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mr. budget
03-19-2005, 08:35 PM
I was looking to buy one of these and I can't decide. Which one is better and why is it better? Are there any other better ones in this price range? thank you.

Eric Z
03-20-2005, 11:07 AM
I don't know much about the Pioneer, but I have the Yamaha 5760 (equivalent to the 650) and love it! It has all the power I need and more than enought input/outputs. It both units have everything you need, I would go with the more inexpensive one. Also, remember the 650/5760 go pretty cheap now- MSRP is $499, but I've seen it as cheap as $289 at an authorized dealer- you can always get it online for a good price, but you have to be careful for obvious reasons. One more thing, the YPAO with the Yamaha is also a great option. I'm sure some experienced person with an SPL meter can set-up a HT pretty quickly, but I'm not into that part. It literally takes 4-5 minutes to set-up your speakers (and most of that time is plugging in the microphone and setting it atop a flat surface). I don't know if the Pioneer has that option.

Good luck and enjoy!
Eric

mr. budget
03-20-2005, 04:39 PM
I was thinking that yamaha is the smarter buy mostly for it's clean power and technical soundness. I can't find one here for less than $650 cdn (the rxv 650 model), maybe the dealer can chop that price down a bit.

Eric Z
03-20-2005, 08:27 PM
Try and have them chop the price down a bit- you can also look online, however, I know how that can be taking a bit of a chance depending on the online retailer you go through. A lot of people on this board have purchased online and have no problem with it at all. Maybe some people can give you advice of what sites they used.

kexodusc
03-21-2005, 04:50 AM
Mr. Budget...you'd be further ahead to order an HTR-5760 from JandR.com or somewhere in the US at about $350 US (or less), and import it...even with customs fees you'd be up at least $100. The only downside is, if for whatever reason you needed warranty work in the first 2 years, you'd have to ship it to the USA instead of to Canada...this would probably cost you an additional $20 - $40 canadian if that happens.
You could always look at ebay...warranty might be trickier going that route.

mr. budget
03-21-2005, 09:58 AM
I saw the 650 for $500 cdn at future shop but it was too late I missed the yam by a day. I guess it's good knoledge as to how low they can go pricewise. Anyways, seeing as how there'e enough power there I'm definately going to get it for a good price, just a bit of time now and I'll end this quest for the yam. later, thanks for replies, it tells me this yam is a good unit and more than adept to do what I need it to.

kexodusc
03-21-2005, 10:46 AM
Mr. Budget....arrghhh...I hate doing this, and I wasn't going to, but I got guilted into it...if you're so interested, I can mediate a deal between you and my brother on a perfect shape, 1 year old HTR-5760, we live in NB, Canada now so your shipping would be cheap, less than what you saw at Future Shop, and no taxes to boot. He wants my RX-V1400. PM me if you're interested....

Sorry for the shill...I told him I would :(

(I'm going to crawl under my rock now)

(he owes me a beer for this).



...(I feel so dirty)

LEAFS264
03-21-2005, 10:46 AM
My man, listen and listen good. When ever you see somthing on sale at future shop. That price is always going to made available to you. You just have to push for the sale price. Just because their ADVERTISED price ends on such and such a day doesn't mean that they won't give it to you later down the road for the same price.....trust me. Tell him the guy at 2001 audio video is going to sell it to you for 499.00 and he'll be happy to sell it to you for that price. These guys at Future Shop are all on Commission and would love to sell it as high as possible. But they still would rather sell it at a discounted rate than to see you walk down the road to someone else.


Jay

mr. budget
03-21-2005, 12:31 PM
Kex, thanks a lot for the offer but I'm just going to run out and get one of em on full warranty and **** just so if I blow that **** up I could take it back easier, hey if you were my neibour and the unit worked I'd say sure. Thanks though maybe some future reference is good. I'm under that same rock, I fing hate it, so I drink beer and entertain the town, or at least lately that's my trend to stay bent as much as I can, actually my mom was born in nb st.andrews. I like your style Kex, and thanks for replies it helps. I order everybody to have a beer(S) and crank music or good movies!!! Mr. Leafs thanks for your recommendation it's always better to have money for beer and honeys than to give it to the store owner for his stock market bs. later.

kexodusc
03-21-2005, 01:30 PM
St. Andrews...I've been there...nice town...too many f'n tourists though.

