SPL readings On My Unscientific DB SetUp for Denons

[hershon]

I earlier posted that when I used the SPL meter on my Denon receiver the DB levels using their 75 db test tones produced terrible sound- my DB's from the SPL reading (SPL aimed at the ceiling from my listening position, bass/treble at 0, all extraneous noise from my apartment turned off) were -7, -7, -8 for front speakers, -6 & -9 for rears & -9 for sub. Anyway, when I used the trial and error setting of 0 DB's for all speakers except the sub which is +2, the CD sound for me is fantastic. Shokhead suggested I read what my SPL levels are for these settings. When I then took the SPL settings for "0" on all speakers, +2 for sub I got the following: Front Left 81, Front Center 82, Front Right 83, Rear Right 81, Rear Left 83, Sub 84. What exactly do these numbers mean? Would you recommend tweaking these settings then- if so to what? Would you use the center setting as my foundation and therefore change the settings to +1 for Front Left, 0 Front Center, -1 Front Right, Rear Right +1, Rear Left -1 and Sub -2? Actually I just tried those settings out and they still didn't sound as good as 0 DB's for everything except +2 for sub.

[paul_pci]

Ideally, they should all register the same (perhaps, excepting the sub), and it sounds like they're all really close. Most people use the main left and right for the reference point and adjust the remaining speakers. If anything, you should definitely equalize the front left and right so that it won't screw up any stereo imaging. Then again, I'll come by next week with the DVD calibration disk and use their test tones which are more accurate and might produce different readings.

[hershon]

Maybe I've stumbled unto the Denon Top Secret Code numbers! I decided to try some other methods since it appears I prefer DB's at an SP level over 80 based on my unscientific settings. First since the center read at 82 on the SPL at 0 denon DB settings, I thought why not adjust the Denon DB's on all speakers so they'd match the centers 0. I did that and I got
+1 FR, 0 Center, -1 FR, Surround Right +2, Sur L -2 & Sub -2. I then listened to my test CD and again it was mediocore at my all natural 5 channel setting- basically I heard the left and right surrounds and the fronts blended in but I wasn't aware of their presence. I then said why don't I use 80 as my SPL level for all the speakers and I got -1 FL, -3 Center, -3 FR, 0 Sur R, -4 Sur L & -3 Sub. Again the sound was similar to the settings above. For some reason my everything at 0 DB setting except +2 for the sub, creates a much more fuller sound at the the all natural 5 channel sound for CD's and both my left, rights and center sound area have now filled the room instead of just the back area with the SPL settings. What is going on?

[N. Abstentia]

I'll tell you what's going on. You're thinking too much!

I have a setup method that is very radical and unheard of, but it works for me. It involves the SPL meter..any SPL meter will do. Now take your meter and throw it in the trashcan..okay we're ready. Now we pop in a good 5.1 DVD soundtrack and sit down and use...gulp..our EARS!

Yes, the best method is to set it where it sounds best to you, no matter what the SPL meter says. That can be very very misleading if you don't fully understand the meter, speaker distances, and room acoustics.

Also I would think that using a 2 channel CD on '5 channel natural' would probably be the worst thing to use to test sound quality and surround levels. How ironic that '5 channel natural' is the most UNnatural thing you could possibly have??!! You're taking a 2 channel CD and MAKING UP the 3 other channels. NO. NO! WHY?!??! My GOD!

So, what have we learned here?
1) Adjust it to where you like the sound. Who cares what some SPL meter says? Does it have ears? Will it be the one listening to the music?

2) If you want 5.1 channel CD's, get them encoded in 5.1 by getting them on SACD or DVD-A. Don't expect some fake DSP mode to sound good.

3) To test your 5.1 sound, USE A 5.1 SOURCE!

Good luck ;)

[hershon]

I totally absolutely uneqivocally disagree with you. Hey, if everything was out on DVD-A at affordable prices I'd replace my normal CD's if I can find the money. I don't see anything unnatural hearing my 2 channel CD on 5.1 channels as long as the music is not being electronically altered (that's called pro logic). You prefer 2 channel sound fine, I don't, as far as I'm concerned there is no right and wrong. But being that I want to listen to 2 channel CD's on 5 channels all naturally, you'd think I therefore would want to listen to this the best way I can. You prefer 2 channel sound therefore it makes no sense to adjust your system for 5 channel natural sound (this is excluding DVD-A's) and vice versa for me!

[N. Abstentia]

Well theres no real difference between Pro Logic and what you're doing. You're taking a 2 channel source and asking a DSP chip to 'make something up' to send to the other 3 channels. Those channels did not exist, they were electronically created..just like Pro Logic.

And don't get me wrong, that's fine if you like it but calling it 'natural sound' is like saying Pamela Anderson has 'natural boobs'. It's about as fake as you can get :)

[Wireworm5]

Hershon it doesn't matter what db level you are setting your speakers at. What does matter is that all your speakers are at the same db level at your listening postion. If one speaker is louder than the other then that speaker masks the other speaker merely by drowning them out. Assuming that you have calibrated your settings correctly then I have to conclude that your ears haven't adjusted to the more accurate sound presentation. This may take a week or two to re-adust to how things are suppose to sound. Also maybe other settings need to be tweaked on your Denon like delay time to compensate for room size etc..
However like you I went with my ears for the sub setting, since at equal levels to the other speakers the bass sounded weak. But I have read that the sub is suppose to be 6dbs louder because of the way or ears perceive low frequencies.

[hershon]

Pro Logic as far as I know takes a 2 channel signal and then electronically changes it into 5 different channels. "5 Channel All Natural Sound" takes a 2 channel signal, puts the same exact signal on the front left and rear left speakers, front right and rear right speakers and for the center channel combines the front left and front right. I don't see how this is really artificially changing the natural sound. I hate implants though!



Well theres no real difference between Pro Logic and what you're doing. You're taking a 2 channel source and asking a DSP chip to 'make something up' to send to the other 3 channels. Those channels did not exist, they were electronically created..just like Pro Logic.

And don't get me wrong, that's fine if you like it but calling it 'natural sound' is like saying Pamela Anderson has 'natural boobs'. It's about as fake as you can get :)

[hershon]

One thing I will acknowledge that is not figured in the equation is, alot of us, including myself,
have some auditory problems to begin with- several years ago I had a major problem with my ears and had to have them tested and the results revealed (which had nothing to do with the problem at the time which since cured itself) that there was a noticable loss of hearing on one ear. Therefore maybe its possible that if I , or anyone elses hearing isn't naturally balanced to begin with, setting up DB's based on SPL tone testings may not necessarily represent the optimum settings for listening given that.

[shokhead]

I'll tell you what's going on. You're thinking too much!

I have a setup method that is very radical and unheard of, but it works for me. It involves the SPL meter..any SPL meter will do. Now take your meter and throw it in the trashcan..okay we're ready. Now we pop in a good 5.1 DVD soundtrack and sit down and use...gulp..our EARS!

Yes, the best method is to set it where it sounds best to you, no matter what the SPL meter says. That can be very very misleading if you don't fully understand the meter, speaker distances, and room acoustics.

Also I would think that using a 2 channel CD on '5 channel natural' would probably be the worst thing to use to test sound quality and surround levels. How ironic that '5 channel natural' is the most UNnatural thing you could possibly have??!! You're taking a 2 channel CD and MAKING UP the 3 other channels. NO. NO! WHY?!??! My GOD!

