Harman Kardon DVD31 vs. Marantz DV4500 [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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negrobello
04-21-2005, 09:50 AM
I am in the market for the best component video DVD player under $300 because I have a Mitsubishi WS 55859 projection monitor without HDMI/DVI inputs. Have you guys seen any of these in action and if you had to pick one over the other which one? I have had bad experiences with DVD players so the 3 year warranty on the Marantz is very appealing.

LEAFS264
04-21-2005, 11:55 AM
I am in the market for the best component video DVD player under $300 because I have a Mitsubishi WS 55859 projection monitor without HDMI/DVI inputs. Have you guys seen any of these in action and if you had to pick one over the other which one? I have had bad experiences with DVD players so the 3 year warranty on the Marantz is very appealing.


I think Hershon has the HK dvd31, and he has nothing but good things to say about it. I read a few good things about the HK , but nothing about the Mits.

Jay.

hershon
04-21-2005, 12:19 PM
I bought the HK DVD 31 for about $250 including shipping brand new as a "But It Now" option on Ebay. It lists for about $350 retail. To me the sound on it is fantastic for playing CD's- I recommend that you use a fiber optic cable (as opposed to analogue cables) as the sound is better this way for myself personally when connected to a Denon 3801 receiver, DVD-A's (through 6 composite cables) and DVD's (again I connect my DVD picture by component cables) and the DVD picture is excellent as well. It also looks good. I'd definately recommend it. If you do get it, make sure you set up "The DVD settings". I have it on "Adjust on" which means the DVD player is in charge not the receiver.



I think Hershon has the HK dvd31, and he has nothing but good things to say about it. I read a few good things HK , but nothing about the Mits.

Jay.

N. Abstentia
04-21-2005, 04:17 PM
I bought the HK DVD 31 for about $250 including shipping brand new as a "But It Now" option on Ebay. It lists for about $350 retail. To me the sound on it is fantastic for playing CD's- I recommend that you use a fiber optic cable (as opposed to analogue cables) as the sound is better this way for myself personally when connected to a Denon 3801 receiver, DVD-A's (through 6 composite cables) and DVD's (again I connect my DVD picture by component cables) and the DVD picture is excellent as well. It also looks good. I'd definately recommend it. If you do get it, make sure you set up "The DVD settings". I have it on "Adjust on" which means the DVD player is in charge not the receiver.

Suggesting that the digital output sounds better than the analog output means that the HK player actually does NOT sound good, as the digital output bypasses all the audio stages in the HK. I wouldn't recommend it if that's true.

I know for a fact the Marantz sounds phenomenal.

hershon
04-21-2005, 05:59 PM
Again, I repeat like a broken record, if a System sounds better to your ears though technically it shouldn't, trust your ears and go with that system. In the case of the Marantz versus HK 31 DVD player, if the CD sound when HK is played digitally via a fiber optic cable
sounds better than the Marantz sound when played digitally or by analogue, get the HK. If either the Marantz digital or analogue sound sounds better than the HK digital sound get the Marantz.




Suggesting that the digital output sounds better than the analog output means that the HK player actually does NOT sound good, as the digital output bypasses all the audio stages in the HK. I wouldn't recommend it if that's true.

I know for a fact the Marantz sounds phenomenal.

N. Abstentia
04-22-2005, 04:46 PM
Dude, how many times does this have to be explained to you?

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN SOUND BETWEEN TWO PLAYERS WHEN USING THE DIGITAL OUTPUT.

The digital cable bypass ALL audio stages in the player and leaves all decoding and processing to the receiver. A raw digital signal is a raw digital signal. It's either on or off.

Do we need to beat this into your head?? :)

hershon
04-22-2005, 05:08 PM
I ought to know what my ears tell me. Another person here, who I don't wish to draw into this continuous argument, heard the same thing.


Dude, how many times does this have to be explained to you?

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN SOUND BETWEEN TWO PLAYERS WHEN USING THE DIGITAL OUTPUT.

The digital cable bypass ALL audio stages in the player and leaves all decoding and processing to the receiver. A raw digital signal is a raw digital signal. It's either on or off.

Do we need to beat this into your head?? :)

N. Abstentia
04-23-2005, 06:57 AM
I think you just wanted to hear a difference, or you had some settings changed, or you didn't have it hooked up right.

That's like saying a red Dodge Viper drives better than a yellow Dodge Viper. That could happen, but it has nothing to do with the color.

Again, this is NOT my opinion, this is a fact. What do we have to do to make you understand how this works??

hershon
04-23-2005, 07:20 AM
First of all 2 people don't imagine the same thing at the same time. IE, just because you don't like the idea of "Monster Cable" doesn't mean that sometimes it isn't actually better than an ordinary cable. Again for the one billion trillionth time, if all sounds are the same from Optical cable, "Optical Cable" companys would say that for $5 you can make a $10 CD/DVD player sound/look the same as a $5000 CD/DVD player and a $10 DVD player would emphasis the same. 95% of the people who buy DVD players would buy the cheapest possible DVD/CD player over any other brand no matter how many "Roll Royce" features the more expensive system has as you seem to imply, if the sound/picture was equal by optic cable. I have absolutely no vested interest in prefering the sound of optic cable over analogue. Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, and this is my last comment on this here, as there obviously is no way either of us is going to change our opinions.





