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aRHT
03-20-2005, 01:05 PM
hi everyone.

I'm in the hunt for my 1st front projector and am having a hard time deciding what to get. u was hunting around for a rear projections dlp or lcd even plasma and found that iwasnt too satisfied with the picture quality vs price that the current technology has to offer (i'm coming from a 27inch pansonic gaoo with svid and was hoping a 50 rear projector would equal it for sharpenss. eventually i've come around to accept the quality of picture being put out by the current micro displays but find that $4-5000for the display i want isnt affordable. so i started thinking why not keep my 27 and use a projector for big movie nites. my crt will be good for sd tv programming and gaming and the projecotr will be used for the 'big picture movie nites" you can read about my qualms and prefences in pq here: http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=10222

I've always held back on upgrading till i could get a picture like my gaoo in 60" size but that not gonna happen soon at the price i want. I turned around as dismissing projectors when i happend to walk into a av store that had the Benq 8700 shooting a 120" image of spiderman2.althogh ambient lighting of the store washed out the contrast and blacks i was simply amazed at how detailed and "sharp" the picture was for a projector. they surely have come a long way. problem is i live in a fairly small canadien town with not many retailer carrying front projectors so i''ve come to you all to help me in my desicsion making.

my budject it for max of $2000ca. my prefecrence is for as sharp a picture as i can get. as bright as possible and good overall color saturation. using the benq pb8700 as the benchmark i would like anyone to offer their opinions as to the comparable picture quality of the following units i am considering for online purchase. if anyone has personal experience with any of them i would greatly love to hear about it.

before i list my choices, i hav a question? should i go sith a svga projector or ed or hd projector. the reason i am considering svga is price and also the size of the image. i'm going to try to drive this unit to optimal viewing distance geared for picture shapness. my new recroom is rectangula with about 18ft width and 21ft length with a single window so light control shuldnt be too big aproblem. i was going to try for about 60-70"diagnol screen (or less) so as not to obscure my speakers. will an svga projector gve me the qualities in pq that i'm looking for or shuld i stick with hd projectors?

1. Infocus x1/4800 or infocus 4805. at current online prices these models are within my budjet but ihav not seen either of them, will they compete with the Benq 8700 with smaller projected image size? i've read nothing but good things about these models although they are a bit older. i like the Faroudja DCDi video processing technology. source material will be dvd primarily and maybe some xbox games. will this technolgy give me an acceptable pq for what i want? HD program material is too expensive and out for my league for now.

2. benq pb6100 or 6200. how do these stack up against the infocus group? if i like the pb8700 image, will these exhbibit the same kind of qualites in a smaller screen size? ie, do all benq projections look similar roughly?

3. optoma h30/h31. wats the pq of these like? comparable to the other models. how about compared to my bench mark benqpb8700?

4. cosmetically similar yet about $2000 less, the benq pb7800 seems interesting? is it comparable to the 8700 in pq?

please, any input would be apprectiated.
thanks!

edtyct
03-20-2005, 02:16 PM
This is a hard one to answer, for a number of reasons. To start, however, your PQ benchmark, a 27" Panasonic (http:///#), is problematical. First of all, its small size means that the screen elements are all close enough together to remain unseen under most normal viewing conditions, giving it a superficial advantage over larger sets. But perhaps, more important, this set was meant to display only NTSC standard analog broadcasts. No hi def display larger than, say, 40" has a chance to look that good with standard definition. But the HD fixed-pixel displays will thrive on HD and high quality DVD (http://forums.audioreview.com/editpost.php#), and any CRT big enough and capable enough of giving HD a run for its money, will also look noticeably weaker with SD. You can spend some money on a processor to handle SD signals, but this is another can of potentially expensive worms. The image from a front projector on a large screen is not going to be forgiving of the source's resolution out of the box. A compromised DVD player's (http:///#) flaws will be readily available, even more so than on a rear-projection unit. I don't share your apparent blanket dismissal of rear projection (http://forums.audioreview.com/editpost.php#), and I'm not completely sure of what your misgivings are, except in the not totally relevant comparison with the 27" Panasonic. Don't get me wrong. A front projection system is, in general, a higher order animal, but given your apparent values, I'm not sure that it's your answer. If you're going to use the projector mainly for DVDs, then you can certainly get away with resolution below true HD, but do you really want to take that kind of shortcut when HD looms so large on the horizon? It's hard to make recommendations, because it's hard to tell what will satisfy you from what you said. To me, you sound like a candidate for a moderately sized HD CRT, DLP, or even LCD in your room, if you don't sit against the back wall--recommended especially if you plan on doing 5.1 or 7.1 surround. Maybe someone else will be able to pick up what I may have missed, but a little more detail about what you like and don't like about PQ might help--me at least. Then maybe my impressions would change.

