Madisound kits vs. Parts Express [DIY]

[vr6ofpain]

I was considering buying the Dayton Audio BR-1 bookshelf speaker kit to replace some old infinity's in my surround setup.

Now I'm thinking of moving my stereo rig 'shelves to my surround system and picking these up to replace them:

http://www.madisound.com/vifastudio.html

anyone have any experience with Madisound kits? They actually assemble the crossovers for you, so they would be even quicker to assemble. I like the fact that these setup uses a passive radiator instead of a port. I really appareciate the sound of both my subwoofer, which uses a p.r. and a buddies Mackie monitors, which also use a p.r. Also they incorporate a ring radiator tweeter, which I have also read good things about.

http://www.madisound.com/images/studiophoto.jpg

http://www.madisound.com/images/VIFA_STUDIO_B.jpg

[yogo]

That looks like that the same tweeter used in the Onyx Rocket line.

If so, it could be a partial point of reference for the Madisound speaker performance.
The Rocket RS250 uses a Viva Ring Radiator and lists for $700 US for a comparable model..

http://www.audioreview.com/Floorstanding%20Speakers/ONIX/PRD_300005_1594crx.aspx

[kexodusc]

The BR-1 is a great starter kit, but those Vifa drivers will smoke it...keep in mind you're paying double though (without cabinets). I'd expect the Vifa monitors to easily compete with most $1000-$2000 speakers, the PL14WJ09 woofer is extremely popular and I've heard it in many different designs now.
Yogo's Rocket RS250 comparison isn't quite accurate...that's just a standard ring radiator Vifa tweeter, Rocket uses this XT Ring Radiator (a higher end tweeter) in their $1500 Reference 1 Monitor - which is at least where I'd expect this kit to be in terms of similarly performancing commercial designs.

Parts express has a cheaper, but similar kit as well, available in far nicer cabinets...I've heard this design and it sounds great, I'd expect the Madisound one you mention to be a step up. The XT tweeter is a $70 tweeter, mated with a $60 woofer, which is fine, but I think a bit excessive...You usually see tweeters costing much less than the woofers which makes sense...the Woofer is responsible for far more audio information than the tweeter...just my opinion on where to invest your money for the biggest return on sound quality.
Here's the kit...there's others:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=302-914

Madisound uses quality components in their crossovers, and when all is said and done, they sell them finished for only a bit more than the cost of the parts, which is nice. Their kits are top quality...

Anyhoo, the BR-1 is great...but the Vifa Monitors will make them sound like Bose.

I also recommend taking a look at GR-Research AV-1's and of course Audioreview.com's own EFE DIY kit:
http://www.gr-research.com/performer/av1.htm
http://www.madisound.com/ar_com.html

Ed Frias designed the ar.com's and is quite helpful and eager to respond to questions for newbies on this design...After building a few other designs, I built my Home Theater on these...

Lots of great kits/designs out there in this price range.

[poneal]

First off, it is not true that most tweeters are less expensive than woofers. I can point out many examples where they are more expensive. IE, take a look at the new PE RS tweeter (almost $50) and then the RS150 (less than $30). I would venture to say that most buy the cheaper tweeters because of cost factors. As far as the kits go, here is my take on them. Kits are great to get started in the DIY speaker building field. Like you stated, the crossovers are premade meaning you save the time of soldering and figuring out how all those components go together. You also have the benefit of having a solid sounding speaker that someone has taken the time to design. IMHO, I think the vifa kit from madisound will beat the pants off the BR1. However, the PE kit http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=302-912
is probably similar to the maidsound vifa kit. BTW, the vifa woofers are known for not producing much bass below 80hz so you will need a sub. I think the most important thing is that you have fun. Regards, Paul.

[kexodusc]

First off, it is not true that most tweeters are less expensive than woofers. I can point out many examples where they are more expensive. IE, take a look at the new PE RS tweeter (almost $50) and then the RS150 (less than $30). I would venture to say that most buy the cheaper tweeters because of cost factors.
Hi Paul,

Just to be clear, I'm not implying it's somehow wrong to spend more on the tweeter...if you find a great value woofer to accomplish your goals, and then mate it with a tweeter that fills the rest of your budget, that's just as well in my books.

I'm sure we can both point out many examples where the woofer or tweeter cost more...but your last sentence really pointed out what I was getting at. Generally the more expensive tweeter means better sound, I agree with this completely...but I always take cost into consideration (who doesn't in a DIY project?)...I am going to hold on the argument that your woofer in the typical 2-way is responsible for 2 or 3 times as many octaves of information, and the area for greatest performance improvements IMO rests there...All things equal, is your money better invested in the midrange where most musical info exists or in the top end? I looked a bit further into the Vifa kit at Madisound, and I think it's sort of a good example of my point, it employs a passive radiator rather than just a port, hence more overall cash invested in the midrange/bass than the tweeter...an initial oversight on my part - not that I judge a speaker by how much the tweeter costs relative the rest or anything :)
I'm sure not everyone's preferences are the same, but I think we can all agree the majority of people would probably say the midrange, provided your tweeter isn't so cheap that it makes the design unlistenable.
Most books I've read, and people I've talked with don't recommend we allocate more money to the top 2 or 3 octaves where the least amount of musical information exists, but rather the opposite (with exceptions of course). I agree you can spend an extra $20, $50 or whatever on an awesome tweeter, work it into most designs and have your cake and eat it too, nothing wrong with that. Is it the most cost effective use of the money - guess that depends on the next best woofer you can find. Though I haven't listened to every woofer and every tweeter to make this judgement call, just basing on theory. I guess it's a trade off whether you like a smooth top end or better midrange/bass.

