Getting back in the game - Please help

[legmaker]

I will attempt to make this short. There are only 2 high end companies in my area.
Company A = Pioneer Elite Plasma, Elite Recievers, Elite DVD/ CD Players coupled with Boston Accoustics speakers.

company B = Fugitstu Plasma, Denon Rec, DVD/Cd players with Definative Tech speakers.

I have been out of the AV game for about 13 years (college days) and I'm now very overwhelmed with the choices. I feel like I need the pros to hook up my new house so I know I'm going to end up paying one of these companies to do the work. (unless someone can point me in the direction of a home theater for reasonably educated dummies).

All opinions are welcome.

thank you

[edtyct]

I will attempt to make this short. There are only 2 high end companies in my area.
Company A = Pioneer Elite Plasma, Elite Recievers, Elite DVD/ CD Players coupled with Boston Accoustics speakers.

company B = Fugitstu Plasma, Denon Rec, DVD/Cd players with Definative Tech speakers.

I have been out of the AV game for about 13 years (college days) and I'm now very overwhelmed with the choices. I feel like I need the pros to hook up my new house so I know I'm going to end up paying one of these companies to do the work. (unless someone can point me in the direction of a home theater for reasonably educated dummies).

All opinions are welcome.

thank you
Here's one man's opinion. Neither high-end company has a tremendous advantage over the other. That said, however, the PQ of the Pioneer Pro Elite plasmas is at the top of the heap, along with Panasonic's. I would give it the edge over the Fujitsu in scaling, color, and black level (despite the fact that Fujitsu sources its glass from Panasonic). Both Pioneer and Fujitsu are pricey. If I recall correctly, Futjitsu, which used to be the major player in plasma, is getting out of the game altogether.

Even though Denon is really the foremost maker of DVD players--at least after a certain price point and when sound quality is in the mix--most DVD players these days do a serviceable job so far as video is concerned. One DVD feature that may have a positive effect when it comes to plasma is digital video output (HDMI/DVI). Though it's by no means an imperative, since component is rarely far behind and in some cases even looks better, a well-executed digital connection can cut down on the inherent noisiness of plasma. The low-end Pioneer DVD player with HDMI, however, is not recommended. If you can afford the new Denon 5910, not only are you a better man than I; you also stand to get the best image quality under the sun, until HD arrives. Denon's DVD players begin to step up in every respect at the 2910, which may be a seriously cost-effective alternative to the 3910. The Pioneer Elites are also generally well-regarded.

I'm not familiar with the Def Techs or Boston lines these days to give a valid opinion, But when money is involved, and only two manufacturers at this point are in the running, you would do well to listen to and research both, regardless of people's recommendations. I will say, however, that Def Techs seem to get an inordinate share of high praise.

Ed

[topspeed]

I'm unclear why you have to buy packages from each dealer? Can't you buy the Pio from Dealer A and the Denon from Dealer B? As far as speakers go, it's so subjective that only you can make the right decision there. Something to keep in mind with the DefTech's tho, they are bi-polar designs (except for the PowerMonitors) and will require considerably more attention to placement and need to be well out from room boundries. If you have WAF issues or not a lot of space, this could be a deal killer.

Hope this helps.

[Glen B]

Legmaker, how about including the city and/or state where you live in your profile so we can at least have an idea what "area" you are talking about.

[legmaker]

[QUOTE=Glen B]Legmaker, how about including the city and/or state where you live in your profile so we can at least have an idea what "area" you are talking about.[/QUOTE

Sorry,
I'm in Ann Arbor Michigan. And I may just do what one of you suggested. Right now, I'm leaning toward the Pioneer plasma, with the Denon rec, (3805) and DVD/CD (2910) or possibly a 5 disk changer and the Def Techs on the floor and the surrounds in the wall/ceiling.

There is nothing wrong with buying at different dealers, however they have both quoted "package prices" including the wiring, install, and set up. I get the feeling if they are only doing 1/2 the job, the price goes up and their attention to my system goes down.

I would not mind doing the set up myself, but I've been out of the game so long that I feel like I need the pros to get it right. Am I right or wrong? Could I do as good of job with the "self install" Is there a step by step manual that I can follow? I'm not afraid of doing the work and saving some money. I just want it to be correct. I'd hate to spend the $$ and hook it up and have it sound and or look bad because of my amateur skills.