Ed

McFly
03-21-2005, 09:37 AM
I've seen that BenQ 8700 projector at a store I frequent - awesome picture! where are you located in Canada? They also have the Hitachi PJTX100 set up next to it as well. Both are great units (both HD native res.)and the Hitachi is resonably priced at about 3 grand and the BenQ is about 5-6 grand Canadian. The BenQ 5120 isn't that bad either and priced in your budget, but it is only an ED projo - still looks good. Talk to the sales guy and see if he'll swing you a deal. Once my basement is finished, I hope to follow your path and get a nice projector screen put in. Go big or go home, right? Happy hunting!

robert393
03-21-2005, 09:57 AM
Your observation that the front projector image quality/detail has "come a long way" is quite accurate! IMO there is little reason to get a RPTV. Have you gone to http://www.projectorcentral.com ?
There is a wealth of information on this site. Everything from street prices, reviews, to calculators to help you decide upon a projector based upon your viewing distances...!
Hope this helps...
Robert

edtyct
03-21-2005, 12:02 PM
aRHT, are you out there? You're getting a lot of support for the front-projection idea. I don't want to come across as a stick in the mud, because my feeling is that if you can go in that direction, more power to you. It'll be trickier to implement than other viable options, and you should be careful to determine beforehand what kind of resolution you're likely to want down the road, especially if you're not made of money.

I've found that I'm a sharpness freak, too, even at the expense of other viable elements in the picture. The sharpest picture that you'll see is an HD source projected pixel for pixel, or close to it, on a suitably sized screen at the proper distance. If you get a projector that tops out at enhanced resolution (480p), your DVDs should look pretty good, but the downconversion to HD might prove disappointing in the near future. A good RPTV would at least gain you entry into the HD that you might not be able to afford in a front projector. If you're picky, I'll still reiterate that a better than average DVD (#) player and possibly even a good external processor might be in order, depending on your choice of projector and degree of anal retentivity. I just have a feeling that judging from your affection for the tightness of a 27" NTSC TV (#), you might not be satisfied with a soft picture, or one that blows up MPEG2, deinterlacing, and scaling artifacts. Let me add one more thing that's come up on the board of late. Some of the problems that you may have seen in displays that you've ruled out may well have been due to poor set up. Adjusting a set with a good test disk, like DVE or AVIA, can work wonders.

Anyway, if you've got your heart set on front projection, that's cool, but I just thought that for completeness' sake, I'd add a couple of cents.

Ed

Keith from Canada
03-22-2005, 10:18 AM
I know that the BenQ line is currently selling off inventory for their new models and the prices have been drastically cut at a number of on-line retailers. The 6200 gives you an HD (720p) picture well within your price-range. If you are not prone to 'rainbow effect', this could be a good unit for you for under $1,300 CAD. Alternatively, you can go with the better-built BenQ 8220 for just under $1,600 CAD.

If you are interested in capturing the full XGA resolution in 16:9, I would definitely recommend taking a close look at the Panny PT-AE500 or Sanyo PL-Z3. Although these are LCD projectors (which means slightly poorer black levels than with DLP), they both shoot tremendous HD (720p) images.

As far as the others go, I have heard very good things about the Optoma H31 and the Infocus 4805 however, in this world of HD, I cannot for an instant think about going with a WSGA or SGA image when you can get an HD (720p) capable image for a few hundred dollars more.

QUESTION -- your room is 18x21 which could easily accomodate a 100"+ screen. Why are you looking to build a screen that is only 60"-70"? In a room that size, I would probably look at a 110" screen with a seating distance at 13-14'.


hi everyone.

