So if i wanna get into Frank Zappa, what albums should i check out? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : So if i wanna get into Frank Zappa, what albums should i check out?



Kaboom
03-29-2005, 10:42 AM
nmnmnmnm

Olivertmc
03-29-2005, 11:01 AM
nmnmnmnm
My first Zappa album was the 2 disc set of "Apostrophe/Overnite Sensation." So many great tunes on there, and the musicianship is phenomenal. Still one of my favorites.

mad rhetorik
03-29-2005, 11:07 AM
A handy Zappa guide, fer yer convenience:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/2UIZJD3LG6BOE/qid=1112122963/sr=18-1/ref=sr_18_1/104-2645595-6296706

It doesn't include everything he did, but it's a good start. The general rule is: Buy <b>Hot Rats</b> first. You'll have a hard time not enjoying that one. Then get <b>One Size Fits All</b>. Go nuts from there.

richmon
03-29-2005, 11:26 AM
And there were lots of votes for the Roxy period which includes Apostrophe, Overnite sensation and One size fits all. As Olivertmc mentions you can get Apos + OS on a twofer disc. Alot of value there, although One size is supposidly the best of the three by a whisker.
Hot Rats is also great, alabeit a bit proggier, with longer incredible instumentals. The Roxy discs have more lyrics, with Franky's sense of humor in full force.
So to summerize, the twofer would be my first choice.
Hot Rats close behind.
One size right on the tails of the above two.
You can't go wrong with any of em.

Troy
03-29-2005, 11:32 AM
I always say "One Size Fits All" as it covers a lot of different styles that FZ did very well. "Overnight Sensation" and maybe "Apostrophe" would work. So would "Zoot Allures" if you see it used . . .

There's a mountain of live albums and many people consider these the best way to listen to FZ. "Live in NY" and "The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life" are my 2 favorites.

The partially live "Sheik Yerbouti's" really solid too.

Figure out which aspects of these albums you dig and there are more focussed directions for you to head with other albums.

Have fun!

MasterCylinder
03-29-2005, 11:48 AM
cosign (kinda) with Troy:


After you get used to hearing Zappa from a good selection of studio works, the real deal is THE BEST BAND YOU NEVER HEARD IN YOUR LIFE.



It is a microcosm of the music of the man.

It reflects the skills he possessed regarding writing, arranging and hiring the correct musicians for the intricate parts.........and it is all done LIVE !....and done very well.

An amazing album indeed.

DarrenH
03-29-2005, 11:55 AM
O boy, do I ever like Hot Rats. It's largely instrumental but is it ever good. Features some of FZ's best guitar work imo. If you end up getting this, and you like it, then try Waka Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo. Those albums are very similar albeit not quite as good as Hot Rats.

No sense repeating the other suggestions. Just get them too.

Hyfi
03-29-2005, 03:05 PM
Live at the Filmore. Many hilarious tunes here.
We're Only In It For The Money

And what album was "Billy Was a Mountain" on?......Ethal was a tree growing out of his shoulder.

So who can do a nice comp up for Zappa?

BradH
03-29-2005, 03:21 PM
I would recommend One Size Fits All. There's something about it that sounds to me like the perfect Zappa album. Hot Rats and the original non-sucky lp version of Sleep Dirt are my favorite instrumental albums but I would point a newby toward One Size Fits All everytime.

Btw, Troy tells me he thinks all the tracks from the original non-sucky lp version of Sleep Dirt are on Lather.

MasterCylinder
03-30-2005, 05:46 AM
"So who can do a nice comp up for Zappa?"






I could do one, but it would take about 20 CD-Rs to correctly cover all the facets.





THE BEST BAND YOU NEVER HEARD IN YOUR LIFE already is a nice comp for Zappa.

Troy
03-30-2005, 07:24 AM
Btw, Troy tells me he thinks all the tracks from the original non-sucky lp version of Sleep Dirt are on Lather.

Yes, pretty sure it's all there, just in a different order. I understand that original CD issue of SD had lots of overdubs on it. Ruined it for some. I think the Lather versions are the same as the originals . . . but I could be wrong on that.

jack70
03-30-2005, 10:01 AM
So if i wanna get into Frank Zappa, what albums should i check out? This is a question that pops up on most music boards more regularly than about any other. It's no doubt because Zappa was an original, very influential to others, and has a large repertoire. It's generally only a matter of time before younger people interested in music hear about him (& then find the choices confusing). So he's a lot like Beethoven or Bach... just where do you begin?

