I got my Swan Diva 6.1s....** Review ** [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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ssabripo
04-27-2005, 09:10 AM
I was in the market for some $600 speakers, but then I increased the budget to $1500; I started to audition B&Ws, Paradigms, Energy veritas and Connosseuir, Axiom M60 and M80, Rockets 750, and a few others...anyway:

After all the research, I decided on the Swan Diva 6.1 mains and the Swan Diva 3C Center:

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/theaudioinsider/images/items/6.1_small.jpg and http://www.theaudioinsider.com/theaudioinsider/images/items/c3bc_small.jpg

I am just completely blown away by these speakers (they arrived yesterday), so I will put a small review here.....pics to follow in the next couple of days:

Packaging
As soon as I got home, I knew this thing was up to a good start, because the 3 boxes arrived on top of a wooden Palette, each box made of really thick carton, and the whole thing wrapped in plastic so it doesn't get wet, etc.... I started to open the center channel box (which was huge for the size of the center channel iitself) and removed all the foam bricks and corners just to realize there was another box inside! :eek: I took the inner box out, and again, there was plenty of foam bricks and corners, and the foam molds holding the thing in place!

I pulled speaker out (it was HEAVY! ) but it was wrapped in an anti-scratching white fiber bag. There were two small gloves made of thin material on the top as well, so I used them to handle the speakers and remove the bag. When I pulled it out, my jaw dropped at the finish of this thing....(see below) http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/bowdown.gif

I did the same thing with the mains, which were much bigger, and needless to say, the packaging on them was even more impressive than the center...it took me about 20 min to take each freaggin thing out!

Visuals, Finishing
If you are in the market for a $5000 speaker look at sub$1000 prices, this is the speaker for you!!!!http://pichold.com/Images/Smilies/smoke.gif When I took these speakers out, the first thing I stared at was the Lacquer finish (truly it was Grand Piano quality) and the details. The floor studs where heafty, the connectors in the back where HuGE and solid...they are bi-wire capable and they have a solid plastic cover so that they don't get dinged or anything. I thought I had pretty thick IXOS speaker wires, but when you connect them to these speakers, they look tiny :p

Once the speakers were setup around my TV, they are just a BEAUTY to look at....truly, I looked at them for about 10 min before I even turned them on, because they were such an impressive and fine looking piece of furniture....

During the last few months, I was able to see several speakers, some at much higher price as well....I saw the B&W 603s, 704s, Nautilus 804s, as well as auditioning the Rockets 750 (in South miami....Thanks Enrique!http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/wavey.gif ), the Energy veritas 2.4, and some Paradigm Studios.....In true honesty, I can sit here and tell you that they don't come Close to the finish and look of these Swans! The Nautilus was the only one that I was equally or more impressed by than the swan 6.1s.

Musical Sound
These speakers need about 100 hours to break in, so this is not an accurate assesment, but if they are going to get better with time, I cannot fathom how much better they can sound!!!
http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/biggthumpup.gif I started by playing a mozart CD, a Jazz CD, then some MP3s from my iPod, followed by Norah Jones SACD, Pink Floyd, and then my AIXrecords' DVD audio sampler (all of these thru my Denon 3910 player, except the iPod). The musical accuracy was AMAZING!....these speakers produced sounds I have not heard on my CD's. I still have my Infinity IL10's as my surrounds, and they are overshadowed big time by the mains...they are just stunning and so clear.

The 3 things that surprised me the most are: very tight yet musically deep bass, crispy highs (perhaps too much for some, but I love them), and just astounding depth and acoustic resonance in the mids and voices. I will let them run for a couple of weeks, before giving my full review, but they are off to a blazing Start!!

HomeTheater Sound
I started by testing the levels using THX tests on the incredibles....the center channel had a louder level, but I left it like that for now. I then played LOTR-ROTK battle scene, Shark Tale 2 chasing scene, and Fifth Element Ultimate Edition last fighting scene....one word:WOW! The voices coming off that center channel were life-like, with depth and strenght! They had like a 3D spacial effect on them...wierd to explain....just like in the theaters!http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/dancingcool.gif The mains did a Superb job in doing the effects and the sounds when needed...but the Center channel here was the one who stole the show....

Again....more detailed info when I get a chance to dive in for more rigorous tests when these bad boys break in a little....

Initial conclusion

With the exception of B&W 704s, which were very close in sound quality, and the Nautilus 804s which I think did sound a little better, there is no speaker out there that has the combination of Sound, finish, and quality that the Swan 6.1s have, specially at this price range.

My colleague and neighbor has a set of B&W 603 S3 paired with a Denon 4803 Rx, and he came over to the house to check them out last nite... he was amazed at them as well, and told me that although it hurts to admit it, these bad boys are the better speakers musically (he didn't stay for the HT tests I did).

