replacement power cables?? any advice? [Archive]

ruadmaa

03-13-2005, 03:04 AM

Audioman00

03-13-2005, 11:57 AM

i appreicate you're info. take care.

Shwamdoo

03-13-2005, 03:04 PM

I would suggest giving it a try. There may actually be an audible difference, espesially on CD players etc. I was skeptical about a power cords ability to effect sonic performance until I auditioned several different kinds in my home. That said, your money is probably better spent on other components. It's interesting to see how a seemingly insignificant component can affect the sound.

Mtbrider

03-15-2005, 01:38 PM

Better power cords can and do make a difference. I would suggest you check out signalcable.com or vhaudio.com for their offerings. They both offer a trial period, so you can try them out and send them back if you're not satisfied. Only YOUR ears can decide what you like or don't like.

markw

03-15-2005, 01:52 PM

Well, now that we've got the definitive answer from a reputable source, I guess we can all pack up and go home now.

It didn't do a dang thing for my Marantz 7C.

Seriously, if you want to play around with this, make sure that you don't have to go inside the unit and desolder/solder anything to play with this. When you find it really doesn't improve anything, you will find you won't get your money back for the cable and you will have voided any warranty you might have bad on the receiver.

If you want to maks a significant change, play with speaker placement or moving furniture in the room. Now THERE'S a real worthwhile tweak. Free, harmless and guaranteed results.

Mtbrider

03-15-2005, 02:32 PM

I guess because I've heard positive improvements in changing power cords and because I don't have 1200+ posts here that it somehow makes me disreputable. Your ears didn't like the result with your Marantz 7C, so everybody who hears differences is wrong. Of course, everyone has the same equipment as you do, in the same room, they have the same musical tastes....and they listen with your ears! Amazing! Another possiblility for the original poster is to try a Volex 17604. They can be had for less than $7 from www.newark.com. I would agree with markw that you should not change the power cord if you have to go inside the unit and desolder/solder the original cord. Only consider experimentation if your Yamaha has an IEC connection and detachable PC.

markw

03-15-2005, 02:36 PM

That's a pretty absolute statement. I merely "proved" that it is not true.

Sorry if you took offense to it. (fingers crossed behind back ;))

Mtbrider

03-15-2005, 02:44 PM

Sorry, I failed to detect any "proof" that you offered. Stating your opinion is proof? And, of course you WERE trying to be offensive. I hope the original poster can take something useful from this thread.

Woochifer

03-15-2005, 06:04 PM

Hometheaterhifi did a listening test with power cords a couple of months ago. Conclusion? Nobody in that listening session could reliably identify significant differences between the power cords tested.

Even if people could reliably identify differences between power cords, do they make enough of an improvement in your system's performance to justify the often obscenely high prices charged for these products? That question is for you to decide. Personally, I would just stick with a stock power cord and invest the money saved into other parts of the system where the return on investment is better. Markw's right in that room rearrangements and system adjustments more often than not make noticeable (and measureable) differences in system performance, and don't cost a dime.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

StereoHead

03-16-2005, 09:42 AM

I was under the impression that a wire is gust a wire. This all changed when I decided to upgrade my system with newer wires. I did not want to get burned in this considering the cost of hi-end cables. So I did my research and began to learning about the different materials that go into a good wire and how they react to a audio system. The first place I hit was ebay and sterophile’s marketplace for good cables at cheap prices. After 2 weeks I found this company called zombie cables on ebay. Now I looked all over the web and could no find any such company, but the auctions said allot, giving critical technical specs and a company profile on there philosophy – I was scared to say the least about this but decided that it looks and sounds good in writing. 2 weeks ago I received the power cords and even had one custom built to 8’ from the distributor on ebay. I was hoping that I did not need to return them because they do nothing to improve sound. I was amassed on how much change took place- mostly for the good. My system sounded deeper in the bass area and the highs sounded as if a layer of smoke was removed from the sound. Not to say that I did not love the sound that I already was hearing from my system, it gust was amazing that cables make a difference, maybe more so then changing components, which would have bin 3 times the cost. Zombie cables highly recommended at there price- sounded better then the audioquest power cord that I also purchased and am now returning.

markw

03-16-2005, 09:56 AM

Even the experts couldn't discern any differences when the DUT was unknown.

I see this is your first post. Welcome.

"...it gust was amazing that cables make a difference, maybe more so then changing components, which would have bin 3 times the cost."

Isn't that laying it on a little deep?