Thanks

[edtyct]

Legmaker,

Are you just worried about connecting the wires/cables and such, or are you concerned about mounting the plasma on the wall and hiding the cables? Depending on the level of carpentry involved and where you intend to put the plasma, it might well be helpful to have someone do the work if you don't have good DIY skills. I've mounted a plasma on the wall; it's necessary to have another strong person around at least to help lift it. If connecting the dots, leaving the wiring more or less in the room, and placing the plasma on a stand is the long and short of it, the manuals that come with the components should suffice. As Topspeed (the drummer) said, the Def Techs and subwoofer may take a little experimenting to get the sound right, but that part can be loads of fun.

Ed

[topspeed]

As Ed (the other drummer) mentioned, if you aren't planning on going in-wall with the wiring, it's not that hard to do. That said, the manual from Denon is truly cryptic in nature and unless you have your decoder ring from the last box of Cracker Jacks you ate, it can appear pretty daunting. Crutchfield has this excellent HT install guide (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ZbEoK94QmiN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=16600&I=8286AVREF5) that comes with something that I found to be truly invaluable: Cable Labels. These are stickers you put on the menagerie of cables you have to deal with and makes life infinitely easier, trust me on this. If you need to buy mounting brackets for either your plasma or surrounds, Crutchfield has some nice ones and they'll throw in the HT guide for free or you can buy it separately.

Audio is, for most people here, a hobby. What that means is we are always striving to learn something new. Coming from a long history of 2 channel separates, the first first time I glanced over the back panel of an AVR, I nearly went into cardiac arrest. However, after some deep breaths (and a couple of glasses of wine) I realized that it wasn't nearly as complex as it initially appeared. There are plenty of resources readily at your disposal, such as this website. I also think you will derive a certain sense of satisfaction from installing the rig yourself. Don't worry about whether or not it sounds right because the only one it should sound "right" to is you. Remember, every pro started as an amateur. The progression is the fun part!

Hope this helps.

[legmaker]

Thank you to the drummers. Actually the carpentry skills to me are the easy part. I'm not afraid to cut holes in my walls and run speaker wire. When I spoke about letting the pros handle the job, I was speaking more about setting up the colors on the plasma, tuning the surround sound, subwoofers, crossovers, etc, etc. Those are the things I fear that I may do wrong. I would then be a bit embarrassed to call the pros and say, "I bought this over hear, and this thing on-line, and purchased this from Best Buy, now can you help make it work?" I feel the true home audio dealers would be offended and rather reluctant to help me should I botch the whole thing.

[edtyct]

Legmaker, some of the people on this board (including the other drummer, even though, as a drummer, he can't hear anything) are very competent with issues of audio setup. I'm willing to bet that you could save yourself some expense by setting audio levels yourself, with help or confirmation as needed, which would also be a good way to get back in the saddle and attack the learning curve. If you can get your ears, brain, and body to do the job, and realize that it's not so forbidding as you may have thought, you won't always be at a loss about how to troubleshoot the system yourself.

So far as video is concerned, we can easily help you to manage the plasma's connections and colors. Then you could have the option of getting a test disk (AVIA or DVE) to finetune the picture further or even get an ISF technician to take it the extra mile that you can't run yourself (greyscale and color temperature) if you're so inclined (and flush).

Also, I don't know which stores are involved, but a significant purchase like the one that you are about to make should entitle you to a question or two. It shouldn't be any skin off their back to answer you, and most mid- to high-fi dealers know that relationship with their customers is their strong suit. But I'm sure that once you have everything out of the box, wired, and in place (at least provisionally), you will be more than equipped to take care of everything else--and help will just be fingertips away when you need it. I'll bet many of the people here will agree with me that setup is not only a great way to learn about audio/video, but it's also a gas. You are going to be one happy camper.

Ed

[LEAFS264]

For what it's worth, I've got a Pioneer Elite AV-59AVI and I have found that after looking at the denon 3910 and my 59avi , the picture is pretty much the same on both....which is very good. I don't think you can go wrong. But I think the Pionner is a bit cheeper than the 3910.

Jay

[legmaker]

Ed,
Maybe that bit of encouragement is all I needed. I think you're right. I do enjoy the setup and lots of times I'd rather be the one who is cutting the holes in my walls. So that is the route I've decided to take. I'm going to purchase the components I like thus far and tackle it myself.

So my last question till my home is finished in a couple of weeks. Can anyone recommend a decent "home theatre / A V for dummies " type of book.? I've read lots of reviews on components and have decided pretty much what I like thus far.

So now my questions are more related to speaker placement and running lines. Do I need conduit?. How far should I stay away from other sources of interference? What gauge wire for certain lenght runs? Those sort of things are what I've forgotten in my years out of the hobby. Thanks to you all. I think I've found some friends here.
Chris

[legmaker]

For what it's worth, I've got a Pioneer Elite AV-59AVI and I have found that after looking at the denon 3910 and my 59avi , the picture is pretty much the same on both....which is very good. I don't think you can go wrong. But I think the Pionner is a bit cheeper than the 3910.

