Help with new cd player?

[madmax1]

I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.

[N. Abstentia]

If you have the connectivity needed for SACD then definitely go for it. But get a unit that also plays DVD-A.

[hershon]

I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.

Again, you get what you pay for. You want to take a shortcut and buy low, it'll cost you more in the end. I recommend you either get a good DVD player that at least has DVD-A (I just bought a Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player that you can get for $250 new with shipping online-it retails for $350, and the CD sound as well as DVD sound & picture are fantastic) or get a good Universal Player that will play DVD-A, SACD & DVD's. For me, I'm not really interested in DVD-A's or SACD, so just the DVD-A option suffices for me. Make sure whatever you do has a DAC of 192/24 bits.

PS

Make sure you have a decent receiver.

[madmax1]

I'm running a yamaha 2400 receiver. What is the diff between the two formats? Plus i was in best buy on Sunday and can't find any SCAD or DVD-A??

[hershon]

I'm running a yamaha 2400 receiver. What is the diff between the two formats? Plus i was in best buy on Sunday and can't find any SCAD or DVD-A??

I'm far from an expert but there aren't that many DVD-As or SACD's out there and there are more SACDs then DVD-A's & quite a few of them I bought were mediocore. Here's the thing, if you're not planning to get these (basically CD's with 5 distinct channels plus) then that shouldn't be a factor. However, as a general rule, yes there are exceptions, usually DVD players with at least DVD-A technology are more technologically advanced then those that aren't the same as receivers with 7 .1 sound as opposed to 5.1 sound, even if you're not going to use this. Again, make sure whatever you get has a DAC of 192/24.

[anamorphic96]

I'm far from an expert but there aren't that many DVD-A or SACD out there and there are more SACDs then DVD-A's & quite a few of them I bought were mediocore. Here's the thing, if you're not planning to get these (basically CD's with 5 distinct channels plus) then that shouldn't be a factor. However, as a general rules, yes there are exceptions, usually DVD players with at least DVD-A technology are more technologically advanced then those that aren't the same as receivers with 7 .1 sound as opposed to 5.1 sound, even if you're not going to use this. Again, make sure whatever you get has a DAC of 192/24.

There are thousands of SACD's and DVD A's on the market. Both use higher sampling rates to get more resolution out of the recording. Both use multi channel surround as well by using the analogue outputs from the DVD/SACD player going into the multi channel inputs on your 2400. Both can be used in 2 channel as well to get a higher resolution as well. Unless youre into investing in another format it might be best to stick with regular cd.

Since all cd players at this price pretty much sound the same. Integra makes a great cd changer for 199 that has 3 year warranty and great build quality. http://www.integrahometheater.com/

If youre willing to step up to 300 you can start looking at the Marantz CD5400, NAD C521BEE, or the Cambridge Audio 540C.



Hershon your not even using the 24/192 capability on your DVD player since your using the digital output. ;) So why does he need this ? Especially if he sticks with DVD CD. The statement regarding the 24 bit/192 khz is false if your not using DVD-A. Besides having this feature is no big deal. Even cheap units have this. It has nothing to do with your unit being more advanced.

On another note SACD uses DSD and not 24/192 DAC's. So this format would be using a different DAC.

[hershon]

In reference to anamorphic, all I know is the Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player I have produces the best CD (as well as DVD) sound I've ever heard- what that is attributed to I can't technologically define- in fact nothing personal & I'm speaking in generalities so if I missed someone that was an oversight, no one on this board or at any high end store I've been too or on any other board, has yet to specifically spell out other than a DAC what can make one DVD/CD/Universal player sound better than another if everything else is equal (i.e. same receiver, cables, CD, settings). I'm assuming by process of elimination its the DAC (I connect and prefer optic fiber on a digital connection) but I can't say that with certainty. As far as the other brands like the Marantz CD540 when I connected it (both digitally and by analogue to my old JVC receiver) it suckked (maybe it would sound better on my Denon 3801, I don't know). I also tried a Cambridge Audio Azur 640C which I think is one step higher than the CD player you recommended, and there wasn't much noticeable difference in sound between the $350 listed Harmon Kardon & the $529 listed Cambridge Audio, at least not enough difference to merit me keeping both. This might be personal taste, I'm not disputing that. As to DVD-A's and SACD's, based on my personal experience which is different than anamorphic, when I go into Tower Records there is not a big selection of either of these though there's about twice as many SACD's to DVD-A's there. Perhaps thousands are available online but not in stores.




There are thousands of SACD's and DVD A's on the market. Both use higher sampling rates to get more resolution out of the recording. Both use multi channel surround as well by using the analogue outputs from the DVD/SACD player going into the multi channel inputs on your 2400. Both can be used in 2 channel as well to get a higher resolution as well. Unless youre into investing in another format it might be best to stick with regular cd.

Since all cd players at this price pretty much sound the same. Integra makes a great cd changer for 199 that has 3 year warranty and great build quality. http://www.integrahometheater.com/

If youre willing to step up to 300 you can start looking at the Marantz CD5400, NAD C521BEE, or the Cambridge Audio 540C.



Hershon your not even using the 24/192 capability on your DVD player since your using the digital output. ;) So why does he need this ? Especially if he sticks with DVD CD. The statement regarding the 24 bit/192 khz is false if your not using DVD-A. Besides having this feature is no big deal. Even cheap units have this. It has nothing to do with your unit being more advanced.

On another note SACD uses DSD and not 24/192 DAC's. So this format would be using a different DAC.

[LEAFS264]

Hershon "I'm far from an expert " Is the most honest thing i've ever seen you post.
And the "Here's the thing, if you're not planning to get these (basically CD's with 5 distinct channels plus) then that shouldn't be a factor" Just makes me want to kill some one!!! People like you are one of the big reasons why this great high rez sound is going to die a slow death. You DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT IT, yet give advice to others about how it is just cd sound through 5 channels. AAAHHHHHHH!!!!!
I give up!
Oh, and that post of yours about the " does blocking the heat vents on my Receiver matter" . I think you just post this crap because you have nothing better to do. That post....even a person who REALLY doesn't know anything about hometheater,would not ask a moronic question like that.
Reading your garbage is really starting to piss me off.

[N. Abstentia]

[QUOTE=hershon]In reference to anamorphic, all I know is the Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player I have produces the best CD (as well as DVD) sound I've ever heard- what that is attributed to I can't technologically define- in fact nothing personal & I'm speaking in generalities so if I missed someone that was an oversight, no one on this board or at any high end store I've been too or on any other board, has yet to specifically spell out other than a DAC what can make one DVD/CD/Universal player sound better than another if everything else is equal (i.e. same receiver, cables, CD, settings). I'm assuming by process of elimination its the DAC (I connect and prefer optic fiber on a digital connection) QUOTE]


Here's where the problem with your advice lies...you say "get this player because it's DAC sound better than the other 2 players I tried!" But in the very next sentence you say you prefer the digital connection which BYPASSES THE DAC. If you prefer the digital connection then you DON'T like the sound of the DAC in the player, you like the sound of the DAC in the reciever and ALL players will sound identical using this method!