Pardon me for saying this, but when a glowing report for a particular product is the basis of one's first post, a red flag always goes up. You wouldn't by chance have a vested interest in them, would you?

mjon99

03-16-2005, 11:43 AM

I'm a complete layman when it comes to this but I thought the only function of a power cord was to transfer electricity from the wall outlet to the power supply. (Although I'm probably wrong when I even say that.) So I guess I could understand maybe switching out the power supply, but switching out the power cord seems pointless.

E-Stat

03-16-2005, 01:55 PM

I have just discovered that some people think that replacing the 'stock' power cable to your amp/receiver will help sound quality? sounds crazy but hey ya never know, any advice as to what replacement cable I would use for a Yamaha receiver? Or does the story hold any water? thanks for any input on this subject.

My anecdotal experience is that power cords can improve the sound of some systems. It depends upon the resolution of the system in question and various environmental factors. The usual argument against such being the case is "how can the last six feet of whatever wire improve miles and miles of mediocre aluminum wiring?"

While the jury is out from a strictly objective standpoint, the answer is evident if you reverse the usual assumption. Why is the first six feet important? The answer is that the villains you are combatting are not found miles away in a sub station. They are found within your house, often inches or feet away from your receiver in the guise as digital devices (CDPs, Cable boxes, etc.) or other RF generating sources found elsewhere in your house. "Fancy" power cords are more than just wires and plugs. They are typically shielded, sometimes in multiple ways, and often include RF trap circuits wired into them. Consequently, they may reduce the amount of RF injected into the amplification stages.

What I detect with better cords in place is a darker, quieter background that allows more musical detail to come forth and be more evident. The differences are not night and day in magnitude. On the other hand, they can offer cost effective improvements for those who value greater musical detail in their systems.

If you are willing to waste $15 bucks, I would second the vote for buying the shielded 14 gauge Volex cable referenced above. That cable can determine whether or not your system is sensitive to power cords.

rw

musicoverall

03-17-2005, 05:19 AM

The answer is that the villains you are combatting are not found miles away in a sub station. They are found within your house, often inches or feet away from your receiver in the guise as digital devices (CDPs, Cable boxes, etc.) or other RF generating sources found elsewhere in your house.
rw

That makes sense!

It's been years and a few upgrades ago that I tried power cables with no success... er... I mean, they didn't change the sound, "success" being a relative term in these parts! My speaker cable listening tests are over tonight (hurray!!!!) and if it the results turn out the way I think they will, I might make another attempt with power cords.

richmon

03-21-2005, 12:14 PM

When I first started putting together an 'above average' sound system, I couldn't believe that people spent hundreds of dollars on power cords. Nonsense I thought.

I just added a $130. VHAudio powerCord to my Adcom GFP-750 preamp. Clearly noticable improvement, my check out disc is always Dire Straits 'Brothers in Arms'. On the song brothers in arms, they're is a drum sound that I always thought was some kind of wood block being struck. The Power cord improvement untangles this, I now hear the drummer hitting the rim of the drum at the same time he hits the kick drum. The whole sound of the system is cleaner, more soundstage, more 'I never heard that before'.
I think you have to have a certain level of resolving stereo to hear a power cord improvement, I have about 4K into my audio hobby, modest to some, expensive to others, but I listens to alot of music and want the best sound I can afford.

In my system, the $130 was money well spent, I'm hearing my CD's afresh, hard to tear myself away at times.

risabet

03-21-2005, 12:35 PM

I have heard differences between power cables, Specifically the stock cables and my current choices the Zu cables "Birth". Are these differences enormous, not in this system, but I have heard greater differences in other systems. In this system the difference is generally quieter backgrounds and thus better depth and imaging. Can I prove it, no. Do I need to, no. This is a subjective belief on my part.

Shwamdoo

03-21-2005, 03:44 PM

Power cords and other in-line modifications have an influence on the quality of a stereo's sound for one reason. In the instant when an amplifier, pre amplifier, or playback device calls for a bit more voltage anything from the power cord to the outlet can cause impedence. In-line upgrades increase the flow of electricity to the stereo so that performance doesn't rise and fall. Depending on how good the electrics in your house are, you may or may not notice a huge improvement with upgrades. However, it is concievable that in-line modifications could have a positive influence on the sound of a stereo.

psonic

03-21-2005, 05:32 PM

"If you are willing to waste $15 bucks, I would second the vote for buying the shielded 14 gauge Volex cable referenced above. That cable can determine whether or not your system is sensitive to power cords."