To all of you considering upgrading your mains (or your center channel) to something $2000 or less, I will tell you to give the Swan Diva 6.1s a test and I will guarantee you that it will be the speaker you end up choosing, specially when you realize they sound better, and are cheaper than a lot of speakers with much higher prices.

Finally, I will post pics in the next couple of days.....haven't had a chance yet, but I will:D

Jimmy C
04-27-2005, 03:32 PM
...they look great. Nothing like a new toy, eh?

They seem to have many similarities to the B&Ws... never heard them, though.

Have fun, and let us know what ya think in a few weeks...

Geoffcin
04-27-2005, 03:40 PM
Don't forget to post to the REVIEW section too.

topspeed
04-27-2005, 10:56 PM
First post is a love letter on Swans, eh? Color me skeptical.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say congrats on finding musical nirvana.

Enjoy!

ssabripo
04-28-2005, 04:40 AM
Yes, this is my first post here....so, I guess that's a bad thing in your opinion to be very happy with a product you bought and share it with others as a "first" post???? http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

you sure make people feel welcome here....thanks!

ps- no wonder there is not a lot of movement in this forum, because of people like you! I think I will stick with avsforum.com, and feel free to check that I have more than "1 post" over there!

pss- for those who asked me, here are some pics:

http://uploads2.offtopic.com/files/sherv_av_0017_small.jpg
http://uploads2.offtopic.com/files/sherv_av_0018_small.jpg
http://uploads2.offtopic.com/files/sherv_av_0019_small.jpg
http://uploads2.offtopic.com/files/sherv_av_0020_small.jpg
http://uploads2.offtopic.com/files/sherv_av_0022_small.jpg
http://uploads2.offtopic.com/files/sherv_av_0024_small.jpg
http://uploads2.offtopic.com/files/sherv_av_0025_small.jpg

kexodusc
04-28-2005, 05:37 AM
I've never heard Swans speakers, but I have heard a few of the Hi-Vi Research (parent company, big driver manufacturer) woofers in some other designs and don't doubt for a minute for a minute these speakers are a good buy. One in particular was mated with a Morel tweeter and was pretty darn nice sounding.

Hi-Vi wisened up a few years back and started a speaker company to help sell the drivers.
I have a feeling that this is going to be the future of speakers...China and Japan are among the highest consumers of hi-fi equipment (apparently much more so than home) and have the production facilities and capacities to make things very inexpensive...I don't know about all companies but Hi-Vi has a good rep for quality. I suspect as we're seeing elsewhere, many of the crappier companies will start to dry up.

The funny thing about Swans is all the knock off companies that are starting up selling speakers using the same drivers, cabinet size,etc...A lot of people suspect the production plant employees start up their own little side business or something.

Energy was the latest company I've heard of this year to move a lot of production to China from Canada....cheaper labor, better production facilities, lower costs etc...I don't think it'll be too long before some other bigger names start to feel the pressure too. Designing stage seems to remain abroad however (in this case USA).

I guess there's good and bad...loss of jobs, but cheaper prices...someday when China's economy catches up and the labor capacity approaches maximum, things will level out. I hope.

Worf101
04-28-2005, 06:00 AM
were all the RAGE here. Swan Divas an nOrh 9.0s were all anyone could talk about. They weren't being skeptical of your love of your Diva's they just thought you might have been a company shill. But the pics of your home system have put any doubts I had to rest. Enjoy. I almost bought a used pair of those myself...

Da Worfster :cool:

MomurdA
04-28-2005, 09:21 AM
duuuude, nice !@#$ing setup man. Those speakers look sweet, especially with the rest of your theater.

topspeed
04-28-2005, 09:50 AM
you sure make people feel welcome here....thanks!I try :D!


ps- no wonder there is not a lot of movement in this forum, because of people like you! I think I will stick with avsforum.com, and feel free to check that I have more than "1 post" over there! As Worfster said, there are such things as shills and lord knows we see them everyday. Generally, first posts that extoll the irrefutable virtues of "X" product warrant a bit of skepticism, wouldn't you agree? As I said before, congrats on finding musical nirvana. Believe it or not, I was actually serious.

ssabripo
04-28-2005, 01:58 PM
ok, well in that case, thanks....I wouldn't say i have found nirvana yet; I'm kinda anal like that. Gimme a nice set of Nautilus 803s, some Krell amps, some flat silver wire, and then we are talkin....:D

corwin99
04-28-2005, 04:18 PM
Those Swans sure are nice looking, I was very curious about their sound when i first saw them, but having to deal with importing them into Canada i decided to pass... what did you replace with them?

ssabripo
04-29-2005, 04:31 AM
I replaced a set of Infinity IL10 bookshelfs, and an infinity IL25C center channel....