[hershon]

I shouldn't even bother to address you as you are so low on the food chain you're not worthy of even contempt. Genious (which in your case means you have a 2020 IQ), I never gave any misleading info about your precious DVD-A's, SACD's- get a life boy or better yet a job & I'm not talking Richard Simmonds here, sorry. I just said for me personally I'm not overall impressed with DVD-A's or SACD's at this point and if someone else isn't, it shouldn't be a factor in buying decisions. Again, snorklehead, to quote the great Mickey Rivers, what part of this do you not understand? If you like these discs, good for you, I don't care. Let the other people make up their own decisions for themselves. Its called free will a concept you probably never heard of. So if I don't love them, despite the fact that you say I should love them, tough. Excuse me for not knowing the technology behind this. As far as my question on the vents, again I appologize for not asking your permission, I've done things like that previously and it didn't affect anything, but this time my equipment is more expensive so I'll ask. If you think the answer is so obvious, then have you or anyone here on this board, actually messed up their system from first hand experience by doing this? I'm betting no one will say this but I will take their advice anyway. This is my last comment addressing you as I'm not into swatting mosquetos.


Hershon "I'm far from an expert " Is the most honest thing i've ever seen you post.
And the "Here's the thing, if you're not planning to get these (basically CD's with 5 distinct channels plus) then that shouldn't be a factor" Just makes me want to kill some one!!! People like you are one of the big reasons why this great high rez sound is going to die a slow death. You DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT IT, yet give advice to others about how it is just cd sound through 5 channels. AAAHHHHHHH!!!!!
I give up!
Oh, and that post of yours about the " does blocking the heat vents on my Receiver matter" . I think you just post this crap because you have nothing better to do. That post....even a person who REALLY doesn't know anything about hometheater,would not ask a moronic question like that.
Reading your garbage is really starting to piss me off.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[hershon]

Here's where the problem with your advice lies...you say "get this player because it's DAC sound better than the other 2 players I tried!" But in the very next sentence you say you prefer the digital connection which BYPASSES THE DAC. If you prefer the digital connection then you DON'T like the sound of the DAC in the player, you like the sound of the DAC in the reciever and ALL players will sound identical using this method![/QUOTE]

Again, by process of elimination I'm trying to determine a characteristic in one player that I don't think off the top of my head was in the other like 192/24 DAC &by process of elimination
I'm attibuting the difference to that. It might not be right, but if you have an alternative or better alternative for defining specific differences due to specific parts, please in all seriousness, let me know.

[anamorphic96]

Yes that is true this HK has that DAC capability but you are not using it. If you have the player connected using the DVD-A outputs the 24/192 dac will kick in. But only with DVD-A encoded discs. Any other format you use such as DTS and Dolby Digital are being done by the Denon.

The differences are not going to be huge between players either. Especially since you are using two high quality units. But ther is no way to ACCURATELY tell the diffrencs between the players unless you compare them the same way. Using the analogue connections on both will tell you the real difference. But only this way. Since optical connections bypasses everything.

Diffrences between players -

100 to 200
Not many diffrences in sound since the price point compromises things. However you can still get a good player at this price.

300 to 500
This is where things change and I feel differences can be noticed in build and sound quality. This is where you see the better DAC's. Yes they are the major difference but they are not the only thing you pay for. As stated in a previous post it comes down to alot of things.(power supply design,chassis, transport, capacitors, opamps). These things as a combined whole make the difference in players and this is what you are paying for with upmarket players. Along with the name to an extent.

Keep in mind though you can have two DAC's that have the same specs and still be from the same company. Think of Lexus and Toyota or Acura and Honda. Both do the same thing and can have the same spec but one is more refined than the other.

[hershon]

Maybe the HK31 DVD player is applicable to what you said as its a $350 listed DVD player albeit I paid $250 for it new. All I know is when I experimently connected it via 2 analogue Diamonback $125 cables the CD sound wasn't half as good as the optically connected sound & all the settings were correct. When I connected 6 interconnects to play DVD-A, the sound was excellent. I didn't say I wouldn't buy or play DVD-A's, just that on the whole I'm somewhat dissapointed in them at present. When I temporarily connected the Cambridge Audio Azur 640C CD player $529 list, by the 2 diamondback $125 cables, the sound of the Cambridge Audio CD player was either no better than the Harmon Kardon DVD player connected optically or slightly worse, depending on your taste. This was witnessed by someone else on this board.

When I connected the HK31 DVD player to my then JVC DVD receiver, the DVD sound was significantly better on the HK then the built in DVD player. The CD sound however was better on the built in JVC than hearing it from the HK through the JVC receiver.

When I initially got a Denon 2105 receiver and a Denon DVD player (not sure the model number other than it didn't play DVD-A), the CD sound sucked.

What does this all mean? I wish I knew. To me the best way to pick a CD or Universal or DVD player is to check out all the Amazon.com reviews on it and any other online reviews and take an educated guess and then see what the actual product's website says. Other then getting a total unequivocal endorsement from someone on this board whose opinion you respect or hearing it at a friend's hourse, alot of this is a crapshoot.



Yes that is true this HK has that DAC capability but you are not using it. If you have the player connected using the DVD-A outputs the 24/192 dac will kick in. But only with DVD-A encoded discs. Any other format you use such as DTS and Dolby Digital are being done by the Denon.

The differences are not going to be huge between players either. Especially since you are using two high quality units. But ther is no way to ACCURATELY tell the diffrencs between the players unless you compare them the same way. Using the analogue connections on both will tell you the real difference. But only this way. Since optical connections bypasses everything.

Diffrences between players -

100 to 200
Not many diffrences in sound since the price point compromises things. However you can still get a good player at this price.

300 to 500
This is where things change and I feel differences can be noticed in build and sound quality. This is where you see the better DAC's. Yes they are the major difference but they are not the only thing you pay for. As stated in a previous post it comes down to alot of things.(power supply design,chassis, transport, capacitors, opamps). These things as a combined whole make the difference in players and this is what you are paying for with upmarket players. Along with the name to an extent.

Keep in mind though you can have two DAC's that have the same specs and still be from the same company. Think of Lexus and Toyota or Acura and Honda. Both do the same thing and can have the same spec but one is more refined than the other.

[anamorphic96]

Hershon have you connected the HK with the analogue cable and compared it to the Cambridge with the same connection ?

Do not use the optical connection on either unit and tell me what you think of the two.

[hershon]

I didn't connect the HK by analogue to make the CD sound comparison because the analogue sound by its own on the HK sucked so what was the point? When I listened to the same CD digitally through opticable cable on the HK the sound was great. So I therefore compared the digital HK sound to the analogue Cambridge Audio Sound (as an aside Cambridge Audio sounded better via analogue connections then an optical connection). In other words I compared the way a CD sounded best on both players irregardless of whether it was digital or analogue connection. To clarify further, sound of HK playing a CD digitally is better or the same than playing Cambridge Audio by analogie. The sound of HK playing a CD by analogue is worse then playing the Cambridge Audio Cd player either digitally or by analogue. The sound of Hk playing a CD digitially is better than playing a Cambridge Audio digitally, All my settings were correct as well.