So I'd caution newcomers that taste & one's musical background will determine (a lot) what appeals to any single person. Just from the above few comments, you can see the diversity already. Consider that there are about 100 CDs of his out there, and although many of those can be grouped in similar categories, there's still a wide variation of musical styles. Easiest way is to ask around and borrow some discs first... if you go out & impulsively buy something highly recommended, you may find it's not your cuppa tea, and then eschew all his other work, and then miss other stuff you might enjoy.

I'd agree that Hot Rats is probably his most accessible... it's a mix of fusion & jazz... a small jazz ensemble that actually has Ian Underwood to thank for it. "It Must Be a Camel" is one of my faves of his, showing his composing is on par with any of the great jazz ensemble arrangers of the 50's & 60's. Still, most will point to the longish, more pedestrian soloing cuts there. Whatever floats yer boat.

For live albums, I still like his earliest one, Fillmore East-June 71, but I'm an old timer. It's also more R&R oriented than many of his future live output, which is more jazzy. It's also fresher than those later (IMO), maybe because it was slighly less "rehearsed" as his future bands were.

Frank's early albums are among his most original & diverse, when his creative juices & influence was at his peak (IMO). But they can also be tough to "get" because of all the cultural links he's satirizing. Heck, it was tough to get em all even if you WERE hip to it at the time... LOL. My own fave of his is Lumpy Gravy, which was also Frank's. But many find it among his most perplexing, and hate it. What can I tell you?



I could do one, but it would take about 20 CD-Rs to correctly cover all the facets. Ain't that the truth! Aside from the many live albums (both "official" and boots), there are only a couple albums that are kinda "overviews."

One is Weasels Ripped My Flesh, which was put out in lieu of a multi-box set that the "big boys" thought was financially "not so great" an idea at the time. Our loss, and just another reason Zappa worked so hard to get TOTAL control of his own work in the future (took his lawyers many years). Weasels has cuts of a wide number of different genres of music, probably more than any other, so most are going to find something they like, but perhaps will even get turned onto something else there they initially find too "weird." Again, depends on one's musical background & tastes. It's an early album (70), but gives a good look at the range of music Frank was interested in. My faves on it are the title tune, which stops time in a similar way Coltrane's A Love Supreme does... and "Oh No," a vicious put-down of John Lennon (& the whole hippy/left wing philosophy).

Another "overview" type album is The Lost Episodes. It was one of Frank's last projects he finished before he died. What makes it valuable for Zappa fans, who would otherwise already have lots of his stuff (on any "best of" or "collection") is that it consists totally of unreleased tapes, both live & studio, demos & alternate vers, & all re-mixed for better sound. It has material from 58 through the late 70's. Although I wouldn't recommend it for newbies, it's especially neat if you grew up with Zappa... cause it gives a look at many of the "less slick" (production-wise) things he had in the can on tape, but never saw the light of day. Of course, I've mentioned this album a few times in the past here, all to typical deafening silence... LOL.



Yes, pretty sure it's all there, just in a different order. I understand that original CD issue of SD had lots of overdubs on it. Ruined it for some. I think the Lather versions are the same as the originals . . . but I could be wrong on that.It should be noted that a number of Zappa's works have been RE-edited & RE-released on CD. The original LP mixes of Were In It For The Money & Hot Rats were RE-mixed by Zappa when they first came out on CD back in the 70's/80's. After moocho bitc_ing & moaning by fans, Frank went back & RE-issued later CD editions with the original mixes. I don't have Lather, so I'm glad to hear he also did the same with some of the stuff on there as well... it's one (of many) of his on CD I've yet to get.

Chrisgnat
03-30-2005, 07:20 PM
"One Size Fits All".
Inca roads is worth the price alone.

The vinyl of "Sleep Dirt" is my favoprite Zappa recording.
Very cool jazzy/proggy instrumental stuff.

Chris

BradH
03-30-2005, 10:15 PM
It should be noted that a number of Zappa's works have been RE-edited & RE-released on CD. The original LP mixes of Were In It For The Money & Hot Rats were RE-mixed by Zappa when they first came out on CD back in the 70's/80's. After moocho bitc_ing & moaning by fans, Frank went back & RE-issued later CD editions with the original mixes.