So, what have we learned here?
1) Adjust it to where you like the sound. Who cares what some SPL meter says? Does it have ears? Will it be the one listening to the music?

2) If you want 5.1 channel CD's, get them encoded in 5.1 by getting them on SACD or DVD-A. Don't expect some fake DSP mode to sound good.

3) To test your 5.1 sound, USE A 5.1 SOURCE!

Good luck ;)

Well then if you want to talk about natural sound then you better have super towers all around and no sub. Know what 2 channel stereo is,flat stereo. Whats the last concert you went to that had a stage with speakers on it 6-8 feet apart? There ya go. Everything we have is reproduced,remixed and remastered and stereo. Right,who cares what the spl meter says,i guess,oh most of use is wrong to use it and every rightup in a mag says to use it but i suppose the bottom line is,if it works for ya and it sounds good to you, thats it. Oh,every heard of DTS music disc's? 5.1 music. One more,you say do what sounds best but dont expect some dsp mode to sound good even if he likes it. Which is it? By the way,i'm a dsp mode hater but i do use 5 channel stereo,kinda fills the room up abit more.

[anamorphic96]

Dolby Pro Logic is only 4 channels. Left,Center,Right and surround. The surround channel is mono. It takes the left and right and any inofrmation that is both identical in both amplitude and phase is routed to the Center. Information encoded with a disteinct phase shift is routed to the surround channel.

Pro Logic II and IIx are variations on this and capable of matrixing out more channels.

[N. Abstentia]

Well then if you want to talk about natural sound then you better have super towers all around and no sub.

Yep, that's my preferred setup. My 2 channel system is Paradigm Active 40's with no sub. The Active's actually outperform most subs I've heard.


Know what 2 channel stereo is,flat stereo. Whats the last concert you went to that had a stage with speakers on it 6-8 feet apart?

When's the last time I've had to provide sound for 10,000 people in my living room?


Oh,every heard of DTS music disc's? 5.1 music.

Yes, I have about 20 of them.

One more,you say do what sounds best but dont expect some dsp mode to sound good even if he likes it. Which is it? By the way,i'm a dsp mode hater but i do use 5 channel stereo,kinda fills the room up abit more.

There's a huge difference in descrete multi channel audio and some fake DSP that 'fills up' the missing information.

Again, I'll use our friend Pamela as an example. If you like that, fine. I prefer them natural and not plastic. DSP is plastic. Fake. False.

[N. Abstentia]

Pro Logic as far as I know takes a 2 channel signal and then electronically changes it into 5 different channels. "5 Channel All Natural Sound" takes a 2 channel signal, puts the same exact signal on the front left and rear left speakers, front right and rear right speakers and for the center channel combines the front left and front right. I don't see how this is really artificially changing the natural sound. I hate implants though!

So what's the difference? The source is 2 channel, the result is 6 channels. In between there is some digital magic that makes up the information that WAS NOT THERE to begin with.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, if you like it then that's great! But calling it 'natural' is just wrong. Saying it's not digitally altered is wrong.

[toenail]

Hershon- Are you trying to achieve good sound in A) Dolby Digital 5.1 B) Pro Logic (II or IIx) C) 5 channel stereo? It sounds like you're trying to get good sound from a 2 channel source reproduced in 5 channel stereo.

If you want multi channel music playback from a 2 channel source that loosly mimics DD 5.1 or DVD-A/SACD, just choose Pro Logic (II or IIx) Music setting on your receiver (assuming it has that option).This assumes output levels are where the manufacturer suggests for DD 5.1 set up, I believe 85db @ 0db reference.

If you want to entertain yourself or others while moving about the room, then try the 5 channel stereo, as that was what it was intended for. Don't expect that 5 channel stereo will sound anything like DD 5.1, DVD-A/SACD, Pro Logic (II or IIx) or any other configuration you can think of, it's not supposed to.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'll tell you what's going on. You're thinking too much!

Word on that.


I have a setup method that is very radical and unheard of, but it works for me. It involves the SPL meter..any SPL meter will do. Now take your meter and throw it in the trashcan..okay we're ready. Now we pop in a good 5.1 DVD soundtrack and sit down and use...gulp..our EARS!

Actually it is heard of, but it is plain wrong. Our ears can tell us what sound good or bad, but they are lousy measuring devices. Soundtracks are dynamic sources which change frequently over time. Also soundtracks are sure to stimulate frequencies that cause room modes and nodes. With the information changing so rapidly from second to second, it is impossible to use a soundtrack to balance your system. Our ears cannot tell use that one speaker is 1-2 decibals off unless at least two channels are playing together. With two channels playing together you are hearing a sum of the two channels, instead of what is going on in each channel.


Yes, the best method is to set it where it sounds best to you, no matter what the SPL meter says. That can be very very misleading if you don't fully understand the meter, speaker distances, and room acoustics.

Everyone speaks of setting up speaker distances equidistantly. Room acoustics aside it is hard to know what sounds best with no reference. A SPL meter provides a base reference to which you can set things where it sounds best to you. If the only person that listens to your hometheater is you, then adjusting for personal taste only is cool. If you have guests, then possibly your own reference(without the benefit of accurate measuring devices) may not sound very balanced or good to them.


Also I would think that using a 2 channel CD on '5 channel natural' would probably be the worst thing to use to test sound quality and surround levels. How ironic that '5 channel natural' is the most UNnatural thing you could possibly have??!! You're taking a 2 channel CD and MAKING UP the 3 other channels. NO. NO! WHY?!??! My GOD!

Agreed.


So, what have we learned here?
1) Adjust it to where you like the sound. Who cares what some SPL meter says? Does it have ears? Will it be the one listening to the music?

The microphone in a SPL meter is probably more accurate in terms of measuring amplitude than our ears are. A accurate meter measures linearly across the entire frequency range of hearing. Our ears do not. Studio playback chains are calibrated, so why shouldn't home playback chains be also.


2) If you want 5.1 channel CD's, get them encoded in 5.1 by getting them on SACD or DVD-A. Don't expect some fake DSP mode to sound good.

Word!


3) To test your 5.1 sound, USE A 5.1 SOURCE!

Good luck ;)

Agreed

[shokhead]

There's a huge difference in descrete multi channel audio and some fake DSP that 'fills up' the missing information.

Again, I'll use our friend Pamela as an example. If you like that, fine. I prefer them natural and not plastic. DSP is plastic. Fake. False.

No kidding. I dont think i was trying to say anything about 5 ch stereo being the same as multi-channel audio,was i? 5 channel stereo is ok if you like it,i do. I like DTS misic disc's better and some DVD-A and SACD are even better. The whole HT thing is reproduced,come on. The only natural thing is at the concert or recording studio. Just a question,how many of you only have 2 speakers in your car? Thats what i thought.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

One thing I will acknowledge that is not figured in the equation is, alot of us, including myself,
have some auditory problems to begin with- several years ago I had a major problem with my ears and had to have them tested and the results revealed (which had nothing to do with the problem at the time which since cured itself) that there was a noticable loss of hearing on one ear. Therefore maybe its possible that if I , or anyone elses hearing isn't naturally balanced to begin with, setting up DB's based on SPL tone testings may not necessarily represent the optimum settings for listening given that.