[anamorphic96]

I didn't connect the HK by analogue to make the CD sound comparison because the analogue sound by its own on the HK sucked so what was the point?

Hershon this is the entire point. To do equal comparisons. The optical connection uses the Denon receiver not the HK. You are hearing the Denon.

I compared the way a CD sounded best on both players irregardless of whether it was digital or analogue connection

This is the wrong way to compare players. Ask anyone here. Its not a proper comparison since its the DAC's in the Denon not the HK that are giving you the sound your hearing.


The sound of HK playing a CD by analogue is worse then playing the Cambridge Audio Cd player either digitally or by analogue.

This statement tells me the HK is not good with 2 cahnnel audio.

[anamorphic96]

Hershon,

Do you understand the difference between a digital connection and an analogue connection ?

I ask because im not sure if you understand the difference. Im not putting you down just want to clarify if you dont know. :)

[LEAFS264]

Hey Hershon...."If you like these discs, good for you, I don't care. Let the other people make up their own decisions for themselves. Its called free will a concept you probably never heard of. " Nice quote....


I want him to make up his own mind. Your the jackass telling him...." it's just cd sound in 5 channels". When in fact it is so much more. You are a joke Hershon. A waste of my very time. I don't give a rats ass if you don't like sacd or dvd-audio,THATS NOT THE POINT LITTLE MAN. The point is you and your absolute god awefull advice. How can you offer advice on a tech you don't know anything about!!! Please tell me HOW.
As for your Receiver heat vent post.......well, where to start. What happens when your receiver can't cool it self,because the heat vent is blocked......IT SHUTS IT SELF DOWN. That is bad.
Hershon. I will be watching all your posts from now on. If you continue to give advice,with out a clue,i'll be there to correct you. If I can't or don't know,i'm sure some of the big boys here like Kex and woochifer will step up and put you in your place.
A guy like you, should be asking as many questions as possible as it is very clear that you knowledge of home theater is at best.... grade school level.
"WHICH PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND"
Madmax1....i'm very sorry i had to use your post to do this.

"I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.

You should only invest in a sacd if your interested in that format. Do you know anyone with a set up that has sacd or dvd-audio that you could demo first? It is a great format.But the trouble is the marketing sucks. Sony has given up,in order to center on the new high def dvds coming out. There are lots of great titles to listen to,and also some bad ones.
My advice is, Check out a local shop and listen to one of there set ups. If you feel that it is the same as cd quality,that just pick up a cd player. But if you are as blown away as i was, it is worth getting the system.
But remember. You can't make a bad choice.So don't worry about it!!

Jay

[shokhead]

Hey Hershon...."If you like these discs, good for you, I don't care. Let the other people make up their own decisions for themselves. Its called free will a concept you probably never heard of. " Nice quote....


I want him to make up his own mind. Your the jackass telling him...." it's just cd sound in 5 channels". When in fact it is so much more. You are a joke Hershon. A waste of my very time. I don't give a rats ass if you don't like sacd or dvd-audio,THATS NOT THE POINT LITTLE MAN. The point is you and your absolute god awefull advice. How can you offer advice on a tech you don't know anything about!!! Please tell me HOW.
As for your Receiver heat vent post.......well, where to start. What happens when your receiver can't cool it self,because the heat vent is blocked......IT SHUTS IT SELF DOWN. That is bad.
Hershon. I will be watching all your posts from now on. If you continue to give advice,with out a clue,i'll be there to correct you. If I can't or don't know,i'm sure some of the big boys here like Kex and woochifer will step up and put you in your place.
A guy like you, should be asking as many questions as possible as it is very clear that you knowledge of home theater is at best.... grade school level.
"WHICH PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND"
Madmax1....i'm very sorry i had to use your post to do this.

"I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.

You should only invest in a sacd if your interested in that format. Do you know anyone with a set up that has sacd or dvd-audio that you could demo first? It is a great format.But the trouble is the marketing sucks. Sony has given up,in order to center on the new high def dvds coming out. There are lots of great titles to listen to,and also some bad ones.
My advice is, Check out a local shop and listen to one of there set ups. If you feel that it is the same as cd quality,that just pick up a cd player. But if you are as blown away as i was, it is worth getting the system.
But remember. You can't make a bad choice.So don't worry about it!!

Jay


Why dont you just correct him. One thing i've learned on the A/V forums is some that know this stuff really thinks there sh$t dont stink. Correct somebody and they will learn. I dont know anyone thats born knowing. These forums are here to teach and learn.

[shokhead]

Get multi-channel if you have 5.1 setup,you'll like it. A Yamaha C750 at Good Guys is $299 and plays everythging and its a changer. You might try used. Hershon had a player for sale.

[noddin0ff]

hershon, Leaf my be taking you to task but he's actually making a very accurate point. You are giving advice about things you don't understand. You made a long post where you essentially compared apples to oranges to bananas. Yes, I understand it is your opinion, but you're opinions don't have any validity AS ADVICE because you are comparing things that aren't generally comparable. I'm sure you're hearing differences, but they aren't meaningful for giving advice. It's clear you enjoy this hobby. You just need to take a time out and learn some of the technology first.

Until then the jury is still out on who got bit by the learning disabled pit bull...

[noddin0ff]

I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.

Madmax, Looking at your setup, you likely can hear the difference of SACD. In addition to multichannel which is obvious, there is often a high-res stereo track that will be superior to CD for the critical listener. I don't have too many SACDs. Dark Side of the Moon is cool in multi-channel, but I don't get to sit still long enough to surround myself. Last I looked, (which was a while ago) there weren't too many low-cost options with both DVD-A and SACD. The two formats are still competing in the market place. My previous player was DVD-A, not SACD; I still have disks I can't listen to. I went with Philips DVD795SA (~$150). It doesn't play DVD-A. If I had to do it again I'd go for a more expensive player ($200-300). The sound is fine but the operation is cumbersome and it won't recognize SACD until I start another disk first (odd and annoying). SACD playback isn't that costly anymore compared to a player with out it. Find a player you like to operate and it will likely have SACD. I would stress operation ease. Once you start adding capabilities, you start adding menus and buttons. Having to navigate the remote to play SACD detracts from my experience. I think a well designed interface is worth a little more $.

[N. Abstentia]

Hershon I don't think you understand what the digital connection is doing. I say this because you keep saying how much better the DAC in that HK player sounds compared to the others you tried, but then turn right around and say that 'the sound of the HK really sucks on the analong connection'. Well that means the DAC sucks! The very DAC that you keep saying is so wonderful...then you say it sucks in the next sentence.

Again, you cannot do a comparison of players if you're going to use the digital connection. The digital connection BYPASSES EVERYTHING IN THE PLAYER and leaves it up to the receiver to handle. Using digital, all players will sound the same because all you're doing it sending out a digital signal.

[hershon]

All I was trying to say is that my Harmon Kardon DVD player when combined with my Denon receiver gives me better sound then any other CD/DVD/Universal player I've ever tried and for the present I'm attributing that by process of elimination to the DAC albeit to get this great sound I am listening by an optical connection. If factors are at work such as osmosis why the HK gets this great sound and its not from the DAC fine, but obviously something is making the sound great. No one on this board or at any store has yet to identify what specific part of a CD/DVD/Universal player equipment will make the sound better than the next player other than a DAC. As I said, if your saying the DAC has nothing to do with optical connection sound fine, but something is giving the HK DVD player great optical sound.

