakening with this kind of extension!

Of course, with all of this good news, there has to be some bad right? Unfortunately, the bad news comes in the form of the price that Adire posted. Sit down because this ain't pretty ...

Adire's list price on the Rava II is $800! Yup, we're talking about a 100% price increase! I'm about to post onto Adire's forum to confirm this information, but that's a most unfortunate development if indeed true.

If the specs on the new Rava pan out, this looks like it will stand out just as distinctly as the original Rava did when it came out. When the original Rava came out, there were no other 12" sealed subs that I could find for under $800. Since then, a multitude of new sealed subs have been introduced, with similar specs to the Rava and priced around the $500 price point. The Rava II on paper looks like it will handily outperform those models, but unfortunately it will also carry a higher price tag. At $800, the Rava II is still a unique product in that it's a 12" sealed sub that specs down to 20 Hz. But, in this price range, the competition's also more formidable.

All in all, the Rava II looks like a winner, but with its gaudier price tag, it has moved into a different neighborhood and left its roots behind.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/Rava.htm

Hey Wooch,
Thanks for the info, as you know I have (or make it had) been lusting after the Adire. And when I was ready to buy one, they stopped making it, and now we know why. It sounds like overall, it is an improvement over the older model, but the bad news for me, (the new price) far outweighs the good news. Before, there just weren't any really good subs at the $400 mark that could compete. Now, SVS http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb10_isd.htm has their new $429 sub that IMO, at least on paper is probably better than the older Adire, or at least its equal, although it won't quite equal what the new model is - however for half the price, this is the new price leader for the performance, by far. Weird that Adire would relinquish this title, but hey, if they can sell half the number of subs as before, at twice the price, they will make more money overall (less labor needed). Seems like SVS and Hsu are trying harder to make good subs at the $400-500 range, while Adire is going for the upper high end market. There are a lot of good $800 subs out there, and considering Adire has no middle man (or maybe they do now), this looks like a business mistake to me. Time will tell, but I know, SVS will be getting my money soon, and not Adire. Thanks for the update though. I couldn't agree more with your assesment.

[kexodusc]

The DIY community is abuzz about this...most are a little miffed at the new price but that's to be expected. We're hearing that Dayton is also getting ready to release another line of newer woofers, my quess is the DVC line which was basically a rebadged Adire woofer. NHT and several others are working on new woofers as well.

I think this represents a good switch for Adire. They couldn't have been making much profit of the old Rava. Best to pick a niche market and excel at it I think than to try to be everything to everyone...they don't have the size or complemintary products to sustain that effort in an already saturated market. Yet.

The new 12" driver is supposedly double the price or more than the previous, some say as high as $400 or so, which is quite remarkable if true. The dual Parametric EQ is probably sufficient for most people and the slightly better amp altogether represents another $100 in value I would say (subjectively)...Clearly the Rava is aimed at a different market where less competition currently exits.
I suspect they will win back many old Rava customers looking to upgrade, as well as people looking at higher performance subs at affordable prices.

One thing that interests me is the Q alignment...Adire's new subs all seem to have relatively higher Vas and necessitate huge cabinets...18" cubed makes for big 12" subwoofer me thinks. My 15" Dayton woofer is in a 3.5 cubic ft sealed cabinet, about 21" squared, and it dominates my 20 X 24 room when you sit on the couch and your field of vision is forward.
The Rava is 2.6 litres Vb and a Q alignment of 0.6. This thing is gonna suck up the power, at the low frequencies which is probably why the bigger amp is used.
Haven't seen specs for efficiency yet, but it's probably the same or better. I just hope Adire hasn't increased the xmax of the drivers, but I fear with these parameters that xmax might have been the one area of compromise...lots of drivers seem to be falling victim to the "horsepower race" subs have witnessed recently.
I think this is gonna be one great subwoofer though.

I'd love to get my hands on one of them Tumult gems...sigh.

[IRG]

The DIY community is abuzz about this...most are a little miffed at the new price but that's to be expected. We're hearing that Dayton is also getting ready to release another line of newer woofers, my quess is the DVC line which was basically a rebadged Adire woofer. NHT and several others are working on new woofers as well.

I think this represents a good switch for Adire. They couldn't have been making much profit of the old Rava. Best to pick a niche market and excel at it I think than to try to be everything to everyone...they don't have the size or complemintary products to sustain that effort in an already saturated market. Yet.

The new 12" driver is supposedly double the price or more than the previous, some say as high as $400 or so, which is quite remarkable if true. The dual Parametric EQ is probably sufficient for most people and the slightly better amp altogether represents another $100 in value I would say (subjectively)...Clearly the Rava is aimed at a different market where less competition currently exits.
I suspect they will win back many old Rava customers looking to upgrade, as well as people looking at higher performance subs at affordable prices.

One thing that interests me is the Q alignment...Adire's new subs all seem to have relatively higher Vas and necessitate huge cabinets...18" cubed makes for big 12" subwoofer me thinks. My 15" Dayton woofer is in a 3.5 cubic ft sealed cabinet, about 21" squared, and it dominates my 20 X 24 room when you sit on the couch and your field of vision is forward.
The Rava is 2.6 litres Vb and a Q alignment of 0.6. This thing is gonna suck up the power, at the low frequencies which is probably why the bigger amp is used.
Haven't seen specs for efficiency yet, but it's probably the same or better. I just hope Adire hasn't increased the xmax of the drivers, but I fear with these parameters that xmax might have been the one area of compromise...lots of drivers seem to be falling victim to the "horsepower race" subs have witnessed recently.
I think this is gonna be one great subwoofer though.

I'd love to get my hands on one of them Tumult gems...sigh.

Kexo,
You might be right in that Adire was not making much profit with their previous version - although they are still around, so I think they were doing OK. Seems hard to imagine that they would spend $400 on a single driver and put it in a $800 sub. If so, they still won't be making much profit, after you factor in the amp, cabinet, labor etc.

I think they are making a mistake though, and here is why. Visually, this is the same sub, for now twice the price. Sure, it is better and the stuff inside may be worth twice the price. But I think they should have kept the Rava sub at $400 as is, make minor changes perhaps, and charge $425-500. Then take this Rava II sub, and give it a better looking cabinet (one does wonder if it needs to be bigger, but I will assume their engineers felt the current size was appropriate) and then charge the $800 or so for it. They need to have a good "entry" level sub around $400, as well as their $800 and up subs. This is exactly why SVS has come out with their $429 sub - so they offer a wider range of quality products, so that people like me will buy their sub $500 sub, love it, and in a few years upgrade to a $1k sub, etc. I would have bought the Adire at $400, but I am not going to at $800. For me, (and I have a smaller room) the difference in improvement is not worth twice the price. For others, I am sure it will be. It will be interesting to see what customers they win over, and which ones they will lose. My guess is they will lose more than they gain.