I think you just wanted to hear a difference, or you had some settings changed, or you didn't have it hooked up right.

That's like saying a red Dodge Viper drives better than a yellow Dodge Viper. That could happen, but it has nothing to do with the color.

Again, this is NOT my opinion, this is a fact. What do we have to do to make you understand how this works??

shokhead
04-23-2005, 08:31 AM
I think you just wanted to hear a difference, or you had some settings changed, or you didn't have it hooked up right.

That's like saying a red Dodge Viper drives better than a yellow Dodge Viper. That could happen, but it has nothing to do with the color.

Again, this is NOT my opinion, this is a fact. What do we have to do to make you understand how this works??

I understand what everybody is saying but i'll trust what i hear most the time. I know that if i heard something that sounded good but shouldnt, well if it sounds good,it must be. Oh,we all know that red is faster,come on. :D

jasmit
04-23-2005, 05:20 PM
Suggesting that the digital output sounds better than the analog output means that the HK player actually does NOT sound good, as the digital output bypasses all the audio stages in the HK.

Far be it from me to add anything to the fray (audio dunce that I am), but, if I'm not mistaken Hershon, what N. Absentia is saying is that the digital signal, as it passes through the HK DVD31, is not acted upon by the DVD31's audio stages. That is the DVD31 is not doing anything to the signal and therefor cannot be given any credit for the resulting sound. I guess it's kinda like when a television video signal passes through a VHS player that is not turned on. If you are getting a good picture, you can't credit the VHS player; it's not doing anything.

That is not the same thing as saying the DVD31 is not a good DVD player. Right?

hershon
04-23-2005, 06:19 PM
No I understand that and I actually like NAsentia who's helped me alot in the past particularly telling me about DVDShrink. What I'm trying to say without even going into the Harmon Kardon, is, if according to alot of the people on this board, I'll acknowledge I'm in the minority, any CD/DVD will sound the same on if played on a $5 DVD player & a $10,000 DVD player if connected to a receiver by fiber optic cable, I still say nonscence.
If that were true, most people would buy the cheapest no name brand around.



Far be it from me to add anything to the fray (audio dunce that I am), but, if I'm not mistaken Hershon, what N. Absentia is saying is that the digital signal, as it passes through the HK DVD31, is not acted upon by the DVD31's audio stages. That is the DVD31 is not doing anything to the signal and therefor cannot be given any credit for the resulting sound. I guess it's kinda like when a television video signal passes through a VHS player that is not turned on. If you are getting a good picture, you can't credit the VHS player; it's not doing anything.

That is not the same thing as saying the DVD31 is not a good DVD player. Right?

LEAFS264
04-23-2005, 06:39 PM
Yes, but Hershon most DVD players DO sound the same. People,like me, buy the expensive DVD players for the Picture display and Connectivity...ie HDMI and DVI that the 5.00 players just don't offer. Most DVD players use a 10 bit video. Some use 12 bit. Mine is a 14 bit. I think you'll find most people will say sound is good in any player reguardless of price. We have been down this road and back again......with no end in sight. The jisst of it is.....your happy, so it doesn't matter what anyone else says about the sound you hear,right!!

Jay

shokhead
04-23-2005, 07:09 PM
So all the players are using the same lasers? If not,wouldnt that count for some sudio difference?

hershon
04-23-2005, 08:45 PM
In regards to the picture quality, I'll be the first to say, I personally don't notice that much difference in the pictures with most DVD players but will be the first to acknowledge, maybe there are visual differences that others can notice. I will say again, that for someone who is going to use their DVD player also as their CD player, sound quality would be a factor and then again, if there was no noticeable difference in the DVD player between a cheap and an expensive one, people would automatically choose the cheaper one. Again, I may be the only person on this board who prefers digital sound from a digital recording. All I know when it came for me to decide what DVD player I was going to buy the reviews for my Harmon Kardon all raved about the sound and I don't think all of these reviewers listened to it through analogue cables instead of fiber optic cables. But again, to each his or her own.

LEAFS264
04-24-2005, 04:46 AM
So all the players are using the same lasers? If not,wouldnt that count for some sudio difference?

Yes, they all use the same lasers.

shokhead
04-24-2005, 06:26 AM
Thats interesting. Hell,i'm going with the $5 DVD player from now on as i dont know why anyone would spend more on one.

LEAFS264
04-24-2005, 01:19 PM
The reason you would buy a more $$$$$ expensive one is because you get better transports and the internals are much better. The 99.00 walmart jobs are not the most trusted quallity wise if you know what I mean. But I guess if you have a to buy a 100.00 one every year for five years and you buy a 500.00 one that lasts five years it's the same.


Jay

N. Abstentia
04-24-2005, 02:45 PM
I have a $59 Panasonic player and a $550 Marantz player. Guess what? They both sound IDTENTICAL when using the digital output.

So why the $550 Marantz? First of all the more expensive player gets me SACD and DVD-A capability. Second of all, when using the ANALOG outputs the Marantz makes that $59 Panny sound like the cheap player it is. The Marantz sounds phenomenal, which then carries back over to the SACD & DVD-A capability, since it's analog.

I also got a smoother transport, perfect picture quality, an isolated chassis, better power supply, better connectors, better power cord (!), and a better user interface.