You know it depends on if you hearing loss was global, or frequency based. If you hearing loss was global, then only the speakers that shade that side of the head would be effected. If it was only frequency based, then you would only experience a inbalance when the frequencies effected are presented to the ear.

Whatever hearing problem that was in play, the system should still be balanced as a whole, and then adjusted to taste after that. Got to have a foundation to build a building right?

[hershon]

I should clarify that most of my posts to begin with are in reference to CD's not DVDs which I'm not that picky over. In the case of CD's, as opposed to DVD-A's, for my hearing, as Shokhead I think implied, "All Natural 5 channel & sub sound" fills up my room and ears much more so than say either 2 speaker or 2 speaker and a sub sound, as for me, personally, it gives the music more depth. Why it does so, I can not give a technical and/or scientific explanation for. When I used the SPL settings, albeit digital, against: 1. Denon test tones using a 75 db set up, 2. Denon test tones using an 80 db set up and finally Denon test tones using the DB for the center speaker as ground 0, the sound when listening to my 5 all natural channel mode, still sounded much better when listening to CD's when I set all of my 5 satellite speaker DB levels to 0 and my sub to +2. The difference in all these settings with my unscientific one is my unscientific one gave the music much more depth while the SPL settings seemed to reduce the "soundstage" to one spot. I'm willing to concede I might be able to get different DB results with a "DVD tester" which I'm hoping Paul PCI can do and will also try analogue & digital readings. As I truly am not a stubborn masochist, if the settings from one of these tests produces better 5 channel CD sound, I'll use those settings instead of my 0 db & +2 for my sub. As Far as I'm concerned, prologic, Matrix, etc., changes the sound & this mode doesn't (or if technically it does, it does so in a way I can accept it).



Hershon- Are you trying to achieve good sound in A) Dolby Digital 5.1 B) Pro Logic (II or IIx) C) 5 channel stereo? It sounds like you're trying to get good sound from a 2 channel source reproduced in 5 channel stereo.

If you want multi channel music playback from a 2 channel source that loosly mimics DD 5.1 or DVD-A/SACD, just choose Pro Logic (II or IIx) Music setting on your receiver (assuming it has that option).This assumes output levels are where the manufacturer suggests for DD 5.1 set up, I believe 85db @ 0db reference.

If you want to entertain yourself or others while moving about the room, then try the 5 channel stereo, as that was what it was intended for. Don't expect that 5 channel stereo will sound anything like DD 5.1, DVD-A/SACD, Pro Logic (II or IIx) or any other configuration you can think of, it's not supposed to.

[N. Abstentia]

No kidding. I dont think i was trying to say anything about 5 ch stereo being the same as multi-channel audio,was i? 5 channel stereo is ok if you like it,i do. I like DTS misic disc's better and some DVD-A and SACD are even better. The whole HT thing is reproduced,come on. The only natural thing is at the concert or recording studio. Just a question,how many of you only have 2 speakers in your car? Thats what i thought.

Well not to nitpick here (yeah right!) but if you consider car speakers like you would home speakers then I just have two speakers in my car...left & right. Of course there is a sub, but that's only because the 5" speakers in the doors produce no bass. It's there, it's just not in the same location.

So really now that you mention it, my car system is just like my home system! Only difference is that the drivers in my home system are all in the same box. But if you want to talk individual drivers, my home 2 channel system has SIX drivers while my car only has FIVE drivers..and this is my former IASCA competition setup :)

[Quagmire]

I earlier posted that when I used the SPL meter on my Denon receiver the DB levels using their 75 db test tones produced terrible sound- my DB's from the SPL reading (SPL aimed at the ceiling from my listening position, bass/treble at 0, all extraneous noise from my apartment turned off) were -7, -7, -8 for front speakers, -6 & -9 for rears & -9 for sub. Anyway, when I used the trial and error setting of 0 DB's for all speakers except the sub which is +2, the CD sound for me is fantastic. Shokhead suggested I read what my SPL levels are for these settings. When I then took the SPL settings for "0" on all speakers, +2 for sub I got the following: Front Left 81, Front Center 82, Front Right 83, Rear Right 81, Rear Left 83, Sub 84. What exactly do these numbers mean? Would you recommend tweaking these settings then- if so to what? Would you use the center setting as my foundation and therefore change the settings to +1 for Front Left, 0 Front Center, -1 Front Right, Rear Right +1, Rear Left -1 and Sub -2? Actually I just tried those settings out and they still didn't sound as good as 0 DB's for everything except +2 for sub.
Hershon,
I've just read over all of these posts and I'd like to chime in if you don't mind. I think where you may be going astray is that you are balancing your speakers so that they will be set correctly to play sources mixed for 5.1 reproduction, but then you are using a 2 channel source to audibly test the results. It doesn't matter that it is the "5 channel stereo" mode or "natural sound" or whatever else you want to call it. It is still a derrived 5 channel mix of a 2 channel source. What you need to be doing in order to test your speaker balancing results is listening to something mixed for 5.1 sound reproduction. Balance your system per SPL meter and then... and I know this is a novel idea... put on a DVD with a 5.1 soundtrack in DD or DTS! How does it sound? If it sounds good, which it should, then you have accomplished all that you were suppose to accomplish by this setup. These test disc or even the test generators on your receiver have NOTHING to do with setting up 5 channel stereo. For me, ALL such DSP mode have to be set by ear and they usually DO NOT match the settings made by SPL measurements for a 5.1 source. There is nothing wrong with using those settings as a base line to start with but chances are none of the DSP modes are going to sound at thier optimum when left at those settings. I assume that you realize you can set seperate levels for each of these DSP modes like 5 channel stereo, matrix, jazz club, etc... Unless things have changed with Denon, you are able to set individual levels for each of these modes. The only exception to doing this would be the Pro Logic modes as they are meant to produce a matrixed 5.1 surround sound which does require speakers balanced by SPL meter. Is this making any sense to you? I hope so. I think you are really confusing yourself by trying a test method which does not correspond to the original setup criteria. Setup the receiver as we have already described for your DVD and other 5.1 soundtracks, then... set the individual levels for the other DSP modes by ear to your taste. That's what I've been doing for years and it works perfectly well. I think it will work for you too.

Q

[hershon]

Thanks Quagmire but I'm a little confused & think you may be misunderstanding how Denon asks to set up its DB's. On Denon, they have a 6 seperate channel (all speakers plus sub) "graph" if you want to call it, that goes from -12 to +12 DB's which goes up by increments at 1. A person starts with everything set on the chart at 0 DB's. You are then suppose to use an SPL, set at Slow and "C" and one channel on the chart at a time keep increasing or decreasing the db's on the chart till the test tones emmitted on the chart (which go louder for every increment upwards etc. & downwards for every decrease)bring about an SPL reading of 75. You then move to the next channel etc. & do the same thing and so forth. When you are finally done, each channel goes to 75 on the SPL, you press enter and these become your new DB levels on the receiver. The volume put out by the test tones can not be varied by the receivers volume and as an added precaution I have bass/treble set at 0.