The XT Vifa woofers in my towers were only $10 more than the D2905 Scan-Speak tweeter I used, but as much better as a Revelator would have been, I don't think the extra $100 per tweeter would improve the overall design that much more than going with a better mid-range...
Just my opinion, and where I was coming from. Does it make any sense?

On the Madisound kit, Paul is right, most Vifa's aren't the greatest in terms of bass, which probably explains the decision to employ a PR...and as he said, starting with a kit or established design is the easiest and probably best way to get into DIY-ing, but you'll find quite quickly that you want something more. If you can solder, building a crossover isn't hard - designing one by yourself without software can be, trust me - and sometimes can save you money. Madisound assembles there's for a reasonable fee though, so you don't really save much making your own XO's if buying a kit from them.

I've heard the Vifa PL kit from PE, compared to say the Ar.com's, the midrange is better, and the top end a bit more refined too (it should be, it's more money), but as Paul mentioned, the bass from the Vifa is seriously thin below 60Hz, and what is there wasn't all that great...you'll definitely need a sub (lucky for you you have one!). Cross it over at 80 hz or so and overall, I liked it a bit better than the ar.com's. It's not really that much more money, either...Looking at the Madisound Kit...it has the same woofer, and a better tweeter...and more bass...On the surface, I'd say it should be the better of the two...you never know until you try though.

If you go with the Madisound kit, build your own cabinets....the Woodstyles are okay, but not the exactly the prettiest to look at IMO....I'm sure you could do better.

[vr6ofpain]

Yogo's Rocket RS250 comparison isn't quite accurate...that's just a standard ring radiator Vifa tweeter, Rocket uses this XT Ring Radiator (a higher end tweeter) in their $1500 Reference 1 Monitor - which is at least where I'd expect this kit to be in terms of similarly performancing commercial designs.

Well actually the "Vifa Studio Monitor" uses the XT25TG30 tweeter. I assume that is the "XT" one you speak of and not the 'standard' one?

http://www.madisound.com/images/xt25tg30.jpg

[vr6ofpain]

BTW, the vifa woofers are known for not producing much bass below 80hz so you will need a sub. I think the most important thing is that you have fun. Regards, Paul.

Well I do have a subwoofer, but this kit uses a rear firing 6.5" passive radiator too, and claims output down to 45Hz. So I think it would make about as much bass as other compact bookshelf monitors. Don't you?

[vr6ofpain]

On the Madisound kit, Paul is right, most Vifa's aren't the greatest in terms of bass, which probably explains the decision to employ a PR...and as he said, starting with a kit or established design is the easiest and probably best way to get into DIY-ing, but you'll find quite quickly that you want something more. If you can solder, building a crossover isn't hard - designing one by yourself without software can be, trust me - and sometimes can save you money. Madisound assembles there's for a reasonable fee though, so you don't really save much making your own XO's if buying a kit from them.

I've heard the Vifa PL kit from PE, compared to say the Ar.com's, the midrange is better, and the top end a bit more refined too (it should be, it's more money), but as Paul mentioned, the bass from the Vifa is seriously thin below 60Hz, and what is there wasn't all that great...you'll definitely need a sub (lucky for you you have one!). Cross it over at 80 hz or so and overall, I liked it a bit better than the ar.com's. It's not really that much more money, either...Looking at the Madisound Kit...it has the same woofer, and a better tweeter...and more bass...On the surface, I'd say it should be the better of the two...you never know until you try though.

If you go with the Madisound kit, build your own cabinets....the Woodstyles are okay, but not the exactly the prettiest to look at IMO....I'm sure you could do better.

I can solder and am not intimidated by putting together crossovers with instructions (though I am not going to try to design one yet!), but the funny thing is I am not very good with woodwork. I have built cheesy cabinets in the past, and build a nice amp rack for my car, but buidling a nice enclosure is something I am not sure I would be able to do just yet. I do have to agree, but box from the Madisound kit is ugly, but if it sounds good, I could car less (it isn't that much worse than the BR-1). On the other hand the PE Vifa monitor looks good because I actually like the look of the PE 'premium' premade enclosures.

[kexodusc]

Well actually the "Vifa Studio Monitor" uses the XT25TG30 tweeter. I assume that is the "XT" one you speak of and not the 'standard' one?

http://www.madisound.com/images/xt25tg30.jpg


Yeah, that's what I think I said in my very wordy, unclear way... :D
The Vifa fans on the diyaudio.com boards are big fans of this tweeter.