Thanks for the tip, I just bought one, $12 shipped and it is very nice and chunky. My audio refinement has a wimpy 18awg IEC and I can't help but think this will improve things due to extra current capability and shielding. Analogy -I remember having a dead car battery one winter and my smallish jumper cables would not crank the engine...borrowed a heavy set from a motorist and it started right up. My cable could not deliver the current. So I do think they may help over the little stock cords, but I also realize that our walls are full of 14awg romex and a 10awg cord is nothing but a fire hose hooked to a garden outlet. How can 5 last feet of 10awg cryogenically treated cable help? I have no idea. Maybe it is the quality of the shielding that sets these cables apart? Maybe we just listen a bit better, more carefully when we add a new component? This seems to be a very grey area. Oh well, at least with a $12 cord there's no buyer's remorse.

ruadmaa

03-22-2005, 03:23 AM

risabet

03-22-2005, 01:06 PM

The power cord that came with your equipment can handle any and all power requirements of your equipment. There is no conceivable condition that can possibly occur including meltdown of your entire piece of equipment that the stock power cord cannot address.

The fact that it can't be conceived doesn't mean it can't happen. Let's hope we don't find out.

wfontenot

03-22-2005, 04:36 PM

risabet

03-22-2005, 09:04 PM

Are you guys buying the upgraded wall outlet also? After reading the posts it can be argued either way - if the cable will actually make a difference. Upgrading the wall outlet does make sense and it is cheap.

I have replaced the stock outlets with hospital grade 20 amp outlets, available at Home Depot for about $14.00 each. The originals were 30 year old, $.59 specials, the new outlets were a substantial, audible improvement. This is an inexpensive tweak that I highly recommend.

A-Audiophile

03-28-2005, 12:33 PM

ruadmaa

03-28-2005, 02:24 PM

Power cables DO make a difference.....but it all depends on whether or not the equiptment is sensative enough to a different power cord to make the difference audible. Putting premium gas in a non proformance car will make no difference either....same difference.

Let me see, the electric power you receive in your home has been generated many miles away. It is transmitted via copper cables for that distance which can be quite significant. It then reaches your home and traveles throughout your entire home on copper cables. After all this copper electrical transmission you are telling us that the last foot of cable makes any difference whatsoever. Amazing.

By the way, you don't happen to be shilling for a high end powercord company are you?

musicoverall

03-28-2005, 06:34 PM

E-Stat

03-28-2005, 07:12 PM

Power Cables Make No Difference
Just curious. What is the basis for your opinion?

Let me see, the electric power you receive in your home has been generated many miles away. It is transmitted via copper cables...
As I mentioned in my earlier post, you are not focusing on the relevant issue. Proponents of aftermarket cords do not assert they are improving the quality of the power delivery from the local sub station. The real issue is that there are a host of RF generating devices found in most modern homes (save the Amish) capable of polluting the otherwise clean incoming line. As for me, I have two computers, an 802.11 G wireless router, five cordless phones, two cell phones, three digital cable boxes, a pager, and five CD/DVD players/recorders that stay powered up most of the time. On a related topic, I regularly clean all the contacts in my systems, both signal and power alike, using Caig Pro Gold to remove the inevitable build up of oxidation capable of introducing a similar HF tizziness.

I have spoken with several audio designers who share that view (and do not themselves market such cords).

I've also read of proposals for transmitting computer data directly through the power line. I think that would have a disasterous audible effect on high resolution audio systems.

rw

ruadmaa

03-28-2005, 08:12 PM

[QUOTE=ruadmaa]Let me see, the electric power you receive in your home has been generated many miles away. It is transmitted via copper cables for that distance which can be quite significant. It then reaches your home and traveles throughout your entire home on copper cables. After all this copper electrical transmission you are telling us that the last foot of cable makes any difference whatsoever. Amazing. QUOTE]

But during its travels of many miles, it doesn't have to deal with the interference of one's own audio equipment. The argument I heard is that your own gear backwashes this noise and the power cord helps to clean that up. E-Stat can more fully argue this point as I have no experience with aftermarket power cords. But I can't dismiss them out of hand based on theory alone.

I'll bet you that to date, no one has been able to tell the difference in audio quality with any aftermarket cable and the stock power cord that came with the equipment under any valid double blind tests period. If you say yes, please post it so we can all see.

I can also see that it is rather pointless to argue with you. That being the case, I suggest you go out and buy the very most expensive power cord available so that you too can enjoy the improved performance it will deliver. For other readers I suggest that you save your money, the cord that came with your equipment is just fine.

psonic

03-28-2005, 09:29 PM

ruadmaa

03-29-2005, 02:42 AM

I suggest you buy no power cord...won't help a mini-boombox system with plastic speakers.