That's why I didn't buy a "$5 player".

shokhead
04-24-2005, 04:22 PM
Well if a dvd player is better using its analogs then the reciever must be a pile of crap? So its a good reciever and a ok DVD player or the other way around? How much better really is a $2000 DVD player over something like a $299 Yamaha C750? Doesnt sound like its nowhere near $1700 bucks worth.

hershon
04-24-2005, 04:36 PM
I'm not saying your wrong but if you are not playing the $59 DVD player and the Marantz side by side for comparison, how do you know the sound of the Marantz is superior? If a branch falls in an empty forest, does it really make a sound?




I have a $59 Panasonic player and a $550 Marantz player. Guess what? They both sound IDTENTICAL when using the digital output.

So why the $550 Marantz? First of all the more expensive player gets me SACD and DVD-A capability. Second of all, when using the ANALOG outputs the Marantz makes that $59 Panny sound like the cheap player it is. The Marantz sounds phenomenal, which then carries back over to the SACD & DVD-A capability, since it's analog.

I also got a smoother transport, perfect picture quality, an isolated chassis, better power supply, better connectors, better power cord (!), and a better user interface.

That's why I didn't buy a "$5 player".

N. Abstentia
04-24-2005, 08:19 PM
The Marantz and the Panny are about .5" away from each other. Each has it's own input so they can be A/B'd with the push of a button. Both are connected via both analog & digital so the push of another button switches between those. I'd say that's about as good as A/B gets!

Trust me, after spending $550 for the Marantz I A/B'd it with every player I could get my hands on before my 45 day trial was up :)

hershon
04-24-2005, 09:22 PM
I totally appologize here. That's what you get if you have a fifth grade reading level and an Ivy League MBA. I should have read your post better. I stand corrected. I still know you're wrong about DVD players all sounding the same with optic cable, though.


The Marantz and the Panny are about .5" away from each other. Each has it's own input so they can be A/B'd with the push of a button. Both are connected via both analog & digital so the push of another button switches between those. I'd say that's about as good as A/B gets!

Trust me, after spending $550 for the Marantz I A/B'd it with every player I could get my hands on before my 45 day trial was up :)

JeffKnob
04-25-2005, 04:54 AM
I totally appologize here. That's what you get if you have a fifth grade reading level and an Ivy League MBA. I should have read your post better. I stand corrected. I still know you're wrong about DVD players all sounding the same with optic cable, though.

I really wish you could understand how a digital connection worked, then you would realize that what you are saying is impossible. What you are basically saying to people on this board is like telling a physics professor that gravity doesn't exist. I am not denying that you heard a difference but there had to be a difference in the way it was connected. If your JVC was one of the units involved in this comparison there is no telling how JVC decided to connect the DVD unit to the receiver part internally. Maybe you should make a poll on here to see how many people agree with you. If you find that a lot of people disagree with you then maybe you could get off your high horse and listen to these people that have a lot more experience than you.

hershon
04-25-2005, 05:51 AM
"If you find that a lot of people disagree with you then maybe you could get off your high horse and listen to these people that have a lot more experience than you."

Shove it. I'm tired of people like you telling me what I did or didn't hear (or should or shouldn't hear) when you weren't there and I find your attitude totally presumptuous. First of all and this is not meant as a put down of anyone here, your lavish praise of people implying that I am a peon who should take what anyone says here as gospel & bow down to their greatness is so out in left field you're looking at right. While I get good advice from people here, there is also plenty of wrong advice given by your so called "people with experience", too on a variety of subjects. Yes, I've given wrong advice as well. I feel like Christopher Columbus telling you the world is not flat and you refuse to even consider this because you're afraid, poor baby, of going against what your peers say. I repeat for the millionth time, if sound coming from a $5 DVD/CD player is the same as sound coming from a $10,000 player when connected by fiber optic cable, 95% of the people in the world who buy CD/DVD players to play CD's, would buy the $5 player. They do not, because your scientific theory which you think is written in gold, does not hold water but you're not big enough a man to admit this. A somewhat similar analogy is if you were a proficient guitar player who played the notes of a song note by note, of say, "Smoke on the Water" and Ritchie Blackmore (the Deep Purple guitarist who originally played this) was in the next room and played the same exact notes on the same guitar in the same style, a lot of people (who lets say were blindfolded) would still notice a difference & identify Ritchie Blackmore from you. The X's and 0's may still scientifically be the same but there still would be differences. Anyway, I'm not addressing your right to same I'm wrong but you're wording which I think is just a feeble attempt to try to gain favor with people on here at my expense.

LEAFS264
04-25-2005, 06:22 AM
Hershon, People all know that dvd players all sound the same from the Digital connection. Where the difference really is, is in the analog output of the unit. That together with the Better picture quallity and better connectivity and better transports and better power systems and better shielding etc...... Is the Big difference between the 5.00 and 1000.00 players. The Digital output has nothing to do with the price.


Jay

JeffKnob
04-25-2005, 07:32 AM
"If you find that a lot of people disagree with you then maybe you could get off your high horse and listen to these people that have a lot more experience than you."