I wouldn't trust my brother either, so good for you...(I know he's reading this)...
Just curious, if you're lookin for something you can crank the bejeezus out of why by a new unit? I'd be getting an older Yamaha or Harman Kardon or something, 2 or 3 years old, still has everything you need, less than $250...so no big loss if you do destroy it. Denon or Onkyo too...they're pretty tough, though for loud music, lots of power, and reliablility, Yamaha and H/K would be my first 2 choices.
If you look on ebay, there's been a Canadian company selling them brand for around $400 plus shipping (doubtful if there's warranty though)...what speakers are you driving with this thing? If you don't have 5 speakers, or don't care about home theater, you can buy a much better piece of gear for good ol' 2-channel stereo...

mr. budget
03-22-2005, 03:08 AM
Kex, I don't know why they edited my last message and I just tried to fix it. I have 4 cerwin vega 12in' 3 ways, the vega v5c ctr and 2 wharfdale 8in' 2ways. I used to use them loud, I keep it down now, or reasonable. Anyways,I just made a deal over the phone and went and got the yam htr 5760 for a good price. But the ht is excellent, I'm going from an old sony strd 590 without even a ctr channel to the yamaha with stuff like dts, pl2 etc, so the difference is much. I know you guys have some stuff that coul acitize this thing but for the money this thing is adept like I don't have so much money and even worse no car and no brain, I'm lost, but I do have a mid fi rcvr! Kex I've kind of wanted a 2 channel that could really kick but I'm not even allowed to play it loud anymore so for now this thing will do, and I didn't realize the movies could be so much better with 5 or 9 or 40 speakers and a lot of cinema modes and adjusting capabilities. thanks.

kexodusc
03-22-2005, 04:24 AM
No shame in your purchase, the HTR-5760/RX-V650 was my nominee for "best-value" receiver...It does a helluva job.
Just be careful with the volume, especially as you run a more than 2 speakers.
If you want to beef up your system a bit, the great thing about the Yamaha is it has pre-outs so you can connect external power amps if you want...Adcom, NAD, Rotel, etc...helps having a bit more power, takes some of the strain of the receiver, and makes everything sound a bit better. Tons of good used stuff on ebay and audiogon.
Enjoy your receiver.

mr. budget
03-24-2005, 04:36 AM
A couple days I've had this and when I first got it it seemed like I was going to have to learn to fly a fighter jet, but it just seemed that way, now it's almost simple to use, just like math I don't understand seemed so headachish at first but after learned I wonder why it seemed so complex. Just an hour or so on the manual and it cleared up the confusion of looking on the control panel wondering what those things were and how to get them off the screen and pressing buttons not understanding what they were doing or why they weren't doing anything, or trying to set things up you need to have the on screen display on without using the on screen display, etc. Now a few cables, a couple spkr stands, some movies, and I'm okay.

mr. budget
03-26-2005, 05:40 AM
I'm worried now that I've made a mistake...that the pioneer is superior it weighs more and has 20 20000 rating of 110x7 0.09thd and has all this jazz about a powerhouse amp that can take on any speakers and drive them to max or whatever...this amp (the yammie) is 95x7 0.06thd weighs 27.4 etc. It's older bro the 750 is rated at 100x7, and maybe, actually I've read that size isn't always an important factor? Should I do a return and switch em up? Maybe I'll ask you guys straight...Which one would you get/which one do you think or know is better and for what reason? (vsxd1014txk or rxv650)

kexodusc
03-26-2005, 08:43 AM
Don't worry about the power ratings, weight etc...The pioneer has a bit bigger power supply, but it's also a less efficient unit...the extra wattage won't make much real world difference, it's not enough extra to be substantial. Truth is, receivers in this price range are all limited in their power outputs, but for most people it's enough...
If you had that Pioneer receiver, I'd be telling you the exact same thing about getting an external power amp for cheap or going easy on the volume knob.

As a complete A/V package, the two receivers are quite comparable...If it makes you feel any better, nobody touches Yamaha in the quality department for receivers under $1500...Pioneer (not their Elite line) has had too much of a hit and miss record in recent years, not sure driving it hard would be adviseable.

mr. budget
03-26-2005, 06:17 PM
Kexodusc, thanks for your invaluable help, I think that's why I went with the yam because I followed a post of best reciever and so many people voted for yamaha, they said pioneer had dropped in their parts quality and cust service dept over the years and I'm not sure those power ratings have as significant meaning as some would place on them (I think they get more accurate when it comes to 2chnl amps)...and I got this one for a clear at least a 100 dollars less than I'd have to pay for the pioneer, plus a future shop warranty, that means anything wrong and it's over to future shop, there's a couple in the area, so repair is easy....Also I couldn't find the pioneer at 2001 audvid or fut shp, 2 of the most biggest brds here in toronto...(I live in toronto) If I wanted the pioneer I'd have to go to one of 2 small chain shops and pay an arm and a leg for it...probably at least 150 more...Anyways, I don't knock the other recievers and I'm glad for the pioneer owners out there...seems like thats a good one too...thanks a lot for the help kexodusc...I don't know so much..over time I'll gusee I'll get to know the recievers better...I'm better at speakers....I've had big jvc and kenwoods before( speakers) but actually I've never had a reciever...Just the front page of this site saying the yam2400 is one of the best product is erasing any doubts. Anyways no worrys and thanks again...this is kind of a quick reply as I've got a couple things on tap and am on the run. Kexodusc what is this bright and warm or whatever...I have read a few dozen posts about this I just forgot, and I can't find them again...I know this is like asking what's 1+1 but...What is bright and what is warm? I'm sorry, I forget.