The b*tching centered mostly around We're Only In It For The Money and Cruising With Ruben & The Jets. The original master tapes had deteriorated, mostly affecting the bass & drums. For the cd release, Zappa re-mixed them with new bass & drum recordings (I think Wackerman was the drummer). Opinions vary on the results. Sonically, it works. It's a convincing soundstage because the remaining instruments are so clear. Stylistically, it's an absurd anachronism. Fusion drummers and bass flangers are more suitable for Zappa's later work. You can't just drop them in the middle of 1967 and pretend everything's okay. When the cd's were re-issued, Zappa relented and fixed up the original master for Money the best he could but the tapes for Cruising were so hammered he refused to release the original. That's a shame because Cruising was a convincing doo-wop record and the beginning of the snappy drum sound that was continued on Uncle Meat.

The case with Sleep Dirt is weird. Zappa handed over a bunch of tapes to Warner Bros as a fullfillment to his contract when they were parting company and basically told them to do whatever they wanted with them. Warners issued them as three lp's: Sleep Dirt, Orchestral Favorites and Studio Tan. They picked the titles and the covers, Zappa had nothing to do with it. When Sleep Dirt was released on cd it had the addition of that soulful female vocal throughout the suite that was on Side One. I'm pretty sure that's Lady Bianca who was in the band when Jobson was there. Bianca is a helluva singer but it completely destroys it, imo. Zappa maintained it was his original intention to have the vocals all along and he left them there when the cd's were re-issued. If the tracks on Lather are like the lp then I'm buying. The cd of Sleep Dirt is still worth buying just for "The Ocean Is The Ultimate Solution", a killer jam session between Zappa, Bozzio and O'Hearn.

It's odd that we're talking about this because I've been listening to a boot of the Jobson/Bozzio/O'Hearn lineup with Lady Bianca on keys/vocals and Ray White on guitar/vocals. It's the famous Boston Tea Party gig where an audience member told her to take her clothes off. She responded by saying, "Tell your momma to take her clothes off....and when she does, tell her to suck a rat's d**k." Zappa repeated it later "for those who didn't hear it" but he was not happy about her response and told her so after the show. It was a rough crowd. They hooted and hollered at the effeminate Jobson as he came forward with his glass violin. Zappa told them, "Give the boy a chance". Jobson was unflappable as always, delivering a climactic violin solo on "Black Napkins". My respect for Jobson has really increased over the years. I don't think I've ever heard him screw up on a live recording unlike, say, Patrick Moraz, who was somewhat unreliable at times. Chris Squire shoulda never let Jobson go in '83...

jack70
03-31-2005, 02:18 PM
Thanks for clarifying the Zappa re-mixes Brad. I didn't know Crusing w/R&J was in that group too. I still have it on LP in near new cond.

As for "...Money", I'd forgotten those details about the condition of the masters. I knew many of his early tapes were in bad shape, but didn't realize that was the impetous for him "re-doing" them for CD. I thought a lot of his re-doing that LP was to make the work more "accurate" to what he'd originally planned. Considering how complex a mix it was to do at the time (overdubbing & manual tape splicing in 67), it's easy to see that it was impossible for him to ever get it to sound "perfect" (the way he conceived it). But I agree, the new technology techniques of the new tracks he added makes it sound weird. But most upsetting (for us who grew up on the original), was that it sounded "distorted"... in a way that ruined the "imprinting" of it we all had in our poor brains. Imagine if the Beatles had re-issued different mixes (vocals etc), and different takes of their most popular songs when they first came out on CD.... they'd sound equally "weird" to everyone... virtually everyone who grew up with that music would be pis_ed. Gotta give Zappa credit for changing his mind... being he was so self directed about his artistic views.

Yeah, those 3 albums (Sleep Dirt, Orchestral Favorites and Studio Tan) were simply put out to fill out his contract. It's really amazing how HUGE the business end of the music biz is. I do remember reading a lot about that part of his life (Zappa)... but it gets very tedious reading. But, at the same time, it was as close & vital to him (at the time) as his family or anything else in his life. Which is why he could remember all sorts of small intimate details about those goings-on (legal shenanegans). For the music fan, talk of lawyers & contract law is pretty boring.

Ironically, I was also recently reading some remenices(sp) by Ray Davies, and you get the same thing.... loads & loads of minutia of rights issues, contracts, legal suits, and cash disappearing during his early days. Obviously very important stuff to them... but an aspect that us fans rarely are even aware of. We think of those guys as "pure" artists, simply rolling out their emotions in their work... spending all their time just blissfully writing songs & performing... LOL -- a very one-dimensional view. The reality was they knew their lawyer better than their recording engineer. Heck, with the issues in today's new technology, I guess things haven't changed all that much, eh?

BradH
03-31-2005, 03:51 PM
I didn't know Crusing w/R&J was in that group too. I still have it on LP in near new cond.