Just a little information in rebuttal to your ignorant diatribe. I have been into high fidelity audio since the 1960's which is most likely long before you were born.

E-Stat

03-29-2005, 05:04 AM

I can also see that it is rather pointless to argue with you.
No need to argue. I do find it pointless, however, to suggest that theory alone explains everything in matters of musical reproduction.

That being the case, I suggest you go out and buy the very most expensive power cord available so that you too can enjoy the improved performance it will deliver.
Why would anyone do that?

rw

musicoverall

03-29-2005, 05:26 AM

I'll bet you that to date, no one has been able to tell the difference in audio quality with any aftermarket cable and the stock power cord that came with the equipment under any valid double blind tests period. If you say yes, please post it so we can all see.

I can also see that it is rather pointless to argue with you. That being the case, I suggest you go out and buy the very most expensive power cord available so that you too can enjoy the improved performance it will deliver. For other readers I suggest that you save your money, the cord that came with your equipment is just fine.

I'm not aware of any double blind tests on power cords except for one that was done recently and posted on The Audio Lab... which, by the way, is where discussions of DBT belong rather than the Cable forum. That being said, why do you say the cord that comes with equipment is "just fine"? Have you tried aftermarket power cords? If not, how do you know what is fine and what isn't? If you want to argue, go ahead, but all I'm doing is asking a few questions. Care to answer or do you simply not have a valid reason for your claim?

ruadmaa

03-29-2005, 05:41 AM

I'm not aware of any double blind tests on power cords except for one that was done recently and posted on The Audio Lab... which, by the way, is where discussions of DBT belong rather than the Cable forum. That being said, why do you say the cord that comes with equipment is "just fine"? Have you tried aftermarket power cords? If not, how do you know what is fine and what isn't? If you want to argue, go ahead, but all I'm doing is asking a few questions. Care to answer or do you simply not have a valid reason for your claim?

I highly suggest that you go to: www.audioholics.com, go to the forums section and then do a search on power cords. I believe you will find all the necessary information on power cords there.

E-Stat

03-29-2005, 06:19 AM

I highly suggest that you go to: www.audioholics.com, go to the forums section and then do a search on power cords. I believe you will find all the necessary information on power cords there.
Ok, I did find one article, Do you likewise qualify your speculation as did this author?

I am not referring to cables with inbuilt filters or other esoterica here, just perfectly ordinary mains leads.

Those are the types to which I refer and find benefit.

rw

ruadmaa

03-29-2005, 07:34 AM

Ok, I did find one article, Do you likewise qualify your speculation as did this author?

I am not referring to cables with inbuilt filters or other esoterica here, just perfectly ordinary mains leads.

Those are the types to which I refer and find benefit.

rw

I would also highly recommend that you go to the following site: http://sound.westhost.com/index.html When you get there do a main index search, then click on site map. When you get there simply click on the Cables Pt 1 choice and then power leads. I think you will find all that you need to know on power cords at that location. I hope you make it to that site as it is very infomative in regard to power cords. This is also an excellent site for all kinds of audio information.

musicoverall

03-29-2005, 07:43 AM

I would also highly recommend that you go to the following site: http://sound.westhost.com/index.html When you get there do a main index search, then click on site map. When you get there simply click on the Cables Pt 1 choice and then power leads. I think you will find all that you need to know on power cords at that location. I hope you make it to that site as it is very infomative in regard to power cords. This is also an excellent site for all kinds of audio information.

I'll check that out later today. What I got from your first site is someone who replaced the stock power cord on his Yamaha receiver couldn't hear a difference. Not much teeth in that experiment.

musicoverall

03-29-2005, 09:48 AM

I think you will find all that you need to know on power cords at that location. I hope you make it to that site as it is very infomative in regard to power cords. This is also an excellent site for all kinds of audio information.

It tells me "much" of what one might need to know about power cords. There is one thing missing: how they sound. All that electrical theory and not one listening test. But if one wanted to know electrical and power cord theory, that site seems to be one place to go.