kexodusc
03-26-2005, 07:56 PM
If you have time, and patience, you can learn a lot about how to listen to your audio gear the way it was meant to be heard from this website. I suggest you start a new thread on this to learn more if you're really interested...you'll get a ton of great links and opinions and it's a good question to ask (and it's been asked before, but not recently)...you could try a search here too...
Briefly (very briefly), bright and warm are weird adjectives the audio-world uses to describe the "tonal" characteristics of gear. Excess high frequencies, especially sibilance (hisssssssing) are lumped under bright, and warm is more of bass and midrange heavy sound, especially midrange...
These are all relative. Neutral would be a flat, perfect reproduction of the source with no change to tone.
I like to hear crystal clear high end detail, which many consider bright. What some consider warm, I consider laid back, and veiled...muffled even...loss of detail...everyone's ears are different, so it's all relative.

Your Yamaha is pretty darn close to neutral, maybe a micron on the bright side...older Yammies were notoriously bright...don't let anyone tell you they still are...

Bright/warm are neither good, nor bad...just different.

There's a ton of other words out there too...Too much brightness can be called harsh, too much warmth (or softness) can be called bloated, muffled, etc...and the list goes on. Good luck...

If you haven't already I suggest you learn what "imaging" and "soundstage" mean...look for proper speaker placement techniques, and learn about room acoustics...this knowledge is the cheapest tool to getting the most out of your gear...later.

SAPSEC
03-26-2005, 09:00 PM
Mr Budget, try to get Yamaha 650 or 750 at very cheap price at Layton Audio on St-Catherine street.

kexodusc
03-27-2005, 04:17 AM
Hey, yeah, Mr. Budget, you should really get the Yamaha RX-V650, I hear it's a really good receiver.

Geoffcin
03-27-2005, 05:20 AM
Don't worry about the power ratings, weight etc...The pioneer has a bit bigger power supply, but it's also a less efficient unit...the extra wattage won't make much real world difference, it's not enough extra to be substantial. Truth is, receivers in this price range are all limited in their power outputs, but for most people it's enough...
If you had that Pioneer receiver, I'd be telling you the exact same thing about getting an external power amp for cheap or going easy on the volume knob.

As a complete A/V package, the two receivers are quite comparable...If it makes you feel any better, nobody touches Yamaha in the quality department for receivers under $1500...Pioneer (not their Elite line) has had too much of a hit and miss record in recent years, not sure driving it hard would be adviseable.

I'm not sure I've enver seen documnetation on how the Pioneer is "less efficient" or has any more quality issues than the Yamaha. Please present these fact for us.

Ryanm
03-28-2005, 08:29 AM
Honestly, if you need more wattage than your yamaha is pumping out, then I don't know what to tell you, On my HTR 5760, once i hit the -10db range on volume it's starting to get a bit loud, almost harsh loud, and at -5db, I can hear the music outside of my house. If you need more wattage then that I have to ask if you installed this thing in a concert hall or something? And I totally get what you said about installing it and thinking you were going to be learning how to fly a jet. When I first got my 5760 I was overwhelmed and intimidated, but a few min with the manual and some playing witht he reciever over the next week or so, and now it's just so intuitive, and easy to use.
I have nothing against pioneer, but I'm glad you took kexo's advice, he's good people and knows what he's talking about. I love my yamaha and I think you'll love yours too.

kexodusc
03-28-2005, 09:34 AM
I'm not sure I've enver seen documnetation on how the Pioneer is "less efficient" or has any more quality issues than the Yamaha. Please present these fact for us.
The relative efficiency of the two power supplies is easy, look at the specs, crunch a couple of numbers...badda bing...Yes the Pioneer outputs more power, my comment was more directed towards the relative weight differences...there's not necessarily a 100% relationship between weight and power...some PSU's are more efficient than others...
I have a feeling you already know this though, and this is what puzzles me...why?

As for the qualtiy issues...I'll admit it's mostly anecdotal, based on the experiences of a few members here at AR.com over the last year (some who I've communicated with in public threads, some through PM's), conversations with a few service techs who work on these things, and solicited opinions from sales people who sell both....not that Pioneer is bad...I'm not knocking them.

I suppose someone else could claim that Yamaha's quality history in recent years is more hit-and-miss and support it with anecdotal evidence, too...is this your point?

Curious..is it a policy now to validate absolutely everything that's said with scientific evidence, or just opinions you don't share?

Geoffcin
03-28-2005, 03:39 PM
The relative efficiency of the two power supplies is easy, look at the specs, crunch a couple of numbers...badda bing...Yes the Pioneer outputs more power, my comment was more directed towards the relative weight differences...there's not necessarily a 100% relationship between weight and power...some PSU's are more efficient than others...
I have a feeling you already know this though, and this is what puzzles me...why?