Feanor
04-29-2005, 06:31 AM
Those Swans sure are nice looking, I was very curious about their sound when i first saw them, but having to deal with importing them into Canada i decided to pass... what did you replace with them?
I am tempted to do a DIY project using Hi-Vi ribbon tweeters. Hi-Vi drivers are available in Canada from Solen.ca

thepogue
04-29-2005, 11:49 AM
I heard the swans about four years ago and though they were a great buy...I enjoyed reading your post more for the excitment I felt from the review rather than as a pure review...because I know how I feel/felt when I'm playing new equipment...fun fun fun!

Peace, Pogue

ericl
04-29-2005, 12:00 PM
Hey Ssabripo,

Welcome, and what a beautiful setup! very elegant.

Hey, could you post your review in the reviews section, and your photos in the gallery? THat would be great. Feel free to leave this stuff here.

Thanks,
Eric

Worf101
05-01-2005, 10:36 AM
That set up looks schweet though... Congrats... Just keep lookin' at dem drivers. I've a pair of those that were shoehorned into a pair of vintage Epicure 15's. Best bookshelf I own right now...

Da Worsfter :D

kexodusc
05-01-2005, 10:53 AM
That set up looks schweet though... Congrats... Just keep lookin' at dem drivers. I've a pair of those that were shoehorned into a pair of vintage Epicure 15's. Best bookshelf I own right now...

Da Worsfter :D

Really Worf? I've been toying with the idea of ordering some of these to put into a large tower - something like the pics here, but just a standard 3-way...how would you describe the sound?

The price sure is right on the drivers.

corwin99
05-03-2005, 09:47 AM
I am tempted to do a DIY project using Hi-Vi ribbon tweeters. Hi-Vi drivers are available in Canada from Solen.ca

Solen.. good idea. I always forget about Solen when i think of getting Speakers. Mostly i think because they don't have a real online shopping cart and its somewhat hard to use. I picked up a pair of Dayton Planar/Ribbon tweeters from a guy for $25US a while back so I'm interested in slapping something together with those one of these days too.

Worf101
05-04-2005, 05:53 AM
Really Worf? I've been toying with the idea of ordering some of these to put into a large tower - something like the pics here, but just a standard 3-way...how would you describe the sound?

The price sure is right on the drivers.

The Epicure I have these drivers in has the ceramic, inverted tweet, the smooth 6" main and a 10" passive. They're now being powered by my vintage Akai 1030 receiver. When I want to listen to pure 2 channel... these are the speakers I listen to. I think these drivers would be great in any project. The only thing that concerns me is that since they're not built like conventional drivers, repair or surgery could be far more complicated. I'd go for it personally...

Da Worfster :)

Jon Lane
05-06-2005, 02:17 PM
Hi Ssabripo, and thanks for the kind words. Happy customers make us happy!

I'd also like to say that ssabripo has been a very kind and gracious customer, insofar as we somehow inadvertently shipped him a B-stock 6.1 and are replacing it at our expense as I write this. And may I further say that as a past long-term AudioReview sponsor, The Audio Insider doesn't endorse "shilling" in any way, not here, not anyplace. Nor do we need to.

Ssabripo, if I can help further, please let me know!

Geoffcin
05-06-2005, 02:37 PM
Hi Ssabripo, and thanks for the kind words. Happy customers make us happy!

I'd also like to say that ssabripo has been a very kind and gracious customer, insofar as we somehow inadvertently shipped him a B-stock 6.1 and are replacing it at our expense as I write this. And may I further say that as a past long-term AudioReview sponsor, The Audio Insider doesn't endorse "shilling" in any way, not here, not anyplace. Nor do we need to.

Ssabripo, if I can help further, please let me know!

But I hope after reading the thread in total you can clearly see that nobody EVER put down your customer for liking his speakers. Actually I think what grabbed peoples attention first, at least mine, was how sophisticated the review was. Use of multiple pics, fonts, and animated smiles is NOT a hallmark of a first time poster. It's obvious that besides liking his speakers, the reviewer knows his way around computer code.

kexodusc
05-06-2005, 05:19 PM
Yeah, I gotta admit, with all the talk about internet/factory direct speakers this week, and knowing the quality of drivers in these, I'm anxious to hear some. If anyone in li'l ol' Canada has a pair (or more) lemme know...I'm in most major centers every month, lunch on me!!!

46minaudio
05-07-2005, 05:55 AM
Really Worf? I've been toying with the idea of ordering some of these to put into a large tower - something like the pics here, but just a standard 3-way...how would you describe the sound?