Are you trying to say that these levels are perfect when I watch a surround sound 5 channel DVD but if I then try to play a 2 channel CD, regardless of whether I listen to it
at 2 speaker sound, 2 speaker and a sub sound, 5 speaker and a sub natural sound, etc.,
the db's set by the above test will not be applicable and hence they are only applicable to
DVD's played at either dolby digital or DTS on 5-7 speakers & a sub?



Hershon,
I've just read over all of these posts and I'd like to chime in if you don't mind. I think where you may be going astray is that you are balancing your speakers so that they will be set correctly to play sources mixed for 5.1 reproduction, but then you are using a 2 channel source to audibly test the results. It doesn't matter that it is the "5 channel stereo" mode or "natural sound" or whatever else you want to call it. It is still a derrived 5 channel mix of a 2 channel source. What you need to be doing in order to test your speaker balancing results is listening to something mixed for 5.1 sound reproduction. Balance your system per SPL meter and then... and I know this is a novel idea... put on a DVD with a 5.1 soundtrack in DD or DTS! How does it sound? If it sounds good, which it should, then you have accomplished all that you were suppose to accomplish by this setup. These test disc or even the test generators on your receiver have NOTHING to do with setting up 5 channel stereo. For me, ALL such DSP mode have to be set by ear and they usually DO NOT match the settings made by SPL measurements for a 5.1 source. There is nothing wrong with using those settings as a base line to start with but chances are none of the DSP modes are going to sound at thier optimum when left at those settings. I assume that you realize you can set seperate levels for each of these DSP modes like 5 channel stereo, matrix, jazz club, etc... Unless things have changed with Denon, you are able to set individual levels for each of these modes. The only exception to doing this would be the Pro Logic modes as they are meant to produce a matrixed 5.1 surround sound which does require speakers balanced by SPL meter. Is this making any sense to you? I hope so. I think you are really confusing yourself by trying a test method which does not correspond to the original setup criteria. Setup the receiver as we have already described for your DVD and other 5.1 soundtracks, then... set the individual levels for the other DSP modes by ear to your taste. That's what I've been doing for years and it works perfectly well. I think it will work for you too.

Q

[Wireworm5]

I am not familiar with the Denon either. But on my Yamaha the speaker settings will be different for each soundfield. You have to save the parameter settings for each soundfield. If I calibrate my speakers for 6 channels stereo this will not be the optimal setting for 70mm Spectacle soundfield .Maybe the Denon has this feature as well with a different name?

[hershon]

I am not familiar with the Denon either. But on my Yamaha the speaker settings will be different for each soundfield. You have to save the parameter settings for each soundfield. If I calibrate my speakers for 6 channels stereo this will not be the optimal setting for 70mm Spectacle soundfield .Maybe the Denon has this feature as well with a different name?

As far as I know: 1. The settings are not for one particular sound field, 2. You can not save
different sound fields ot inputs, thus if you have to have a different dbs when watching TV & hearing TV sound as opposed to say hearing the CD, you will have to manually change the settings.

[Wireworm5]

As far as I know: 1. The settings are not for one particular sound field, 2. You can not save
different sound fields DBA, thus if you have to have a different DBA when watching TV & hearing TV sound as opposed to say hearing the CD, you will have to manually change the settings.

Those are inputs, soundfields are like Rock, Hall, movie surround, disco. Does your Denon have soundfields?

[kfalls]

I am familiar with Denon owning an AVR-3300 myself. There are several misconceptions here I will try to clear up as to why differnet level and formats may sound different.

First you stated your original settings as (L) -7, (C) -7, (R) -7, (RL) -6, (RR) -9 and sub -9. Just turning the volume control 7db will give you (L) 0, (C) 0, (R) 0, (RL) 1, (RR) -2 and sub -2 which is very close to what you say is giving you better sound (all levels at 0db with the sub @ +2). The Radio Shack analog meter requires +4db of compensation in the bass because it reads 4db low. Adding these corrections provide compensated levels of (L) 0, (C) 0, (R) 0, (RL) 1, (RR) -2 and sub 0 which is not that much different than original except you now have the bass corrected.

The differences in levels and sound could also be associated with room boundaries and materials. A speaker setup in a corner will sound different than one in open air because walls will reinforce some frequencies more than others. Soft or hard surfaces surrounding the speaker will also affect the sound. Also, different receivers handle bass management differently. I know on my Denon the sub is not on in the "Direct" format, but is during the Stereo, 5-channel Stereo and other DSP formats. This may also account for some of your difference is sound.

The comments about testing using a two channel source with multi-channel formats is also valid. A two-channel source playing in a Dolby Pro Logic format will have derived center (L+R) and surround (L-R) channels. The surrounds will not be full range since DLP limits the range to 100Hz-7000Hz and the surrounds are mono not discrete. Dolby Digital has all full-range channels except for the ".1" sub channel and the surrounds are discrete.

Because of strange differences in sound I very seldom use the DSP formats, they either have too little clarity, too much echo, or too much bass. They were cool at first, but lost their attraction quickly. Hope this helps.

[hershon]

[QUOTE=kfalls]

First you stated your original settings as (L) -7, (C) -7, (R) -7, (RL) -6, (RR) -9 and sub -9. Just turning the volume control 7db will give you (L) 0, (C) 0, (R) 0, (RL) 1, (RR) -2 and sub -2 which is very close to what you say is giving you better sound (all levels at 0db with the sub @ +2).

Thanks but I don't quite understand what you're saying as the original settings you mentioned when using the Debnons test tones trying to have each channel match to 75 DBs set the speaker volume/DB level to the same DB as the test. IE left front -7 is set as -7. Where does you 0 come in and so fourth or alternatively how do you come up with your second set of numbers that resemble mine? Any information/clarification appreciated.

[shokhead]

It seems something as easy and basic as setting speakers has gotten out of control. Test tone,master volume at 0db,set each speaker to 75 or 80db,thats what most use and the sub a few db's more. Thats it,you basic speaker level setup.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It seems something as easy and basic as setting speakers has gotten out of control. Test tone,master volume at 0db,set each speaker to 75 or 80db,thats what most use and the sub a few db's more. Thats it,you basic speaker level setup.

Thank you!!!!

[Quagmire]

Thanks Quagmire but I'm a little confused & think you may be misunderstanding how Denon asks to set up its DB's. On Denon, they have a 6 seperate channel (all speakers plus sub) "graph" if you want to call it, that goes from -12 to +12 DB's which goes up by increments at 1. A person starts with everything set on the chart at 0 DB's. You are then suppose to use an SPL, set at Slow and "C" and one channel on the chart at a time keep increasing or decreasing the db's on the chart till the test tones emmitted on the chart (which go louder for every increment upwards etc. & downwards for every decrease)bring about an SPL reading of 75. You then move to the next channel etc. & do the same thing and so forth. When you are finally done, each channel goes to 75 on the SPL, you press enter and these become your new DB levels on the receiver. The volume put out by the test tones can not be varied by the receivers volume and as an added precaution I have bass/treble set at 0.

Are you trying to say that these levels are perfect when I watch a surround sound 5 channel DVD but if I then try to play a 2 channel CD, regardless of whether I listen to it
at 2 speaker sound, 2 speaker and a sub sound, 5 speaker and a sub natural sound, etc.,
the db's set by the above test will not be applicable and hence they are only applicable to
DVD's played at either dolby digital or DTS on 5-7 speakers & a sub?
I am familiar with how to go about calibrating and setting speaker levels on Denon equipment.