Jay


Thanks Jay,
When listening and watching the Denon vs. the Pioneer Elites in both the receivers and the DVD/CD players I enjoy them both. The problem around here is that I can't find a dealer who has both and can turn one off and turn the other one on, so that I can do a side by side. Maybe that means if I can't tell the difference a day or so apart, then I won't tell the difference at home either.

All input is appreciated. Thanks again

[edtyct]

Chris,

I have a feeling that you ain't no dummy (the college comment tipped me off), so I'll recommend a book written by one of the true stalwarts of home audio/video, Robert Harley's, Guide to High End Audio, which at least Music Direct is selling right now. It will deal with a lot of your basic questions about wire and setup. I don't remember whether the 2d edition delves deeply into home theater per se. Even if it doesn't, what it has to say about two-channel stereo will help. In the meantime, while I try to come up with another book, or maybe someone else will, you can check Harley's book out. Here's the blurb from Music Direct's site:

"The Complete Guide to High-End Audio is widely acknowledged as the definitive reference on high-quality music reproduction. It covers every aspect of home audio, including how to listen critically, how to choose a system, how to set up and “tweak” a system for maximum performance, room acoustics, digital audio, LP playback, and audio for home theater. The book’s thoughtful layout makes it accessible to newcomers, yet is a reference for even the most seasoned enthusiast—the information moves from basic to advanced in each chapter, allowing the new reader to skip to the next chapter when he’s reached his comfort level. The book’s extensive table of contents, massive and highly detailed index, and 550+ term glossary make The Complete Guide to High-End Audio the ultimate reference on high-performance audio systems. The best part is Robert Harley’s ability to describe technology in a way that anyone can understand. He really does de-mystify the high-end. Our highest recommendation."

As far as wiring is concerned, many companies are now offering wonderful flat flexible cables for surround speakers, or even for mains and center, that are incredibly easy to use and shielded sufficiently for fairly long runs--not at all like the firehoses that people always accused me of running around my rooms. This is a complicated issue to discuss in one place, but as you come up with specific questions, the answers should be forthcoming.

Ed

[edtyct]

As I live and breathe, a Home Theater for Dummies book does exist, and if the six people on Amazon.com are to be believed, it's pretty helpful. It's also affordable. Harley wrote a book called Home Theater for Everyone four years or so ago that doesn't appear to have been as well received among novices. It also seems hard to get and probably dated, to some extent, in 2005. Maybe Home Theater for Dummies is the way to go. You can probably get more information about it at Amazon or elsewhere on the web.
Ed

[JoeE SP9]

Maybe I'm way off here but Denon and Pioneer Elite are not high end to me. Krell, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Mark Levinson and Macintosh are high end. Accuphase is one of the very few Japanese companies that actually sells high end gear in the US. Maybe I'm old school or reactionary but since when are receivers high end? OK, maybe some are higher end in comparison to "mid-fi" receivers.

[legmaker]

thanks ed. I'll check out those books.

Joe- I know there are insane systems out there. My novice definition of "high-end" meant stuff that you usually wouldn't buy from a department store or Best Buy. Maybe my vocabulary needs a tune up as well. After all it has been 13 years since my last serious Hi-fi purchase. Next time I'll say, "not crap" or "not wal-mart" instead of "high-end" if that would please you.

[edtyct]

Yeah, but for the longest time, the audio high end hid from home theater as if it were the plague. Krell got in on it earlier than some of the other companies, but many of them resisted until recently, and others still haven't shown up or couldn't adapt. I've owned and loved my share of Conrad-Johnson, Audio Research, and other high-end audio-only equipment over the years, but the truth is that many (not all) of the HT receivers available these days are pretty damn good--something that couldn't be said for a long time after the solid-state revolution. The separates are, too, but the law of diminishing returns for investment definitely applies more than ever. For two-channel music, the dedicated, often expensive audio system still has its advantages, if all of the components are up to snuff. But the HT receiver or preamp/processor-amp combination can deliver a very satisfying experience these days on either front. The Arcam receiver, for one, may well rate as a high-end component, as well as the big Rotel. Neither breaks the bank, relatively speaking. Even if you can't afford multi-thousand dollar gear, you can still get some really good stuff if you do your homework. Home theater has opened up the market, and stimulated competition in a way that even the ultra high end has had to notice. "High end" can be a mere semantic catchphrase for luxury items or a nostalgic reference to days gone by when buying decisons were a lot simpler. Component for component, however, in many respects, these are the golden days of audio/video, if complicated and turbulent ones. The distance in quality between relatively affordable, solid performers and hideously expensive ones (which, admittedly, can sound/look utterly spectacular and show an extraordinary attention to detail) is real but not like the days before HT.