The price sure is right on the drivers.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/mp-3/index.html

Jon Lane
05-07-2005, 03:37 PM
But I hope after reading the thread in total you can clearly see that nobody EVER put down your customer for liking his speakers. Actually I think what grabbed peoples attention first, at least mine, was how sophisticated the review was. Use of multiple pics, fonts, and animated smiles is NOT a hallmark of a first time poster. It's obvious that besides liking his speakers, the reviewer knows his way around computer code.

That's an interesting idea, Geoffcin, however ssabripo probably does what I do and just uses the forum HTML (or whatever its called) to post pics. :)

I know he spent a long time getting comfy with us and the product and it looks like he's happy enough to share, for which we're, naturally, thankful. ;)

abstracta
05-08-2005, 05:40 AM
I'm gonna catch a lot of heat for this post, but I simply had to speak my mind.

First, I'm not accusing the original poster of exagerating or lying. Since I haven't heard the Diva 6.1's I can't comment directly on them. They look great, and likely sound good, but when we start comparing to B&W designs like the 704/804 which ave exellent mid/high end integration, we need to get a reality check.

Here's my problem: the drivers on the on the Diva 6.1 are rather cheap and can be purchased from Parts Express for $300 - retail, for both speakers. The tweeter for instance on the 6.1 is a $12 driver -retail.

Again, I've heard good speakers using these level of parts, but not great ones, and speakers built with drivers in that price class tend to sound dramatically less even and more choppy than the proprietary driver designs that B&W uses, or the best DIY drivers like ScanSpeak, etc.

Which brings me to the conclusion that if the 6.1's can hold their own against the 704's, then B&W is yanking us and I'll buy the parts for the Diva 6.1 tomorrow. I'm not saying it's not the case, but being reasonably skeptical. The dark side of me hope's it's true.

Geoffcin
05-08-2005, 06:27 AM
I'm gonna catch a lot of heat for this post, but I simply had to speak my mind.
.

When the member posted his review to the AR Speaker Discussion Forum, rather than the AR Review section, he invited argument on his contentions. If it's too much for him to bear to hear skepticism, then he's more than welcome to remove the post, and stick with the correct procedure; which is to post his review to the AR review section.

kexodusc
05-08-2005, 07:08 AM
I'm gonna catch a lot of heat for this post, but I simply had to speak my mind.
No heat needed for speaking your mind here, it shows you're thinking.



First, I'm not accusing the original poster of exagerating or lying. Since I haven't heard the Diva 6.1's I can't comment directly on them. They look great, and likely sound good, but when we start comparing to B&W designs like the 704/804 which ave exellent mid/high end integration, we need to get a reality check.

Here's my problem: the drivers on the on the Diva 6.1 are rather cheap and can be purchased from Parts Express for $300 - retail, for both speakers. The tweeter for instance on the 6.1 is a $12 driver -retail.

Again, I've heard good speakers using these level of parts, but not great ones, and speakers built with drivers in that price class tend to sound dramatically less even and more choppy than the proprietary driver designs that B&W uses, or the best DIY drivers like ScanSpeak, etc.

Looks like you've stumbled across something...what exactly is going on here? $300 in drivers doesn't sound like very much, especially in a $1000 speaker like the Swan 6.1...where's the rest of the $1000 at? Lets be conservative and say that they can build the 6.1's for $150 in drivers (actual cost), and another $200 in cabinetry/parts. Probably not even that much, but we'll be generous. The MSRP on these was over $1500 not too long ago as I recall...The original paid around $900 for them. There's a good indication of the markup again.

One of my favorite speakers is the Focus Audio FS-788. It uses the Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter and an excellent 7" Eton woofer. Price wise, it's about $5300 or so. Soundwise, it's a good step up on the excellent B&W Nautilus 803 IMO, another $5000 speaker. These are both two serious speakers in the $5000 range (street price would be lower for both but let's ignore that).
The drivers in the FS-788 would be about $800 to buy from Madisound. An excellent quality crossover would be bring the materials up to $1000 per pair. The beautiful Burr Oak piano finishes and solid cabinetry would be about another $300 in cost. Then you have labor, cost of professional tools, R&D etc to account for...possibly $1700 per speaker. Yet the retail price is over 3 times this.

An experienced DIY-er and I built my towers using a Scan-speak tweeter and Vifa woofers. We spent about $1000 or so in parts. I was very skeptical of what we'd end up with, but he just kept smiling the whole time. My Paradigm Studio 40's were $1100 or so at the time, and I was hoping they'd be as good as those. The Studio's were outmatched in every way. I'll be quite conservative and say I'd have to spend $3000 or $4000 to buy speakers that sound as nice as these (I just wish I didn't finish these with industrial carpet, maybe some day I'll revisit that).. What's more, the 2nd and 3rd designs I built were done for under $250 in parts each, and I ended up replacing my Studio 40's and 20's with a complete HT based on these designs. Crazy to think, eh? Not really. A pair of speakers took me about 10 hours or so of labour. At my salary that would shoot the costs up considerably. And I didn't do any R&D work at all, borrowing on existing designs.

