Creating CD's from LP's

[nightflier]

My mother has asked me to record some of her favorite records to CD for her. Many of these are out-of-print rarities and mostly foreign language LP's so I haven't had much luck finding them in CD format elsewhere. Also, these records have not been taken care of as well as I would have liked and have the unpleasant crackle-pop sound. Short of using a computer, which I don't have enough experience with, I was wondering where to start. Specifically,

- What type of CD recorder would you recommed? Most of the reviews of the major brands that carry these (Sony, Harman, etc.) are less than stellar. I'd like a unit I can use in the future for CD dubbing and other recording duties as well, something that will last. So I don't mind paying good money for this component.

- What can I do to minimize the crackles and pops? Is there a component that I can insert between the source and recorder to reduce these distortions?

- My record player has a constant hum that I understand to be caused by the motor of the turntable. I've borroed several record players and they all have this hum, albeit my own player hums the least. Is there any way to reduce the effect of this, short of purchasing a really expensive player?

My budget is sort of limitted for this, so if there are no inexpensive ways to solve these issues, feel free to say so. My record player is a Music Hall MMF1 from a few years back. It is connected to a more modern Harman Kardon 3480 receiver and Polk Audio RTi speakers. I don't currently have a CD writer, only a CD player. Everything is connected together using higher end AudioQuest cables and speaker wire.

[nobody]

Easiest way for me was to get a cheap CD burner. I grabbed an old used Philips single tray burner off ebay for like 50 bucks. Just burn the album one side at a time and then edit the files on your computer. You can get Goldwave for free, and it has filters for pops/clicks and noise and other options and lets you cut the songs into seperate tracks. (many burners have a function to do this automatically, but seldom do they seem to work reliably) Oh...and I use Music CDRWs for the initial burn so I can use the same disc over and over. I just erase it after getting the files on the computer, and then you can use cheap data CDRs to burn the final product onto.

There are old anti-pop/click noise reducation units you can get if you want to avoid the computer editing, but I can't really speak to how wwell they work. I think dbx made a few different types. I'm pretty sure you'd have to go used to pick up any of those units. Try ebay if you wanna go that toute.

Not sure what's up with your hum problem. It shouldn't be like that though. Even a cheap, crappy table should be able to play hum free. But, if it happens with any table you hook up, it sounds like it's not the table, but something else.

Good luck.

[StanleyMuso]

Have you tried grounding the turntable to your amp? My old turn table has a thin wire which is attached to the chasis of the amp. If it is not connected, it hums like crazy.

[royphil345]

I agree with nobody. There are advantages to using a PC with a CD burner for recording. Easy editing / track splitting, free software for click and pop reduction, No "special" music CD-R required.

I've used both a computer with a Soundblaster Audigy sound card and a newer computer with on-board sound and gotten excellent results.

All you need is the correct cables to hook up the output from your phono stage or the tape-outs from your receiver to the line in jack on your computer. Find a good setting for the line in recording level on the Windows Mixer. And this simple recording / track splitting software (older, but works fine on XP) http://home.ripway.com/2005-4/297044/CDWAV162.zip

[nightflier]

My understanding was that this hum was standard. I never noticed it back in the day when I had a record player (1980's), but then I also only cared about how loud it would go and wasn't into clear, good sound. I know that the very expensive record players have motors that are seperate from the platter assembly and that this helps eliminate the hum, but those are just well beyond my budget. And my record player is indeed grounded.

Regarding the CD-RW idea. That's pretty crafty. I was dreading the thought of having to run a cable out the window to the living room downstairs to connect my computer to the stereo. It's been raining, here too, so I didn't like the idea. I'll check out some of those software titles and try them out.

Now the only thing is to get a decent CD burner. What I am most concerned about is that many of the reviewed models have a high failure rate. This would worry me even more if I bought a used model. I also want to be sure that there arent any compatibility problems with the disks. One of the sales reps at the store said I need to use audio-specific disks. If it's all digital anyhow, does that really matter? Can someone recommend any decent units? I have a HK receiver so I was leaning towards their cd writers, but I am worried about quality.