[hershon]

hershon, Leaf my be taking you to task but he's actually making a very accurate point. You are giving advice about things you don't understand. You made a long post where you essentially compared apples to oranges to bananas. Until then the jury is still out on who got bit by the learning disabled pit bull...

Excuse me I condensed this. You're missing the whole point. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the dude's self righteous all knowing mocking tone addressing me not with actual criticism of me. There's a difference in the two.

[noddin0ff]

Excuse me I condensed this. You're missing the whole point. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the dude's self righteous all knowing mocking tone addressing me not with actual criticism of me. There's a difference in the two.
Sure, we'd all like to be treated nice, but with statements like

I shouldn't even bother to address you as you are so low on the food chain you're not worthy of even contempt...This is my last comment addressing you as I'm not into swatting mosquetos... but Leaf you're a waste of spurm.

your deep concerns about self-righteousness and mockery sound mighty hollow. Proper spelling would help in your case too; nothing takes the sting out of an insult like sloppy spelling. Try S-P-E-R-M and M-O-S-Q-U-I-T-O-S and at least your put downs will sound informed. If you want to make a point, set an example.


As I said, if your saying the DAC has nothing to do with optical connection sound fine, but something is giving the HK DVD player great optical sound.
I'll try again where others have failed. Hershon, nothing is giving your HK better sound in this case. There is no 'digital sound'. The purpose of a DAC is to turn a digital signal into analog sound. You are listening to the analog sound produced DENON DAC. If you hooked any other CD player to your DENON with an optical cable it will deliver the same digital signal as your HK. The DENON DAC will do the same thing and you will get the same sound. Someone may come in and argue 'jitter' but that is not the issue here. You may be hearing a better sound, but it is not because your HK has 'great optical sound'

[anamorphic96]

Hey Hershon you never anwered my question about digital and analogue connections. Can you in your own words explain the difference ? Dont get technical just describe the function of each.

[anamorphic96]

Another thing is get a blind fold and have someone like Paul install his DVD player the same way on your Denon. Then listen to the two withoout knowing which is in use. I bet you cant hear the difference.

[LEAFS264]

Why dont you just correct him. One thing i've learned on the A/V forums is some that know this stuff really thinks there sh$t dont stink. Correct somebody and they will learn. I dont know anyone thats born knowing. These forums are here to teach and learn.



Shokhead, I agree with you 100 percent. I really do feel this form is here for us all to learn,but when people are giving advice and FAKING there way through with no knowledge to back it up.......that person should keep to learning and stay far away from the teaching. This is not the first time he has given bad advice, where do you draw the line and say somthing. For me it was this thread.

Jay

[shokhead]

Well i send him sites with info to read on some of the stuff he talks about. Thats should help. What really bothers me is when somebody corrects somebodys spelling. Mine sucks but i dont need anyone to tell me. I'm 52,not 2.

[LEAFS264]

Ya, somtimes i'm typing way to fast and not watching what i'm doing,than it all turns to crap. I don't think Hershon is a bad guy..just not well informed. And as far as the little hissy-fit with the insults go, that just goes to the age level that we're all dealing with.


Jay

[N. Abstentia]

[QUOTE=hershon]All I was trying to say is that my Harmon Kardon DVD player when combined with my Denon receiver gives me better sound then any other CD/DVD/Universal player I've ever tried and for the present I'm attributing that by process of elimination to the DAC albeit to get this great sound I am listening by an optical connection. [QUOTE]

The problem is, you keep saying this HK player sounds so great, but then you (in not so many words) say it sounds like crap in the next breath because you have to hook it up digitally to make it sound good. This BYPASSES evertything in the player that makes it different from any other player. So the HK is NOT a good sounding player according to you.

With the hookup method you are using there will be no difference in the sound of your HK or a $39 grocery store player or a $900 overpriced player.

[shokhead]

Cool. Then lets try helping him and then along the way i'll lean stuff to because god knows i'm way light on how this stuff works. I've been out of the A/V loop for 5-6 years and was into and still am cycling but at xmas,i upgraded everytrhing but speakers. WAF put a stop to further upgrades. LOL

[noddin0ff]

Well i send him sites with info to read on some of the stuff he talks about. Thats should help. What really bothers me is when somebody corrects somebodys spelling. Mine sucks but i dont need anyone to tell me. I'm 52,not 2.

What really bothers me is when somebody lacks consideration. My spelling sucks but I take the extra 3 seconds to spell check, as a small token gesture of consideration for others. Like wearing a shirt in a restaurant. Lack of capitals, apostrophes, and spelling are minor nuisances, but they do influence whether or not you are taken seriously. Take time to write and people will take time to help. Deride others and...

Consideration aside, if you're *trying* to insult someone..."spurm"? That's just funny. Why get all worked up if you're not even going to try. It's anticlimactic, the insult just hangs there, impotent...

If I were the moderator I'd delete hershon's posts (#10 and #19) for being rude. But, odds are, this one will be deleted. So read fast.

[LEAFS264]

This thread belongs to madmax1, not Hershon. So lets not use up anymore of this thread on Hershons equipment problems....because this whole form is full of Hershon and his damn Equipment.
lol.

[anamorphic96]

I think madmax gave up along time ago.

[paul_pci]

All I was trying to say is that my Harmon Kardon DVD player when combined with my Denon receiver gives me better sound then any other CD/DVD/Universal player I've ever tried and for the present I'm attributing that by process of elimination to the DAC albeit to get this great sound I am listening by an optical connection. If factors are at work such as osmosis why the HK gets this great sound and its not from the DAC fine, but obviously something is making the sound great. No one on this board or at any store has yet to identify what specific part of a CD/DVD/Universal player equipment will make the sound better than the next player other than a DAC. As I said, if your saying the DAC has nothing to do with optical connection sound fine, but something is giving the HK DVD player great optical sound.

Yes, and it's the Denon receiver, which is why all of us prodded you to dump the JVC like a stinking corpse.

[LEAFS264]

Yah, 2 posts out of 36. I would say he gave up.

[hershon]

In regards to spelling of certain words say "basztard" for instance, try spelling it accurately and this websites software will automatically X out the words so there's a little method in my madness. As to the other mispellings like misquetto or whatever, I profess to total laziness.
I'm assuming "spurmm" would either be censored if spelled right or get me in trouble with the
people running the board. I actually have a BA in English if that makes you feel better!

[shokhead]

LOL :eek: I'm tell'n ya,everybodys sh$t stinks.

[hershon]

You're basically saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that I can connect any DVD player whatsoever to my Denon 3801 Receiver, at the same DVD and/or receiver settings and get the same identical CD sound? I absolutely unequivocally disagree and am taking issue with you presuming to tell other people what they're hearing or not hearing when you're not there and the actual person is. In front of someone on this board, I connected the Harmon Kardon DVD player digitally to my JVC receiver and he heard the same difference in sound I did from my DVD built in JVC player. If DVD players all sound the same when connected digitally, then you wouldn't have significant price differences & some company would have an advertising campaign that our cheap so and so DVD player sounds the same as a $300 DVD player when played digitally because NoddinOff says so.