Let's say to chop down on the labor and material costs, you moved operations to China or some other Asian country...you'd save a good chunk right off the bat. This is what Swan, and many others have done. It's allowing them to do 2 things. Sell the drivers to support their core business (Hi-Vi is a driver manufacturer), and use competitive advantages and natural complementary business operations to enter higher margin markets (speaker building).

Suddenly, you've got great sounding speakers in the $1000 range that can afford to sell cheap and still make money while penetrating the market.


Which brings me to the conclusion that if the 6.1's can hold their own against the 704's, then B&W is yanking us and I'll buy the parts for the Diva 6.1 tomorrow. I'm not saying it's not the case, but being reasonably skeptical. The dark side of me hope's it's true

I think comparing the 6.1's to the 804's might be a bit of a stretch, and I suspect even the 704's are probably a step up on these, but don't doubt for one minute these sound better than many other $1500-$2000 speakers. Value wise, I think it's possible they are better than the 704's.

Many driver manufacturers are making the jump to speaker building. Selling drivers became far to competitive with the HT boom, which really saw speaker sales soar. This brought margin's down and put a lot of pressure on smaller companies to concentrate in niche markets, or look for other opportunities. Dynaudio was one of the more recent to abandon selling OEM drivers to the masses, now they build excellent speakers.
Audax is another getting out of the game...you can see their drivers on the Ascend Acoustic speakers (another company that's really making people re-evaluate how much speakers "should" cost).

As the "proprietary drivers'....I'm quite skeptical about this approach. I'm not sure B&W or Paradigm have the capacity to invest as much effort into R&D as some of the larger driver companies. Nor would they have the economies of scale or minimal overhead costs. However, I think they can get close enough that it becomes worth it to them to build their own drivers at higher cost than buying a lower cost driver with mark-up built into it...more control over the production and design can't be a bad thing.

Incidentally, I recently repaired a friends old Paradigm 7SE's. Paradigm wanted to charge me $65 for the Vifa tweeter. Madisound sold the same tweeter for $19. The Paradigm dealer was dumb enough to give me the Vifa model number, and away I went.

I've seen this same trend happen in the subwoofer market too. Companies like Adire Audio, Ascendant, Dayton, and ACI are also selling finished subs to support their driver business (in ACI's case they've made the transition I think). These subs are much, much better than similar priced commercial designs I've heard, to the magnitude of 2 or 3 times in some cases. Going the DIY-route can further this value.

I think this is becoming a trend in audio, as we're seeing the DIY approach grow exponentially thanks to the internet, and more driver manufacturers get in to building their own brand of speakers. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Anytime you have an industry with high margins, competitors flock to it. The natural participants would be driver manufacturers. I think this bodes well for the future if it keeps the traditional companies like B&W in check as far as prices go, and pushes the quality of the product.

thepogue
05-08-2005, 10:31 AM
I'm sure all that DIY stuff is pretty correct as far as doing it much much cheaper...but I'm sure that could be said for any other items - if you build it yourself you can save tons of $$$ but from my perspective that's not even an option. I have 6 tools at home, two you bang wiff, two you cut things with (fingers and the like) and one you measure with and the last I'm not quite sure what it does (last time I used it I held open a door with it and it worked quite well). I can read very well so I guess I could go on-line and download the information I needed to build a set of speakers (or whatever) then go buy the tools I needed. I have no question that it would take me months what it would take a handy person could do in days. I'm also sure I'd have to buy plenty of extra material for the mistakes I'll be making. Now I'd need to take time off of work to get the project done in FY '05 (or '06 or '07) or miss overtime and after 27 years in the fire service...I do get paid fairly well...hmmm...subtract the cost of that...add a pretty large frustration fee....ear plugs for when my wife is carrying-on about how "I don't know what the bleep I'm doing"...a least one trip to the local walk-in clinic for a few stitches...stain remover for the mess Ill make...two pair jeans and 4 tee shirts I'll destroy by staining, bleeding on or ripping...hmm...well...I think @ $1000 they are a steal!!! but I know I'm not the normal guy I'm just one of the few that admit that a DIY would be unwise (for me)....

Just one other I'll point about the Paradigm driver....even I could put that in...so that's a given..but heck...the auto industry is chock full of this type of thing...that's why the aftermarket parts industry is a multi-million $$$ industry..