[kexodusc]

That is really too bad... The Rava was one of those rare value finds that allowed a lot of audio enthusiasts on a tight budget (or ones that could spend more but said "why?") to get a real taste of what the much higher priced subs sounded like (without spending all those bucks).

While the specs look impressive, at $800 brands like ACI, Hsu and SVS are going to definitely merit consideration. Adire may have made a miscalculation here as to what their consumers really were looking for... I guess time will tell.

---Dave

Just a quick look at these 3 companies competitive offerings at the $1000 price point and I don't think Adire has much to worry about at all. SVS and HSU concentrate on vented subs, however the ACI Titanic would be a very close competitor. But it's downfiring design, and lack of dual parametric EQ are two immediate shortcomings (albeit the downfiring aspect shouldn't matter too much below 60Hz).
I think the Titanic looks gorgeous though and might be reason enough for higher price...the devil is in the details though, I'd like to see some output specs...right now I don't see $250 in value more in the Titanic.

[kexodusc]

Kexo,
You might be right in that Adire was not making much profit with their previous version - although they are still around, so I think they were doing OK. Seems hard to imagine that they would spend $400 on a single driver and put it in a $800 sub. If so, they still won't be making much profit, after you factor in the amp, cabinet, labor etc.

I think they are making a mistake though, and here is why. Visually, this is the same sub, for now twice the price. Sure, it is better and the stuff inside may be worth twice the price. But I think they should have kept the Rava sub at $400 as is, make minor changes perhaps, and charge $425-500. Then take this Rava II sub, and give it a better looking cabinet (one does wonder if it needs to be bigger, but I will assume their engineers felt the current size was appropriate) and then charge the $800 or so for it. They need to have a good "entry" level sub around $400, as well as their $800 and up subs. This is exactly why SVS has come out with their $429 sub - so they offer a wider range of quality products, so that people like me will buy their sub $500 sub, love it, and in a few years upgrade to a $1k sub, etc. I would have bought the Adire at $400, but I am not going to at $800. For me, (and I have a smaller room) the difference in improvement is not worth twice the price. For others, I am sure it will be. It will be interesting to see what customers they win over, and which ones they will lose. My guess is they will lose more than they gain.

IRG -

Your points are quite valid...if you approach from the perspective that this subwoofer has "doubled in price". I don't think it's fair to say that. This is a completely brand new sub not carrying anything over from the original Rava, and hence hasn't doubled in price, not really.

I suspect the Woofer is a $200-$300 unit, the amp would be another $200, and the cabinets are less than $75 in materials and labour, finished. That's $575 tops in cost of materials I think assuming retail prices. That's up from $350 or so in the previous incarnation of the Rava...of course the costs to Adire are significantly lower, but you can see the trend here.
I suspect Adire just wanted to keep the "goodwill" and recognition that the name Rava has, rather than start a whole new name. Which makes sense

Given that Adire has introduced a completely new line fo 10, 12, and 15" Shiva drivers (what the old Rava used), I would suspect a "true replacement" to the original Rava to be coming shortly.
My guess is it'll be in the $450-$500 range, given the improvements in the driver.

IRG, if you really want a Rava, you can pretty much build one yourself quite easily. The Dayton DVC 12" woofer is extremely similar to the Shiva driver (basically rebadged), with a few minor differences. The jury is out as to which woofer is better, but most agree the differences are slim...same manufacturer, common materials, close specs. You could buy the woofer and plate amp for $250 plus shipping...then you'd just need a drill, some gasket tape, polyfill and a cabinet.
Not sure if you could build your own cabinet or not, but even having a local woodshop build one or getting Lowes to cut the exact sizes wouldn't cost $100...I think Lowes charges just a few dollars to cut a sheet of MDF to your sizes...you just glue/screw it together for under $60. That leaves $50 for finishing - buy a nice veneer, stain and bang - you have a pretty excellent sounding 12" sub.

Or, for less money buy the 15" Quatro woofer...it'll outperform both and is cheaper right now. The tradeoff is it's a even bigger in your room.

[IRG]

IRG -

Your points are quite valid...if you approach from the perspective that this subwoofer has "doubled in price". I don't think it's fair to say that. This is a completely brand new sub not carrying anything over from the original Rava, and hence hasn't doubled in price, not really.

I suspect the Woofer is a $200-$300 unit, the amp would be another $200, and the cabinets are less than $75 in materials and labour, finished. That's $575 tops in cost of materials I think assuming retail prices. That's up from $350 or so in the previous incarnation of the Rava...of course the costs to Adire are significantly lower, but you can see the trend here.
I suspect Adire just wanted to keep the "goodwill" and recognition that the name Rava has, rather than start a whole new name. Which makes sense

Given that Adire has introduced a completely new line fo 10, 12, and 15" Shiva drivers (what the old Rava used), I would suspect a "true replacement" to the original Rava to be coming shortly.
My guess is it'll be in the $450-$500 range, given the improvements in the driver.

IRG, if you really want a Rava, you can pretty much build one yourself quite easily. The Dayton DVC 12" woofer is extremely similar to the Shiva driver (basically rebadged), with a few minor differences. The jury is out as to which woofer is better, but most agree the differences are slim...same manufacturer, common materials, close specs. You could buy the woofer and plate amp for $250 plus shipping...then you'd just need a drill, some gasket tape, polyfill and a cabinet.
Not sure if you could build your own cabinet or not, but even having a local woodshop build one or getting Lowes to cut the exact sizes wouldn't cost $100...I think Lowes charges just a few dollars to cut a sheet of MDF to your sizes...you just glue/screw it together for under $60. That leaves $50 for finishing - buy a nice veneer, stain and bang - you have a pretty excellent sounding 12" sub.

Or, for less money buy the 15" Quatro woofer...it'll outperform both and is cheaper right now. The tradeoff is it's a even bigger in your room.

I have thought about the Parts Express sub kits (assuming these drivers are the same as what you are talking about). I could do their kits, but I don't think I want to attempt making the cabinet - not so handy or patient with this kind of thing. Maybe some day - I just have little time available for these type of projects, unfortunately. Baby #3 on the way!.