There has always been some resistance to the idea that "high end" applies only to components that cost a lot and are made by cottage industries (witness the Sensible Sound or the Audio Cheapskate). Those that perform well at lower price points also qualify, and if they happen to be Denons or Pioneers, then so be it. No one can convince me that the Denon 5910 DVD player with its Silicon Optix chip isn't a high-end component, nor that the 2910 isn't worthy of serious consideration too, though not as well appointed or flawless. I would also be so bold as to say that the Pioneer Laserdisc players that I owned throughout the '80s qualified as high end as well. Who besides Theta made anything remotely as good? End of rant.

Ed

[topspeed]

So now my questions are more related to speaker placement and running lines. Do I need conduit? Depends on your install. Speaker placement is a bit trickier as every room is different. Some basic rules of thumb are:
1) Place the mains in an equilateral triangle from your listening position. Most manufacturers recommend at least 8' apart, but don't take that as gospel. Again, it depends on your room and manytimes, WAF. Some people like to toe-in the speakers, some don't. Tweak to your heart's (and ear's) content until you have a nice, stable center image.

2) Make sure each speaker isn't equidistant from the back and side walls. This will aid in cutting down out of phase waves.

3) The center should be above/below the screen/monitor as this is where the majority of dialogue will be coming from.

4) Dolby recommends the surrounds be just behind the listening position, but again, don't take this as gospel.

5) Sub placement is a whole 'nother ball game. The easiest way to find the best place is to put the sub in the listening position and then crawl around the room until you find the place it sounds best. Do you look stupid? Of course, that's where the alcohol comes in ;). Remember, this is supposed to be fun! Do a search on this website for Richard Greene and prepare to be enlightened. His information on room nodes and standing waves should be required reading for anyone remotely interested in clean bass. Eventually, you may even want to consider an eq such as the Behringer Feedback Destroyer that many members here use to great effect, but we'll worry about that later.
How far should I stay away from other sources of interference?Obviously, you're married otherwise you would have figured this one out by now :). J/K. When running your wires through the walls, use common sense and don't cross them over electrical conduits, etc.
What gauge wire for certain lenght runs? There's actually a chart for this but for the life of me I can't find it. Bottom line, I'd use 12 gauge minimum, especially for long runs to the surrounds. If you want a really clean install, you might consider these Niles plates. (http://www.nilesaudio.com/products/sacobj.html) They accept banana plugs and are very discrete.

Welcome aboard and let us know how it works out.

[JoeE SP9]

thanks ed. I'll check out those books.

Joe- I know there are insane systems out there. My novice definition of "high-end" meant stuff that you usually wouldn't buy from a department store or Best Buy. Maybe my vocabulary needs a tune up as well. After all it has been 13 years since my last serious Hi-fi purchase. Next time I'll say, "not crap" or "not wal-mart" instead of "high-end" if that would please you.
No offense intended. Please excuse my seeming knee jerk reaction. I suppose my feelings are colored by the fact that I have never owned a receiver. I must admit I have heard some pretty decent receiver based systems. Most receivers just don't seem to have the kind of power needed for the majority of speakers I like. Magnepan being one of the major offenders in this area. I know there are some out there who are using a receiver to push some maggy's quite nicely. I just haven't talked to anyone who was satisfied with receiver watts for them. Although my rig is quite elaborate it is primarily a 2 channel system for music. I have been looking into a decent processor to replace my old one. I just don't want to give up my ARC SP9

[edtyct]

Boy, I hear you on the power problem. A good number of receivers are unable to handle 4 ohm loads, especially from five speakers. But some of them can.

Joe, please forgive my rant. It wasn't directed at you; it was just a late night, possibly ill-advised soliloquy on the state of the high end from one person's perspective. Nor did I intend to diminish the importance of making high-end distinctions, just to open up the values a little bit. By the way, I had an ARC SP14 and a Conrad-Johnson PV-9 that I was simply wild about. Why in heaven's name don't I have them anymore? Oh yeah, home theater.

Ed

[legmaker]

Joe,
No offense taken here at all either. I know there is some wild stuff out there. (and I would love to have it!!!) But, alas, I deal with WAF as well as children who will one day need an education. I have already started my secret slush fund that will help pay for my "better than average" - end equipment. Thanks again.