SO I say....go go go speaker guys....build'em and they will come!!! ;)

Pogue

abstracta
05-08-2005, 06:51 PM
One of my favorite speakers is the Focus Audio FS-788. It uses the Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter and an excellent 7" Eton woofer.

The Scan-Speak driver costs $179.00 and the 7" Etons go for around $130 or more. At least that's the price I paid on the four Eton's I have in my garage right now. I was using them for a DIY 2-way project but gave up because the Eton's die like a shot duck below 130hz. Not sure how you got them to work...{shrug}. Anyways, Scan-Speak build drivers that are amongst the best in the world, while the Diva uses a $12 tweeter. I don't care if you put the Scan-Speak drivers in a styrofoam cooler and secure them with duct tape - they'll sound light-years better than a $12 tweeter, and that's my point. Hi-Vi builds low to barely mid-fi gear, and one of the dominant rules of speaker engineering is that you can save money with labor in China building cabinets, and maybe using a lower end woofer or mid woofer, but tweeters and vocal mid-ranges are purely the result of their build.

ddd


As the "proprietary drivers'....I'm quite skeptical about this approach. I'm not, and lets please stop comparing Paradigm to B&W.



[/QUOTE]

abstracta
05-08-2005, 06:58 PM
One of my favorite speakers is the Focus Audio FS-788. It uses the Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter and an excellent 7" Eton woofer.

The Scan-Speak driver costs $179.00 and the 7" Etons go for around $130 or more. At least that's the price I paid on the four Eton's I have in my garage right now. I was using them for a DIY 2-way project but gave up because the Eton's die like a shot duck below 130hz. Not sure how you got them to work in a two way because of this problem...{shrug}.

Anyways, Scan-Speak build drivers that are amongst the best in the world, Eton isn't exactly Walmart either, while the Diva uses a $12 tweeter. I don't care if you put the Scan-Speak drivers in a styrofoam cooler and secure them with duct tape - they'll sound light-years better than a $12 tweeter, and that's my point. Hi-Vi builds low to barely mid-fi gear, and one of the dominant rules of speaker engineering is that you can save money with labor in China building cabinets, and maybe using a lower end woofer or mid woofer, but tweeters and vocal mid-ranges are purely the result of their build and determine the main character of the speaker. So let me repeat; the Diva 6.1 is using a $12 tweeter and $45 midrange. *If*, and I repeat *IF* they can hold a candle to the B&W's let alone be in the same room with them, then Hi-Vi is selling world class drivers at cost or well below cost, and Scan-Speak is ripping us off.




As the "proprietary drivers'....I'm quite skeptical about this approach. I'm not, and lets please stop comparing Paradigm to B&W.

I have no arguement with DIY'ers building killer speakers that rival if not surpass the big guys. *But*, those really good DIY designs I've heard *all* use Scan-Speak level drivers, or better. They don't use $12 tweeters, and that's my point.

abstracta
05-08-2005, 07:05 PM
I'm sure all that DIY stuff is pretty correct as far as doing it much much cheaper...but I'm sure that could be said for any other items - if you build it yourself you can save tons of $$$

You can build your own box and save a ton of money. You *cannot* "build" your own drivers, and drivers are what I'm concentrating on.

You can make a cheap box out of plywood, put world class drivers in it, and it will sound good. You can build a world class box with Amish slave labor with 50 laquer coats of piano finish, put $12 drivers in it, and it will still sound bad.

thepogue
05-09-2005, 02:57 AM
guess I'll have to return that other tool I just bought from Home Depot...and it looked so simple 18 peices...A lil glue here and there...couple taps of maxwells silver hammer...and blam

oh well....

Pogue

kexodusc
05-09-2005, 03:45 AM
I'm sure all that DIY stuff is pretty correct as far as doing it much much cheaper...but I'm sure that could be said for any other items - if you build it yourself you can save tons of $$$ but from my perspective that's not even an option. I have 6 tools at home, two you bang wiff, two you cut things with (fingers and the like) and one you measure with and the last I'm not quite sure what it does (last time I used it I held open a door with it and it worked quite well). I can read very well so I guess I could go on-line and download the information I needed to build a set of speakers (or whatever) then go buy the tools I needed. I have no question that it would take me months what it would take a handy person could do in days. I'm also sure I'd have to buy plenty of extra material for the mistakes I'll be making. Now I'd need to take time off of work to get the project done in FY '05 (or '06 or '07) or miss overtime and after 27 years in the fire service...I do get paid fairly well...hmmm...subtract the cost of that...add a pretty large frustration fee....ear plugs for when my wife is carrying-on about how "I don't know what the bleep I'm doing"...a least one trip to the local walk-in clinic for a few stitches...stain remover for the mess Ill make...two pair jeans and 4 tee shirts I'll destroy by staining, bleeding on or ripping...hmm...well...I think @ $1000 they are a steal!!! but I know I'm not the normal guy I'm just one of the few that admit that a DIY would be unwise (for me)....

