Martin-Logan Odydssey and Yamaha YPAO Incompatiblity - Can you help?

[transparent]

My Yamaha RX-V2400 quits when I use the automatic Yamaha-Parametric-
Acoustic-Optimizer (YPAO) to setup the speakers. The problem occurs during a frequency sweep, and other speakers do not cause the problem, only the Martin Logan Odysseys.

It is true, that the RX-V2400 is spec'd for a minimum of 6 ohms ouput impedance, and the Odysseys are spec'd for a nominal 4 ohms at lower frequencies, but drops to 1 ohm at 20KHz. It appears that the Yamaha detects the lower impedance at higher freq's and just trips the switch. Yamaha service people reaffirmed that the Rcvr won't drive the 1 ohm, and Martin Logan say "not my problem, the impedance spec is clearly stated".

Is there a service menu for the Yamaha that would let me defeat the overcurrent cutoff, or must I use an external amp? Any other solutions?

[topspeed]

Are you kidding??? Who drives ML Odysseys with a receiver?!? :confused: For Pete's sake, don't defeat the protection circuitry, it's there for a reason! ML's are notoriously hard to drive and you're simply going to have to buy an amp that is up to the task and rated stable at those loads. Not to sound elitist, but with those speakers you really should have an appropriate front end (and a Yammie ain't it).

Break out your wallet, it's time to upgrade.

[old_s13]

I'll be more than happy to take those Martin Logan's off of your hands. :-)

I agree though, using a receiver is just NOT right.

[Florian]

You cant use the big Logans with a Receiver ! Look into Bryston, Meridian, Krell etc...

-Flo

[Geoffcin]

My Yamaha RX-V2400 quits when I use the automatic Yamaha-Parametric-
Acoustic-Optimizer (YPAO) to setup the speakers. The problem occurs during a frequency sweep, and other speakers do not cause the problem, only the Martin Logan Odysseys.

It is true, that the RX-V2400 is spec'd for a minimum of 6 ohms ouput impedance, and the Odysseys are spec'd for a nominal 4 ohms at lower frequencies, but drops to 1 ohm at 20KHz. It appears that the Yamaha detects the lower impedance at higher freq's and just trips the switch. Yamaha service people reaffirmed that the Rcvr won't drive the 1 ohm, and Martin Logan say "not my problem, the impedance spec is clearly stated".

Is there a service menu for the Yamaha that would let me defeat the overcurrent cutoff, or must I use an external amp? Any other solutions?

It's clear that your receiver will not drive the speakers. I use outbord amps on my receiver, it's not very hard to do. I'm wondering who sold you the speakers and didn't reccomend a proper amp.

[hermanv]

I don't know if what I describe below is going on but it MIGHT be.

Martin Logans are a line source not a point source. For a microphone at a given distance, certain midband frequencies will reach from the top or bottom of the ESL membrane at different times than will the sound from middle of the membrane.

The result of this with a swept frequency response is a comb filter, that is to say the microphone will believe that there are a series of peaks and valleys fairly close together in the frequency response.If you receiver is trying to dynamically equalize the ESL panels it will go nuts.

I have had this experience when trying to measure using MLSSA and it took me a little while to realize I could not do near field.

If you set equalization for flat, does the protection circuit kick out when playing music? (The Martin Logans will not need mid band equalizing, the rest of the posts are correct this is a first class speaker (except maybe we could debate the bass response).

[Florian]

Try using a Tact digital room corrector. Works great on my Maggie 3.6's. I am sure it works great on the ML's. you need to set your own target curve and follow the ML one a little bit. dont raise frequecys above 4db since it may overload the surface.

-Flo

[JoeE SP9]

Topspeed said it all. Driving those ML's with a receiver should be a punishable crime.

[Mr Peabody]

This thread interested me because I am familiar with ML's but I don't think I can add anything much of significance after Topper's post, that boy has a way with words sometimes.

What are your other speakers? If they are matching ML's, as they should be, I'm surprised that poor Yamaha hasn't melted into a puddle of goooo.

Seriously, if you didn't want to spend big dollars a used Adcom would drive them, especially if you got one of the 220 wpc amps. www.spearitsound.com has a variety of amps on their "used, demos & specials" link. I haven't looked in a couple days but they usually have some used solid state Conrad Johnson that would be great with the ML's. They did have a big Adcom for about $599.00 but I think it was gone last look. If you do have all ML's, you might consider getting a pre/amp processor and some external power amps for optimum performance from the ML's.

I'd also be interested in hearing how someone ends up driving a $10k, give or take, pair of speakers with a receiver.

[old_s13]

A pair of Marantz MA600 monoblocks would be PERRRRRFECT...