As for the qualtiy issues...I'll admit it's mostly anecdotal, based on the experiences of a few members here at AR.com over the last year (some who I've communicated with in public threads, some through PM's), conversations with a few service techs who work on these things, and solicited opinions from sales people who sell both....not that Pioneer is bad...I'm not knocking them.

I suppose someone else could claim that Yamaha's quality history in recent years is more hit-and-miss and support it with anecdotal evidence, too...is this your point?

Curious..is it a policy now to validate absolutely everything that's said with scientific evidence, or just opinions you don't share?


I buy my receivers based on weight, works every time!

Seriously, leaving out Carver and his whacky amps, and the newer digital jobs, there's a pretty good correlation between weight of the amp, and how much actual current it can deliver. The only really inefficient ones are the pure class A ones, and I don't think your going to find a class A amp in a receiver (perhaps in an A/N receiver)?

I'm sorry if I took you to take for spouting anecdotes. If did that to RGA I would be typing 24/7. The fact of the matter is that if you would have gotten off you ass and done some research on AR ( the consumer based reviews), you would have found out that you are indeed correct! (I really hate you now)

There's 5 consumer reviews for the Pioneer, all of them great except one guy who had to reset his unit when the video went out. Pissed him off so much he brought it back and bought a HK that was twice the price. (he had switched from HK to Pioneer in the first place) He gave the Pioneer unit a 1, which dragged the 4 reviews of 5 stars down to and adjusted 4.33 average. The Yammie has but 2 reviews, but both are spotless so it's a 5. I can assume that at least so far, nobody has gotten a bad one yet....?

Yes Kexo, from now on ALL statements will be vetted by peer review. You will be required to post an abstract on all your statements before posting, and failure to do so means expulsion from the order of water-buffalo.

Can we get back to dissing BOSE now?!

kexodusc
03-28-2005, 06:22 PM
Well weight's often a safe bet to go by, now argument there, but even if you look at some most of the weights of receivers over, say, the last 7 years, you'll find they are getting lighter, yet are actually delivering more power...more energy is being conserved (or is it preserved - not wasted) for what it's meant...Pioneer is no exception to this...they've come a long way and now have really beefy amps right up there with H/K in my opinion.
The problem with a lot of receivers isn't the psu from what I understand, but the switching circuitry that channels the current to 5,6, or 7 channels...but that's techie stuff..

I don't have anything against Pioneer, the first speakers I had in high school were an old Pioneer Cerwin Vega styled floorstanders with huge woofers and tone controls...came with an old Pioneer receiver I actually bought in Germany (so all the font was German). This did me until my first year of college when I traded for a Technics receiver with Pro-Logic...man, that was a bad mistake.

I tend to rely less on the reviews here, most people are quite satisfied with their gear unless it fails, but half of the failures are the fault of the user, not the gear...I like talking with people who can at least convince me they know what they're talking about. There's a few regulars here who appear to be service guys, Woodman comes to mind, there's a few others too....Woodman was one who persuaded me to look at Yamaha and move away from Denon, H/K, Pioneer, Onkyo, Marantz, etc based on his experience....Of course if he owns Yamaha stock or something and doesn't fix his own coffee, let alone electronics, then I guess I have egg on my face...but he seems to know his stuff for the most part...certainly more than me.

mr. budget
03-28-2005, 10:58 PM
I did get the rxv 650, actually it's the htr5760...same thing. I kind of thought that bright was similar to clear because I noticed how clear it is. As for questionong, some guy on the audioholics forum gave me a post about his pioneervsxd1014txk which made me wonder. Geoffcin...It was a poll about favorite recievers here, I think it's archived now...I'll work on getting it...I've actually read and learned a lot...There's just so many people praising yamaha...I knew I couldn't go wrong...It's kind of like I had a doubt when I got those mails on the other site...like if I think a ferret is the right pet for me and read reviews of a lot of people saying the ferret is awesome...so I get the ferret and then a couple guys (pioneer dealers?!?) tell me to get rid of the ferett or return it for the pioneer. Actually I'm really happy with the yamaha, it's growing on me and I'm really happy about this site...before I only used it for help but now it's way better like a hobby.