I'm not being purposefully contentious because, as I said before, I have no personal experience with power cords. Obviously, neither does the writer on that site... except with measuring them. And there is the everpresent need among what E-Stat termed "non-experiential theoreticians" to jump to conclusions when the truth is that even if the writer did engage in blind listening tests and failed to hear a difference, his only valid claim at that point is that HE did not hear differences with that cord in that system on that day. He didn't even bother to test his theories but simply took them on faith. If that's objectivity at work, I accept and champion subjectivity.

ruadmaa

03-29-2005, 03:16 PM

It tells me "much" of what one might need to know about power cords. There is one thing missing: how they sound. All that electrical theory and not one listening test. But if one wanted to know electrical and power cord theory, that site seems to be one place to go.

I'm not being purposefully contentious because, as I said before, I have no personal experience with power cords. Obviously, neither does the writer on that site... except with measuring them. And there is the everpresent need among what E-Stat termed "non-experiential theoreticians" to jump to conclusions when the truth is that even if the writer did engage in blind listening tests and failed to hear a difference, his only valid claim at that point is that HE did not hear differences with that cord in that system on that day. He didn't even bother to test his theories but simply took them on faith. If that's objectivity at work, I accept and champion subjectivity.

Suite yourself, I do however, find it hard to believe that any major manufacturer of audio/video equipment be it Sony or Lexicon would issue their equipment without the proper and optimum power cord.

Personally I have replaced power cords for several different reasons, none of them having to do with enhancing performance those being:

An old power cord that was brittle
A cord that was damaged
Or simply a cord that had burnt out at the end and needed repaired.

I noticed no difference in performance of equipment after power cords had been replaced.

I believe you might learn quite a bit more by going through some of the threads at the Audioholics site.

From my personal point of view, I have given you the best advice that I know of. No skin off my back if you choose to ignore it.

musicoverall

03-29-2005, 04:16 PM

From my personal point of view, I have given you the best advice that I know of. No skin off my back if you choose to ignore it.

Understood and appreciated. However, it "might" be skin off my back if I choose to take your advice. I'll never know until I try. All I have to lose is a little time if they truly do nothing in my system. Even so, the best advice I could give for someone is to try it. Just because my system might not be sensitive to aftermarket power cables doesn't mean their system isn't.

E-Stat

03-29-2005, 06:19 PM

I would also highly recommend that you go to the following site

Neither you nor Mr. Elliott consider the RF issues I raised. His comments are solely based upon current delivery issues using conventional cords. Just like the guys at Audioholics. And they freely acknowledge it. Theory is great when it considers all possibilities.

I think you will find all that you need to know on power cords at that location.
Except of course for direct experience. I have listened to a number of aftermarket cords in my system and have already drawn conclusions based upon that experience. I find experience far more valuable than theory and speculation.

This is also an excellent site for all kinds of audio information.
It is fine for the average DIY enthusiast as the site suggests. It does not attempt to address the peformance envelope of the highest resolution audio components.

rw

wfontenot

03-29-2005, 07:07 PM

I know this had been a large debate, but I did hear a difference when switching cables. I was auditioning a Jolida 202A today and the question of power cables came up with the dealer. He switched the power cables as I listened (which can be done without turning the unit off and on) and there was a difference. It was subtle, but there was a difference. The stock unit, which is much beafier than the lamp cord types, sounded cloudy compared to the other unit. I cannot remember the unit right now (the upgraded power cable), but it retailed for ~178 bucks. Would it be worth the price, probably not unless you where tweaking everything. The bottom line is "YES" they do make a difference. For those who cannot hear a difference, perhaps it is your equipment, the type of cord you are trying, or your ears. That is my $.02!

A-Audiophile

04-05-2005, 03:31 AM

Yes I once thought it was all snake oil too, so I went out and bought a Hubbell plug and a IEC connector to experiment with.....I used Romex [same house wire that leads from your circuit breaker to your outlets] sounded worse, very noticably bad. I increased the gauge of wire from that standard 16ga to a very good shieled 12ga from an electrical store...my Aragon 8008BB amp sounded much different....punchier, bigger, blacker, faster, smoother. I borrowed Kimber powerkord from the dealer, and tried other home brew cords and I can say that each one made my Aragon sound different. So yes power cords DO make a difference. BTW I replaced the hard-wired stock cord to my Adcom CD player and it smoothed it out completely.

A-Audiophile

04-05-2005, 09:24 AM

Let me see, the electric power you receive in your home has been generated many miles away. It is transmitted via copper cables for that distance which can be quite significant. It then reaches your home and traveles throughout your entire home on copper cables. After all this copper electrical transmission you are telling us that the last foot of cable makes any difference whatsoever. Amazing.

By the way, you don't happen to be shilling for a high end powercord company are you?