"Are you trying to say that these levels are perfect when I watch a surround sound 5 channel DVD but if I then try to play a 2 channel CD, regardless of whether I listen to it
at 2 speaker sound, 2 speaker and a sub sound, 5 speaker and a sub natural sound, etc.,
the db's set by the above test will not be applicable and hence they are only applicable to
DVD's played at either dolby digital or DTS on 5-7 speakers & a sub?"

Now you're getting it ol' boy! Yes this is what I'm saying. Balancing the speaker levels is for 5.1/6.1/7.1 playback from any discrete 5.1 or 6.1 encoded source; whether that be from DVD, HDTV, etc... it doesn't matter. It isn't for setting up these various DSP modes.

If you engage the receiver's test mode, the tone generator will circulate through the speakers one by one. When you are finished and you press the enter button it save these settings globally. But you can also set individual levels for each of these sound modes. There should be a direct input on your remote or on the receiver's face plate to allow this. So set up the global settings per SPL meter, then switch to whichever mode you want to adjust (such as 5 channel stereo) and adjust those levels by ear to taste. You should write all of these numbers down so that if something happens to reset them all to "zero", you can quickly and easily set them again. Try it.

Q

[Quagmire]

Thank you!!!!
Yes, I'm about to add an AMEN!!!

Q

[hershon]

OK I can understand in theory that SPL controls are used to set DB levels when you're playing DVD's. No question, I understand Kabish. What I don't understand however, and this is totally irresponsible of all these manufacturers is, if playing CD's (lets limit this to CD's not DVD-A's) which most DVD users play I'd conservatively guess 5 CD'sfor every DVD played, that these settings have nothing whatsoever to do with Cd's whether you play them on 2 channel, 2 channel & sub, 5 channel, etc., then they're messing up the sound balances for these poor suspecting people. All that would be needed then for these University of Cambodia graduates who write manuals is the caveat these setting aply to DVDs only do not use for CDs. Obviously this has not been done. Whokle thing makes no sense.



I am familiar with how to go about calibrating and setting speaker levels on Denon equipment.

"Are you trying to say that these levels are perfect when I watch a surround sound 5 channel DVD but if I then try to play a 2 channel CD, regardless of whether I listen to it
at 2 speaker sound, 2 speaker and a sub sound, 5 speaker and a sub natural sound, etc.,
the db's set by the above test will not be applicable and hence they are only applicable to
DVD's played at either dolby digital or DTS on 5-7 speakers & a sub?"

Now you're getting it ol' boy! Yes this is what I'm saying. Balancing the speaker levels is for 5.1/6.1/7.1 playback from any discrete 5.1 or 6.1 encoded source; whether that be from DVD, HDTV, etc... it doesn't matter. It isn't for setting up these various DSP modes.

If you engage the receiver's test mode, the tone generator will circulate through the speakers one by one. When you are finished and you press the enter button it save these settings globally. But you can also set individual levels for each of these sound modes. There should be a direct input on your remote or on the receiver's face plate to allow this. So set up the global settings per SPL meter, then switch to whichever mode you want to adjust (such as 5 channel stereo) and adjust those levels by ear to taste. You should write all of these numbers down so that if something happens to reset them all to "zero", you can quickly and easily set them again. Try it.

Q

[shokhead]

When you set the speaker levels,it doesnt effect the recording on the cd so to speak. Its only making sure that each speaker is set to the same level so when you use the master volume,its not unbalanced. Your music is still going to have low passages and loud passages. In fact if the speakers are not set right,that would be all screwed up. Lets say you have your right speaker level 5db more then the rest,80 instead of 75. That speaker will stand out anyway because its going to be 5db louder and if that speaker happens to have a loud part of the music on the cd,its even way more out of balance. Ever wonder why there isnt a balance on these recievers? Because you are setting the speaker levels,kinda like having the balance in the middle like it shound be.

[kfalls]

Setting the levels using the internal test tones will set the levels of the internal amplifiers only. It will not take into account any level or freq response discrepencies within the DVD, tape, TV or CD players themselves. Many DVD players have their own bass management which is above and beyond the adjustments made on the receiver. If you want the levels to be precise playing DVDs use a DVD setup disc. The same applies if you have a seperate CD player or cassette, use test media which will allow compensating for the entire signal path, not just the levels of the amplifiers.

[shokhead]

Setting the levels using the internal test tones will set the levels of the internal amplifiers only. It will not take into account any level or freq response discrepencies within the DVD, tape, TV or CD players themselves. Many DVD players have their own bass management which is above and beyond the adjustments made on the receiver. If you want the levels to be precise playing DVDs use a DVD setup disc. The same applies if you have a seperate CD player or cassette, use test media which will allow compensating for the entire signal path, not just the levels of the amplifiers.
Nope. You use the dig out and your not using the dvd bass management.

[Quagmire]

OK I can understand in theory that SPL controls are used to set DB levels when you're playing DVD's. No question, I understand Kabish. What I don't understand however, and this is totally irresponsible of all these manufacturers is, if playing CD's (lets limit this to CD's not DVD-A's) which most DVD users play I'd conservatively guess 5 CD'sfor every DVD played, that these settings have nothing whatsoever to do with Cd's whether you play them on 2 channel, 2 channel & sub, 5 channel, etc., then they're messing up the sound balances for these poor suspecting people. All that would be needed then for these University of Cambodia graduates who write manuals is the caveat these setting aply to DVDs only do not use for CDs. Obviously this has not been done. Whokle thing makes no sense.
That is because DD sources are mixed and encoded for 5.1 playback from the beginning. The sound engineers are able to control the sound precisely and have a good idea of what the sound reproduction in your home should be like IF... your system is setup properly. Engineers mixing for stereo music playback don't have these parameters in mind. The various DSP modes are simply an embellishment on the stereo presentation. The first scenario is a very controlled process set to certain standards; the second process (DSP) is very much to taste and not set to certain standards -- if you happen to like them, great. What you need to remember is that you purchased a "Home Theater" receiver and its primary function is to give you the best possible sound reproduction for movie soundtracks. As I've said already, calibrate your system so that it will sound right for your DD & DTS sources and then set the other modes up to your taste. You seem to have already identified some settings that you like for these modes; that they don't correspond to the needed calibration settings is really no big deal, so... what's the problem?

Q

[hershon]

You seem to have already identified some settings that you like for these modes; that they don't correspond to the needed calibration settings is really no big deal, so... what's the problem? Q[/QUOTE]

The problem is, that I'd guess 98% of the general public, would be of the understanding that DB controls should be set at the same levels for CDs, DVDs, TV, etc. and they're now going to, because they don't read this Forum-that'll show them, be hearing CD's for example wrong for the rest of their lives unless they have a mind of their own and say "what's up doc, this ain't right"! and adjust different inputs and/or DSP's seperately. I've just wasted 20 or so hours on a total excercise in futility. Again I'd have no problem if these Manuals would just say, use our test tones to set DVD sound, for other inputs and DSP's, do not use the DVD settings. But they don't do this!