mr. budget
03-29-2005, 01:38 AM
kexodusc, you know a heck of a lot, esp. when compared to...what do they call it...a newbie. You seem to know a lot and exactly what you're talking about makes a whole lot of sense...Actually I remember before when yamaha's were a lot more expensive. I remember seeing my friend had one and wondering how he could afford it...looked like a dream to me and now I've actually got one. Actually I've always known they were very prestigius. I never knew names like rotel sunfire paradigm etc until I found here. Actually I kind of always had real good senses when it came to electronics...No...the reciever is awesome and like the other fellow said if you get anywhere near zero db it's going to damage hearing anyways and you hear it outside. This is the one for me, I'm actually astounded at everything I got for the money. A good start for me...I finally got everything I wanted now. I got the cerwins because I'm just attracted to them but just like the reciever I had doubts but now I'm just happy that I put this thing together this way and I realize the cerwins are actually what was supposed to be for this system for me and I just used the center for the first time and I was really impressed...What really impressed me was this thing you call a midwoofer...that thing sounds f!@!## awesome. Right now I'm just alternating between a few cds (2pac, eazy-e, love songs, nwa, tecno) I'm very perticular about what I'll listen to and at certain times I wont go near 2pac or the love songs because they mess with me a bit sometimes...But actually when I'm going to bed I put on the slow songs and that's always a good way to make a good atmosphere for rest. This has added depth to movies too...movies are at least 2000% better now. Actually I noticed the yamaha's clarity is really good, just actually picking up this really nice acoustics sound from it sounds like a guitar not a speaker...Sounds better than a guitar...This is a bomb system for me...I know there's better but I'll just stay ignorant to that. Like if you get a camaro v8 you gotta enjoy and like that one and not compare it to the corvette. I just don't like being ripped off but who the hell does? Actuallly I got the last 4 cv v-series 12" in ontario from 2001 audvid. I think too many people were going deaf and they HAD TO DISH THEM TO AVOID LAWSUITS. Anyways I got em a few months ago and all I was thinking about was bass...would have got 15's if I could. Actually I got in a lot of **** for them, almost evicted, but that's not really my fault...a lot of people aren't nice to me. Actually if I had a proper place I'd like a sub or two, more amps, etc but for now this will hold me over. How's that sub working out kexodusc...I've lost a bit of money recently and I'm feeling bad about it but if I learn from it it only makes me more experienced and wiser. Kexodusc...what do you think about jvcs products...I'll be back...thanks.

kexodusc
03-29-2005, 04:33 AM
I don't really hear much about JVC, but that's probably a GOOD thing...With brands like Sony, Kenwood, JVC, Panasonic and Pioneer being sold in place like Sears, you usually hear a ton of bad feedback about them...I think that's BS, though, a lot of Sony, Panasonic, and Pioneer stuff is really good, and just because they're not sold at some high end audio-snob shop doesn't mean they're any less capable.
I have a 6 year old JVC 32" TV and it works fine, has a billion hours on it, and doesn't seem any worse for wear.
From what I understand, many JVC components (including my TV) have some chipsets and components made by Matsu****a (The company that owns Panasonic/Technics). I've read good things about their DVD players.
Your best bet is to ask questions here about specific models, do some research. Most manufacturers make decent stuff, but every once in a blue moon, they design a lemon...you want to avoid that stuff.

mr. budget
04-23-2005, 02:48 PM
Geoffcin, this documentation was on audioholics a few months ago on their forums and people were asked about which is their favorite brand reciever and a lot of people were pro-yamaha, I doubt that I should buy a reciever based on a pole alone, and the ears are the best judge. I had to make a budget buy and the htr5760 was there at the time and it does kind of outweigh the competition in features and value at the $550 dollar "storebought" price range. They want 699 for the pioneer (vsxd1014txk) at the other store. When I get some real money I'd have to do some serious auditioning and not just get the one that rates or seems best.

oddeoowphil38
04-23-2005, 04:58 PM
Geoffcin, this documentation was on audioholics a few months ago on their forums and people were asked about which is their favorite brand reciever and a lot of people were pro-yamaha, I doubt that I should buy a reciever based on a pole alone, and the ears are the best judge. I had to make a budget buy and the htr5760 was there at the time and it does kind of outweigh the competition in features and value at the $550 dollar "storebought" price range. They want 699 for the pioneer (vsxd1014txk) at the other store. When I get some real money I'd have to do some serious auditioning and not just get the one that rates or seems best.
Well, I am compelled to add my two cents here folks. First of all, the yammie rxv-650 and the htr-5760 are NOT the same even though they look a feel indentical. True, both are made by Yamaha and come from the same manufacturing processes. However, the rxv series power rating are true ratings in that the 95rms X 7 channels are rated from 20 Hz -20 K Hz across all 7 channels. On the other hand, the htr series power ratings are based on the rms power at 1,000 Hz. In other words, that power is guaranteed only at the 1,000 Hz range not across the full bandwidth. What does this mean, basically the rxv series is a better with respect to true power ratings. I am not overly concerned what it will do dynamically as I am much more concerned with what I get All the time. Pioneer rates all of their receivers based on what they do at say 1,000 Hz or 1khz. The same holds for their elite models. I love my rxv-650 and it is by far the best receiver I have ever owned. I plan on buying thr rxv-2400 or the 2500 as soon as I get the money together. One thing I must point out about my yammie is that I can turn it all the way to "0" and it still is quite stable at that point. This is why I love it so much. It is layed back and I can turn it up to insane levels yet is still won't break a sweat. I never could do that with my Onkyo or Sony let alone my Pioneer. Personally, I believe that yammie and Denon make the best receivers period. I also like the Onkyo and HK too but either of them can do what my yammie does. Just thought I would clarify a few things here and I hope this helps you feel as though you made a good descision. By the way, I am a Paradigm and yammie fan for life!!!!! :cool:

mr. budget
04-23-2005, 07:21 PM
No the rxv650 and htr5760 are exact identicals in all respects (except faceplate or something),,.so are these the same... respectively, htr575/rxv550, htr574/rxv450, htr573/rxv350. They are all the same power...see www.yamaha.com on it's US side and do comparisons.