The BR-1 isn't too bad to look at, the Parts Express pictures just aren't the greatest. The Madisound Cabinets are a step up over the BR-1 in looks, IMO, unless you don't like that retro 80's style oak...I think you can get black ash too.

The Vifa PL kit from PE has the nicest choice of cabinets...not sure if it's the best sounding speaker though, because I haven't heard the Madisound Vifa Studio kit yet. It's almost $100 more though, in a perfect world it would sound better...but we know that's not always the case.

I've talked with more than few people who've built the Dayton Euro series, and the Dayton Aluminum/Silk MTM and Vifa/Dayton MTM kits that have been quite impressed...John Stockman frequents the Parts Express Tech Talk Forum and has speaks highly of a few of these kits...you might consider flagging him down...he's been around this stuff a lot longer than me and isn't easily impressed.

[Jimmy C]

I was considering buying the Dayton Audio BR-1 bookshelf speaker kit to replace some old infinity's in my surround setup.

Now I'm thinking of moving my stereo rig 'shelves to my surround system and picking these up to replace them:

http://www.madisound.com/vifastudio.html

anyone have any experience with Madisound kits? They actually assemble the crossovers for you, so they would be even quicker to assemble. I like the fact that these setup uses a passive radiator instead of a port. I really appareciate the sound of both my subwoofer, which uses a p.r. and a buddies Mackie monitors, which also use a p.r. Also they incorporate a ring radiator tweeter, which I have also read good things about.

http://www.madisound.com/images/studiophoto.jpg

http://www.madisound.com/images/VIFA_STUDIO_B.jpg

...the Madisound kits, but I'm happy with the BR1, cost considered. Kex would obviously be the best one to comment since he has heard both, but I think the Dayton is very good for $139. I wouldn't doubt the other kits are better, it's just that there aren't many choices in the sub-$150 range.

I think the worst sonic feature of the Dayton is a bit of "hootiness" in the midrange somewhere. It's not horrible, it's just that compared to a more neutral speaker... well, it's there. Geez - I recently heard a $2200/pair of Spendors that offended in the same way.

The good news is the kit can actually put flesh on the instruments and vocals... not always a "gimme", even in much higher-priced speakers. Also, they are never fatigueing, yet fairly resolving.

Soundstaging isn't too pinched and focused, nor is it 16 ft. tall.

They are nowhere near "fantastic", but for the price...

[kexodusc]

That's just it...I can't fault the BR-1's for the price, but for those looking to tweak the BR-1's to a bit better performance, Wayne Jaeschke's Dayton II (found at www.speakerbuilder.net) has a superior crossover...the two speakers are almost identical except for the xo...in fact the two designers collaborated on these projects. The Dayton Budget project is supposedly a better speaker for less money, though it has slightly less bass.
For those not afraid to DIY everything from scratch (except the design), I recommend either of these as being a bit better than the BR-1's. But the BR-1's are definitely quicker and easier, and probably less discouraging to the total newbie. As an all-in-one kit package, I don't know of any other options that are better for $140.

[vr6ofpain]

Well this thread is shaping up very nicely. Thanks for all the words of advice.

Actually I like the oak look, cannot really dig the rounded corners....but again, sound is way more important than looks to me. Obviously a horrid looking speaker that sounded good, would be frustrating, but it still looks good. I think the drivers in the Madisound "Vifa Studio Monitor" more than make up in coolness factor to the ugly enclosure. Do you think the 5/8" MDF is at a disadvantage over the 3/4" MDF PE boxes (which I believe have a 1" front baffle)?

That is very intereting that you bring up the Dayton "Euro Series Monitor". I was also considering that kit, because of the description. The enclosure seems to be pretty large for a monitor, so I also assumed that might help the bass.

So many choices.....I need to figure out which is best and just go with it. I would probably be more than happy with either of the two Vifa monitors, or the Euro. I still really like the idea of the assembled crossover, P.R., and ring radiator of the Madisound. I think I'll end up with that one!

but then again, the BR-1 has free shipping! :)

[kexodusc]

To be honest, in a speaker this size, 3/4" MDF is probably a bit excessive...the speaker isn't going to break. MDF is pretty tough...the BR-1 only uses 1/2" MDF too.
At the loudest of volumes there'll be some movement, but I think you'd want that energy to be released by the cabinet, not damped by the MDF. Shouldnt' be a problem...they would have used 3/4" if it was...
Building a cabinet is easy if you can dig up the nerve...very rewarding too.

[Geoffcin]

I was considering buying the Dayton Audio BR-1 bookshelf speaker kit to replace some old infinity's in my surround setup.

Now I'm thinking of moving my stereo rig 'shelves to my surround system and picking these up to replace them:

http://www.madisound.com/vifastudio.html


From the looks of it these are really sweet. That ring tweeter really interests me, and the kit looks pretty well built. Let us know how it sounds whne your finished.