[N. Abstentia]

You're basically saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that I can connect any DVD player whatsoever to my Denon 3801 Receiver, at the same DVD and/or receiver settings and get the same identical CD sound?

BY GEORGE I THINK HE'S FINALLY GOT IT!

A digital signal is just simply a raw bitstream. It's 0's and 1's. It's either off or on, there is no middle ground. All players sound identical when sending a digital signal.

[shokhead]

So the next question is what makes players better or worst? Laser? Curcuits? Boards? Quality of all the stuff inside?

[N. Abstentia]

Power supplies, spindle motors, transports, better analog output stages, isolated chassis, signal chain layout, low noise component layout..etc..is what makes more expensive players better in most cases.

Is it worth it? That's up to the user.

[noddin0ff]

You're basically saying... that I can connect any DVD player whatsoever to my Denon 3801 Receiver, at the same DVD and/or receiver settings and get the same identical CD sound? I absolutely unequivocally disagree and am taking issue with you presuming to tell other people what they're hearing or not hearing when you're not there and the actual person is...
Hershon, spelling aside and rudeness aside, I'm trying to help you understand what you're hearing. I said

You may be hearing a better sound, but it is not because your HK has 'great optical sound'
So I didn't presume to tell you what you were or were not hearing. I am trying to help you figure out what to attribute it to. To the best of my knowledge, nowhere in this thread have you compared two players connected *digitally* to your Denon. You don't have to, but if you did, my bet is that they will sound identical regardless of quality. I'm not the only person on this thread to make this comment. You attributed the better HK sound to the HK DAC, but you were bypassing this DAC. You may 'absolutely unequivocally disagree' but until you make the correct comparison this disagreement is just speculation. Connect them via analog connections and there likely could be a difference. If you do the digital only comparison and still hear a difference, that's fine by me, enjoy it. Deep inside, I'll believe you only think you hear a difference, but if you’re happy, what does it matter? But you should understand what you are comparing so that when you find the sound you're looking for you know what is making it happen. Others more knowledgeable than I have given you similar advise. Please read all of anamorphic's posts.

[hershon]

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong about the DAC nor need or desire to reiterate about the optical connection, but No One Here, I Repeat No One, will give a straight answer, on what specifically by Specifical part, can make one DVD player sound better than another DVD player when connected Optically to the same receiver at the same settings. Some people are insisting, which is cool, that there is no difference in sound under this connection as all its reading is "X's and O's" but I maintain some DVD players are making the "X's and O's" better than others. Again, if such a fact is true, then why hasn't someone come up with the cheapest $5/Pick a Price DVD player & actually advertised that the sound is as good as a $500 player through a digital connection?

[JeffKnob]

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong about the DAC nor need or desire to reiterate about the optical connection, but No One Here, I Repeat No One, will give a straight answer, on what specifically by Specifical part, can make one DVD player sound better than another DVD player when connected Optically to the same receiver at the same settings. Some people are insisting, which is cool, that there is no difference in sound under this connection as all its reading is "X's and O's" but I maintain some DVD players are making the "X's and O's" better than others. Again, if such a fact is true, then why hasn't someone come up with the cheapest $5/Pick a Price DVD player & actually advertised that the sound is as good as a $500 player through a digital connection?

A digital connection sends only 1's and 0's. This is a binary signal. There are only two options 1's and 0's. A 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0. There is no such thing as a great 1 or a great 0 or a crappy 1 or a crappy 0. Certain combinations of these 1's and 0's are translated by a DAC (Digital to analog converter) into the wonderful sounds that we listen to. A DAC will read the digital signal the same as any other but the quality of the conversion to analog is where the difference is.

If you are using the analog connections from any source to a receiver the conversion from digital to analog has already taken place by the sources DAC. If you are using a digital connection the conversion hasn't taken place until the signal gets to the DAC in your receiver. Many people prefer using a digital connection because a digital signal travels better with little to no degredation in signal quality.

Most people will choose to purchase a more expensive DVD player to obtain a better picture and not for the sound because most people who are actually concerned about he sound will know to use a digital connection.

[LEAFS264]

Most people will choose to purchase a more expensive DVD player to obtain a better picture and not for the sound because most people who are actually concerned about he sound will know to use a digital connection.


Amen, to that.
Do you understand now Hershon!!
People with $2000-6000 cd players don't use digital connections.
People with $500-3000 dvd players look for a better picture. Because the sound from a DIGITAL connection is the same!!!!!!!!!

Jay

[paul_pci]

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong about the DAC nor need or desire to reiterate about the optical connection, but No One Here, I Repeat No One, will give a straight answer, on what specifically by Specifical part, can make one DVD player sound better than another DVD player when connected Optically to the same receiver at the same settings. Some people are insisting, which is cool, that there is no difference in sound under this connection as all its reading is "X's and O's" but I maintain some DVD players are making the "X's and O's" better than others. Again, if such a fact is true, then why hasn't someone come up with the cheapest $5/Pick a Price DVD player & actually advertised that the sound is as good as a $500 player through a digital connection?

Hershon, look at N. Absentia's post #45 of this thread. It is the list that you claim no one has given as to what physical differences are to be found across different DVD players at different price points.

[shokhead]

Amen, to that.
Do you understand now Hershon!!
People with $2000-6000 cd players don't use digital connections.
People with $500-3000 dvd players look for a better picture. Because the sound from a DIGITAL connection is the same!!!!!!!!!

Jay

Well no. I got my under $500 DVD player for the audio. Also thats abit of a blanket statement that you assume.

[LEAFS264]

You didn't get your 500 DVD player for the sound from the Digital connection did you?
You got it for DVD-audio or sacd which is not done through a Digital connection.
And if you bought your 500 dvd player for a better sound from the coax cable....you wasted your hard earned money.

Jay

[noddin0ff]

Well no. I got my under $500 DVD player for the audio. Also thats abit of a blanket statement that you assume.

Are we *trying* to write comedy, or help hershon here? Seriously, shokhead, if you're going to be this picky, then you should note that your <$500 player doesn't fall in the $500-$3000 range Leaf mentioned so there is nothing for you personally contradict in his obviously-generalized-to-make-a-point blanket statement.

If your concern is sound, pay attention to the Audio DAC. If your concern is video pay attention to the Video DAC. This is not easy to do for most mass market brands unless you make a serious effort. More money for a DVD player in the price range most consumers shop in will possibly purchase better Video DAC's, but can also purchase all those things that N. Absentia's post #45 lists, and possibly better Audio DACs. If you wonder if you should invest in SACD when looking at CD players, I still say yes.

[hershon]

Hershon, look at N. Absentia's post #45 of this thread. It is the list that you claim no one has given as to what physical differences are to be found across different DVD players at different price points.

It's not specific. Its like me claiming that the difference in my basketball playing ability and LeBron James is our bone structure.