Shove it. I'm tired of people like you telling me what I did or didn't hear (or should or shouldn't hear) when you weren't there and I find your attitude totally presumptuous. First of all and this is not meant as a put down of anyone here, your lavish praise of people implying that I am a peon who should take what anyone says here as gospel & bow down to their greatness is so out in left field you're looking at right. While I get good advice from people here, there is also plenty of wrong advice give by your so called "people with experience", too on a variety of subjects. Yes, I've given wrong advice as well. I feel like Christopher Columbus telling you the world is not flat and you refuse to even consider this because you're afraid, poor baby, of going against what your peers say. I repeat for the millionth time, if sound coming from a $5 DVD/CD player is the same as sound coming from a $10,000 player when connected by fiber optic cable, 95% of the people in the world who buy CD/DVD players to play CD's, would buy the $5 player. They do not, because your scientific theory which you think is written in gold, does not hold water but you're not big enough a man to admit this. A somewhat similar analogy is if you were a proficient guitar player who played the notes of a song note by note, of say, "Smoke on the Water" and Ritchie Blackmore (the Deep Purple guitarist who originally played this) was in the next room and played the same exact notes on the same guitar in the same style, a lot of people (who lets say were blindfolded) would still notice a difference & identify Ritchie Blackmore from you. The X's and 0's may still scientifically be the same but there still would be differences. Anyway, I'm not addressing your right to same I'm wrong but you're wording which I think is just a feeble attempt to try to gain favor with people on here.

Please excuse me for trying to figure out what isn't right with the situation. I didn't say that you didn't hear a difference. I said that something must not have right for you to have heard a difference. I feel it is something in that JVC unit that caused the difference. If you are going to flame me for trying to help then so be it. I will think twice about trying to ever respond to any of your posts and I am sure other people have already done so.

MCF
04-25-2005, 08:01 AM
Again!!

LEAFS264
04-25-2005, 08:52 AM
Lets try and keep it friendly this time.......

JeffKnob
04-25-2005, 09:16 AM
I have tried to keep it friendly and have said what I wanted to say.

hershon
04-25-2005, 11:45 AM
As long as you or anyone keeps it civil, I've got no problems with anyone saying I'm wrong/they're right etc. What I have a problem with, which is why I got ticked off at you before & JeffKnob, is being referred to as an "idiot" and other condescending words. Yes I admit I responded to you before in kind. I don't mind you telling me I'm wrong etc. as long as its done in a civil non condescending manner.



Hershon, People all know that dvd players all sound the same from the Digital connection. Where the difference really is, is in the analog output of the unit. That together with the Better picture quallity and better connectivity and better transports and better power systems and better shielding etc...... Is the Big difference between the 5.00 and 1000.00 players. The Digital output has nothing to do with the price.


Jay

hershon
04-25-2005, 11:55 AM
"If you find that a lot of people disagree with you then maybe you could get off your high horse and listen to these people that have a lot more experience than you."- JeffKnob Post #24

Sorry I find these words/tone offensive. These are your exact words. So I'm the bad guy for responding that I don't appreciate your language/tone.

As far as I know, I've never responded angrily or with "flames" to anyone who's taken exception to anything I've said as long as they didn't say "I don't know what I'm talking about", "I didn't hear what I heard", etc. Again, I don't have a problem with being told I'm wrong, maybe I am, but it doesn't have to be made into an attack on me.

JeffKnob
04-25-2005, 12:37 PM
As far as I know, I've never responded angrily or with "flames" to anyone who's taken exception to anything I've said as long as they didn't say "I don't know what I'm talking about", "I didn't hear what I heard", etc. Again, I don't have a problem with being told I'm wrong, maybe I am, but it doesn't have to be made into an attack on me.

First off, "Shove it" would be taken as an angry response. Second I have told you on a few occasions that I believe you that you heard what you heard. Please don't play innocent.

LEAFS264
04-25-2005, 12:39 PM
As long as you or anyone keeps it civil, I've got no problems with anyone saying I'm wrong/they're right etc. What I have a problem with, which is why I got ticked off at you before & JeffKnob, is being referred to as an "idiot" and other condescending words. Yes I admit I responded to you before in kind. I don't mind you telling me I'm wrong etc. as long as its done in a civil non condescending manner.


Hershon, I don't think your WRONG. But i do think your right for the wrong reason. I really do think you heard a difference,but not because of the dvd player's digital output.
It just is not possible......so we are trying to help you find the cause of the sound difference. Now that we have ruled out the Digital output....what's next?


Jay

hershon
04-25-2005, 01:15 PM
There's a difference between being the instigator and the person being provoked. In my case, I said "shove it" in regards to the attacking letter, no appologies here. Again, the following wording you posted to me I consider insulting & demeaning and these were your words not mine:
"If you find that a lot of people disagree with you then maybe you could get off your high horse and listen to these people that have a lot more experience than you."

shokhead
04-25-2005, 01:20 PM
Dont forget,hershon isnt the only one there to hear a difference.

JeffKnob
04-25-2005, 01:27 PM
I was just simply making a point that you don't seem to want to listen to what people are saying when they are trying to help you. That is what is frustrating people. It wasn't meant to insult you. I am sorry if I came across that way. Leaf and I are both trying to help you understand the facts and we have both said that we believe you as well.