oddeoowphil38
04-23-2005, 07:53 PM
True same power ratings but NOT true how the power is rated. Go to the FAQ link and you can read for yourself. It will explain this to you and explain why the HTR line is sold to mass merchants/on-line and fully authorized. In other words, the RXV line is not authorized by Yamaha to be sold on line or to mass merchants like Best Buy only to independent dealers nationwide. An amp rated at 1,000 Hz will not give you as much power as an amp rated to give power across the full bandwidth of 20 Hz to 20K Hz. Anyways, I ma just trying to be helpfull not a know it all so to speak. Looks like you have a nice setup. Where are you from?

Eric Z
04-24-2005, 04:36 AM
The 5760 and 650 are close enough that you won't be able to tell the difference. Enjoy your 5760; it's a very nice receiver!

kexodusc
04-24-2005, 05:23 AM
Well, I am compelled to add my two cents here folks. First of all, the yammie rxv-650 and the htr-5760 are NOT the same even though they look a feel indentical.
They actually look a bit different.


However, the rxv series power rating are true ratings in that the 95rms X 7 channels are rated from 20 Hz -20 K Hz across all 7 channels.
Not exactly - pay careful attention to the rating methods...Both RX-V and HTR lines are rated using the goofy "receiver" rating scheme...the amp is capable of 95 watts into 2 channels across the full bandwidth...as you add more channels to the mix, this begins to drop considerably...In this Yamaha's case, I would suspect it to be around 35 to 40 watts/channel with all channels driven..this is quite good.


On the other hand, the htr series power ratings are based on the rms power at 1,000 Hz. In other words, that power is guaranteed only at the 1,000 Hz range not across the full bandwidth. What does this mean, basically the rxv series is a better with respect to true power ratings.
This is NOT true! The HTR line does represent it's ratings using the 1kHz sine wave method...but also measures them the exact same way the RX-V line does (and you could easily run the 1 kHz test on the RX-V line - which does happen in some markets)...this is clearly indicated in the manuals. The truth is these things are speced the same and should perform identically...regardless of which test results are presented in product literature.


I am not overly concerned what it will do dynamically as I am much more concerned with what I get All the time. Pioneer rates all of their receivers based on what they do at say 1,000 Hz or 1khz. The same holds for their elite models.
If you are concerned at all, you should do a bit more research on the issue. Pioneer rates their receivers using both methods, as many do...there is a lot of sense in selecting 1 kHz to do the test...this is more typical of the true playback of most sources. The 20Hz to 20 kHz rating is almost always just a few watts less. Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, etc use these rating schemes to try to provide some sense of comparability to the likes of Kenwood, Sony, etc, who tend to present the highest number possible without qualification. I don't blame them one bit, if consumer ignorance persuades them to buy a Sony rated at 100 watts because it appears more powerful than a Harman Kardon rated at 35 watts, then beat them at their own game. Generally (but not always) an amplifier will rate higher at all tests if it is in fact more powerful.

As for the Pioneer and Yamaha's, well, you can bet most Pioneer models will have more true power capable of being simultaneously delivered, full bandwidth, to all channels than a comparable Yamaha. Does this make it sound better? Not necessarily - power and sound quality aren't the same thing. Is the extra power needed...probably not, and if the Yamaha isn't enough power, the Pioneer isn't going to give you much more at all.

Most of us would listen to loud music at 1/2 to 5 watts per channel. ...the difference between 50 watts/channel and 100 watts per channel is 3 dB...barely noticeable in most cases...Kind of makes these 100 watt figures a bit less meaningful.
Power is important, but if you were to look at the difference in power between the RX-V650 and 750 (10 watts or something foolish), it's not even enough to generate 1 more decibel!!! If you need more power, you should start by no less than doubling what you currently have in your amplifier/receiver...


One thing I must point out about my yammie is that I can turn it all the way to "0" and it still is quite stable at that point. This is why I love it so much. It is layed back and I can turn it up to insane levels yet is still won't break a sweat. I never could do that with my Onkyo or Sony let alone my Pioneer.
The "0" reference level is arbitrary and varies from one manufacturer to the next...the Yamaha's are capable of going to + 12 or + 16 dB...at the "0" level, your amp is delivering somewhere around 6 watts per channel on average...dynamic peaks in the music or soundtrack will sent this into the 90's and possibly beyond...depending of couse on the signal strenght of the input source (but that's another topic).
I can't speak for older Pioneers, but the new ones are quite powerful...usually more so than the same priced Yamaha and Denons...I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Pioneer Elite, or one of the larger Pioneers today.

oddeoowphil38
04-24-2005, 06:57 AM
They actually look a bit different.