[noddin0ff]

(attempt at comedy writing in progress)...If I was going to pay for a basketball player, I'd pay more for one with LeBron Jame's 6' 8'' / 240lb bone structure than I would for that of most forum members.

I'd pay more for more human interface design considerations and appearance in a DVD player, even though this has less bearing on audio performance than N.A's list. I'd pay more for leather interior in a car. Price doesn't necessarily indicate performance, especially when you use the digital outs. Quality parts/design can influence lifespan, durability, and appeal, all valuable traits to some.

[hershon]

Not that this is important, but to clarify, my DVD-A Sound on the Harmon Kardon obviously done by Analogue connections is excellent, but other than the fact the HK can play DVD-A's, this wasn't a factor in my decision to buy it. Personally, at this point in time I'm not impressed with the sound or the titles currently available but who's to say if that won't change
over time. Yes, I've heard some really good things but I've also heard some really bad mediocore things on labels like Starline or Starlight I forget the exact name which puts out alot of Rock reissues from the 60/70's out of England. When I play a 2 Channel Cd and use analogue connections on the HK however it doesn't sound half as good as done by optical connections. Yes, I bought my DVD player because of the sound. I consider it a "Universal Player" anyway despite the fact that it doesn't play SACD's as DVD-A is sufficient now for my purposes. For me personally, while the picture in the HK is the best I've ever seen, I would be hard pressed to notice differences in the picture of most progressive scan DVD players. As far as the $500 "break down point", all I can say is there are suckers out there who spend $10,000 on an FM tuner.

[paul_pci]

It's not specific. Its like me claiming that the difference in my basketball playing ability and LeBron James is our bone structure.

Okay, it may not be specific enough for you, or the exact ideal answer you're looking for, but there's a difference in claiming that an inquiry has NOT been answered, which is what you're claiming, versus an inquiry has been unsatisfactorily addressed.

[noddin0ff]

...my DVD-A Sound on the Harmon Kardon obviously done by Analogue connections is excellent, ... When I play a 2 Channel Cd and use analogue connections on the HK however it doesn't sound half as good as done by optical connections.

There could be some reasons for this. These are speculations, of course. When you listen to DVD-A, typically the receiver accepts the multi-channel analog signals and does no processing of the signal, only amplification. This is not always true for 2-channel. In addition to DSP mode's the analog signal may actually get digitized and reprocessed and made analog again. My run-of-the-mill Yamaha A/V receiver does this for 2-channel. There is an option for 'Processor Direct' that takes this processing out of the circuit. Another thought is that the difference may be one of volume. The level (volume) of the analog 2-channel signal from the HK DAC side may be different (less) than that of the Denon DAC side. The actually quality may be very good for both, but less volume when using the HK analog connection is typically perceived as worse. I'm sure if you wanted to pursue this you could start a new thread and get good comments.

[hershon]

Okay, it may not be specific enough for you, or the exact ideal answer you're looking for, but there's a difference in claiming that an inquiry has NOT been answered, which is what you're claiming, versus an inquiry has been unsatisfactorily addressed.

It has not been addressed to my satisfaction. To be even more specific, if I told someone I wanted to get a DVD player that would produce the best sound through a digital connection
& what exact part/factor/what have you, should I look for, no the answer all DVD players sound the same through a digital connection would be like saying if you did it with
a young "Raquel Welch" it would be the same experience as doing it with a "Monica Lewinsky"- if you get my drift.

[LEAFS264]

Hershon are you STILL high????? How can you comp two different woman to a standard future on all dvd players. All information sent via a DIGITAL connecton is the SAME on all DVD players......this is a fact, I don't care whether you accept it or not. It is the way it is.
You still have no idea how information travels from the dvd player to an amp or receiver. So when nice people on this site try and tell you, and you argue with them. What is going through your head.
Keep your mouth shut and assimilate what people are trying to tell you.


Jay

[hershon]

Hey Mr. 20-20 IQ, don't tell me what I hear or don't hear. My ears are probably 1000 times more accute then you & you're a misquito as well, so I ought to know what I hear, not you. I'm not saying I'm right all the time (though I am with you) but at least I stimulate topic conversation here which is more than I can say for you, you Charlatan. Give my regards to Richard Simmonds.

[LEAFS264]

HAHAHA. Hershon your killing me, really stop, I if I laugh anymore I'll fall off my chair at work.
BA in english my ass!!!
Hershon any changes in sound are being done at the Receiver( I can't keep doing this) please just accept it and GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE.....FOR GODSAKE MAN.

Jay

[shokhead]

[QUOTE=noddin0ff]Are we *trying* to write comedy, or help hershon here? Seriously, shokhead, if you're going to be this picky, then you should note that your <$500 player doesn't fall in the $500-$3000 range Leaf mentioned so there is nothing for you personally contradict in his obviously-generalized-to-make-a-point blanket statement.

If your concern is sound, pay attention to the Audio DAC. If your concern is video pay attention to the Video DAC. This is not easy to do for most mass market brands unless you make a serious effort. More money for a DVD player in the price range most consumers shop in will possibly purchase better Video DAC's, but can also purchase all those things that N. Absentia's post #45 lists, and possibly better Audio DACs. If you wonder if you should invest in SACD when looking at CD players, I still say yes.[/QU


I got it for the SACD and being a changer and its got pretty good guts.

[hershon]

To the people here who think I'm in left field looking at right, I challange all of you (with the exception of Mistah Leaf who I don't trust) to the following Challenge. If you own 2 DVD players one significantly more expensive/different than the other, a CD burner, 2 optic cables & a receiver with 2 optical inputs, you're eligible. First burn 2 CDR's of a commercial music CD (not mp3) you like (I won't be accepting a CD to CDR comparison as I want everything to be totally equal without question if somehow there is a difference). Then connect the second DVD player by optic cable to the receiver, using an auxillary or perhaps CD input. You need to use an Optic Conection for your first DVD as well. The settings on the 2 inputs should be identical as should the DVD settings. As to mode, use the the 5 or 6 all channel natural mode- the mode that you'll hear all your speakers and the sub on in natural unreprocessed sound- Do not use Prologic, Matrix or anything else that changes the sound. Now play both CDR's in your DVD player on the same track at close to the same starting time as possible. Do not touch your receiver's volume controls, bass/treble levels, etc. Using your remote, then change back and forth between the DVD input and the input your second DVD player is on. If you detect any difference whatsoever, please state so here, we're using the honor system. If you don't detect any difference, that's also fine, I'm not going to dispute that.

[N. Abstentia]

I did that a while back with all three of my DVD players.

1) A Panasonic 5 disc (very old and cheap).
2) A Sony 300 disc (somewhat old and cheap).
3) A Marantz DV-6400 Universal DVD/SACD/DVD-A ($550)

Conclusion: all sound identical with the optical connection. This is because the d to a conversion is being done by the receiver and not the player because it's connected digitally.

Switching to analog connections, the Marantz smokes all of them. The Panny and the Sony are very similar, but the Marantz is head & shoulders above the rest. This is because it has a better DAC, and I'm using it because I'm using the analog connection.