[Quagmire]

"The problem is, that I'd get 98% of the general public, would be of the understanding that DB controls should be set at the same levels for CDs, DVDs, TV, etc. and they're now going to, because they don't read this Forum-that'll show them, be hearing CD's for example wrong for the rest of their lives unless they have a mind of their own and say "what's up doc, this ain't right"! and adjust different inputs and/or DSP's seperately."

CD's are a two channel format. If you want to hear them "correctly", listen to them in 2 channel stereo - done. If you like to listen to them with some enhancement like the various DSP modes available, set them to your liking. For instance, you may like the sound of a "Jazz Club" set to a small room with little reverberant sound; someone else may like it set to a large room with much reverberant sound -- who's right and who's wrong? This is soley a matter of preference.

Setting your system up for 5.1 playback is not just a matter of preference. There is a definite right and wrong way to go about it. Rather than bemoan that fact, move on. Set your system up for optimal DD/DTS playback and then set your DSP modes to your liking. Like I said, there is really only one way to listen to stereo sources "correctly" and that is "in stereo". If your preference is to listen to them in some other format, there is no right or wrong settings... only the ones that you prefer.

Q

[hershon]

[QUOTE=Quagmire]"The problem is, that I'd geuss 98% of the general public, would be of the understanding that DB controls should be set at the same levels for CDs, DVDs, TV, etc. and they're now going to, because they don't read this Forum-that'll show them, be hearing CD's for example wrong for the rest of their lives unless they have a mind of their own and say "what's up doc, this ain't right"! and adjust different inputs and/or DSP's seperately."

Again to belabore a point, do you consider 2 speakers and a sub a DSP setting as opposed too 2 speakers and no sub? If so, I'll concede but I don't agree.

It simply makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for any receiver maker to assume that a sub won't be attached to their system. Therefore at minimum 2 speakers and a sub should not be considered a DSP. But the way I'm interpreting comments here it is. I'm also interpreting that by using SPL levels and setting the receivers test tones to 75 in regards to the receivers DB levels you are getting the correct balance to listen to DVD's at 5.1 sound and CD's apparently at 2 speaker sound (no bass) and everything else must be adjusted. This makes no sense to me whatsoever and even if it does make sense, it should be stated as such by the instruction manual!

[shokhead]

When you set the speaker levels,its just so they are all starting equal and after that whatever you listen to to work,really. It doesnt change the way the disc is recorded and that what it sounds like some of you are talking about. If you dont set the equal settings to start,that it might sound like your disc is screwed up. Know what,set you fronts to 75,rears to 80 and your center to whatever and then play something.

[Quagmire]

[QUOTE=Quagmire]"The problem is, that I'd geuss 98% of the general public, would be of the understanding that DB controls should be set at the same levels for CDs, DVDs, TV, etc. and they're now going to, because they don't read this Forum-that'll show them, be hearing CD's for example wrong for the rest of their lives unless they have a mind of their own and say "what's up doc, this ain't right"! and adjust different inputs and/or DSP's seperately."

Again to belabore a point, do you consider 2 speakers and a sub a DSP setting as opposed too 2 speakers and no sub? If so, I'll concede but I don't agree.

It simply makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for any receiver maker to assume that a sub won't be attached to their system. Therefore at minimum 2 speakers and a sub should not be considered a DSP. But the way I'm interpreting comments here it is. I'm also interpreting that by using SPL levels and setting the receivers test tones to 75 in regards to the receivers DB levels you are getting the correct balance to listen to DVD's at 5.1 sound and CD's apparently at 2 speaker sound (no bass) and everything else must be adjusted. This makes no sense to me whatsoever and even if it does make sense, it should be stated as such by the instruction manual!
It depends on how you have the sub connected to the system. If it is connected to the receiver at speaker level then the sub is merely another driver in the speaker chain -- sort of like making a pair of two way bookshelf speakers into three way speakers. You would most likely have the sub turned "OFF" with this arrangement so that a full range signal would be sent to the mains through the sub. If, however, you have the sub connected at line level from the "Sub Out" jack on the receiver then you'd need the sub turned "ON" and the mains set to small. So at the very least there would be a degree of bass management which the sound engineer would not have accounted for in the studio mix. I don't consider this to be a DSP mode per se, but I do consider it at be at least a deviation from what was intended in the original stereo mix. You'll also find that some manufacturers incorperate bass management into the stereo mix (the sub out will contain information) and other do not (even though the sub is connected, no sound will be heard from it when the receiver is in stereo mode): This is not standardized.

But most of what you have been talking about (and testing your setup with) have been DSP modes... so stay on track. You just have to accept that these modes are, as I have said before, a deviation or enhancement of the stereo signal. There is no standardized way to set them up and so it makes absolutely no sense to use them to evaluate speaker calibration. That is the main point I am making. You are free to set them up any way you like per your own tastes -- there is no wrong way to do this. To me it seems very ironic that if such freedoms we not available in regard to the DSP modes, and all of the levels we tied to the global calibration level, there'd be no end to all of the complaining. I'm sorry to have to say that you can't eat your cake and have it still. Come to think of it, I'm sure that there are some receivers which don't offer you this kind of flexibility and freedom. So don't be too upset about it. I do agree that many (most) manufacturers could do a better job of explaining things in those damned manuals, but that is nothing new and is certainly not limited to this issue of channel levels and DSP modes. So what can I say??? Exactly how long is it going to take for you to get over it? Aren't you just a wee bit interested in the improvements to your DD and DTS sources which results from having a properly calibrated system? That is what the calibration is for but you want to spend all of your time talking about something else. I don't quite get it. I'm beginning to think that if you were present with Christ himself when he turned the water into wine, you'd be complaining that it was a cheap Zinfandel rather than an expensive Cabernet! Lighten up a little bit. Part of what makes this a hobby is that some tinkering and thought is required. If none were required, you'd have no reason to visit a hobbyist board such as this, but likewise... if your not going to listen to the advice that's given, you have no reason to visit here either. As far as I'm concerned, you've gotten plenty of good advice on this topic and unless you have other questions about specific procedures or methods to correctly accomplish this task, I really have nothing else to offer you. I sincerely hope that you can find something positive about having your system at least "ball park" calibrated.

Q

[shokhead]

It depends on how you have the sub connected to the system. If it is connected to the receiver at speaker level then the sub is merely another driver in the speaker chain -- sort of like making a pair of two way bookshelf speakers into three way speakers. You would most likely have the sub turned "OFF" with this arrangement so that a full range signal would be sent to the mains through the sub. If, however, you have the sub connected at line level from the "Sub Out" jack on the receiver then you'd need the sub turned "ON" and the mains set to small. So at the very least there would be a degree of bass management which the sound engineer would not have accounted for in the studio mix. I don't consider this to be a DSP mode per se, but I do consider it at be at least a deviation from what was intended in the original stereo mix. You'll also find that some manufacturers incorperate bass management into the stereo mix (the sub out will contain information) and other do not (even though the sub is connected, no sound will be heard from it when the receiver is in stereo mode): This is not standardized.