Or, you can also get 4 amps and bi-amp your setup. Get a proper pre-amp and your set.

Or, I will be more than happy to take those ML's off your hands. (haha offer still stands!!!). :-)

[pkmaven]

I agree with everyone....Martin logan fabulous speakers must be driven by an amplifier. Locate a gently used Bryston 4B and you will have no problems. The combo should live together in bliss! The amp has high current, great speed, and will "activate" Martin Logan woofers nicely. P.

[m500]

I having the exact same issue with my MB Quart QL-S830 speaker as well. I guess Yamaha is just not design to drive any power hungry 4 ohm speakers. I just realize I had my volume set to -20 dbs from -87db to get it to play kind of loud but then the bass and treble is distored.

Yamaha RX-V650
MB Quarts QL-S830 4 ohm, 87db, power 110w - 180w

[m500]

My Yamaha RX-V2400 quits when I use the automatic Yamaha-Parametric-
Acoustic-Optimizer (YPAO) to setup the speakers. The problem occurs during a frequency sweep, and other speakers do not cause the problem, only the Martin Logan Odysseys.

It is true, that the RX-V2400 is spec'd for a minimum of 6 ohms ouput impedance, and the Odysseys are spec'd for a nominal 4 ohms at lower frequencies, but drops to 1 ohm at 20KHz. It appears that the Yamaha detects the lower impedance at higher freq's and just trips the switch. Yamaha service people reaffirmed that the Rcvr won't drive the 1 ohm, and Martin Logan say "not my problem, the impedance spec is clearly stated".

Is there a service menu for the Yamaha that would let me defeat the overcurrent cutoff, or must I use an external amp? Any other solutions?

transparent,
I just resolved my issue. The culprit is indeed your Yamaha. Yamaha is design to powered 6 ohm and 8 ohm speaker. The distortion from running 4 ohm speaker is 10 times greater then running speaker design for 6 ohm/8ohm. Also, the way Yamaha/Japanese manufacture(Expert's advise from serveral Hi-end audio store) calculate their RMS is complete different from Hi-End audio componet maker. Their RMS is less then half as powerful. I got my system to turn the entire 180 degree after I took the lost on my brand new Yamaha and bought a NAD C352. Now I can enjoy my music the way both Speaker and the amplifier is designed.

[Mr Peabody]

May I be immature for a moment? I feel vendicated by the testimonials here from former and current Yamaha owners that admit Yamaha can't cut it. Yamaha I'm sure is a fine product in it's own league but there have been many on these forums that have made ridiculous statements that Yamaha is as good as Rotel and many other claims that just aren't true about Yamaha's ability. They must be fooling themselves because I knew better and if any of you that are guilty reading this now I have one thing to say, IN YOUR FACE!

OK, I'm over it now. Please continue.

[GMichael]

Don't be a hater. Do you feel that the Yamaha MX-D1 is also mid-fi? Lets compair apples to apples here.

[Florian]

I agree, the Yamaha may be good in its price class but it sure as heck aint gonna cut it on a ML or any other HIFI entry High End speaker.

Since i dont like Rotel, i cant comment :-)

[Mr Peabody]

I did not imply Yamaha was mid fi. i wouldn't elevate it to that level.

I've seen Rotel drive ML's, the SL-3's to be exact and I have no doubt that Adcom could drive them. I consider these brands amongst mid fi. I've owned some Yamaha in the past. One piece was an expensive integrated and it came no where to performing at the level of the Adcom. I haven't heard every piece Yamaha makes so I will remain open minded but I've heard enough to form my opinion.

[GMichael]

Is it only Yamaha that you hate? Are there other good brands that we should lump into this pile of crap?

[Florian]

Good lord get a grip Michael !!!

Nobody hates Yamaha or Onkyo or Denon etc..
but you just have to see the difference between HIFI and High End. If i owned a Infinitry RS4 or some Polk 7 speaker i would be happy with the Yamaha etc. But if you own a Ml Odysee or a Maggie 1.6 etc... your Yamaha just wont cut the cheesy. I mean, any Onkyo, Denon and Yamaha Receiver would be smoke on my speakers.

They make good stuff for the average user and i owned a Yamaha DVD player at one point too, but using a big ML with a Yamaha Receiver should be a punishable crime.

-Flo

[GMichael]

Easy now. Let's all stay calm. Not everyone has the deep pockets needed for the units you are talking about. Maybe my Acura isn't as fast as your Ferrari, but does mean it's no good at all? Not even mid-fi? I just wanted to find out if it was Yamaha that he felt was lower end, or if it's any receiver under 1k.