Not exactly - pay careful attention to the rating methods...Both RX-V and HTR lines are rated using the goofy "receiver" rating scheme...the amp is capable of 95 watts into 2 channels across the full bandwidth...as you add more channels to the mix, this begins to drop considerably...In this Yamaha's case, I would suspect it to be around 35 to 40 watts/channel with all channels driven..this is quite good.

This is NOT true! The HTR line does represent it's ratings using the 1kHz sine wave method...but also measures them the exact same way the RX-V line does (and you could easily run the 1 kHz test on the RX-V line - which does happen in some markets)...this is clearly indicated in the manuals. The truth is these things are speced the same and should perform identically...regardless of which test results are presented in product literature.

If you are concerned at all, you should do a bit more research on the issue. Pioneer rates their receivers using both methods, as many do...there is a lot of sense in selecting 1 kHz to do the test...this is more typical of the true playback of most sources. The 20Hz to 20 kHz rating is almost always just a few watts less. Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, etc use these rating schemes to try to provide some sense of comparability to the likes of Kenwood, Sony, etc, who tend to present the highest number possible without qualification. I don't blame them one bit, if consumer ignorance persuades them to buy a Sony rated at 100 watts because it appears more powerful than a Harman Kardon rated at 35 watts, then beat them at their own game. Generally (but not always) an amplifier will rate higher at all tests if it is in fact more powerful.

As for the Pioneer and Yamaha's, well, you can bet most Pioneer models will have more true power capable of being simultaneously delivered, full bandwidth, to all channels than a comparable Yamaha. Does this make it sound better? Not necessarily - power and sound quality aren't the same thing. Is the extra power needed...probably not, and if the Yamaha isn't enough power, the Pioneer isn't going to give you much more at all.

Most of us would listen to loud music at 1/2 to 5 watts per channel. ...the difference between 50 watts/channel and 100 watts per channel is 3 dB...barely noticeable in most cases...Kind of makes these 100 watt figures a bit less meaningful.
Power is important, but if you were to look at the difference in power between the RX-V650 and 750 (10 watts or something foolish), it's not even enough to generate 1 more decibel!!! If you need more power, you should start by no less than doubling what you currently have in your amplifier/receiver...


The "0" reference level is arbitrary and varies from one manufacturer to the next...the Yamaha's are capable of going to + 12 or + 16 dB...at the "0" level, your amp is delivering somewhere around 6 watts per channel on average...dynamic peaks in the music or soundtrack will sent this into the 90's and possibly beyond...depending of couse on the signal strenght of the input source (but that's another topic).
I can't speak for older Pioneers, but the new ones are quite powerful...usually more so than the same priced Yamaha and Denons...I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Pioneer Elite, or one of the larger Pioneers today.
Hello there just read your reply and let me be the first to say that I never meant to dis Pioneer or any other brand for that matter. But, I am going by what I read on yammie's web site and what I have experienced myself as an owner of both Pioneer and Yammie receivers. The "0" reference point I was referring to is at an insane spl level yet my yammie doesn't break a sweat. Actually, my volume control is from -80 to + 8. True, other brands employ different ranges with respect to volume. However, my yammie remaining stable at "0" displays awesome performance. The SQ is also quite amazing-I am taken back just how clean the amplifier is. Thus, I have owned Onkyo, Pioneer, Panasonic to name a few and NONE of these were even close to the performance I get from my yammie. To be honest, I do like the Onkyos receivers and Denon/HK seem to muster a lot of positive reviews. Likewise, the Pioneer 1014 seems to favor quite well too. I think it boils down to personal preference. Some people prefer Ford whereas others prefer Chevrolet when purchasing a car. Similarly, some consumers prefer Pioneer and some prefer yammie. Which one is best? Depends on who you ask. Personally, I will stay with yammie and I hope to soon own an RX-V2500.

kexodusc
04-24-2005, 08:13 AM
I didn't get the impression you were slamming Pioneer, just that maybe you are a bit out of date with the current models...Pioneer makes good stuff, as good as Yamaha or Denon - sure, they just have a different way going about it.
I think were you to buy any $400 receiver today you would find it to perform similar to the 650, which I am a big fan of. Receivers have been rapidly improving over the last few years as the Home Theater boom continues, more competitive than ever and even the entry level product are seeing the benefits.
I bought the RX-V1400 which I thought was a good buy, but since I use external power amps, the 650 or 5760 probably would have been enough for me while saving me some money...live and learn I guess.
You are quite right that personal preference plays a big role in all of this, thank goodness for that - how boring would it be if everyone owned the same gear?