[nobody]

The hum shouldn't be standard. I can't think of what could be causing it off hand, but you should be able to get rid of it. Sounds like when the table changes, you still have hum, so it seems like either it's in the receiver or you have a ground loop hum, something I know little about but that I've heard of others struggling to get rid of. If you co search for ground loop here...<a href="http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html">Vinyl Asylum</a>, you may find some information that helps you. I've seen it discussed there from time to time.

[JoeE SP9]

Try reversing the AC plug on the TT. Excessive hum is something you should not have. If you are using a Grado cartridge that could be the source of your hum. Some TT's have hum when used with Grado's.

[ruadmaa]

My mother has asked me to record some of her favorite records to CD for her. Many of these are out-of-print rarities and mostly foreign language LP's so I haven't had much luck finding them in CD format elsewhere. Also, these records have not been taken care of as well as I would have liked and have the unpleasant crackle-pop sound. Short of using a computer, which I don't have enough experience with, I was wondering where to start. Specifically,

- What type of CD recorder would you recommed? Most of the reviews of the major brands that carry these (Sony, Harman, etc.) are less than stellar. I'd like a unit I can use in the future for CD dubbing and other recording duties as well, something that will last. So I don't mind paying good money for this component.

- What can I do to minimize the crackles and pops? Is there a component that I can insert between the source and recorder to reduce these distortions?

- My record player has a constant hum that I understand to be caused by the motor of the turntable. I've borroed several record players and they all have this hum, albeit my own player hums the least. Is there any way to reduce the effect of this, short of purchasing a really expensive player?

My budget is sort of limitted for this, so if there are no inexpensive ways to solve these issues, feel free to say so. My record player is a Music Hall MMF1 from a few years back. It is connected to a more modern Harman Kardon 3480 receiver and Polk Audio RTi speakers. I don't currently have a CD writer, only a CD player. Everything is connected together using higher end AudioQuest cables and speaker wire.

The hum you are describing is most likely being caused because your turntable needs grounded. Most turntables have a grounding wire that you connect to a grounding screw on your receiver. If you turntable does not have a grounding wire, you can run one from any good metal connection on the turntable to the receiver grounding screw. This should work.

[squeegy200]

This info is helpful

I assume the raw data file from the LP is recorded to your local hard disk. Then using the software, you can clean up background noise, seperate into tracks, then arrange tracks in desired order.
How much hard disk space is required to record a typical LP?

When all is done, then you burn it to CD.
If I intend to recreate a typical music CD at 44.1KHz, do I create an audio CD with RAW data formats?

[royphil345]

The recorder records at 44.1khz 16 bit and saves the recording as a wav file exactly as if you used software to rip the music from a CD.

The file is all ready to put on an audio CD, no conversion necessary. Just the optional track splitting and filtering.

Using the Soundblaster Audigy card, the sound quality was very good. Better than any cassette I've ever made. The on-board sound on my new motherboard also works very well, although on older motherboards the on-board sound can be a little noisy and lifeless.

Hard disk space required is the same as an audio CD. 700MB = 80 min.

[Dave Lindhorst]

Just making a CD is easy. Making a good one is quite another thing.

Probably the best bang for the buck on a burner is the HHB 830 Burnit. Professional quality and durability for about 550.00 US. Consider taking your records to someone who has a really good turntable. As in everthing else, the source is of the utmost importance. Don't go to all the trouble of recording the albums on something not very good. Remember it takes about the same amount of time and effort to do a ho hum job as apposed to a really good job.

Take a look at the HHB I don't know a single person who has not been impressed with this machine. The Canadian Broadcasting Corperation has purchased over 150 of these units for their stations. It only comes in Purple as all professional equipment is color coded for simplicity. Not too fussy about the color but it is definately a standout on a rack.

[nightflier]

...Probably the best bang for the buck on a burner is the HHB 830 Burnit. Professional quality and durability for about 550.00 US...

I noticed that it is SCMS-free. Is that an issue for me at all if I'm using RCA inputs and not digital? Also, is this unit legal in the US, because it is SCMS-free?