JeffKnob
04-25-2005, 01:29 PM
Dont forget,hershon isnt the only one there to hear a difference.
It has been established a while ago that I believe Hershon.

shokhead
04-25-2005, 04:55 PM
Lets put this to rest,hershon and a friend heard a difference but as a general rule,there is almost never going to be any difference between DVD audio using the dig out. We can agree on that,right? This has gotten way far from the org question which should be they are both good.

JeffKnob
04-25-2005, 05:57 PM
Lets put this to rest,hershon and a friend heard a difference but as a general rule,there is almost never going to be any difference between DVD audio using the dig out. We can agree on that,right? This has gotten way far from the org question which should be they are both good.

Since that is what I have been saying the whole time, I have no problem with that.

N. Abstentia
04-25-2005, 09:09 PM
[QUOTE=hershon]"If you find that a lot of people disagree with you then maybe you could get off your high horse and listen to these people that have a lot more experience than you."- JeffKnob Post #24

Sorry I find these words/tone offensive. [QUOTE]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but not just 3 weeks ago wasn't your entire home theater experience based on a $399 JVC receiver/amp/dvd player/toaster/alarm clock/juicer all-in-one unit? All he's saying is basically look..there are people here with years and years of experience trying to explain how something basic works and you respond with "that's impossible, it never worked that way and never can".

That's why nobody is helping you any more.

And comparing two different guitarists to two digital signals is asanine. You just can't get any more non-digital than playing a guitar through a tube amp. Digital has two states..on or off. It either gets to the other end of the cable or it doesn't. There is NO in between. There is NO halfway. You can totally alter the sound of a guitar just by turning the volume knob down 1/4 turn. Of course two different guitar players are going to sound different..there are too many variables. That's why I can't sound anything like Eric Clapton just because I have a Strat with a Soldano amp. I'm not Eric Clapton.

However, I CAN make a $100 DVD player sound identical to a $1000 DVD player by using only the digital output. This is because they both pass the same digital signal from the DVD to the processor.

hershon
04-26-2005, 06:18 AM
You sound like George Bush in your post, justifying Iraq saying we're there for 9/11 when that country had nothing to do with 9/11. You know perfectly well that my analogy of Ritchie Blackmore playing guitar and anyone playing the same notes was based on everything else being identical except the performer and not the nonscence you've added.

In regards to my earlier comments of my $399 (actually it was $450) JVC do everything system, I'll stand by my remarks- it sounded better than any high range system I heard at any store (probably due to how poorly the stores had their system set up) & it sounded better than any system I had brought home to try- a Marantz 5400 CD player, an Onkyo CD player, a Denon DVD player, a Denon 2105 Receiver, until I tried my Denon 3801 receiver and Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player.

N. Abstentia
04-26-2005, 06:29 AM
Have you ever heard the saying "he knows just enough to be dangerous"?

It applies here.

cjtalbot
04-26-2005, 07:02 AM
First off I'm just going to state that it is MY belief that all digital transports are NOT created equal, and hence you will get significant variences from digital output to digital output (be that Optical or Coaxial) and from device to device.

To state otherwise assumes that all manufactures use the same components for:

digital output circuitry
laser output strength and integrity (for Toslink)
Phase lock circuitry
digital signal conditioning
digital jitter reduction (BIG ONE)
digitial signal boosting
AC filter applications
Laser read mechs (this being the element most at parity with others)
Signal isolation circuitry

ALL of these aspects must be addressed well before the digital path signal is converted to analog (be that at the device or receiver side). Hence you have a TON of items that can vary from device to device that all effect how a digital path is both read and output..again...well before it hits any kind of DAC.

Yes, digital is always going to be "O"s and "1"s with any device, but how those data streams are first read, processed, conditioned and than output can be night and day.

Thoughts?

negrobello
04-27-2005, 07:18 AM
HK over Marantz?

hershon
04-27-2005, 07:31 AM
HK over Marantz?

Yeah if HK Sounds better Also depends on your budget You can get HK new for $250 What can you get Marantz for? I bought and returned a Marantz 5400 CD player because it sucked. I can't talk about other Marantz models which i haven't heard.

paul_pci
04-27-2005, 09:14 AM
HK over Marantz?

The gist of the ongoing debate for your concern is this: if you plan to hook up your DVD player solely through a digital connection and you are not anal about video quality and you are budget conscious, then go with the cheaper (probably HK) player. If, on the other hand, you are anal about video quality and have a flexible budget, then you want to get an idea of which player will deliver the best PQ and go with that.

shokhead
04-27-2005, 09:17 AM
The gist of the ongoing debate for your concern is this: if you plan to hook up your DVD player solely through a digital connection and you are not anal about video quality and you are budget conscious, then go with the cheaper (probably HK) player. If, on the other hand, you are anal about video quality and have a flexible budget, then you want to get an idea of which player will deliver the best PQ and go with that.

I love it when you talk like that. :)

jimmyb
05-08-2005, 10:46 AM
I use my system mostly for watching movies and whenever possible buy dvd's that are DTS. Which would give higher quality, analog or digital for DTS dvd's? I normally run digital and feel it gives excellant sound but this thread has raised some questions on a subject that I was not even aware of. Also, does anyone have an opinion on dvd formats, DTS, THX, etc..
:confused:

anamorphic96
05-08-2005, 10:54 AM
I use my system mostly for watching movies and whenever possible buy dvd's that are DTS. Which would give higher quality, analog or digital for DTS dvd's? I normally run digital and feel it gives excellant sound but this thread has raised some questions on a subject that I was not even aware of. Also, does anyone have an opinion on dvd formats, DTS, THX, etc..
:confused:

Well to keep it simple you have to use a digital connection for Dolby Digital or DTS. There is no way around this.