[LEAFS264]

WOW....imagine that. Are you paying attention Hershon,class is in session !!!
I really don't think there is a need to carry on this farse of a post.
Hershon doesn't get it....he is not ever going to get it. Lets move on.


Jay

[shokhead]

I did that a while back with all three of my DVD players.

1) A Panasonic 5 disc (very old and cheap).
2) A Sony 300 disc (somewhat old and cheap).
3) A Marantz DV-6400 Universal DVD/SACD/DVD-A ($550)

Conclusion: all sound identical with the optical connection. This is because the d to a conversion is being done by the receiver and not the player because it's connected digitally.

Switching to analog connections, the Marantz smokes all of them. The Panny and the Sony are very similar, but the Marantz is head & shoulders above the rest. This is because it has a better DAC, and I'm using it because I'm using the analog connection.

So did the Marantz sound better hooked up with the dig or the analog?

[hershon]

[QUOTE=N. Abstentia]I did that a while back with all three of my DVD players.

Conclusion: all sound identical with the optical connection. This is because the d to a conversion is being done by the receiver and not the player because it's connected digitally."

That's cool. Maybe I'm the only one who has experienced the difference, At least you actually did this and then ventured your opinion.

[JeffKnob]

N. Abstentia heard the same thing because the SAME thing was being sent by ALL DVD players and being converted by the same DAC. There will always be no difference. As I said before a digital connection is only 1's and 0's. The SAME 1's and 0's are being sent by the DVD players and the DAC in the receiver converts them the same EVERY time so therefore the sound will be the same. If you in fact noticed a difference then you are unique and probably the only person that can notice the difference.

You say there was a difference. We know for a fact there couldn't be a difference. Could it be possible that you didn't have it connected properly and therefore you weren't comparing two sources connected by digital connections?

[N. Abstentia]

So did the Marantz sound better hooked up with the dig or the analog?

Analog by a HUGE margin!

In fact I think only the Panny sounded better digitally. There wasn't much difference with the Sony. My receiver is an Onkyo 989.

[hershon]

I don't think you've ever gave anybody any help here & all you can do is whine whine whine. I've got Richard Simmonds on the line for you now.


WOW....imagine that. Are you paying attention Hershon,class is in session !!!
I really don't think there is a need to carry on this farse of a post.
Hershon doesn't get it....he is not ever going to get it. Lets move on.


Jay

[shokhead]

Analog by a HUGE margin!

In fact I think only the Panny sounded better digitally. There wasn't much difference with the Sony. My receiver is an Onkyo 989.

Which means your Marantz has the better dac's?

[hershon]

I even have a witness when I connected 2 DVD players to the same JVC receiver. He heard the same thing. Again & I'll say this for infinutm, if a $20 DVD player will sound the same as a $5000 DVD player when connected by digital cables, the $20 DVD company would be advertising and promoting the heck out of this and the cheap masses in the world would be buying the $20 DVD player by the zillions.While I'm not questioning Nabstentia's results or anyone who has ever tested for themselves the all DVD players sound the same through a digital connection: 1. Do these people still believe in the Magic Bullet theory that killed Kennedy?



N. Abstentia heard the same thing because the SAME thing was being sent by ALL DVD players and being converted by the same DAC. There will always be no difference. As I said before a digital connection is only 1's and 0's. The SAME 1's and 0's are being sent by the DVD players and the DAC in the receiver converts them the same EVERY time so therefore the sound will be the same. If you in fact noticed a difference then you are unique and probably the only person that can notice the difference.

You say there was a difference. We know for a fact there couldn't be a difference. Could it be possible that you didn't have it connected properly and therefore you weren't comparing two sources connected by digital connections?

[anamorphic96]

Do you want a 20 dollar picture though. I sure wouldnt. :rolleyes: You do get a better picture when you spend more.

[hershon]

When I bought my Cambridge Audio Azur C-640 CD Player originally its analogue sound when using relatively expensive RCA diamonback cables was much better than either hearing the Cambridge Audio player through cheap RCA cables or through an Optical connection. However, I sold the Cambridge Audio player because the optical sound of my Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player was as good if not slightly better than the Cambridge Audio's analogue sound.

[N. Abstentia]

[QUOTE=hershon]I even have a witness when I connected 2 DVD players to the same JVC receiver. He heard the same thing. Again & I'll say this for infinutm, if a $20 DVD player will sound the same as a $5000 DVD player when connected by digital cables, the $20 DVD company would be advertising and promoting the heck out of this and the cheap masses in the world would be buying the $20 DVD player by the zillions.[QUOTE]

Well you can buy a $4000 Kia, or you can buy a $200,000 Ferrari. Both will get you to the grocery store and back the same exact way, but one does it with more style, has better features, is made better, has better internal parts, and will be around a lot longer.

[hershon]

Well you can buy a $4000 Kia, or you can buy a $200,000 Ferrari. Both will get you to the grocery store and back the same exact way, but one does it with more style, has better features, is made better, has better internal parts, and will be around a lot longer.[/QUOTE]

Well if I have the money of course I'll buy the $200,000 Ferrari. However if you're on a limited middle class budget, the $4,000 Kia will do just fine. I think most people on this board, are probably not millionaires & if they are, they can afford to buy whatever their heart pleases and don't need to go to this board to help them make choices in the first place.

[paul_pci]

I wonder if MadMax ever got his CD player.

[anamorphic96]

I wonder if MadMax ever got his CD player.

Hes probably thinking where a bunch a FREAKS. :p :p :p

Poor Guy !!! :(

[mjon99]

In general, is it better to let the DVD player do the decoding or the receiver. I do realize that if one is leaps and bounds "better" technology wise than the other it would probably be a smart bet to let that one do the decoding, but what if you're dealing with a DVD player and receiver with relatively the same technology of the same brand? Does it even matter at that point?

[shokhead]

I'll take that phone call anytime.
Hershon....i've forgotten more about home theater in the last 5 min, than you'll ever know!!

Your a joke and always will be.
Sooner or later the nice people on this board are going to see you for what you really are....a fake and a VERY small little man.


Jay
(your new teacher)

OK OK Your smart. So instead of this,take a breath and just keep explaining it and it will help alot more then doing a your dumb trip. This is a place where we are trying to get it.

[shokhead]

Well you can buy a $4000 Kia, or you can buy a $200,000 Ferrari. Both will get you to the grocery store and back the same exact way, but one does it with more style, has better features, is made better, has better internal parts, and will be around a lot longer.

Well if I have the money of course I'll buy the $200,000 Ferrari. However if you're on a limited middle class budget, the $4,000 Kia will do just fine. I think most people on this board, are probably not millionaires & if they are, they can afford to buy whatever their heart pleases and don't need to go to this board to help them make choices in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Give me the Kia anytime. Then its off to Vegas with a cool $196,000.

[noddin0ff]

When I bought my Cambridge Audio Azur C-640 CD Player originally its analogue sound when using relatively expensive RCA diamonback cables was much better than either hearing the Cambridge Audio player through cheap RCA cables or through an Optical connection. However, I sold the Cambridge Audio player because the optical sound of my Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player was as good if not slightly better than the Cambridge Audio's analogue sound.