LOL...yes I know....and I know it sounds crazy...and thinking along those lines...using Romex would/should sound the best [since its whats coming from your circuit breaker to the outlet] BUT I tried that...yes actually taking the outlet off the wall and adding a IEC connector to the end of some Romex and physically connecting it to the Romex from the wall....in affect HAVING NO POWER CORD. And it did not sound good at all. So somehow, some length of very good copper wire does make a difference.

Just like many small streams with bends and rocks bring water to a river...the water moves along sure, but check out the speed of the water once it hits a nice unobstructed straight canal.

Hey I did not believe it myself until I started experimenting with different home made and borrowed power cords....the DO really sound different...

Beckman

04-05-2005, 11:49 AM

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html

musicoverall

04-05-2005, 12:03 PM

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html

Don't swallow your power cord to control your headaches or other physical illnesses. Hook it up to your electronic equipment! :D

Seriously, while your link is interesting, it provides no insight into the sound of power cords (if any). It's merely your belief that power cords are placebos. I'm not saying your necessarily wrong, but your link isn't proof or even evidence of placebo in this case.

E-Stat

04-05-2005, 05:18 PM

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html
So your conclusion is that aftermarket power cords have a healing effect to audiophiles? ;)

rw

Beckman

04-06-2005, 11:30 AM

So your conclusion is that aftermarket power cords have a healing effect to audiophiles? ;)

rw

Yes. In fact I have found that coating my power cord in olive oil brings more depth to the music. I turns out the dielectric constant of olive oil is very high and it prevents electron drift in the insulation. ;)

Beckman

04-06-2005, 11:31 AM

Don't swallow your power cord to control your headaches or other physical illnesses. Hook it up to your electronic equipment! :D
.

Too late!

musicoverall

04-06-2005, 12:47 PM

Yes. In fact I have found that coating my power cord in olive oil brings more depth to the music. I turns out the dielectric constant of olive oil is very high and it prevents electron drift in the insulation. ;)

More depth? Are you saying it's getting deep in here??? :D

BTW, try using dictionaries as cable elevators - you'll get a huge increase in definition!

ruadmaa

04-06-2005, 05:13 PM

I'm not aware of any double blind tests on power cords except for one that was done recently and posted on The Audio Lab... which, by the way, is where discussions of DBT belong rather than the Cable forum. That being said, why do you say the cord that comes with equipment is "just fine"? Have you tried aftermarket power cords? If not, how do you know what is fine and what isn't? If you want to argue, go ahead, but all I'm doing is asking a few questions. Care to answer or do you simply not have a valid reason for your claim?

Actually, I do care to answer, I believe this website should give a very valid reason to my claim. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

musicoverall

04-07-2005, 04:53 AM

Actually, I do care to answer, I believe this website should give a very valid reason to my claim. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

Well, actually it doesn't help your claim very much. Let's overlook the fact that the participants were testing in a room that was not their own listening environment and were using gear that was not theirs. I doubt I could tell the differences between two shades of blue if I had to use your eyeglasses. But as I said, let's overlook that for now.

Your claim is that "the cord that came with your gear is just fine". Well, now that I think about it, that's true! No doubt about it. Sound passes through it and it doesn't cause overheating so it's "just fine". But you're hinting that different power cords absolutely make no difference in sound. If I'm wrong, stop reading. If that's what you're saying, consider: You're making that claim based on a small number of participants, a small number of trials, the problems I pointed out above, and the problems the article pointed out at the end. The fact is that these people under blind conditions couldn't tell the differences between power cords under the limited and extreme conditions cited. That's all. Extrapolating that to the rest of the world under any and all conditions in all circumstances is simply too broad of a jump for me to accept. On the other hand, you may be absolutely correct in your conclusion. There's no way for me to know unless I try it first hand and even then, the most I could say is that I should be added to the (very short) list of people that have been documented to have failed a power cord blind test.

ruadmaa

04-07-2005, 05:27 AM

Well, actually it doesn't help your claim very much. Let's overlook the fact that the participants were testing in a room that was not their own listening environment and were using gear that was not theirs. I doubt I could tell the differences between two shades of blue if I had to use your eyeglasses. But as I said, let's overlook that for now.