Anyway, I will respectfully disagree with you on some points. Maybe it is only semantics, but I see this sub as only half new. Yes, a new driver, and a larger amp/eq, but it is still the same cabinet, same dimensions, and same name. Plus I think we are only guessing on the prices, so who knows what it really costs. And I have no problem with them making more money - heck that is the whole point of having a business, but this sub which at least right now, is a direct replacement for the original Rava, is twice the price. I still say it should look a little different and have a different name, otherwise the direct comparison to the original is unavoidable. If your guess that a true replacement for the original Rava is coming in the $400-500 range is true, then that would be welcome news, and I hope and suspect that they will do this also. But by then, it may be too late for me, but considering how slow I am with this purchase, you never know.

[kexodusc]

Yeah, I agree, the cabinet could have had (should have had) a facelift. But keep in mind with subs, internal volume is extremely important and it's quite common see similar sizes...I suspect they kept the same cabinets to help keep costs lower than they othewise would have been, but I don't know for sure...

But of the 3 components in the sub, 2 of them have been changed significantly, and the most important component (woofer) completely. If you understand Thiel/Small parameters, you'll realize that the effect of the 3rd component (the cabinet) also changes when the woofer changes.
So it's pretty much a complete overhaul.

I do sympathize with people such as yourself with families, budgets and limited free time who are getting overlooked by Adire.

And I also agree, the name was kept for marketing reasons rather than continuity of a sub line.

You could look at the Parts Express 12" Titanic MKIII kit. It literally takes less than an hour to assemble (if that). It's no harder than changing a light switch or plugging in your speakers.
With the free shipping the price difference between the 12" Titanic and Rava would be about $50. The Titanic is a more capable woofer with a parametric eq built into the amp...well worth the price difference.

I built one for my parents in an afternoon and was shocked when it wipped the floor with my Paradigm PW-2200 ($850 or so). I bought the PW-2200 to replace a HSU VTF-2 (which it did quite nicely). I have no doubt it will outperform any $500 SVS or Hsu Research sub, though it might not look as pretty.

Since the Rava is no longer available to you, this is the easiest and best solution I can think of.
Good luck, let us know what you decide.

[IRG]

Yeah, I agree, the cabinet could have had (should have had) a facelift. But keep in mind with subs, internal volume is extremely important and it's quite common see similar sizes...I suspect they kept the same cabinets to help keep costs lower than they othewise would have been, but I don't know for sure...

But of the 3 components in the sub, 2 of them have been changed significantly, and the most important component (woofer) completely. If you understand Thiel/Small parameters, you'll realize that the effect of the 3rd component (the cabinet) also changes when the woofer changes.
So it's pretty much a complete overhaul.

I do sympathize with people such as yourself with families, budgets and limited free time who are getting overlooked by Adire.

And I also agree, the name was kept for marketing reasons rather than continuity of a sub line.

You could look at the Parts Express 12" Titanic MKIII kit. It literally takes less than an hour to assemble (if that). It's no harder than changing a light switch or plugging in your speakers.
With the free shipping the price difference between the 12" Titanic and Rava would be about $50. The Titanic is a more capable woofer with a parametric eq built into the amp...well worth the price difference.

I built one for my parents in an afternoon and was shocked when it wipped the floor with my Paradigm PW-2200 ($850 or so). I bought the PW-2200 to replace a HSU VTF-2 (which it did quite nicely). I have no doubt it will outperform any $500 SVS or Hsu Research sub, though it might not look as pretty.

Since the Rava is no longer available to you, this is the easiest and best solution I can think of.
Good luck, let us know what you decide.

Good post again.
I have a question, when you mentioned that "you'll realize that the effect of the 3rd component (the cabinet) also changes when the woofer changes.
So it's pretty much a complete overhaul." So if I understand correctly (or maybe I don't) since the woofer has changed, shouldn't the cabinet have changed as well?

Regarding the Parts Express sub, thoughts on the 10" model vs. the 12". PE mentioned the 10" is better for music (another debate on another thread I know!) but for the lowest extension (more for HT), the 12" is better. My room size is about 13 x 18, with 8 foot ceilings. Would you still go with the 12" model? Also, thoughts on the SVS PB10 - at $429 seems like a very good sub. Hits low, and seems loud enough for me - on paper at least. Price wise is right inbetween the PE 10 and the PE12. Looks better too, which is somewhat of a factor in my house. I will say the PE speaker stands I just bought are awesome. If the 12" model was a little bit cheaper, I would probably go for it. Assembly looks simple.

[IRG]

Yeah, I agree, the cabinet could have had (should have had) a facelift. But keep in mind with subs, internal volume is extremely important and it's quite common see similar sizes...I suspect they kept the same cabinets to help keep costs lower than they othewise would have been, but I don't know for sure...

But of the 3 components in the sub, 2 of them have been changed significantly, and the most important component (woofer) completely. If you understand Thiel/Small parameters, you'll realize that the effect of the 3rd component (the cabinet) also changes when the woofer changes.
So it's pretty much a complete overhaul.

I do sympathize with people such as yourself with families, budgets and limited free time who are getting overlooked by Adire.

And I also agree, the name was kept for marketing reasons rather than continuity of a sub line.

You could look at the Parts Express 12" Titanic MKIII kit. It literally takes less than an hour to assemble (if that). It's no harder than changing a light switch or plugging in your speakers.
With the free shipping the price difference between the 12" Titanic and Rava would be about $50. The Titanic is a more capable woofer with a parametric eq built into the amp...well worth the price difference.

I built one for my parents in an afternoon and was shocked when it wipped the floor with my Paradigm PW-2200 ($850 or so). I bought the PW-2200 to replace a HSU VTF-2 (which it did quite nicely). I have no doubt it will outperform any $500 SVS or Hsu Research sub, though it might not look as pretty.

Since the Rava is no longer available to you, this is the easiest and best solution I can think of.
Good luck, let us know what you decide.

One mor thing - what is the actual benefit of the parametric equalizer on the PE sub, and how does it work?

[kexodusc]

OH MAN!!!
Great question!

There are a lot of posts here if you were to search threads, search "Behringer Feedback Destroyer" for a better explanation, but I'll give you a short version.