I'm in the hunt for my 1st front projector and am having a hard time deciding what to get. u was hunting around for a rear projections dlp or lcd even plasma and found that iwasnt too satisfied with the picture quality vs price that the current technology has to offer (i'm coming from a 27inch pansonic gaoo with svid and was hoping a 50 rear projector would equal it for sharpenss. eventually i've come around to accept the quality of picture being put out by the current micro displays but find that $4-5000for the display i want isnt affordable. so i started thinking why not keep my 27 and use a projector for big movie nites. my crt will be good for sd tv programming and gaming and the projecotr will be used for the 'big picture movie nites" you can read about my qualms and prefences in pq here: http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=10222

I've always held back on upgrading till i could get a picture like my gaoo in 60" size but that not gonna happen soon at the price i want. I turned around as dismissing projectors when i happend to walk into a av store that had the Benq 8700 shooting a 120" image of spiderman2.althogh ambient lighting of the store washed out the contrast and blacks i was simply amazed at how detailed and "sharp" the picture was for a projector. they surely have come a long way. problem is i live in a fairly small canadien town with not many retailer carrying front projectors so i''ve come to you all to help me in my desicsion making.

my budject it for max of $2000ca. my prefecrence is for as sharp a picture as i can get. as bright as possible and good overall color saturation. using the benq pb8700 as the benchmark i would like anyone to offer their opinions as to the comparable picture quality of the following units i am considering for online purchase. if anyone has personal experience with any of them i would greatly love to hear about it.

before i list my choices, i hav a question? should i go sith a svga projector or ed or hd projector. the reason i am considering svga is price and also the size of the image. i'm going to try to drive this unit to optimal viewing distance geared for picture shapness. my new recroom is rectangula with about 18ft width and 21ft length with a single window so light control shuldnt be too big aproblem. i was going to try for about 60-70"diagnol screen (or less) so as not to obscure my speakers. will an svga projector gve me the qualities in pq that i'm looking for or shuld i stick with hd projectors?

1. Infocus x1/4800 or infocus 4805. at current online prices these models are within my budjet but ihav not seen either of them, will they compete with the Benq 8700 with smaller projected image size? i've read nothing but good things about these models although they are a bit older. i like the Faroudja DCDi video processing technology. source material will be dvd primarily and maybe some xbox games. will this technolgy give me an acceptable pq for what i want? HD program material is too expensive and out for my league for now.

2. benq pb6100 or 6200. how do these stack up against the infocus group? if i like the pb8700 image, will these exhbibit the same kind of qualites in a smaller screen size? ie, do all benq projections look similar roughly?

3. optoma h30/h31. wats the pq of these like? comparable to the other models. how about compared to my bench mark benqpb8700?

4. cosmetically similar yet about $2000 less, the benq pb7800 seems interesting? is it comparable to the 8700 in pq?

please, any input would be apprectiated.
thanks!

aRHT
03-26-2005, 01:34 PM
This is a hard one to answer, for a number of reasons. To start, however, your PQ benchmark, a 27" Panasonic (http:///#), is problematical. First of all, its small size means that the screen elements are all close enough together to remain unseen under most normal viewing conditions, giving it a superficial advantage over larger sets. But perhaps, more important, this set was meant to display only NTSC standard analog broadcasts. No hi def display larger than, say, 40" has a chance to look that good with standard definition. But the HD fixed-pixel displays will thrive on HD and high quality DVD (http://forums.audioreview.com/editpost.php#), and any CRT big enough and capable enough of giving HD a run for its money, will also look noticeably weaker with SD. You can spend some money on a processor to handle SD signals, but this is another can of potentially expensive worms. The image from a front projector on a large screen is not going to be forgiving of the source's resolution out of the box. A compromised DVD player's (http:///#) flaws will be readily available, even more so than on a rear-projection unit. I don't share your apparent blanket dismissal of rear projection (http://forums.audioreview.com/editpost.php#), and I'm not completely sure of what your misgivings are, except in the not totally relevant comparison with the 27" Panasonic. Don't get me wrong. A front projection system is, in general, a higher order animal, but given your apparent values, I'm not sure that it's your answer. If you're going to use the projector mainly for DVDs, then you can certainly get away with resolution below true HD, but do you really want to take that kind of shortcut when HD looms so large on the horizon? It's hard to make recommendations, because it's hard to tell what will satisfy you from what you said. To me, you sound like a candidate for a moderately sized HD CRT, DLP, or even LCD in your room, if you don't sit against the back wall--recommended especially if you plan on doing 5.1 or 7.1 surround. Maybe someone else will be able to pick up what I may have missed, but a little more detail about what you like and don't like about PQ might help--me at least. Then maybe my impressions would change.