The 6ch analog outputs are for SACD or DVD-A.

The other basic left and right analog outputs are for stereo use or hooking the unit up to a basic TV.

If you use the digital out connection all processing happens in the receiver. You have bypassed everything in the DVD player.

Slosh
05-08-2005, 04:13 PM
Well to keep it simple you have to use a digital connection for Dolby Digital or DTS. There is no way around this.

The 6ch analog outputs are for SACD or DVD-A.

The other basic left and right analog outputs are for stereo use or hooking the unit up to a basic TV.

If you use the digital out connection all processing happens in the receiver. You have bypassed everything in the DVD player.
No, most (if not all) universal players also have on-board DD/DTS decoders so if you can get the bass management and time alignment to work well with your speakers you may hear a slight improvement depending on the quality of the DACs vs. the ones in your processor or AV receiver. I figure the manufacturers' thinking was since you need to use the analog outputs anyway there might as well be decoding for all DVD sound formats (although I never heard of a universal with on-board EX/ES decoding).

anamorphic96
05-08-2005, 04:57 PM
No, most (if not all) universal players also have on-board DD/DTS decoders so if you can get the bass management and time alignment to work well with your speakers you may hear a slight improvement depending on the quality of the DACs vs. the ones in your processor or AV receiver. I figure the manufacturers' thinking was since you need to use the analog outputs anyway there might as well be decoding for all DVD sound formats (although I never heard of a universal with on-board EX/ES decoding).

I stand corrected then. But how many people use this method. I'd be willing to bet not to many. The digital connection is the most popular.

N. Abstentia
05-08-2005, 06:01 PM
I use the onboard decoders on my Marantz player simply because it sounds much better. You'd be surprised how many folks actually do this. Another reason I don't use the digital cable is because it's impossible to get SACD or DVD-A from it.

anamorphic96
05-08-2005, 06:47 PM
I disagree. If you where to take a poll you would find most use the digital connection. Ask 100 random HT owners and I would bet more than 75 percent use the digital connection.

shokhead
05-08-2005, 07:47 PM
Thats what i thought but was told on here,no way. Most dont use the dig.

N. Abstentia
05-08-2005, 07:59 PM
I think it does matter who you ask..if you ask 100 newbies or non-tweakers then you will probably get a majority of digital connection users. It's easier and cheaper. You'll probably also notice a trend that shows most of these users have less than $100 invested in their DVD player...or God forbid..an all-in-one system.

However, ask 100 'tekkies' or 100 people who own 10 or more SACD's then your results will be different. You'll find more $500 players in this category as well.

shokhead
05-09-2005, 05:04 AM
I think it does matter who you ask..if you ask 100 newbies or non-tweakers then you will probably get a majority of digital connection users. It's easier and cheaper. You'll probably also notice a trend that shows most of these users have less than $100 invested in their DVD player...or God forbid..an all-in-one system.

However, ask 100 'tekkies' or 100 people who own 10 or more SACD's then your results will be different. You'll find more $500 players in this category as well.

Well lets not bring DVD-A and SACD into this. Just your plain old DVD and cd's and tv. Of course multi-channel people will not use the dig. Thats kinda loading the question so it goes one way.

cjtalbot
05-09-2005, 10:07 AM
I use the onboard decoders on my Marantz player simply because it sounds much better. You'd be surprised how many folks actually do this. Another reason I don't use the digital cable is because it's impossible to get SACD or DVD-A from it.


Nice...

That's good to hear, I just picked up a SR8400 and DV6400. I'll be setting them up this weekend and I'm looking forward to comparing the DTS and DD outputs through both the coax digital and the multi-channel hookups. (dvd side decoding vs. receiver side decoding).

N. Abstentia
05-09-2005, 11:34 AM
Cool, I also have the Marantz 6400. Let us know the results of your tests!

J*E*Cole
05-13-2005, 09:10 PM
Well to get back to the question, I have the HK DVD22 connected to an HK rec. with Monster Lite Speed 200 fiber optic cable. The DVD22 has the same DACs and all as the 31 and I can only say that it looks and sounds terrific. There is noticable improvement over my old dvd player in both picture and sound, and I sometimes play audio cds through it just because it sounds so good. Can't speak for the Marantz, but the HK is worth every penny.

hershon
05-13-2005, 10:49 PM
Well according to alot of people here, not me obviously, they claim that if you connected your previous DVD player by Optic Cable there would be no difference in sound to your current Optic connection. I love my HK 31. Out of curiosity what is the difference in price and features between the 31 and the 22? I basically bought the 31 because every single review I read on Amazon.com,. CNET (I think) and other online sites all praised the 31's sound.

anamorphic96
05-13-2005, 10:49 PM
Keep in mind though with a fiber optic cable you are using the DAC's in the receiver. You will need to use the analogue left and right output to here what the DAC's sound like in the DVD22.

shokhead
05-14-2005, 04:39 AM
Are you sure? :eek: Just kidding. I'd like hershon to try his HK with the analog and see which he perfers. I bet its pretty close as his Denons a few years older but with good Dac's and his HK is newer. I'd try it but thats an all day job easy but i'm pretty sure my Denon would win out over my Sony player. You dont hear to many bragging about the Dac's in there Sony DVD player. I think with hershons Orbs,they are very detailed speaker and would hear any slight difference ,i would think.

anamorphic96
05-14-2005, 07:45 AM
Actually in Hershon's defense he has used the analogue outs and he prefers the digital connection. But im not sure if J E Cole realizes he is using the receivers DAC's and not the DVD players.