Your speakers are rated by frequency response - simple measure of accuracy. It's listed as 40Hz to 20,000Hz +/- 3 dB usually...that means the signal never deviates more than 3dB up or down(in the tested conditions) from the average volume. This is quite good. In real listening room conditions, bass frequencies tend to be very problematic because of the acoustics of your room. Room acoustics can impact sound as much as the speakers themselves!!!
What you generally see is the frequency response below 100Hz (actually even above) start to get out of hand as the bass frequencies interact with the room.

In my room I measured peaks and dips that were over 26 dB apart. So instead of a 6dB loudness difference between the loudest and softest sounds, you're at 26 dB (and often worse).
This is terrible. You'd never buy a speaker that was like this. Why would you insist on a bass frequencies that perform as such?

The Parametric Eq allows you to target the problem frequencies in your room and cut or boost signal to a wide or narrow band. Essentially flattening out the response curves so there are no big peaks or valleys (well, the dips arent' really helped much, just the peaks but that's okay, we treat the dips other ways). It's not uncommon to see a +16 or higher peak.

Without a PEQ, you will hear your peaks and adjust your sub to that level, so that most of the bass is too quiet and not level matched, or you set it to the average or even a weak point, and some peaks (which are generally quite wide in frequency range) are excessively loud and make your sub too boomy at some frequencies. With the EQing, your bass sounds more even, fuller and far more accurate.

The amps in the Titanic allow you to kill the worst peak in you system, and fine tune the bass response.

Rarely is one band enough though, eventually you should add a full, mulitband P EQ to the system for optimal results, such as the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (or BFD). At $100 it's a steal right now.

In my opinion, you shouldn't use a subwoofer without one. Period. I'm glad to see plate amps are finally coming with them.

[kexodusc]

Good post again.
I have a question, when you mentioned that "you'll realize that the effect of the 3rd component (the cabinet) also changes when the woofer changes.
So it's pretty much a complete overhaul." So if I understand correctly (or maybe I don't) since the woofer has changed, shouldn't the cabinet have changed as well?

Well it doesn't necessarily have to change as most woofers are flexible in their performance over a wide range of volumes. But the effect the cabinet has on the original driver and new driver will be different. If a shortcut had to be made in designing a sub, I'd always want it to be the cabinet volume provided it was within parameters. 12" woofers usually do good in a 2.5-3.0 foot sealed cabinet...some even lower or higher. They probably looked at it, saw it was more than acceptable and decided to keep the status quo. It's doubtful they designed a woofer around a cabinet size. Generally 0.1 or 0.2 cubic feet doesn't make much difference overall.


Regarding the Parts Express sub, thoughts on the 10" model vs. the 12". PE mentioned the 10" is better for music (another debate on another thread I know!) but for the lowest extension (more for HT), the 12" is better. My room size is about 13 x 18, with 8 foot ceilings. Would you still go with the 12" model?
If you were going to go with a 12" Rava, then you had better go with a 12" Titanic. As I mentioned, the 12" Titanic is just tiny bit up on the Rava in terms of performance, probably not much noticeable in sound quality or extension, but it can shake the house a bit more. Since this is not a big deal to you, consider the single band Parametric Eq as a nicety and worth the price difference. By the time you add shipping to the Rava, the price difference isn't too much, and you're getting a slightly better unit.

The 10" is a great sub for the money. It will do 28 Hz to 80 Hz much better than most other $400 subs, especially ported designs. It is more than sufficient for home theater but given that 8 Hz is lost at the bottom end, I hesitate to call it a great Home Theater subwoofer. It was really made to handle music more than movies. If you were to listen to it, you wouldn't notice the 8 Hz missing, except that you know the specs. But a lot of movies do use frequencies down below 28 hz. I believe this is why the 10" is cited as a better "music sub" (in addition to cone control advantages a smaller woofer might have).
For $200 less, it's a better buy for a music only system.
Save up and get the 12" or consider other DIY subs.



Also, thoughts on the SVS PB10 - at $429 seems like a very good sub. Hits low, and seems loud enough for me - on paper at least. Price wise is right inbetween the PE 10 and the PE12. Looks better too, which is somewhat of a factor in my house. I will say the PE speaker stands I just bought are awesome. If the 12" model was a little bit cheaper, I would probably go for it. Assembly looks simple.
On paper is the key word here. The PB10 looks to me to be a great 10" ported sub. I don't doubt it's better than many commercial offerings. But simply playing frequencies within +/-3 dB tolerance in a sub isn't enough to judge it's sound quality - how it delivers bass.
The 12" Titanic will play louder but that's moot, I doubt you'd crank up either to the point that would matter. It's also a sealed cabinet design. The improved transient responses in a sealed cabinet design and the better control the magnet and motor have over the woofer, make it a better sounding option in most cases. The cone in a sealed design sees the air inside the cabinet act as a brake, allowing the woofer to come to rest instead of continuing to oscillate, sealed subs generally settle 3 or 4 times quicker than ported subs. We're talking miliseconds here, but it's enough for you to pick up when listening. Each bass note attack is sharper and faster. It's decay is also more precise, less extra decay. You almost have to hear the two side by side to understand the difference.

I'm not suggesting sealed subs are better than ported subs. To me they have slightly different applications. If I had $430 and I wanted to use a sub for 80% home theater, 20% music, I would probably be better off with a quality ported sub unless I could find a sealed sub that played as low and as loud for the same price. Not likely. For 50% music and home theater or better, you'd probably prefer sound quality over loudness and deepness...this is the tradeoff.
In the case of the PB10 vs 12" Titanic, if you buy the Titanic, you can have your cake and eat it too, as it would be better at both, and the difference is price is $100 minus the PB10 shipping costs.
You'll have to balance what you want, what you need, with how much money you're willing to spend.
Maybe there's other options out there if you aren't in a rush?

[Woochifer]

Been poking around the Adire forum, and the higher MSRPs are apparently indicative of Adire's transition to a dealer-based distribution model. Some of the dealers have chimed in that the MSRP does not indicate the true "street price" of the new product lines. But, since the products aren't out yet, all that a consumer currently has to go on IS the MSRP. An $800 subwoofer is not how anyone currently pictures the Rava.

I posted my concerns on the Adire forum, and got flamed by a couple of the fanboys who insist that the prices are not a concern. Maybe not for them, but all I know is that if I was currently in the market for a subwoofer and my price point was still $500, the sticker shock of doubling the price on the Rava would probably prod me to drop Adire from consideration on principle alone. I just don't see the point of doubling the list price. If the new Rava has that much greater performance capability than the old version, and can justifiably lay claim to the midrange market, then it should probably wear a different name. Conversely, if the actual "street price" is a lot lower, then I also don't see the point of quoting a radically higher list price. Either way, it does not create good will with potential buyers.