[JohnMichael]

Turntable hum may be caused by using an unshielded cartridge. Grados hum in my Rega table but only at the center of the record close to the motor. It was mentioned that the tonearm needs to be grounded. In some odd instances loosening the ground wire will reduce the hum. I have been happy with the recordings I have made with the Sony RCD W500C. I always use the super bit mapping when recording from an analog source. It is also incredibly easy to copy cds. No help with noise reduction of course.

[Dave Lindhorst]

Yes the HHB unit is legal in the States. I can only imagine that because it is not a home audio unit that it is not subject to those rules. Being you are using analog source copying will be a non issue.

Have you looked around for a price and reviews yet?

[dean_martin]

Yes the HHB unit is legal in the States. I can only imagine that because it is not a home audio unit that it is not subject to those rules. Being you are using analog source copying will be a non issue.

Have you looked around for a price and reviews yet?

Here's the HHB unit at one of my favorite online dealers:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/243002/

You should get free shipping.

[nightflier]

Dean,

That is the best price I've seen so far. There were a few on eBay that last few days, and people bid them up to $380, so I guess that's the true value of these. BTW, the reserve was much higher on all of them (I think there were 4), so they never sold and there were a lot of irritated bidders out there. Note to everyone selling stuff on eBay: a reserve price will almost always cut the number of potential buyers by half.

[dean_martin]

Dean,

That is the best price I've seen so far. There were a few on eBay that last few days, and people bid them up to $380, so I guess that's the true value of these. BTW, the reserve was much higher on all of them (I think there were 4), so they never sold and there were a lot of irritated bidders out there. Note to everyone selling stuff on eBay: a reserve price will almost always cut the number of potential buyers by half.

If you have a Guitar Center or other pro sound dealer near by you should be able to see the HHB in person. I usually shop Guitar Center in person and Musician's Friend online (we have guitar players and drummers at home, plus I do a little recording). Both of these places are competitive with their prices and they carry almost the exact same stuff. Many times Guitar Center beats MF's prices even though MF claims it has the absolute lowest prices. I think I've seen the HHB in Guitar Center, but I haven't demoed it. I will next time I'm there.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Now the only thing is to get a decent CD burner. What I am most concerned about is that many of the reviewed models have a high failure rate. This would worry me even more if I bought a used model. I also want to be sure that there arent any compatibility problems with the disks. One of the sales reps at the store said I need to use audio-specific disks. If it's all digital anyhow, does that really matter? Can someone recommend any decent units? I have a HK receiver so I was leaning towards their cd writers, but I am worried about quality.
I use a Pioneer PDR-609 and am extremely happy with it. I employ the same method as Nobody, burn in analog domain from vinyl to a music CD-RW on the Pioneer, then transfer from music CD-RW to data CD-R on my computer. Haven't thought of trying the Goldwave software that Dave mentions, but I think I will now, it is a bit of a pain to monitor the initial transfer to make sure track splits are correct, doing that after words on the computer sounds a lot easier.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

You can get Goldwave for free, and it has filters for pops/clicks and noise and other options and lets you cut the songs into seperate tracks. (many burners have a function to do this automatically, but seldom do they seem to work reliably).

Wow this sounds like something I need. Can you offer up a link?

Thanks

[N. Abstentia]

If you have a Guitar Center or other pro sound dealer near by you should be able to see the HHB in person. I usually shop Guitar Center in person and Musician's Friend online (we have guitar players and drummers at home, plus I do a little recording). Both of these places are competitive with their prices and they carry almost the exact same stuff. Many times Guitar Center beats MF's prices even though MF claims it has the absolute lowest prices. I think I've seen the HHB in Guitar Center, but I haven't demoed it. I will next time I'm there.


Just an FYI..Guitar Center and Musicians Friend are the same company.

[nobody]

Wow this sounds like something I need. Can you offer up a link?

Thanks

Here ya go...

http://www.goldwave.com/

[squeegy200]

I finally setup a machine specifically for doing this task.

I hooked up my PC directly to my Bottlehead Seduction MM Phono Preamp using a Grado Reference Sonata high output cartridge. This was directly connected to the line-in on my PCs Built-in sound interface.