Ed
thanks for all your input (everyone). sorry for the blanket opinions on the current display technologies, it was late nite and i was in rush to get this discussion off. i am pretty amazed with the current display technologies and have to say that most of them in my living room would give me a very good picture over my 27gaoo. i do realise my assement of wanting a 60inch HD widescreen image to look like a 27inch crt SD picture is pretty flawed for a description of what i want.

i was very pleased with some of the lcd , dlp and plasma displays that were out there. amazing stuff especially some recent pioneer plasmas, wow! amazing! price: ouch. anyone seen the sharp aquos (sp?) line of lcds? icant beleive the pq! price: ouch. i think bottom line, cost is what made me go my current route for going to a bigger picture. after veiwing the benq 8700 image with smaller crt rear projectors below it and thinking there's more 'detail being shown in the 8700 100" diagnol, i was hooked on it. spending $5000 for a microdisplay that will give me the pq i want is simply not in my budget right now. another big plus for front proj: portability. having lugged a 27"tv up and down 4 flights of steps moving in and out of apts on my own, a 34inch ws crt is out of the question for me to move, although a60"dlp, lcd or plasma is lighter, still i doubt i could do that on my own.

what was i looking for my next tv to do? envelope me in the movie. I am not a show off, i do not prefer pciture size over quality, but at the same time, i want a greater sense of being drawn into a movie since i have the 5.1 sound setup for it. for those nite where freinds are over, i think the projector will be a very good inverstment in having a good entertaining movie nite. keeping my crt for those "crtical viewing" nites for myself where i watch the the orginal star wars movies on dvd and marvel at how clean and utterly sharp and detailed everything is will keep my critical eye happy.

hmm, what am i looking for in pq? with the recent release of the incredibles on dvd, i happend on a (26" ?) sharp aquas lcd showing this new realse and have to say this is what i want for a veiwing exerience, that there is not tv involved. that u are basically looking at a window into the movie. pure digital movies like the ones from pixar shuld look like a computer image, as sharp and renedered as what the people who created it saw. will i get this in a 100"diagnol. no. but at the same time, i would like mylarge picture to have qualities approaching that, while drawing me into the bigger picture and not remind me that i m watching a celluloid film on acne care from 20 years ago in the classroom. ;)

aRHT
03-26-2005, 01:43 PM
I've seen that BenQ 8700 projector at a store I frequent - awesome picture! where are you located in Canada? They also have the Hitachi PJTX100 set up next to it as well. Both are great units (both HD native res.)and the Hitachi is resonably priced at about 3 grand and the BenQ is about 5-6 grand Canadian. The BenQ 5120 isn't that bad either and priced in your budget, but it is only an ED projo - still looks good. Talk to the sales guy and see if he'll swing you a deal. Once my basement is finished, I hope to follow your path and get a nice projector screen put in. Go big or go home, right? Happy hunting!

hah. you are probablyin winnipeg arent you? thats the exact settup i see at visons electronics all over the place. ;) the hitatchi unit is nice too, but i see screen door effect with it and dont think it has an image quality near as sweet as that of the benq. where did you see the 5120? i've read some very good things about it and think it would be my ideal machine also but cannot find any dealers carrying it on display. how does it the 5120 compare with the 6100 for pq? as for the 5120s ED capabilites, my source material will be dvd for now. i doubt i will be going hi def anytime soon, i havent even had the chance to get bored of my dvds or view all of them yet. so i figured why spend the crazy funds a HD picture from a dvd source? basically i'm trying to get the sharpest dvd pic i can at larger size than 27inch diagnol that is within my budget also.