Do you have a way to transfer it to CDR? You were building your own turntable at one point weren't you? If you want to build a stand alone CDR burner I'll loan you my soldering iron...


For the music fan, talk of lawyers & contract law is pretty boring.

I thnk Zappa was ahead of his time in this regard. Now all the artists are saying the same thing he said almost 20 years ago. Nobody's really listening, though. It's still "I bought this, I bought that" or "I've got 20 terrabytes of mp3's on my hard drive". It's the same with movies. Most movie fans can be bothered with the unbelievable, almost psychotic, story of the movie industry and its past history. What the average music fan probably doesn't realize is how often the legal/money issues impact the actual music. Look at Neil Young's Geffen years. It's impossible to believe he wasn't intentionally jacking with David Geffen. Synth-pop, doo-wop, country. How can you truthfully tell the artistic story of those albums without mentioning the legal battle that ensued? Which brings us back to Zappa. I think the quality of those late 70's/early 80's double lp extravaganzas like Sheik Yerbouti, Tinseltown Rebellion, Joe's Garage and, especially, You Are What You Is is inferior to Zoot Allures and most of what came before. I know that's blasphemous to some but, by his own admission, Zappa had become less interested in the rock album/tour cycle as a means of expression and was using it to fund his work in modern classical music. In other words, the business end of things affected the music to an extent.

jack70
04-01-2005, 10:34 AM
Do you have a way to transfer it to CDR? You were building your own turntable at one point weren't you? I've got (still have) a couple turntable/arm combo's. Last year I decided to use my old Sony PS2251 (late 60's table w/o arm... ~50 lbs!... better than thorens in it's day, but with the big upside of both 33 & 45 speeds, and variable speed (servo control pot), so you can even do analog flanging with a RR deck... LOL). Anyway, I built a new SS PreAmp (based on a tweaked Hegeman design), and have been using it for about a year. I record (digitally) through my sound card, then digitally edit the files.

Many of my later comps are ALL analog (or near all)... you should have my timemasheen vols 15, 16, & 18, which are in this manner, as are many that are on the drawing board. And my vol-22/23 is nearly all analog too, but I haven't sent them out (to most) yet (printer probs, a re-install of my OS, & just being busy... what else is new?).

As to your Zappa comments...

First, you're quite right that the bizness end was (is) as big a focus in most artist's lives than anything. I've been researching both Zappa & Davies for 2 articles I'm writing. Now I've read lots of stuff on them in the past, but wanted to look through certain (specific) stuff again. What I found was precious little of how certain songs were written, developed, recorded, and engineered. I was struck instead, by the huge amount of bit_ing & moaning over rights... & money... & rip-offs... & control.

Yeah, I remember reading about Zappa's legal battles ever since I was a kid in the 60's. He, very early on, was pis_ed with the way the corporate bosses made artistic decisions RIGHT OVER his objections (they had the power via the contract). For starters, his band was originally "The Mothers", but was marketed as "The Mothers of Invention" over his objections. And the battles with content (studio "censorship") started right from his very first album. Took him a decade & millions for lawyers to get "straight".

Although many artists TODAY are hip to the pitfalls they can fall into (when signing 100 page contracts), many still fall prey to them. You REALLY need to be smart (& paranoid) to protect your own interests.



I know that's blasphemous to someI totally agree! (his early vs later work). Since many people didn't discover him till later (late 70's & 80's), they don't appreciate the differences. They can read about it, and give it lip service (influence of his early work), but they do it in the same way they give the early Beatles lip service... cause they feel it would be politically incorrect to diss em.... and all their own current music heros say it, so they often just parrot it too. Even if they do see some of the reality, they (mostly) don't appreciate it (nearly as much) as if they had experienced it themselves. But that's true of History in general (reality), ain't it? BTW, I'm reading "A Patriot's History" (of the US). Very lucid (easy to read) & well researched overall history. It was put together (in part) to refute much of the left's current popular PC history BS (Zinn's popular marxist "a people's history" etc).

Zappa indeed produced a lot of his later stuff to support his touring, and to support is ability to write. There was a market, he made use of it. I wouldn't go as far to say he "sold out," because any musician knows how great performing live is, and he contined that (until it became financially impossible). But he was producing a lot more flash & fluff, than anything revolutionary or trancendent. (IMHO... LOL)

One last thing about Frank... anyone here have any specific info on Frank's discussions with the libertarian party when he decided to get involved in politics? I'm looking for specific people I could get in touch with. Just PM me.