Hershon the only difference between the two is the 22 does not have DVD - A. The 22 also retails for 199.00 at your local Circuit City.

hershon
05-14-2005, 09:11 AM
Thanks I knew there was a reason I bought the HK 31 over the 22. I rarely play or buy DVD-A's but I wanted to still have the option to do so which you don't have on the HK 22. I still am puzzled why the optical cable connection sound on my HK 31 is so much better than using analogue outs in regards to plain CD's. The 6 analogue interconnects for the DVD-A on the HK 31 sound excellent though. To clarify for anyone, my biggest dealbreaker/maker in chosing a DVD player for myself is sound (for both DVD's & standard CD's). While the picture on the HK DVD players are excellent, I find the pictures on most progressive scan DVD players are excellent as well, so that was not that great a factor for me. Again, even though alot of people say I can't, I noticed significant differences in sound quality for different DVD players when connected by optical cable which I prefer. Right now the HK 31 produces the best sound for me and was easily worth the $250 investment I paid for it (its retail price is listed at $350). One word of caution though to anyone who has a DVD player, there is a setup menu for the DVD player & if you are not aware of it, the defaults will in all likelyhood affect your sound quality and perhaps cause you to waste endless money on newer speakers & receivers, so I would make sure to check out what you have set up for your DVD player on the menu. Specifically, the default may be that your DVD player controls the sound over your receiver or vice versa & you weren't aware of that, which may drastically change your sound quality. In summary, you will have both a Receiver set up menu and a DVD set up menu and if you have not set this up for both, you could be in trouble.

shokhead
05-14-2005, 03:21 PM
You answered my question,your Denon has the better Dac's.

J*E*Cole
05-14-2005, 07:30 PM
Well according to alot of people here, not me obviously, they claim that if you connected your previous DVD player by Optic Cable there would be no difference in sound to your current Optic connection. I love my HK 31. Out of curiosity what is the difference in price and features between the 31 and the 22? I basically bought the 31 because every single review I read on Amazon.com,. CNET (I think) and other online sites all praised the 31's sound.

I think the 31 can resolve DVD-A and my 22 cannot, but I have to say, I did have my old DVD player (hate to say it but it was an RCA) connected fiber optically too, but the HK STILL blows it away, I don't want to say anyone's a liar, but the HK sure does sound alot better. BTW, I paid $199 at CC mainly because I was completely satisfied with my HK receiver (which BTW would have the same DACs as their DVD players), and because ALL the reviews on their site were also very positive.

hershon
05-14-2005, 09:45 PM
It looks like the only difference betweehn the HK 22 & 31 is DVD-A. If you're not planning to use DVD-A you made a better choice (add on another $100 plus for 6 internect cables for DVD-A). I hardly have any DVD-A & rarely play it but I just wanted to have the option to play them. As I said, the sound on my HK DVD player connected by optic cable blows away any CD or DVD player I've heard & I'm very, very, happy with it.

anamorphic96
05-14-2005, 11:13 PM
Here you go hershon. Thought you might enjoy.

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html

hershon
05-14-2005, 11:51 PM
Thanks for the link to the review This looks like an excellent audio website and I'm glad you let me know of this. What's interesting about the review is that while it said the CD sound was much better than alot of other CD/Universal/DVD players, it didn't say if this was an analogue comparison or a fiber optics comparison, I'm going to try to email them to find out.

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html[/QUOTE]

anamorphic96
05-15-2005, 01:06 AM
Judging from the review he used analoque outputs. I know we have been over this, and we differ in opinion on this matter but using the analogue outputs is the only way to judge the player accurately.

After looking closer he did use analogue connections.

" This allows you to hook the DVD 31 to the multichannel inputs on your preamp-processor or receiver as well as the stereo inputs, which I did."

If he used the digital output he would no longer be judging the HK. He would be listening to the NAD and that would defeat the purpose of the review. ;)

hershon
05-15-2005, 01:14 AM
Your probably right but I emailed the guy who wrote it and hope he responds back for clarification on this and the fiber optics question. I'm going to spend tommorow on that web site as it looks like a great site. Thanks.

anamorphic96
05-18-2005, 04:50 PM
May 16, 2005

I have the Harman Kardon DVD 31 DVD/CD player that you reviewed, and I love it. I bought this unit mainly for its CD sound. I play the HK, which I got for $250 online, by connecting it with a fiber-optic cable to my Denon 3801 receiver, which is connected to my six Orb Audio speakers and subwoofer, which are the best speakers and subwoofer I've heard.