Geoffcin
04-24-2005, 08:57 AM
I didn't get the impression you were slamming Pioneer, just that maybe you are a bit out of date with the current models...Pioneer makes good stuff, as good as Yamaha or Denon - sure, they just have a different way going about it.
I think were you to buy any $400 receiver today you would find it to perform similar to the 650, which I am a big fan of. Receivers have been rapidly improving over the last few years as the Home Theater boom continues, more competitive than ever and even the entry level product are seeing the benefits.
I bought the RX-V1400 which I thought was a good buy, but since I use external power amps, the 650 or 5760 probably would have been enough for me while saving me some money...live and learn I guess.
You are quite right that personal preference plays a big role in all of this, thank goodness for that - how boring would it be if everyone owned the same gear?

I've done some serious listening of receivers in the $500-$1000 dollar range, and I've had a hard time telling any difference in sound quality between them. I actually had to move up to the flagship recievers to hear a very small, but noticable difference in sound quality. That's a pretty big jump in $$$ for just a little improvment. Rather than go that route I decided to go with external amplification for my mains.

My big question is why does Yamaha name their top recievers the same as their motorcycles?! Perhaps you need a helmet when using the RX-Z9!

shokhead
04-24-2005, 10:16 AM
Hello there just read your reply and let me be the first to say that I never meant to dis Pioneer or any other brand for that matter. But, I am going by what I read on yammie's web site and what I have experienced myself as an owner of both Pioneer and Yammie receivers. The "0" reference point I was referring to is at an insane spl level yet my yammie doesn't break a sweat. Actually, my volume control is from -80 to + 8. True, other brands employ different ranges with respect to volume. However, my yammie remaining stable at "0" displays awesome performance. The SQ is also quite amazing-I am taken back just how clean the amplifier is. Thus, I have owned Onkyo, Pioneer, Panasonic to name a few and NONE of these were even close to the performance I get from my yammie. To be honest, I do like the Onkyos receivers and Denon/HK seem to muster a lot of positive reviews. Likewise, the Pioneer 1014 seems to favor quite well too. I think it boils down to personal preference. Some people prefer Ford whereas others prefer Chevrolet when purchasing a car. Similarly, some consumers prefer Pioneer and some prefer yammie. Which one is best? Depends on who you ask. Personally, I will stay with yammie and I hope to soon own an RX-V2500.

If your running it at 0db,i wonder if you speaker setting are right. I like it loud but 0db is pretty up there.

oddeoowphil38
04-24-2005, 12:30 PM
Kex well said. You seem to know your stuff. Remember, I am a newbie.....lol. Guess I have a lot to learn and that is what keeps me going. Take care.

oddeoowphil38
04-24-2005, 12:33 PM
Well said there Geoff. Maybe I should rethink this idea of me upgrading to a yammie rx-v 2500. Sounds like I may be better off spending my money elsewhere. Time for me to look into the amplifier thing and use my 650 as a preamp so to speak...hmmm. Thanks!

oddeoowphil38
04-24-2005, 12:56 PM
If your running it at 0db,i wonder if you speaker setting are right. I like it loud but 0db is pretty up there.
Hello there Shok. No, my settings are correct as far as I know. I dont listen to music that loud. I just know my yammie can play down to "0" level and still remain stable. Heck, I usually dont turn it up past -20. Sometimes, I will when watching a dvd. It seems I do have to turn it up more when in 5.1 mode. My towers are rated to take 500 rms I believe so I am no where close that. The YPAO even set my Titans as large. I do prefer a large soundstage myself. Paradigm fan4life<<<<<<<<<<< :cool:

kexodusc
04-24-2005, 03:01 PM
Adding an amp or two to the RX-V650 would be a good step up...especially if you use all digital inputs to limit the number of AD conversions...A worthwhile investment for the sound improvement, especially if you buy a used amp for $100-300 somewhere...

I'm not familiar with your main speakers, can you tell us about them?

shokhead
04-24-2005, 04:29 PM
If i use the auto setup my Denon sets mine to lg also but i just that back to small. Must take alot to push those. Seems more of a reason to set them to small and let the sub take some stress of the Yamaha. Probably a lower x over 60 or 40?

oddeoowphil38
04-27-2005, 05:33 PM
Kex, my towers are nothing speacial really. I thought they had a good sound and I bought em. However, they are much larger and take up a lot of space than what I thought so I plan to upgrade as soon as my budget allows. Each tower has (2) 12" drivers, 51/4" mid, and a large tweeter. The soundstage is huge and they do ok for now but I hope to have Paradigm Monitor 3's very soon.

oddeoowphil38
04-27-2005, 05:40 PM
Shok, I have played around the X-over point several times and for some reason 90 HZ seems to work the best for me. My towers and sub blend better at that point. At 80 HZ the towers draw too much attention to them and are much less seamless. At 100HZ, the sub seems to draw attention as well and as a result I have to turn it down considerably. At 90 HZ the speakers blend so well that it is seemless.

shokhead
04-27-2005, 06:44 PM
You kinda made it sound like you had some huge towers so i thought a lower x over. I use 80 for the same reason you use 90. :D