aRHT
03-26-2005, 01:52 PM
Your observation that the front projector image quality/detail has "come a long way" is quite accurate! IMO there is little reason to get a RPTV.
Robert

this is my feeling too. the picture quality and detail some of the projectors puts out rivals a51inch rear projector and the once i saw didnt compare. in my opinion, $5000 ca can get u and immensely large image that rivals the best rear projection display out there, but room lighting is the critical element that will always favor and enclosed rear prjection of micro display.

here's some other sites that i found to be helpful with a good review of the benq 5120 (among others) with screen shots!

http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/BenQ_PE5120.htm
http://www.projectorreviews.com/review.asp?reid=20

McFly
03-27-2005, 07:37 PM
aRHT,
yeah, I am in the 'Peg and I did see those units at the St.James Visions store. Like you I was very impressed with the picture quality on such a huge screen and thought it would look great in my basement - whenever that gets completly finished. The guy I talked to was quite informative and filled me in on the technology. I find that whenever I go to Future Shop or best Buy, the sales guys know nothing about a lot of the products (especially projectors) that they demo. One of these days I'll have something like that.

It looks like you have done your research, and just have to make the final step and buy the thing already. The PR5120 does look good, but if you aren't fond of the Hitachi PJTX100 projo, then you won't like the 5120. From what you have written here, it looks like you want a huge screen that won't cost your first born but don't want to sacrifice quality (that is a good thing). Unfortunatly, if you want an image like the PE8700 you are going to be looking at about a $5000-$6000 CAN hit to your pocket. Most places have return policies that if you take it home and don't like it you can return it without a problem (except Krazy Krazy - every sale is final). Best of luck whatever way you go!

aRHT
04-03-2005, 11:08 AM
aRHT, are you out there? You're getting a lot of support for the front-projection idea. I don't want to come across as a stick in the mud, because my feeling is that if you can go in that direction, more power to you. It'll be trickier to implement than other viable options, and you should be careful to determine beforehand what kind of resolution you're likely to want down the road, especially if you're not made of money.

I've found that I'm a sharpness freak, too, even at the expense of other viable elements in the picture. The sharpest picture that you'll see is an HD source projected pixel for pixel, or close to it, on a suitably sized screen at the proper distance. If you get a projector that tops out at enhanced resolution (480p), your DVDs should look pretty good, but the downconversion to HD might prove disappointing in the near future. A good RPTV would at least gain you entry into the HD that you might not be able to afford in a front projector. If you're picky, I'll still reiterate that a better than average DVD (#) player and possibly even a good external processor might be in order, depending on your choice of projector and degree of anal retentivity. I just have a feeling that judging from your affection for the tightness of a 27" NTSC TV (#), you might not be satisfied with a soft picture, or one that blows up MPEG2, deinterlacing, and scaling artifacts. Let me add one more thing that's come up on the board of late. Some of the problems that you may have seen in displays that you've ruled out may well have been due to poor set up. Adjusting a set with a good test disk, like DVE or AVIA, can work wonders.

Anyway, if you've got your heart set on front projection, that's cool, but I just thought that for completeness' sake, I'd add a couple of cents.

Ed

hey thanks for the advice. all the things you said are important factors to consider. its very hard shopping by specs tho when for me, its simple what i really need is to view the image and judge for myself what i like or dont like. i can only imagine what a front proection system in my basment should look like to me, but in all actuality my expectations mite be very much out of whack.

i hope i dont offend anyone but this whole buying a new tv thing and imagining what a front pj system will look like is kinda like being a virgin and dreaming about sex. you have all these wonderful expectations and imaginations about doing it but soemtimes your 1st time isnt so great. ; ) i'llgo with an entry level proj and see what it does to me, and then at least i have and idea what technology and performance i can get out of a given price range. i was just hoping somepeoplemight have seen allthe models i'm considering in action and be able to say: no, the pq on the hitatchi isnt as good as the benq model# blah blah blah, which some people hav indicated.

and yes you are right. my misgiving for the sets in the stores are due sometimes to poor signals, improper set up etc. I was watching the incredibles on the toshiba dlp i wasnt too into and, fed with a hdmi dvd player, man, the picture was amazing! but yet, i've been readnig a lot of posts here saying that hdmi isnt such a big deal. all said and done its hard shopping by specs and theorizing how good something will be until you takeit home and see it for yourself.

aRHT
04-03-2005, 11:24 AM
I know that the BenQ line is currently selling off inventory for their new models and the prices have been drastically cut at a number of on-line retailers. The 6200 gives you an HD (720p) picture well within your price-range. If you are not prone to 'rainbow effect', this could be a good unit for you for under $1,300 CAD. Alternatively, you can go with the better-built BenQ 8220 for just under $1,600 CAD.