The reason I'm writing you is that I read your excellent and very well-written review of the Harman Kardon DVD 31. I have one question that hopefully will resolve a major argument I am having with people on an online forum. Q: Did you listen to CDs via a fiber-optic connection or the analog outputs?

The reason I'm asking is that my sound is so much better with the fiber-optic cable than an analog outs, but people on the board keep maintaining that the sound of a $35 DVD player will sound the same as a $10,000 DVD player, ad infinitum, when connected by fiber-optic cable because it's just reading ones and zeroes. I maintain this is nonsense, and I am using the sound of my HK DVD 31 as proof.

Phil Hershon

A: By using a fiber-optic digital cable and connecting the DVD 31 directly to your Denon receiver, you are actually bypassing the DVD 31's analog stage and using the player as a transport. When using any player as a transport, you are relying on the digital-to-analog conversion to be done somewhere else. In your case, it's happening in the Denon receiver, with the digital stream being passed along by the fiber-optic cable. As for this sounding better than the DVD 31's own analog stage, that's quite possible. Denon is well-known for making some accomplished digital gear.

As for your next question, about whether a $35 DVD player will sound as good as a $10,000 one in the configuration that you're talking about, this topic has actually been batted around audiophile circles for years. On the one hand are the people who say that bits are bits and any transport will perform as well as another as long as it's operating properly. Others, however, find profound differences.

As for the bit-and-bits crowd, the argument falls apart when you compare transports and find that not all sound the same. There's more to it than just saying all the ones and zeroes transfer the same. That logic may work for computer hard drives, which aren't as time sensitive as CD playback, but there's more to it when you're trying to reproduce topnotch sound. I've done the experiment many times; hence, I don't use a $35 DVD player as a transport. On the other hand, you don't have to spend exorbitant amounts of money to get fine performance from a transport.

What you have going appears to satisfy you, and that's what's important. What's also important is that you don't just believe what others say. Some people get blinded by the world of digital and think everything sounds the same when, in fact, the discrepancies between pieces of digital gear are just as great as those between analog products.

...Doug Schneider

He at least admits there could be differences in transports. Which could account for the differences you hearing in the HK. Maybe the HK is doing something subtley different in it's digital output.

N. Abstentia
05-18-2005, 06:26 PM
May 16, 2005

He at least admits there could be differences in transports. Which could account for the differences you hearing in the HK. Maybe the HK is doing something subtley different in it's digital output.

I seriously doubt it. Keep in mind that the innards of that player are manufactured by Company X, who then sends them to 20-25 other companies who put their brand name on them. You'd probably be surprised at how many players on the market are the exact same thing as the H/K once you pop the lid.

I'm not saying that transports can't be different, but not in this price range.

shokhead
05-18-2005, 07:03 PM
And you know this for sure how about the HK's transport?

anamorphic96
05-18-2005, 07:39 PM
I seriously doubt it. Keep in mind that the innards of that player are manufactured by Company X, who then sends them to 20-25 other companies who put their brand name on them. You'd probably be surprised at how many players on the market are the exact same thing as the H/K once you pop the lid.

I'm not saying that transports can't be different, but not in this price range.

You never know. I have seen and heard stranger things.

Subtle things can sometimes change things in the end.

N. Abstentia
05-18-2005, 08:05 PM
HK does NOT make every part in their DVD players themselves. It's a budget line.

There's probably 1-2 companies who make the transports for all DVD players that exist. Another one makes optical pickups. One more makes power supplies. How many actual companies there are I have no idea.

I remember going to a 'boutique' audio shop a while back and under a glass display they had a $99 Toshiba DVD player and a $399 Denon...both with the lids off. Guess what? Identical innards. I actually found that very odd, as I'm sure they could make more money off the Denon.

shokhead
05-19-2005, 04:57 AM
HK does NOT make every part in their DVD players themselves. It's a budget line.

There's probably 1-2 companies who make the transports for all DVD players that exist. Another one makes optical pickups. One more makes power supplies. How many actual companies there are I have no idea.

I remember going to a 'boutique' audio shop a while back and under a glass display they had a $99 Toshiba DVD player and a $399 Denon...both with the lids off. Guess what? Identical innards. I actually found that very odd, as I'm sure they could make more money off the Denon.

I'm not questioning you{well maybe} but when you use probably and i have no idea,then maybe we are not sure? You consider HK a budget line,i dont. Is that difference from your budget or mine?

shokhead
05-19-2005, 05:09 AM
I'd like to see how others place brands. For me i put HK and Marantz a click infront of in no order,Denon,Yamaha,Sony,Pioneer,Onkyo as far as Receivers and DVD players and a click below those JVC and Kenwood and i'm not saying those are crap but there mid to low end isnt as good as the others mid to low end and i might have this all screwed up but its only imo.

N. Abstentia
05-19-2005, 08:07 AM
LOL! Yes H/K is a budget priced line of equipment. You think a $199 DVD changer is expensive? You might want to shop around at some high end shops!

shokhead
05-19-2005, 09:14 AM
I dont do high end shops,out of my price range and i'm not the type to buy something i should'nt have to impress others.

jasmit
05-19-2005, 07:04 PM
Here's a link (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=122#Teac%20EsotericUX-1%20(Component)) to a recent DVD benchtest of several players, including the DVD31. The focus in this one was on video performance.