Your claim is that "the cord that came with your gear is just fine". Well, now that I think about it, that's true! No doubt about it. Sound passes through it and it doesn't cause overheating so it's "just fine". But you're hinting that different power cords absolutely make no difference in sound. If I'm wrong, stop reading. If that's what you're saying, consider: You're making that claim based on a small number of participants, a small number of trials, the problems I pointed out above, and the problems the article pointed out at the end. The fact is that these people under blind conditions couldn't tell the differences between power cords under the limited and extreme conditions cited. That's all. Extrapolating that to the rest of the world under any and all conditions in all circumstances is simply too broad of a jump for me to accept. On the other hand, you may be absolutely correct in your conclusion. There's no way for me to know unless I try it first hand and even then, the most I could say is that I should be added to the (very short) list of people that have been documented to have failed a power cord blind test.

One other small fact that you might have overlooked. I don't know about your receiver owners manual but in the Yamaha manuals it specifically states that the power cord is not to be replaced and to use only the power cord provided. Now I wonder why they would say that. Maybe you know more than the Yamaha people regarding power cords. Perhaps their engineers are so incompetent that they don't realize that better power cords could be added to their equipment. Rubbish. Leave your power cord alone. As I have stated the power cord that comes with your equipment is just fine.

musicoverall

04-07-2005, 06:37 AM

One other small fact that you might have overlooked. I don't know about your receiver owners manual but in the Yamaha manuals it specifically states that the power cord is not to be replaced and to use only the power cord provided. Now I wonder why they would say that. Maybe you know more than the Yamaha people regarding power cords. Perhaps their engineers are so incompetent that they don't realize that better power cords could be added to their equipment. Rubbish. Leave your power cord alone. As I have stated the power cord that comes with your equipment is just fine.

No, I suspect the Yamaha people know more than I about power cords and I would further suspect that replacing the power cord on a Yamaha receiver would have absolutely no effect on the sound. But how about on a Krell amplifier? A conrad-johnson preamp? How about a Burmeister CD player? The VTL Wotans? The jump to those from a Yamaha receiver is pretty broad. Does your theory still hold?

ruadmaa

04-07-2005, 06:51 AM

No, I suspect the Yamaha people know more than I about power cords and I would further suspect that replacing the power cord on a Yamaha receiver would have absolutely no effect on the sound. But how about on a Krell amplifier? A conrad-johnson preamp? How about a Burmeister CD player? The VTL Wotans? The jump to those from a Yamaha receiver is pretty broad. Does your theory still hold?

If you are paying thousands of dollars for high end equipment and not getting the very finest powercord available, perhaps you should be looking for different high end equipment.

Resident Loser

04-07-2005, 07:20 AM

...it's a simple case of "...one hand washes the other..." quid quo pro...

The myth gets bigger as more "names" become involved...How do we know that all the brands you mention are really any better than the Yammie mass-market gear?

Word of mouth? Myth? Limited distributorship? That certain cache? Ego? Pride of ownership/oneupsmanship? Certainly not reviews!

Tube gear? A technology whose time has passed...A rarefied CD player that uses an off-the-shelf Marantz disc mechanism and has tone controls to boot(although they don't call 'em that)...and we put 'em in fancy cases, with sexy lights and parse out the dealer franchises to support that end of the myth...so yeah, the theory holds...quite well!

The whole high end deal is a crock IMO...way back when Levinson built Levinson, there were things like mil-spec parts, vernier-type controls, glass epoxy boards...you actually got some of what you paid for...now it seems as though "name" value is sufficient to slap a ridiculous pricetag on nearly everything...Now I'm not sayin' they don't use better parts, designs etc. but is the performance equal to the pricing structure or is it just so much hooey?...

So now we have speakers that are "bi-wireable", gear with a severe lack of switching functions and controls, a "powercord" market...a HT segment that has all but ruined the reasonably-priced, two-channel choices...all in the Catch-22 of "market demand"...a blizzard starts with one snowflake that builds and builds until you get a drift...

jimHJJ(... if you get my drift...)

Resident Loser

04-07-2005, 08:58 AM

...let me play Devil's advocate...sorta...the Yammie cord is probably UL/CE approved...I don't think that is true for a great many aftermarket concoctions...certainly not for the DIY type...Soooo, Yamaha is telling you straight out...don't do it...at very least you may invalidate your warranty, at worse you could cause death or destruction AND your insurer won't look too kindly at it when settlement time rolls 'round...

To recap, there are some things in "audio-mytho-hypo-land" that exist only due to manufacturing economies...IEC-connecterized components are one of them...pure and simple.

jimHJJ(...looking at things as realities...)

E-Stat

04-07-2005, 09:39 AM

I don't know about your receiver owners manual but in the Yamaha manuals it specifically states that the power cord is not to be replaced and to use only the power cord provided.Now I wonder why they would say that.
There is no mystery as they explain afterwards why.