A point that Kyle Richardson of Acoustic Vision brought up, which I think is very valid, is that people might not raise as much of a stink about the price if the new sub did not wear the Rava name. Kyle points out that the new version uses a higher performance driver and amp. If the specs are correct, then this new sub is not a Rava, but more like a midlevel sub.

I would also hope that the speculation about Adire coming out with a new entry level sub turns out to be true. But, on the other hand, Adire did at one point have the market to themselves with the Rava. Now, you got plenty of sealed subs selling for around $500. With thin margins and a much more crowded marketplace, Adire might be willing to vacate that part of the market altogether.

If indeed Adire leaves that price point behind, there are so many more sealed options now that the Rava's absence from the $400 price does not matter as much now as it would have a couple of years ago. Acoustic Visions' own MRS-10 sub uses a XBL^2-based driver and on paper at least, its performance is very close to the Rava's and it has a much smaller cabinet.

P.S. Kex, I couldn't have explained the parametric EQ any better myself! :D

[IRG]

Been poking around the Adire forum, and the higher MSRPs are apparently indicative of Adire's transition to a dealer-based distribution model. Some of the dealers have chimed in that the MSRP does not indicate the true "street price" of the new product lines. But, since the products aren't out yet, all that a consumer currently has to go on IS the MSRP. An $800 subwoofer is not how anyone currently pictures the Rava.

I posted my concerns on the Adire forum, and got flamed by a couple of the fanboys who insist that the prices are not a concern. Maybe not for them, but all I know is that if I was currently in the market for a subwoofer and my price point was still $500, the sticker shock of doubling the price on the Rava would probably prod me to drop Adire from consideration on principle alone. I just don't see the point of doubling the list price. If the new Rava has that much greater performance capability than the old version, and can justifiably lay claim to the midrange market, then it should probably wear a different name. Conversely, if the actual "street price" is a lot lower, then I also don't see the point of quoting a radically higher list price. Either way, it does not create good will with potential buyers.

A point that Kyle Richardson of Acoustic Vision brought up, which I think is very valid, is that people might not raise as much of a stink about the price if the new sub did not wear the Rava name. Kyle points out that the new version uses a higher performance driver and amp. If the specs are correct, then this new sub is not a Rava, but more like a midlevel sub.

I would also hope that the speculation about Adire coming out with a new entry level sub turns out to be true. But, on the other hand, Adire did at one point have the market to themselves with the Rava. Now, you got plenty of sealed subs selling for around $500. With thin margins and a much more crowded marketplace, Adire might be willing to vacate that part of the market altogether.

If indeed Adire leaves that price point behind, there are so many more sealed options now that the Rava's absence from the $400 price does not matter as much now as it would have a couple of years ago. Acoustic Visions' own MRS-10 sub uses a XBL^2-based driver and on paper at least, its performance is very close to the Rava's and it has a much smaller cabinet.

P.S. Kex, I couldn't have explained the parametric EQ any better myself! :D

I agree with most everything you have said here, and have reiterated some of these thoughts in my other posts. I guess what irks me, is that I always looked at the Adire Rava as already being a midlevel sub, with more of an entry level price. There are a lot of subs in the $400 range and under that are not great products, but their prices aren't bad either. The Rava it seemed, killed them all for the same $400. And it competed very nicely if not outperformed many subs that were already in the midlevel range, at again, a better price. At $800, and with an improved driver and amp it may yet again raise the bar for midlevel subs, but now that price has shifted to the point that it isn't the great deal as the old Rava. Most likely we wouldn't be complaining at all, if the original Rava had never been introduced, or if it sold at $600+. But at $400, it was on my shopping list for sure, at $800, it is not. But for others that are looking to buy a $800-1200 sub, this might be just the ticket. It may even be a bargain. However, it now has a lot more competition than it ever had at $400. At least that's the way I am viewing it.

[IRG]

Well it doesn't necessarily have to change as most woofers are flexible in their performance over a wide range of volumes. But the effect the cabinet has on the original driver and new driver will be different. If a shortcut had to be made in designing a sub, I'd always want it to be the cabinet volume provided it was within parameters. 12" woofers usually do good in a 2.5-3.0 foot sealed cabinet...some even lower or higher. They probably looked at it, saw it was more than acceptable and decided to keep the status quo. It's doubtful they designed a woofer around a cabinet size. Generally 0.1 or 0.2 cubic feet doesn't make much difference overall.

If you were going to go with a 12" Rava, then you had better go with a 12" Titanic. As I mentioned, the 12" Titanic is just tiny bit up on the Rava in terms of performance, probably not much noticeable in sound quality or extension, but it can shake the house a bit more. Since this is not a big deal to you, consider the single band Parametric Eq as a nicety and worth the price difference. By the time you add shipping to the Rava, the price difference isn't too much, and you're getting a slightly better unit.

The 10" is a great sub for the money. It will do 28 Hz to 80 Hz much better than most other $400 subs, especially ported designs. It is more than sufficient for home theater but given that 8 Hz is lost at the bottom end, I hesitate to call it a great Home Theater subwoofer. It was really made to handle music more than movies. If you were to listen to it, you wouldn't notice the 8 Hz missing, except that you know the specs. But a lot of movies do use frequencies down below 28 hz. I believe this is why the 10" is cited as a better "music sub" (in addition to cone control advantages a smaller woofer might have).
For $200 less, it's a better buy for a music only system.
Save up and get the 12" or consider other DIY subs.


On paper is the key word here. The PB10 looks to me to be a great 10" ported sub. I don't doubt it's better than many commercial offerings. But simply playing frequencies within +/-3 dB tolerance in a sub isn't enough to judge it's sound quality - how it delivers bass.
The 12" Titanic will play louder but that's moot, I doubt you'd crank up either to the point that would matter. It's also a sealed cabinet design. The improved transient responses in a sealed cabinet design and the better control the magnet and motor have over the woofer, make it a better sounding option in most cases. The cone in a sealed design sees the air inside the cabinet act as a brake, allowing the woofer to come to rest instead of continuing to oscillate, sealed subs generally settle 3 or 4 times quicker than ported subs. We're talking miliseconds here, but it's enough for you to pick up when listening. Each bass note attack is sharper and faster. It's decay is also more precise, less extra decay. You almost have to hear the two side by side to understand the difference.