Just one other I'll point about the Paradigm driver....even I could put that in...so that's a given..but heck...the auto industry is chock full of this type of thing...that's why the aftermarket parts industry is a multi-million $$$ industry..

SO I say....go go go speaker guys....build'em and they will come!!! ;)

Pogue

Oh man, that was good. A few years back I WAS that guy...I took a few wood hobby courses and had some really handy (and patient) friends who took me under their wing...owning a home has made it necessary for me too.

You're right though...DIY does require an aweful lot of tools, and some time. If I was to pay myself my salary over the time I spend on a project, the cost benefit would be considerably less. However, as I said, I look at this as a hobby. I love working with wood and electronics, and I'm frequently puttering around when I have free time and I'm not at the gym. I work in investment management, plugging numbers into financial models, economic forecasts, etc, it's nice to work with my hands after staring at numbers and graphs all day. I find it quite relaxing, and then rewarding when all is said and done. Made perfect sense to combine two of my interests.

But not everyone needs a pile of tools or a ton of time to DIY either. There are dozens of excellent kits in various price ranges that can be assembled inside an hour and still over superior value. You can buy pre-fab cabinets that look excellent, and you're then basically assembling a speaker.

I know many people also have more free time on weekends, evenings, etc, than they have extra cash lying around. If this is the case, and you don't mind a project, then DIY can offer a lot of bang for the buck. I couldn't justify buying the Focus Audio FS-788's or 803's buy I could build my own over the course of a few weeks in my spare time.

I also think there's a point where DIY just becomes impractical too, and like anything else, diminishing returns start to apply. That's probably why you don't see many designs costing more than $3000 or $4000.

kexodusc
05-09-2005, 04:25 AM
I have no arguement with DIY'ers building killer speakers that rival if not surpass the big guys. *But*, those really good DIY designs I've heard *all* use Scan-Speak level drivers, or better. They don't use $12 tweeters, and that's my point.

First off, Scan-Speak is really more at the top end of the cheaper drivers in the DIY world, nowhere near being among the best in the world.

Second, your point about the $12 cost of a tweeter in $1000 speaker just isn't a good or relevant point at all. The cost in a lot of tweeters isn't always for superior sound. Quite often it's for a lower Fs so you can mate it with a larger woofer. Good crossover topology can make a $12 tweeter sound better than a $100 tweeter. Easily. Probably not a $200 one, but you get my point. It takes some crossover work which is difficult, but caps and inductors are cheap, Revelator tweeters aren't.

Look at the drivers in the Athena FS speakers I've seen you speak highly off...That might be an $8 tweeter, maybe.

If the only DIY speakers you've heard ALL used Scan-Speak or better drivers (which Scan-Speak drivers by the way, the $12 Scan-Speaks?) then you just haven't heard any good DIY designs. Unfortunate for you. Scan-Speak is just one of many companies that make decent tweetsers. Morel, Dayton, Usher, North Creek, etc, all make excellent, inexpensive tweeters. You don't need an expensive tweeter to get good sound.

And if there was one shortcut I would make in a design, a $12 tweeter crossoved over at 4000Hz that really only handles the last 2 Octaves where the least important information exists would be it. Much better than $4 drivers in a lot of $200-$300 designs. Throw in a series notch filter, maybe pad the tweeter a bit and you can go a long way.

Most $1000-$2000 speakers I know of have $15-$25 tweeters in them, but these are mostly 2-way designs with higher crossover points than a 3-way would likely have. $12 seems more than reasonable at this price point - it wouldn't have to work nearly as hard.

I'm not saying a $12 tweeter is as good as a $200 Scan-speak, but many commercial designs in the $1000 and range use drivers in this ballpark and sound fine.
I've only heard 2 speakers with a $150 -$200 Revelator tweeter in it, but these made the B&W 803's sound broken. I doubt the tweeter in those is anywhere near as expensive.

As for the Eton's in your garage - I feel bad you have $500 worth of drivers sitting there doing nothing. Why did you buy them? What model? I could recommend a few books for you to read so you don't waste these excellent and highly regarded woofers. If not, I'd be interested in buying them since you aren't doing anything with them.

FYI - a lot of DIY-ers do make their own drivers - with good results.

Jon Lane
05-10-2005, 09:33 AM
The drivers on the on the Diva 6.1 are rather cheap and can be purchased from Parts Express for $300 - retail, for both speakers. The tweeter for instance on the 6.1 is a $12 driver -retail.