But most of what you have been talking about (and testing your setup with) have been DSP modes... so stay on track. You just have to accept that these modes are, as I have said before, a deviation or enhancement of the stereo signal. There is no standardized way to set them up and so it makes absolutely no sense to use them to evaluate speaker calibration. That is the main point I am making. You are free to set them up any way you like per your own tastes -- there is no wrong way to do this. To me it seems very ironic that if such freedoms we not available in regard to the DSP modes, and all of the levels we tied to the global calibration level, there'd be no end to all of the complaining. I'm sorry to have to say that you can't eat your cake and have it still. Come to think of it, I'm sure that there are some receivers which don't offer you this kind of flexibility and freedom. So don't be too upset about it. I do agree that many (most) manufacturers could do a better job of explaining things in those damned manuals, but that is nothing new and is certainly not limited to this issue of channel levels and DSP modes. So what can I say??? Exactly how long is it going to take for you to get over it? Aren't you just a wee bit interested in the improvements to your DD and DTS sources which results from having a properly calibrated system? That is what the calibration is for but you want to spend all of your time talking about something else. I don't quite get it. I'm beginning to think that if you were present with Christ himself when he turned the water into wine, you'd be complaining that it was a cheap Zinfandel rather than an expensive Cabernet! Lighten up a little bit. Part of what makes this a hobby is that some tinkering and thought is required. If none were required, you'd have no reason to visit a hobbyist board such as this, but likewise... if your not going to listen to the advice that's given, you have no reason to visit here either. As far as I'm concerned, you've gotten plenty of good advice on this topic and unless you have other questions about specific procedures or methods to correctly accomplish this task, I really have nothing else to offer you. I sincerely hope that you can find something positive about having your system at least "ball park" calibrated.

Q

Unless i missed something,the only dsp mode he likes is the 5 channel stereo. Also you need to remember he has a denon manual,a bit worst then others. Oh,you dont have any right to tell anyone not to visit this forum,some get it and others take more time and hershon has come a long ways

[Quagmire]

"Unless i missed something,the only dsp mode he likes is the 5 channel stereo."

Which is why when he started talking about two speakers and a sub I said... "...stay on track." because once the questions had been answered, he changed the parameters of the question. I agree he has been talking about 5 channel stereo and I believe he has been answered in regard to its usefulness in evaluating his speaker calibration. It's fine to ask questions, but it is also useful to listen to the answers.

"Oh,you dont have any right to tell anyone not to visit this forum,some get it and others take more time and hershon has come a long ways"

I didn't tell him not to visit this forum. I simply said that if he weren't prepared to do some tinkering, put a little thought into it, and actually listen to the advice that is given; he has no reason to visit here. This isn't the same thing as telling him to go away. It's more along the line that if he isn't willing to do these things, he won't get much out of visiting here. You can check my post again if you'd like, but I'm certain of what I said and what I didn't say. I don't want Hershon to leave, but I do think he needs a nudge in the right direction. At this point I really have nothing practical to offer him, because he is simply reframing the same question and asking it over and over again -- I suppose because he doesn't like the answer. But asking multiple times won't change the answer. If he has something new to ask, I'll be more than happy to help him if I can. I do believe there is some value in telling him, "You're stuck. You need to get past this point." That is what I have attempted to do with Hershon. I'm sorry if you don't approve and if I have really offended him by my comments, I owe him an appology.

Q

[shokhead]

He's a big boy,i'll him stick up for himself. I must have misread: If your not going to listen to the advice thats given, you have no reason to visit here either.

[hershon]

I'm not here to get in a pissing contest with Quagmire who frankly has helped me alot recently here, but just to clarify a clarification, to belabor the point. The entire purpose of this original thread was if the (Denon) Receivers SPL testing to set DB levels for speakers is suppose to produce the best sound, then how come it doesn't (at least for me)? I believe Quagmire & maybe a couple of other people stated that SPL testing is to set the best sound for just playing DVD's. That is a totally logical answer which I can accept but my problem is, and this is what I needed clarification on, are you just saying unequivically just DVD sound, not anything else such as CD 2 speakers sound, CD 2 speakers & a sub sound, CD 5 channel natural sound, etc? I don't see how that's changing the parameters of my basic question. Sorry I like to see things spelled out in black and white. I still don't quite know what the answer to this is, but nobody here seems to find it bizarre that apparently unless you are a secret member of a special Secret Audio Fraternity Group, that nobody knows this.
The Manufacturers such as Denon are therefore sending most of the human race into
a no win situation where if you follow instructions you will be the worse off if you use a receiver for anything other than playing DVD's. If I was elected President I would pass a law stating that if the above is true, all manuals should put a warning like cigarettes with cancer saying "DB settings using our Test Tones should be used only when playing DVD's, nothing else."

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm not here to get in a pissing contest with Quagmire who frankly has helped me alot recently here, but just to clarify a clarification, to belabor the point. The entire purpose of this original thread was if the (Denon) Receivers SPL testing to set DB levels for speakers is suppose to produce the best sound, then how come it doesn't (at least for me)? I believe Quagmire & maybe a couple of other people stated that SPL testing is to set the best sound for just playing DVD's. That is a totally logical answer which I can accept but my problem is, and this is what I needed clarification on, are you just saying unequivically just DVD sound, not anything else such as CD 2 speakers sound, CD 2 speakers & a sub sound, CD 5 channel natural sound, etc? I don't see how that's changing the parameters of my basic question. Sorry I like to see things spelled out in black and white. I still don't quite know what the answer to this is, but nobody here seems to find it bizarre that apparently unless you are a secret member of a special Secret Audio Fraternity Group, that nobody knows this.
The Manufacturers such as Denon are therefore sending most of the human race into
a no win situation where if you follow instructions you will be the worse off if you use a receiver for anything other than playing DVD's. If I was elected President I would pass a law stating that if the above is true, all manuals should put a warning like cigarettes with cancer saying "DB settings using our Test Tones should be used only when playing DVD's, nothing else."


This thread is taking too long to get you to your outcome. There are two ways to accomplish calibration, both are effective. Use the internal test tones of your reciever, or a setup disc. Set your recievers volume knob at 0, and balance all of your speakers so that all play back at 75db. The sub should be set for anything between 78-81db. Once this is done, not matter what you play back, whether it be two channel, 5.1, 2.0, or 5 channel stereo, everything will be balanced. CD's, DVD's will all be balanced. Since your receiver controls the output of everything, and it your receiver test tones that provide the balancing, all sources passing through the outputs of the receiver are going to be balanced. The balance will remain the same even if using the DSP modes.

[Quagmire]

I'm not here to get in a pissing contest with Quagmire who frankly has helped me alot recently here, but just to clarify a clarification, to belabor the point. The entire purpose of this original thread was if the (Denon) Receivers SPL testing to set DB levels for speakers is suppose to produce the best sound, then how come it doesn't (at least for me)? I believe Quagmire & maybe a couple of other people stated that SPL testing is to set the best sound for just playing DVD's. That is a totally logical answer which I can accept but my problem is, and this is what I needed clarification on, are you just saying unequivically just DVD sound, not anything else such as CD 2 speakers sound, CD 2 speakers & a sub sound, CD 5 channel natural sound, etc? I don't see how that's changing the parameters of my basic question. Sorry I like to see things spelled out in black and white. I still don't quite know what the answer to this is, but nobody here seems to find it bizarre that apparently unless you are a secret member of a special Secret Audio Fraternity Group, that nobody knows this.
The Manufacturers such as Denon are therefore sending most of the human race into
a no win situation where if you follow instructions you will be the worse off if you use a receiver for anything other than playing DVD's. If I was elected President I would pass a law stating that if the above is true, all manuals should put a warning like cigarettes with cancer saying "DB settings using our Test Tones should be used only when playing DVD's, nothing else."
It isn't my intention to get into a pissing match with you either. Just to clarify, I didn't say that the speaker calibration is only for DVD's; what I said was that it is for sources that will be outputing DD, DTS, & Pro Logic formats. This would include DVD's but would also include sources like VCR, Cable, Satalite, HDTV, DTS CD's, DTS DVD's, etc... I've said this MANY TIMES now.