I'm not suggesting sealed subs are better than ported subs. To me they have slightly different applications. If I had $430 and I wanted to use a sub for 80% home theater, 20% music, I would probably be better off with a quality ported sub unless I could find a sealed sub that played as low and as loud for the same price. Not likely. For 50% music and home theater or better, you'd probably prefer sound quality over loudness and deepness...this is the tradeoff.
In the case of the PB10 vs 12" Titanic, if you buy the Titanic, you can have your cake and eat it too, as it would be better at both, and the difference is price is $100 minus the PB10 shipping costs.
You'll have to balance what you want, what you need, with how much money you're willing to spend.
Maybe there's other options out there if you aren't in a rush?

Thanks for the great follow up. I am not in a rush to answer the last question. I've been looking for a while, I have a sub now at least, so it is really more of a finding the right sub at the right price. The PE 12 may just be the right sub for me. I really like PE products too. Good value for the money. I may try some of their Dayton speaker cables soon, for $35 or whatever they are. One thing I like about the SVS, which has nothing to do with sound, is the look of the sub, and the fact that it comes in different colors, other than black. PE should try that with their cabinet finishes. Wouldn't cost them much I bet.

It seems though for my needs and price range, the SVS, Hsu, PartsExpress, Acoustic Visions - these are the best choices for the money. I wasn't aware that the PE subs were sealed. I thought they were ported. I may actually prefer sealed though. Volume isn't a concern for me. My JBL can make the house rattle now, and that is only a 10" 150 watt sub. As I posted at one time, the whole musical vs HT sub issue, the PE 10" is a musical sub first, and a HT sub second. As you said, it is still good for HT, but it won't hit the 16-28hz range, whereas the 12" sub will. Will the 12" sub be as good for music? Probably, especially since it does have the EQ option on it. That alone as you pointed out, might make it worthwhile. Cheers. Today is Slope Day at Cornell - that means it is a drunken revelry on campus. The bad part is, I am working and not a student anymore :(

[kexodusc]

Wooch:

If what you say is true and the $800 is a goofy MSRP nobody will ever pay, then I think Adire is partly to blame...they could easily advertise a more realistic price on the website and limit retailers from using high MSRP's. I really think though that's it's a bit too early to tell just now for us to get too excited over this...Is the new Rava even being sold yet?

Sorry to hear you got flamed for expressing your concerns. I try to avoid manufacturer forums too often for because of what you experienced at the Adire forum...fanboys always seem to ruin the potential of on-line forums for delivering great, "unbiased" opinions on products.

The Parts Express and Madisound forums are the only ones I know where they encourage competitors products as often as they discourage them. You think you got it bad...you should have seen what happened to me when I went to the Axiom forum to and responded to a poster who wanted verifcation that the M3Ti's sounded better than the Studio 20's. When I told him I though they were competitive with the Mini Monitors and just a bit shy on the bass relative to them, I opened my mailbox to find 20 death-threat e-mails!!! I give Axiom credit...selling a $250 speaker that can go toe-to-toe with a $400 speaker is rather impressive...not enough in this case, though. This really left a bad taste in my mouth for the testaments of some of these internet-direct speaker companies.
I see it with the HSU group too...I liked my VTF-2...it was great at what it was, but to hear it get compared to $1000 subs is rediculous. My PW-2200 was a big improvement.

As you said, the entry level sub market is extremely crowded right now, and time will tell whether Adire is doing the right thing. I don't blame them for abandonning a low margin market though, if that's what the truth is. The alternative is much worse: keeping the Rava name and applying it to a cheaper, inferior product. How often have we seen that?

[kexodusc]

Thanks for the great follow up. I am not in a rush to answer the last question. I've been looking for a while, I have a sub now at least, so it is really more of a finding the right sub at the right price. The PE 12 may just be the right sub for me. I really like PE products too. Good value for the money. I may try some of their Dayton speaker cables soon, for $35 or whatever they are. One thing I like about the SVS, which has nothing to do with sound, is the look of the sub, and the fact that it comes in different colors, other than black. PE should try that with their cabinet finishes. Wouldn't cost them much I bet.

It seems though for my needs and price range, the SVS, Hsu, PartsExpress, Acoustic Visions - these are the best choices for the money. I wasn't aware that the PE subs were sealed. I thought they were ported. I may actually prefer sealed though. Volume isn't a concern for me. My JBL can make the house rattle now, and that is only a 10" 150 watt sub. As I posted at one time, the whole musical vs HT sub issue, the PE 10" is a musical sub first, and a HT sub second. As you said, it is still good for HT, but it won't hit the 16-28hz range, whereas the 12" sub will. Will the 12" sub be as good for music? Probably, especially since it does have the EQ option on it. That alone as you pointed out, might make it worthwhile. Cheers. Today is Slope Day at Cornell - that means it is a drunken revelry on campus. The bad part is, I am working and not a student anymore :(

IRG,

The Titanic's cabinets aren't exactly gorgeous, but they do look better than the web pictures. If you're really concerned about looks, Parts Express sells 4 or 5 different shades of wood grain vinyl wraps, the kind you see on most sub $1000 speakers. The Cherry, Beech, Black Ash, and Red Maple are really popular. $15 for a roll would do the sub, and it's super easy to apply...peel n' stick...just use a utility knife to carefully trim.

[bikeman]

Wooch:
I see it with the HSU group too...I liked my VTF-2...it was great at what it was, but to hear it get compared to $1000 subs is rediculous. My PW-2200 was a big improvement.


The Hsu Forum was the worst I've seen. I've heard that they have tried to tone it down but I haven't been back to find out.

David

[kexodusc]

The Hsu Forum was the worst I've seen. I've heard that they have tried to tone it down but I haven't been back to find out.

David

Yeah, it's bad there, but the SVS has it's little click too. I've seen them group up and visit a few other forums in large numbers like a Christian mission...these two groups should do the world a favour and either merge or go out of business...they both have a bad habbit of raiding other forums and shilling/flaming their subs.

Worst part is, I think it hurts the credibility of their products.

[drseid]

Just a quick look at these 3 companies competitive offerings at the $1000 price point and I don't think Adire has much to worry about at all. SVS and HSU concentrate on vented subs, however the ACI Titanic would be a very close competitor. But it's downfiring design, and lack of dual parametric EQ are two immediate shortcomings (albeit the downfiring aspect shouldn't matter too much below 60Hz).
I think the Titanic looks gorgeous though and might be reason enough for higher price...the devil is in the details though, I'd like to see some output specs...right now I don't see $250 in value more in the Titanic.