[Florian]

Well since we are all calm now, i have to say that the ratings which i partly intoduced in this thread like Mid-Fi, HIFI High End etc... are kinda pointless. I consider the Yamaha good in its price range, but definetly not High End. Its a good unit, but thats about it.

[Mr Peabody]

Let's not be putting words in my mouth here. I said in my post, " I'm sure Yamaha is a fine product in it's own league ". It is a Best Buy brand that competes with JVC, Panasonic & Pioneer. My point that I was trying to make is there are people on this forum who go the other direction with Yamaha and make it something it is not. I believe the problems shown on this particular thread are proof enough to Yamaha's limitations. With that being said, I'm sure none of Yamaha's real competitors can do any better. By boasting untruths about a products abilities could have easily caused this problem of trying to drive high end speakers with a receiver.

[GMichael]

Hi Mr. Peabody,

Thank you for the reply. I'm not sure why anyone would say that the RX-2500 can drive 4 or 2 ohm speakers when it clearly states 6 or 8 ohm only in the manual. It's not meant for that. I thought you were saying that Yamaha as a whole doesn't make anything that will drive them. They do make a nice component amp that is meant for these loads. It may not be as good as some of the units you are used to, but it can get the job done. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

[theaudiohobby]

Please guys stop using HIFI and High End in the same breath, it is annoying, it encapsulates a snobbery culture. :rolleyes: I am fine with big ticket equipment, but please please do not bastardise the term "high fidelity" with snob accolades.

[Woochifer]

May I be immature for a moment? I feel vendicated by the testimonials here from former and current Yamaha owners that admit Yamaha can't cut it. Yamaha I'm sure is a fine product in it's own league but there have been many on these forums that have made ridiculous statements that Yamaha is as good as Rotel and many other claims that just aren't true about Yamaha's ability. They must be fooling themselves because I knew better and if any of you that are guilty reading this now I have one thing to say, IN YOUR FACE!

OK, I'm over it now. Please continue.

Huh? Did someone kick your dog this morning? Yamaha's midlevel multichannel receivers are capable of driving 4 ohm speakers, but only one pair of them at a time. And that's considering only nominal impedance and not extremes such as the 1 ohm dips that you see with the MLs. I don't know about the multichannel Rotel receivers, but I'd be curious as to whether they can handle loads of that magnitude as well, especially with a frequency sweep at the levels used during the Yamaha's auto calibration procedure.

As someone else mentioned, Yamaha also makes the MX-D1, which is a two-channel outboard digital amp that can handle low impedance loads down to 1 ohm, and the RX-Z9 is also rated to handle multiple 4 ohm speakers.

[Woochifer]

Please guys stop using HIFI and High End in the same breath, it is annoying, it encapsulates a snobbery culture. :rolleyes: I am fine with big ticket equipment, but please please do not bastardise the term "high fidelity" with snob accolades.

THANK YOU! All too often, I see subjective sliding scale terminology like that used strictly for purposes of marginalizing and impugning other people's views. It all means something different to different people, and when these labels get arbitrarily applied and diced up like they often do on these boards, it is a pathetic form of snobbery.

[Florian]

Well how about we agree on this.

There are Receivers out there (big Yamaha, Lexicon, Denon 5805 etc..) that can drive the ML. They will work on it, but if you want the best out of your ML you need to get into seperates and also into higher priced regions.

[JoeE SP9]

The question still is; Why would anyone buy speakers like that and try to drive them with one of those crappy underpowered receivers?

[Florian]

The question still is; Why would anyone buy speakers like that and try to drive them with one of those crappy underpowered receivers?
That my good sir is beyond me, since if you can afford the big ML you surely can buy better than that Yamaha

[risabet]

When I bought my small M-L's (Claritys, 1.2 ohm minimum) the dealer, Magnolia, was driving them with a large Denon receiver. Being fairly confident that my setup was better, I got a written right of return within one week if they didn't work out. It has been my experience that non high-end dealers ain't necessarily gonna set-up M-L to sound their best, they do make them look good however. Yamaha won't cut it with the reactive/capacitive load presented by the M-L's, I doubt most receivers will.

[GlenNewdick]

As for your problem you will need a different amp but I Had ML SL3's and drove them with a 60w/ch tube am quite nicely so don't think you need 250w just a good quality amp that can drive into low loads.

[Mr Peabody]

The best sound I ever heard from Martin Logan was with them driven by an Audio Research tube system and a Wadia CD setup. Sounded like a match made in heaven. Although I am a solid state guy, if I owned ML's they would be driven by tubes. I've heard several solid state amps on ML's and none have given them that magic I experienced with the AR system. The accuracy of the sound could easily be debated but the enjoyment was undeniable.