So according to hershon's listening trials

HK digital out is better than CA audio out
CA audio out is better than CA digital out

While just about every informed person knows that there should be no difference between HK digital out and CA digital out, herson remains convinced there is. I think this is the only post where he's clearly stated what he compared and what he heard. Can't argue with his subjective opinion, insane though it may be. On the plus side, humor value has been pretty good.

[shokhead]

Ok,i tried. :mad:

[shokhead]

Which means your Marantz has the better dac's?

Is that right? Hard to belive with that moster of a reciever.

[hershon]

[QUOTE=noddin0ff]So according to hershon's listening trials
"HK digital out is better than CA audio out CA audio out is better than CA digital out
While just about every informed person knows that there should be no difference between HK digital out and CA digital out"

I'm pretty sure (not 100% though) I played just that in front of someone who is respected on this board & he heard the difference as well. So take that for whatever its worth.

[noddin0ff]

[QUOTE=noddin0ff]So according to hershon's listening trials
"HK digital out is better than CA audio out CA audio out is better than CA digital out
While just about every informed person knows that there should be no difference between HK digital out and CA digital out"

I'm pretty sure (not 100% though) I played just that in front of someone who is respected on this board & he heard the difference as well. So take that for whatever its worth.

If two pairs of ears hear a difference, and you're happy, what it's worth to you is up to you! If you have any doubt, the advice of people on this board can help you conduct more critical listening trials in the future...if you take their often good advice.

[shokhead]

Is that right? Hard to belive with that moster of a reciever.


Still no answer?

[paul_pci]

Who was it? And why aren't we hearing from him on your behalf?

Yep, your still a joke.


Jay

He's refering to me mister maple leaf. I've posted this before and I'll post it again. The listening trials go something like this: Hershon originally had a JVC DVD/Receiver and then purchased the now infamolus HK DVD player. He plugged the HK digitally into the JVC and did A/B switching on CDs in my presence. Inexplicably, there was a noteable difference between the two playbacks. The HK has a stronger, fuller presence and the JVC did not. As I've related in other threads, neither Hershon nor I can explain a difference that, by definition should not exist. The other listening test was when he got the now infamous Cambridge and by this time he had the Denon 3801. The listening test that I was present for was the Cambridege (analog) vs. the HK (optical). There was a slight difference and we both agreed that it certainly wasn't a $500 difference. Then, the magnamous Hershon let me take this Cambridge player that he already had sold to someone else to my place so I could A/B on my system. My results were similar. The Cambridge (analog) had a cleaner sound than my Sony 300 disc (optical), but strangely enough, it had a leaner and smaller soundstage. I had another friend present for that A/B listening. Again, I agree with Hershon, as did this other friend, that there was a slight difference in sound, but it certainly wasn't a $500 differnce, hence the reselling of the Cambridge. As far as I remember, I didn't hear a A/B of both the HK and Cambridge on digital hook ups because there wasn't enough time, as he had to ship it to the buyer. But, there was a difference as I previously stated between the HK (optical, plugged into the JVC) and the built in player on the JVC, which I cannot account for, because, again, by definition there shouldn't be a difference.

Paul.

[LEAFS264]

He's refering to me mister maple leaf. I've posted this before and I'll post it again. The listening trials go something like this: Hershon originally had a JVC DVD/Receiver and then purchased the now infamolus HK DVD player. He plugged the HK digitally into the JVC and did A/B switching on CDs in my presence. Inexplicably, there was a noteable difference between the two playbacks. The HK has a stronger, fuller presence and the JVC did not. As I've related in other threads, neither Hershon nor I can explain a difference that, by definition should not exist. The other listening test was when he got the now infamous Cambridge and by this time he had the Denon 3801. The listening test that I was present for was the Cambridege (analog) vs. the HK (optical). There was a slight difference and we both agreed that it certainly wasn't a $500 difference. Then, the magnamous Hershon let me take this Cambridge player that he already had sold to someone else to my place so I could A/B on my system. My results were similar. The Cambridge (analog) had a cleaner sound than my Sony 300 disc (optical), but strangely enough, it had a leaner and smaller soundstage. I had another friend present for that A/B listening. Again, I agree with Hershon, as did this other friend, that there was a slight difference in sound, but it certainly wasn't a $500 differnce, hence the reselling of the Cambridge. As far as I remember, I didn't hear a A/B of both the HK and Cambridge on digital hook ups because there wasn't enough time, as he had to ship it to the buyer. But, there was a difference as I previously stated between the HK (optical, plugged into the JVC) and the built in player on the JVC, which I cannot account for, because, again, by definition there shouldn't be a difference.

Paul.




Yes, but paul, the JVC is a receiver dvd combo player.....no cables.
You had to plug in the HK player.
Not a good test. There would be some difference in sound.

Jay

[paul_pci]

Yes, but paul, the JVC is a receiver dvd combo player.....no cables.
You had to plug in the HK player.
Not a good test. There would be some difference in sound.

Jay

No there shouldn't be, theoretically, because the JVC is doing all the processing of the CD's info whether it's in the JVC unit itself or being transported via optical by the HK. Try again.

[noddin0ff]

Yes, but paul, the JVC is a receiver dvd combo player.....no cables.
You had to plug in the HK player.
Not a good test. There would be some difference in sound.

Jay

I'm not so sure. In one theory the built in JVC DVD is sending the digital audio signal to the same DAC that the HK is sending it's digital signal to. Did anyone mention the model # of the JVC unit? What if the JVC DVD component of the hybrid unit ALSO includes a second DAC (as if they just dropped in an entire DVD player along side a A/V receiver. That could make a lot of sense because a lot of those parameters you can set on a stand-alone DVD player for the analog out sound (vocal boost, etc) would have to be built into the features of the receiver component if you removed the JVC DVD's DAC. I'll bet that it's cheaper to put two complete units in the box than to redesign a receiver from scratch. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the JVC DVD player has its own DAC and is delivering an analog signal to the JVC Receiver side. The HK is delivering digital to the receiver...hence the difference. Then we can all be right. Hershon won't be as crazy as he seems. Paul keeps his integrity. And we all go home wiser. Any electrical engineer here to look inside the JVC?

[noddin0ff]

What do you mean " try again"

Don't get smart with me kid or you'll get a slap like your man Hershon.
I'm just trying to find a "reason" for this "sound difference" You two seem to be able to notice. Even though the rest of us know your both full of s-h-i-t.

Jay

Hey, Hey, settle down. I feel your pain too, but for the most part you've been including intelligent input with them fighting words...you do need to try again, IMO also.

[ericl]

No more fighting no more biting!

You guys (Hersh & Leafs) need to cool it for while. You are BOTH TEMPORARILY suspended so that they can cool off a little. Sorry guys, you'll be able to post again in a few days.

Be nice. Carry yourselves like you're all in the same room together, and the person you're debating with is a LOT BIGGER THAN YOU.

-Eric

[Geoffcin]

Although I really hate to see it go this far, I'm glad you stepped in when you did. When threads get this carried away it's just more than a moderator can deal with. I did trim a few of the more "colorful" posts out as soon as I saw them though. Let's hope this is the end of this particular flame war.