I used the recommended CDWAV mentioned several posts above and it worked very well. I easily cut the tracks, and burned to a CD. I tried it for the first time last night and listened to the newly burned disc in the car on my way to work.

Some remaining issues:
1. I could not get levels adequately set for optimum signal to noise when hooked directly from my phono stage. The line levels on the computer were turned all the way up. But output signal was still well below clipping point.
Therefore, the resulting CD has a bit more background noise than I would prefer.
2. Sound quality using the clone sound processor on my mainboard is quite good. Dynamics and reproduction of frequency response is good enough to be listenable.
3. I am finding that my clone PC does generate some noise of its own. Probably some unshielded component level interference within the case.

Question:For those of you who have extensive experience doing this, is there a soundcard out there that is optimum for this process.

Question: How does GOLDWAV compare to CDWAV?

My next attempt will likely reattach the Phone stage back into my Main Preamp then use the Line-out of the Preamp to increase signal gain to the PC Recorder. Hopefully the addition of another device inline does not increase background noise objectionably.

[nightflier]

My original concern was getting the LP sound to the PC and moving my whole rack to my office (where the PC is) wasn't possible. Of course, now that I read about it, I should just have moved the TT to the office. Oh well...

Guitar Center didn't have the HBB, but they did have a comparable Tascam (Teac) unit for about $50 less. It doesn't have copy protection either, so CD2CD2CD2CD copies are possible. I've only tried this once, so there may be disks out there that will prevent this, but I presume if it worked for one, it should work for all.

The Tascam recorder has changed my life, though. I am now copying all kinds of LP's, even my own. The editing part is still a pain, but I have a whole stack of CD-RW's that I've already done. And since I can't speed the recording part up, I'm actually rediscovering records I hadn't heard in decades. The original Scorpions' Lonesome Crow, for example, is one record I was stunned to find so un-scorpions. Also recorded a greatest hits from my Earth, Wind, & Fire records, and found some much older stuff too: Kingston Trio, Eta James, BB King, as well as foreign LP's: Sidney Bechet, Charles Aznavour, Nana Mouskouri, Lizbeth Lizst, all stuff my mother was listening to when we were infants. 'Sure brings back memories.

The final quality is largely dependent on how much time I want to spend editing and fine tuning things. But then again, I'm not looking for audiophile stuff here. Mom will be listening to most of these in the car anyhow.

The only caveat is that I'm quickly running out of disk space on my hard drive.

[royphil345]

Hi squeegy200,

Did you get to the RECORDING controls in the Windows Audio Mixer? (When viewing the mixer, click "options" then "properties" then select recording.) Just checking.

Depending on the soundcard the "flat" setting for the line-in control will be halfway up or all the way up.

I've used a SoudBlaster Audigy card. The recording level was a bit low, (about the same as the difference between phono and CD on my stereo) but the sound quality was excellent and there was no background noise at all. Now I'm using the built-in C-Media sound on my newer motherboard. The recording level is 99%, sound quality is good, no noise. Very happy with the results using the C-Media. Probably as good as using a separate CD recorder. Wish it was a separate card so I could recommend it to you. Using a cheap sound card or the built-in sound on many systems will often result in too much background noise being picked up. (what made me buy the Audigy) A PC is a horrible environment for audio equipment. A better soundcard has better filtering.

I've used a few different recording programs. There doesn't seem to be a difference in how they record. Your CD-recording software may have one built-in to try. I just use the one on CD-Wave Editor because the track-splitting on that program is so quick and easy (making the program a must) and since it records too, hey why not...

When you hit the record button on CD-Wave, it may help to select your sound card as the source instead of Microsoft Sound Mapper.

Another thought... I have never actually tried hooking my phono stage directly to the computer. Just assumed it would work the same. My computer is connected to the tape-outs on my receiver.

I think that's about all I can think of that may help. Sorry you're having problems. Good luck!!!

[squeegy200]

Yes I was using the Windows mixer to adjust levels.

I will try using the different recorder and see what happens. Thanks!