If you are interested in capturing the full XGA resolution in 16:9, I would definitely recommend taking a close look at the Panny PT-AE500 or Sanyo PL-Z3. Although these are LCD projectors (which means slightly poorer black levels than with DLP), they both shoot tremendous HD (720p) images.

As far as the others go, I have heard very good things about the Optoma H31 and the Infocus 4805 however, in this world of HD, I cannot for an instant think about going with a WSGA or SGA image when you can get an HD (720p) capable image for a few hundred dollars more.

QUESTION -- your room is 18x21 which could easily accomodate a 100"+ screen. Why are you looking to build a screen that is only 60"-70"? In a room that size, I would probably look at a 110" screen with a seating distance at 13-14'.

thanks for your suggestions!
I'm staying away from lcd projectors right now due to the poor blacklevels but also i;ve seen examples of well reviewed projectors from hitatchi but i noticed screen door effect on them. so untill i do see first hand that panny or any other lcd projector, they're out of my search for now.

my source material willbe progessive scanned dvds for now. HD material is out of my budget for right now. will dvd sources be improved with a HD native projector? ifeel a projector matching my source resolution would be best for me. and the svga machines are at a decent price right now.does the additional native resolution of a HD proj improve the low res of a dvd?

my preference for a smaller screen size is that i know what i'm giving up in terms of brigtness, sharpness and contrast for a front proj compared to the microdisplays. i wanted to keep the front proj competitve by using a smallerscreen size and giving me better sharpness, colours, blacks, clarity etc. remember i 'm going from a 27"tube. anything above 43" will be huge for me, but to tell u the truth, i dont really care for THE biggest pic possible, just the optimal size to allow the proj to run at its best and giv a competitve pic. i will prob tryto go to a 90inch diagnol tho.i'm just startting to hammer out screen size,distance and materials.lots to consider.

evil__betty
04-04-2005, 09:47 AM
aRHT, you gotta start proof-reading your posts, buddy. Your points and questions are not that clear. Are you going with a rear projection or a front projection? Your last two posts are not that clear on your intentions.

Keith from Canada
04-08-2005, 06:12 AM
thanks for your suggestions!
I'm staying away from lcd projectors right now due to the poor blacklevels but also i;ve seen examples of well reviewed projectors from hitatchi but i noticed screen door effect on them. so untill i do see first hand that panny or any other lcd projector, they're out of my search for now.

my source material willbe progessive scanned dvds for now. HD material is out of my budget for right now. will dvd sources be improved with a HD native projector? ifeel a projector matching my source resolution would be best for me. and the svga machines are at a decent price right now.does the additional native resolution of a HD proj improve the low res of a dvd?

my preference for a smaller screen size is that i know what i'm giving up in terms of brigtness, sharpness and contrast for a front proj compared to the microdisplays. i wanted to keep the front proj competitve by using a smallerscreen size and giving me better sharpness, colours, blacks, clarity etc. remember i 'm going from a 27"tube. anything above 43" will be huge for me, but to tell u the truth, i dont really care for THE biggest pic possible, just the optimal size to allow the proj to run at its best and giv a competitve pic. i will prob tryto go to a 90inch diagnol tho.i'm just startting to hammer out screen size,distance and materials.lots to consider.

FYI -- take a look at ProjectorCentral.com. When you read the reviews, they will tell you when their tests indicate a fall-off in picture quality. Most WXGA projectors will display a sharp image until they get stretched past 110" or so. With most of the higher-res projectors, a 90" screen will give you just about the same quality as a 60" screen.

One last piece of advice -- try to remember that the displays that you see in the stores are generally not calibrated. Find a good ISF Tech to bring the colours and black-levels into alignment and you will get the best picture possible.