Again, I've heard good speakers using these level of parts, but not great ones, and speakers built with drivers in that price class tend to sound dramatically less even and more choppy than the proprietary driver designs that B&W uses, or the best DIY drivers like ScanSpeak, etc.

Which brings me to the conclusion that if the 6.1's can hold their own against the 704's, then B&W is yanking us and I'll buy the parts for the Diva 6.1 tomorrow. I'm not saying it's not the case, but being reasonably skeptical. The dark side of me hope's it's true.

Just checked back to see if the thread was still alive and caught this. I won't give away details about competitor's designs, but the notion that Swan drivers are "cheap" is misled.

Swan/HiVi drivers are inexpensive, but are hardly cheap. Frankly, they're way underpriced at PE, at least in my estimation.

The dome tweeter alone is in the same class as the rest of the Danish style 28mm vented Neo/ferrofluid domes. Yes, they're that good. All Swan drivers are drafting-table designs and feature extensive FEA and nearly the best materials and techniques. Swan drivers easily have lowest-in-class distortion, and our sound, we think, demonstrates this.

As far as the premiere B&M brand's drivers, and as far as boutique drivers, there's reams of stuff I could say but won't. ;) Suffice it to say that I'd gladly put the Swans drivers we use up against anything in class and probably anything at five times the cost. The fact that HiVi chooses to sell the raw bits for peanuts is simply no reflection on the relative quality itself. I guess when you're a $300,000,000 company and make parts entirely inhouse, you can go "cheap" if you want. :cool:

Jon Lane
05-10-2005, 09:41 AM
The Scan-Speak driver costs $179.00 and the 7" Etons go for around $130 or more. At least that's the price I paid on the four Eton's I have in my garage right now. I was using them for a DIY 2-way project but gave up because the Eton's die like a shot duck below 130hz. Not sure how you got them to work...{shrug}. Anyways, Scan-Speak build drivers that are amongst the best in the world, while the Diva uses a $12 tweeter. I don't care if you put the Scan-Speak drivers in a styrofoam cooler and secure them with duct tape - they'll sound light-years better than a $12 tweeter, and that's my point. Hi-Vi builds low to barely mid-fi gear, and one of the dominant rules of speaker engineering is that you can save money with labor in China building cabinets, and maybe using a lower end woofer or mid woofer, but tweeters and vocal mid-ranges are purely the result of their build.

With all respect, the speaker industry -- as all of them -- has many secrets...especially the B&M business model and its real expenses, and the inevitable markups in any retail driver or system. Notice I said "driver".

Evidently Swan doesn't play that game.

Let's just say that you might be surprised at what a trip around the factories making many brands would reveal...
:)

ssabripo
05-10-2005, 09:45 AM
Abstracta.....you are somewhat right and somewhat wrong as well. I personally am a huge B&W fan, and always will be....kinda like I am always a bimmer fan (not necessarily because they are the best cars or not, mind you). When I was shopping around for my speakers, I really wanted some B&Ws but they were a little out of my price range....thus I started my investigation with Axiom/Rockets/Swan/paradigm/ etc as my baseline. I increased the budget just to try the bigger drivers, and as I mentioned in my review, the nautilus was the best sounding speaker I have tested thus far.....followed by the B&W 704 and the Swan 6.1s. i made it very clear that the 6.1s sound as good (not necessarily better, but overall equivalent) as the 704s..... now, add the difference in price (one 704 is more than the pair of swans) and you can see the choice was easy.

Part wise, you are also correct, that hi-vi research drivers are somewhat affordable, and that is in no means a testament that they suck....on the contrary, I think they are a pretty awesome bargain for what you get....believe me, i can attest to it.

So, did I or would I say that the swan 6.1 speakers are the best thing since sliced bread? NO, I would not.... but they are probably the best sounding floorstanding speakers under $1000!! if there is a better one out there, then please show it to me... Are they better than B&W? if price is an issue, YES! if you throw price aside, then I would say perhaps not, but it is hard to say...they sound so close.


Ps- Although I am new to this forum, I am an old timer in forums in general, thus my knowledge of the posting techniques! it also helps that I have a masters in Electrical Engineering...http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/kekekegay.gif

RGA
05-10-2005, 09:07 PM
Abstraca

Seriously have you heard the 704 -- I would not be the least bit surprised that many speaker makers could make a vastly superior sounding product for less money. They just are not very good loudspeakers IMO.

kexodusc
05-11-2005, 03:40 AM
I agree with RGA on this one...I really like some B&W speakers but the 704 isn't one of them, not for the pricetag it carries.
And it re-enforces the notion that speaker cost and performance are very poorly correlated at best.