"Otherwise it may result in causing fire or an electronic shock."

In this litgious society, that is simply a CYA for the folks out there who may use substandard or damaged cords. The ones I use or recommend are UL listed, which is kinda redundant since they use larger gauge wire and employ higher quality connectors than the cheap stuff.

Perhaps their engineers are so incompetent that they don't realize that better power cords could be added to their equipment.
Or, choice "B", they understand their primary audience. Most people don't care.

Have you ever spoken to a audio designer / manufacturer regarding cords? The answer I get from three is pretty consistent. We supply a basic cable knowing that users either already have or will choose one that works better in their system. One company, GamuT only supplies cords upon request (at no charge) for the same reason. Perhaps you might try asking audio engineers the same question instead of assuming the answer.

rw

rw

musicoverall

04-07-2005, 09:44 AM

[QUOTE=Resident Loser
now it seems as though "name" value is sufficient to slap a ridiculous pricetag on nearly everything...Now I'm not sayin' they don't use better parts, designs etc. but is the performance equal to the pricing structure or is it just so much hooey?...)[/QUOTE]

My experience, and that of others that I know personally (or at least know their experience) suggests that it's neither a good price-to-performance ratio nor so much hooey. I'll have to use some numbers that should be taken as representational.

A pre-amp/amp combination might sound 10% better than a receiver, yet cost 500% more. The tradeoff is how much one wants to spend to attain that 10% improvement. Is 500% worth it? To some people, it is.

In many cases I've found, yes - name value is sufficient to slap a ridiculously high price tag on a piece of gear. There are many, many more pieces of gear that I think are overpriced, Mark II when Mark I wasn't that good, charge what the traffic will bear, items than there are excellent sounding pieces. I won't mention names but many of the highly respected audiophile electronics manufacturers produce items that I think are no more worth their cost than a Rolex is. OTOH, Rolex's are worth the cost to some. Further, there are higher priced items that I feel are worth every penny, in subjective terms... and I'm a subjectivist (huge surprise).

How do you know if the brands I mentioned are "better" than a Yamaha receiver? Only by critical listening... at least, that's the means I use. If the glorified parts or design used don't result in better sound, then you're paying for parts and design theory. Now I have no doubt that audiophiles tend to respect certain pieces of gear due to word of mouth and advertising when they haven't listened. But I think that has at least some justification. A company that makes primarily mid-priced receivers is building to a price point, to a specific market segment. Something has to be compromised and that something is usually the sound, IME.

Anyone that is happy with their current power cord, Yamaha receiver or RCA CD player gets no flack from me until they erroneously claim that not only does nothing else sound "better", nothing else sounds "different". That's a claim, a speculation - nothing more. If so stated, I have no problem with that. The problem begins when that speculation is stated as though it were a proven fact.

musicoverall

04-07-2005, 09:50 AM

If you are paying thousands of dollars for high end equipment and not getting the very finest powercord available, perhaps you should be looking for different high end equipment.

I'm not aware of any high end company that supplies aftermarket power cords with their gear. But I am aware of high end companies that recommend that the buyer maximize their investment with an aftermarket cord. I've heard the question "why would these manufacturers ship out a component that might not be heard in its best light" i.e without a better power cord. A better question might be why would they supply a better cord which would further drive up the cost of their component to the consumer when the cord MAY OR MAY NOT make a difference? If it doesn't, why should I have to pay for the cord in order to get the component? From what I've read, the power cord's "sonic signature" might very well have more to do with what's already in someone's home rather than anything to do with the specific component. Why be forced to buy the power cord when you might not need it?

ruadmaa

04-07-2005, 10:02 AM

There is no mystery as they explain afterwards why.

"Otherwise it may result in causing fire or an electronic shock."

In this litgious society, that is simply a CYA for the folks out there who may use substandard or damaged cords. The ones I use or recommend are UL listed, which is kinda redundant since they use larger gauge wire and employ higher quality connectors than the cheap stuff.

Or, choice "B", they understand their primary audience. Most people don't care.

Have you ever spoken to a audio designer / manufacturer regarding cords? The answer I get from three is pretty consistent. We supply a basic cable knowing that users either already have or will choose one that works better in their system. One company, GamuT only supplies cords upon request (at no charge) for the same reason. Perhaps you might try asking audio engineers the same question instead of assuming the answer.

rw

rw

You forgot to add choice C Mr. Super Moderator: Perhaps there can be no improvement in equipment performance by adding an aftermarket power cord.