If by "Titanic," you mean the ACI *Titan* than most likely it is indeed worth the extra $250 if music is your priority, IMO (I am also an owner... ;-)). Since I have not heard the new RAVA yet, I can't be 100% sure (although I have yet to find a sub under $2000 that I would take over it to date for music -- HT is another matter).

It does indeed look gorgeous, but it is its ability to integrate extremely well for music with just about any speaker (including difficult planers) that set it apart from most other subs anywhere near its price point. It uses two crossover knobs so that you can get the crossover fine tuned for a seamless match with the mains. I also like the fact that it has a very low crossover point at 35 HZ, so those with larger speakers can take advantage of their abilities a bit more if desired.

Actually, the ACI competitor to the new RAVA would be the Force, at $750.

As for the offerings from Hsu and SVS... I would not readily dismiss them due to their ported design... After all, at the end of the day if they sound better, it does not matter if they are ported or not. Most buyers will just look for the best sound... And if they can find better sound than the new RAVA for less money, then I think it may be a tough sell at the higher price point. Again, the sales will tell us the answer (and also it will depend on the discounts dealers sell them for) , right now it is pure speculation.

---Dave

[kexodusc]

If by "Titanic," you mean the ACI *Titan* than most likely it is indeed worth the extra $250 if music is your priority, IMO (I am also an owner... ;-)). Since I have not heard the new RAVA yet, I can't be 100% sure (although I have yet to find a sub under $2000 that I would take over it to date for music -- HT is another matter).

It does indeed look gorgeous, but it is its ability to integrate extremely well for music with just about any speaker (including difficult planers) that set it apart from most other subs anywhere near its price point. It uses two crossover knobs so that you can get the crossover fine tuned for a seamless match with the mains. I also like the fact that it has a very low crossover point at 35 HZ, so those with larger speakers can take advantage of their abilities a bit more if desired.

Actually, the ACI competitor to the new RAVA would be the Force, at $750.

As for the offerings from Hsu and SVS... I would not readily dismiss them due to their ported design... After all, at the end of the day if they sound better, it does not matter if they are ported or not. Most buyers will just look for the best sound... And if they can find better sound than the new RAVA for less money, then I think it may be a tough sell at the higher price point. Again, the sales will tell us the answer (and also it will depend on the discounts dealers sell them for) , right now it is pure speculation.

---Dave
Sorry you're absolutely right - Titan, not Titanic (that's 3 speakers I know of now with the name Titan - so much for creativity).

Not to dismiss the Hsu and SVS units (I've owned Hsu before), but there are simple technical truths about ported subs vs sealed designs. Much like a guitar cannot reach the same notes as a bass because of the physics associated with its size and design,, a ported sub is limited by its make-up in certain areas.
It's been know for years that all things equal, ported designs are a step behind sealed designs in terms of "musicality". This is the largest reason why you find your Titan so great for music reproduction.

The Rava is really in another league compared to the Force...not to knock the Force at all, but Rava's proper competitor would be the Titan, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Rava was a as good or a bit better. The XBL^2 motor technology is something else. 105 dB output at 20Hz from a 12 sub anechoic puts the Rava in exclusive company right now, unfortunately ACI doesn't publish such detailed specs but I'd love to see some if you know where I could find any. I've been wanting to hear ACI's products for awhile now.

I'd be curious to know who makes the woofer for ACI as it appears they don't make it themselves. (it could very well be based on Adire's technology).

[drseid]

Sorry you're absolutely right - Titan, not Titanic (that's 3 speakers I know of now with the name Titan - so much for creativity).

Not to dismiss the Hsu and SVS units (I've owned Hsu before), but there are simple technical truths about ported subs vs sealed designs. Much like a guitar cannot reach the same notes as a bass because of the physics associated with its size and design,, a ported sub is limited by its make-up in certain areas.
It's been know for years that all things equal, ported designs are a step behind sealed designs in terms of "musicality". This is the largest reason why you find your Titan so great for music reproduction.

The Rava is really in another league compared to the Force...not to knock the Force at all, but Rava's proper competitor would be the Titan, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Rava was a as good or a bit better. The XBL^2 motor technology is something else. 105 dB output at 20Hz from a 12 sub anechoic puts the Rava in exclusive company right now, unfortunately ACI doesn't publish such detailed specs but I'd love to see some if you know where I could find any. I've been wanting to hear ACI's products for awhile now.

I'd be curious to know who makes the woofer for ACI as it appears they don't make it themselves. (it could very well be based on Adire's technology).
Sorry Kex, I don't have specs on the Titan (or Titan II as it was called when I bought mine)... Soundwise, I do recommend you hear it (and the Force), because I think you may just have to eat your words. ;-)

As for the driver, it is theirs... they used to sell their drivers to the DIY market, but I believe they stopped a year or two ago. I remember that it was quite costly though (much more than the Shiva)... I think it is an ACI SV12 driver for what that is worth... There are a couple reviews on the driver on this site.

As for ported versus sealed... I would agree ceterus parabus as you said... The key though is "all things being equal." :-)

Regards,

---Dave

[kexodusc]

Thanks for the info...did a bit of research...at $150, the SV12 is right on par with the Shiva driver in the Rava, well the old one anyway, the new one has been improved significantly so time will tell.

It looks like a pretty solid woofer through and through though, not much different in terms of performance than the 12" version of the driver in the sub I'm building (went for a 15" as in this case it's actually a bit better for music).

Subwoofer technology has changed so much in the last 5 years, I'd say outside the digital realm it's undergoing the most rapid change of all components - maybe even including the digital stuff.
When the ACI SV12 came out, 12" subwoofers with 10% distortion, low xmax, and Fs in the mid 20's were considered good. This thing would have trumped those. Now you can find this in a 10" unit and then some, and in the 12" market things have become far more competitive. It seems every month there's a new reigning king. Not to worry, this woofer is still a quality unit, I think others have just caught up. .

I'm not too sure I"m liking where things are going though - high xmax, high power output - marketing is driving the demand for subs now as consumers are focusing too much on the sexy numbers and not necessarily on pragmatism. I don't listen to music at 105 dB sustained for hours at a time, nor do I hear down to 15 Hz. These benefits are impressive on paper, but in my listening tests don't add anything to the experience...well the room shakes a bit more, maybe.