I rarely disagree with Sir TT but in this case, I respectfully do. I think you have found first hand that your 5 channel stereo does not sound good to you with the speakers set at the calibrated levels. Isn't that what prompted this thread? I know my system doesn't sound good in 5 channel stereo with the speakers set at the calibrated levels -- the surrounds are too loud in this mode. But in my "Matrix" DSP the surrounds actually need a boost. Also, unlike the delays used for time alignment of DD & DTS sources, the delays for "Matrix" are used to accentuate the processing effect, to make the room sound larger or smaller, or more or less reflective and "live". These settings are a matter of personal taste: There is no "objective" right or wrong setting for them, but that is not true of the affore mentioned DD, DTS, & Pro Logic formats: There is an "objective" right or wrong way to set them up. Evaluating the calibration by listening to music in the 5 channels stereo mode is really not a good objective way of evaluating the results of your speaker calibration. What you need to do is play something like a DD encoded DVD and see how that sounds. I've yet to hear you mention how those sources sound after you've completed the calibration.

Just to make sure, you mention such things as CD 2 speaker sound, CD 2 speaker + sub sound... When making the speaker calibrations, balancing the output of the front main speakers is part of that calibration. So stereo sources, played back in 2 channel stereo mode should sound correct. It is possible that the sub setting for CD 2 speaker + sub may be correct and give you results that are pleasing to you. But you may also find that the sub setting in this mode does not correlate well with the calibrated level for movie DD & DTS playback. You may need to alter the sub's output to sound correct when playing CD's in this mode.

You know I really do understand your frustration that this one calibration doesn't set up everything perfectly for every mode on your receiver -- I agree that would be awsome. But I'm afraid it just isn't so and complaining about it or wishing it to be different isn't going to make it so. Like I said, I'm surprised to find myself in disagreement with Sir TT about this matter, and maybe there are some people who feel that everything (all DSP modes included) sounds just right with the speakers at the calibrated level, but this hasn't been my experience at all. Sorry, I realize I came off kind of harsh in my last reply to you, but there really isn't anything new to add to this. If you are in that group who finds everything sounds good at the calibrated levels, fine, you agree with Sir TT and you have your answer. But if you don't, (and I assume that is why you started this thread) then you need to know that the calibration is effective for playback of your DD, DTS, and Pro Logic formats, and that you have a means of setting up the other DSP formats to your taste so that you're not stuck with results you don't like.

Q

[hershon]

Thanks, no problem, your original answer was helpful to me and saved me endless hours beating my head against a wall try to come up with a "universal setting" for everything and you basically told me there is no universal setting, which is all I needed to know. My frustration/anger isn't with/directed to you but rather with all the receiver companies that simply don't state this in their manual.

[Quagmire]

Thanks, no problem, your original answer was helpful to me and saved me endless hours beating my head against a wall try to come up with a "universal setting" for everything and you basically told me there is no universal setting, which is all I needed to know. My frustration/anger isn't with/directed to you but rather with all the receiver companies that simply don't state this in their manual.
I understand.

Q

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well I'll be a pimple on the butt of an elephant!(as he slaps his hand on his thigh)


I rarely disagree with Sir TT but in this case, I respectfully do. I think you have found first hand that your 5 channel stereo does not sound good to you with the speakers set at the calibrated levels.

5 channel stereo is not supposed to sound like 5.1 at all. You are getting an entirely different mix between the two. From what I understand about 5 channel stereo the left main and left surround play the same info(very bad acoustically speaking), the right main and right surround play the same information. The center plays all of the inphase information from the left/right mains, and the sub plays a filtered bass from the mains. In practice this will sound absolutely crappy(I know mine does). I would not base my calibration around this DSP, nor would I go through the trouble of messing with my calibration just to get this DSP right. This should not be a primary listening mode and all calibration should be based around the basic listening modes(i.e two channel and 5.1)

There is a difference between proper calibration, and what sounds good to you. A system can be properly calibrated, and sound like crap once you introduce a DSP into the picture. There is no proper calibration for DSP modes that won't negative affect the primary listening modes. You balance one, and the other will sound off. Trying to setup "global" setting for both, or averaging out a difference between the two will leave you not liking both, or turning the crap off altogether with.

I never made mention of sound quality, just balance. Especially when it comes to DSP's

[Quagmire]

"Q disagrees with me!!!!"

I know... I know! It was bound to happen sooner or later. Hehe

"There is no proper calibration for DSP modes that won't negative affect the primary listening modes. You balance one, and the other will sound off."

I suppose this may be different depending on equipment, but my pre/pro allows for independent speaker channel levels based on whatever mode of operation you're in. If you go through the system calibration, it sets all of the levels globally and these are the settings which get used for all 5.1 playback (DD, DTS, Pro Logic) formats. But if you switch to a DSP mode such as 5 channel stereo or Matrix (the only two I have found to be remotely useful) you can adjust the levels for each of those modes independently so that you can dial in the sound that you like. Like I said to Hershon, to me there is no right or wrong way to set these up, it is only a matter of what sounds good. However, when you switch back to a DD source the processor detects it, automatically defaults to DD decoding AND... switches back to all of the global calibration settings. So if one happens to like any of these DSP modes they can be set up as desired without screwing up the really important settings for DD decoding.

"I would not base my calibration around this DSP, nor would I go through the trouble of messing with my calibration just to get this DSP right."

Nor would I.

"...all calibration should be based around the basic listening modes(i.e two channel and 5.1)"

I agree and really tried to emphasize this to our good buddy Hershon.

"I never made mention of sound quality, just balance."

Yes, in reading over your post, I thought this was really the point that you were making... if you go through the trouble of proper calibration, all speakers will be outputting at the same level. If this calibrated level worked to make all modes of operation (read even the DSP modes) sound proper, then Hershon would be in receiver heaven. Unfortunately, in my experience I have not found this to be true and judging from your statement... "A system can be properly calibrated, and sound like crap once you introduce a DSP into the picture." this has been your experience too. Like you, if I didn't have the ability to set them up without compromising my default settings for 5.1 operation, I wouldn't bother with them at all.

What were we disagreeing about again???? Hehe

Q

[shokhead]

As much as i like the 5 channel stereo but hate any other dsp mode,i vote to get rid of all dsp modes and put something usefull. Any suggestions while we are dreaming.

[paul_pci]

As much as i like the 5 channel stereo but hate any other dsp mode,i vote to get rid of all dsp modes and put something usefull. Any suggestions while we are dreaming.

I thnk the brainless public probably drools over DSP modes, thinking they are getting more value for the money, while us audiophiles are clammering for substantive features, better DACs, more efficient amplification. And anyone who has live in the US for more than 45 seconds realizes that the brainless pubic will always win out when it comes to mainstream products like Denon or Yamaha.