[drseid]

I'm not too sure I"m liking where things are going though - high xmax, high power output - marketing is driving the demand for subs now as consumers are focusing too much on the sexy numbers and not necessarily on pragmatism. I don't listen to music at 105 dB sustained for hours at a time, nor do I hear down to 15 Hz. These benefits are impressive on paper, but in my listening tests don't add anything to the experience...well the room shakes a bit more, maybe.

Yes, I agree that for music (at least for me) that would indeed be overkill, even for some aggresive Rock tracks. As far as I am concerned, if the sub can blend in with the mains and keep pace with the music properly without calling attention to itself... then it is getting the job done. Now with *HT* I could see someone wanting the big SPL capabilities (at least for peaks).

Ironically, that is all I use my sub for now (HT LFE track)... Still, 105 db would be "neighbors are ready to kill you" loud. :-)

---Dave

[kexodusc]

Yes, I agree that for music (at least for me) that would indeed be overkill, even for some aggresive Rock tracks. As far as I am concerned, if the sub can blend in with the mains and keep pace with the music properly without calling attention to itself... then it is getting the job done. Now with *HT* I could see someone wanting the big SPL capabilities (at least for peaks).

Ironically, that is all I use my sub for now (HT LFE track)... Still, 105 db would be "neighbors are ready to kill you" loud. :-)

---Dave

I agree - in fact, when building my sub I deliberately chose a woofer that wasn't designed for 120 dB volumes, but instead concentrated it's design on sound quality. Not that it won't go loud enough for me, I hit 107 dB in room with a 20 Hz test tone which is ear bleeding loud (anything below 18 Hz and the plate amp cuts the signal off to prevent clipping). It does the job admirably, sounding better than woofers from the same manufacturer that are 3 times it's price. Most people just buy 2 if they really need the high out put and still save money.
Subs have really turned into a horsepower race in recent years, and more and more companies seem to be fixated on max SPL at 20Hz.

Most of my loud listening is in the low/mid 80's dB with the odd peak in mid 90's. That leaves plenty of headroom. These guys that need the 115 dB subwoofers have probably shot their hearing after years of abuse and have a 35 dB impairment.

It's easy for us to get carried away, but after years of chasing audio trends in my youth, spending way more money than I should have, I've learned to build my system to meet my needs with a bit of extra headroom, rather than to purchase wasted, unused potential.
Sounds like you're on the right track with the Titan II as well.

[Easy E]

I have been reading this thread, didnt read it all through. First off Adire went from a direct/dealer network to a pure dealer network. You can contact your favorite dealer and ask them about the Rava. Adire went to a MSRP setup, I know I am not selling at MSRP for Adire products and I know a few other dealers arent either.... Now about the Rava 2, from what I have speculated, it could be a koda 12 driver. Dont take my word on it, could be a modified Koda 12 but something around that specs is what Adire is aiming for. If you have and Adire questions feel free to ask and I will try to answer them since I am probally the onle one here that can represent for Adire, as I being a dealer and all.

[Peter Marcks]

Dear gentlemen,

Ported vs sealed is a classic case of tradeoff by any given designer. We use ported systems because our goal is to achieve as flat a power response as possible in the general operating range, even approaching maximum output of the sub, for as low a cost as possible. With port contribution, driver excursion demands can be significantly reduced at certain points above tuning. The tradeoff is significantly different behavior below the cutoff frequency (hence the need for subsonic filtering with ported designs). Also, port noise can be a limiting factor, in addition to port length that can fit into any given box size to affect low frequency tuning.

That said, bass tends not to be very transient at the lowest frequencies. A ported subwoofer with a very low tuning point tends to act much liked a sealed subwoofer system in the frequency range where bass is transient. The main difficulty in implementing this is that port length needs to be extremely long in order to achieve a very low tune using a large amount of port area in a box size that is acceptable to most consumers. In an attempt to remove or relieve some of these tradeoffs, we plan to offer two things: one, we plan to offer a sealed mode with custom eq since some people prefer this, where all one need to do is plug all the port(s) and adjust amplifier settings accordingly; two, we plan to offer a turbocharger add-on that essentially extends port length without dramatically increasing enclosure size and without reducing available port flow area. Hopefully consumers will be pleased with the choice.

On an aside, I must say that things have been cleaned up at the Hsu forum. The past few months of postings at our forum is evidence of this. Everyone is welcome to contribute, as we all need to be helpful and supportive to the best of our ability.

Sincerely,

Peter Marcks
Hsu Research

[kexodusc]

Peter, I'd love to see Hsu offer a sealed design, though I can appreciate how difficult it would be to create and offer yet another product while keeping it affordable and versatile.

However, I think offering good ported designs is a safe approach for most sub manufacturers. Most people tend to use their subs for home theater AND music, not one or the other exclusively. And I believe the bulk of your customers would prefer smaller box sizes than 15" woofer would require. Furthermore, a the cost 12" driver in a sealed cabinet capable of reaching the low 20 Hz region with high SPL capabilities is probably prohibitive to many of your buyers.

I dare say there are not many 12" sealed subs capable of high SPL's with response in the low 20's that are available at the low price points your products are at. There's not many sealed cabinet options period, truth be told. This could be a niche market to consider (hint, hint), though it doesn't seem as popular with todays "big numbers are better" crowd.

I must say, I did enjoy my VTF-2 while I had it, and though my needs have grown, I still recommend it to others.
I'm curious - could you give us a ball park of how much you'd expect the port plugs to affect the maximum output of the subwoofer? Especially if the cabinet volume remains the same...we generally see sealed cabinets at much smaller size than ported cabinets. Any fears of exceeding the excursion limits for the woofer with this approach?

I've seen other companies abandon this approach just to protect their customers from over powering the woofer when the system is sealed with plugs. Educating consumers is sometimes quite difficult. Would you anticipate this to be a problem? Maybe soft-clipping circuitry in the amp?

Thanks,

[Peter Marcks]

Dear kexodusc,

We definitely have a good sense of how output changes when moving from maximum output mode (two ports open) to maximum extension mode (one port open). This tends to be about 2-3db's when using the 10% harmonic distortion limit. How these modes compare to the sealed mode (zero ports open) is uncharted territory. We hope to have these new units reviewed by professional reviewers who will document differences in clean output capability. So definitely stay tuned! Now, with regards to protection for the woofer from overexcursion when in sealed mode, it should not be a problem as long as the amplifier has protection built-in. Have faith my friend :)

Sincerely,

Peter Marcks
Hsu Research