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hmmmm
03-09-2005, 05:51 PM
I'm just curious to know some good "do it yourself sub" projects for a beginner (me) I currently have a Hsu Vtf-2 and I love it but I'm almost finished constructing my Home Theater and am looking for more projects to do. I don't care if it is a kit but would love a tube if possible to fit behind a curtain that runs along the front of the room. My room is 14' X 23." I'd really like to build a tower speaker but I don't want to get over my head. Again, I've never done anything like this but have always wanted to build one. Any advice you can give would be appreciated. Thanks!

kexodusc
03-10-2005, 06:56 AM
I'm just curious to know some good "do it yourself sub" projects for a beginner (me) I currently have a Hsu Vtf-2 and I love it but I'm almost finished constructing my Home Theater and am looking for more projects to do. I don't care if it is a kit but would love a tube if possible to fit behind a curtain that runs along the front of the room. My room is 14' X 23." I'd really like to build a tower speaker but I don't want to get over my head. Again, I've never done anything like this but have always wanted to build one. Any advice you can give would be appreciated. Thanks!

Hmmm, we might have something right up your alley:
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/RT3/rt3.htm

I haven't heard this sub personally, but Wayne J's designs are always top notch, he's a guru to many in the DIY world.

As for inexpensive sub options...well, we'd kind of need to know your budget. I use to have a VTF-2, I liked it too. But you can do much better going the DIY route with a bit of patience, and time.

Subs are the easiest DIY projects usually.

A good tower shouldn't be too hard either, it's just bigger. Though I'd ask, if you end up with a good sub, why the need for a tower? To me that adds a bunch of expense, and not necessarily any performance.

Have you built any speakers before?

hmmmm
03-10-2005, 05:32 PM
I haven't tried to build a speaker yet. I own a lot of wood working tools but have no experience at all with this kind of project. I do have time on my hands though and several credit cards:) Really though, as far as a budget, $500.00 or less and I already have the glue! Thanks for the help.

kexodusc
03-11-2005, 04:28 AM
Next question...how ambitious are you.
You can do anything from buying a pre-assembled kit (most expensive), assemble a kit, or start from scratch, make your own box, cut out the holes and connect everything.

You will need to access a plunge router, and hopefully you have a drill and an orbital sander or belt sander or something. Can you solder? (yes you can it's easy, but you might need a soldering iron).

Next you will have to let us know, is this sub used mostly for music, home theater, or a good mix of both? How loud do you want this to go? Do you want volume and low, low subsonic bass at the expense of sound quality (ie: great for HT, less so for music). Finally, how big (or small) do you want this unit to be?

If size doesn't matter, I'd recommend a 15" sealed subwoofer...and I've got a few ideas...I'm pretty sure we can get you something in the $250-$400 range that will be a big step up on what you have now, and leave you some cash left over for buying any tools you might need...

hmmmm
03-11-2005, 06:50 AM
I would prefer to build the box myself because I have the table saws etc... Would like to try to veneer it also.

"You will need to access a plunge router, and hopefully you have a drill and an orbital sander or belt sander or something. Can you solder? (yes you can it's easy, but you might need a soldering iron)."

I have the router but not the sanders (can get one). And I've never soldered but am willing to learn.

Next you will have to let us know, is this sub used mostly for music, home theater, or a good mix of both? How loud do you want this to go? Do you want volume and low, low subsonic bass at the expense of sound quality (ie: great for HT, less so for music). Finally, how big (or small) do you want this unit to be?

I would say 50/50 for music and movies. I'm a freak when it comes to sound quality on music and listen to a lot of SACD's, DVD-A etc... I also watch and host movie parties frequently. Quality of sound is much more important to me than "subsonic" however, I love the "feel" of those low frequencies. I would say at least 25hz like my Hsu -even though my slp meter picks it up at 20hz.

If size doesn't matter, I'd recommend a 15" sealed subwoofer...and I've got a few ideas...I'm pretty sure we can get you something in the $250-$400 range that will be a big step up on what you have now, and leave you some cash left over for buying any tools you might need...[/QUOTE]
I probably have the room for the 15" ...but I don't want anything huge. It could be larger than my Hsu however. I have a medium sized room that can be completely closed off with doors etc...

My next question is "what does sealed verse ported do for me?"
I have a CSW MC500 center channel which is sealed and two MC60's which are ported. The smaller ported speakers actually go lower and are half the size. Is the sealed more acurate? The center channel was twice as much as the two bookshelf speakers.

kexodusc
03-11-2005, 07:24 AM
For speakers, there's more complications to the sealed vs. ported pros and cons.

For subs, a 15" sealed will provide superior sound quality, but for a given size box will have lower max SPL and a reduced frequency extension. No matter. I know of a a 15" sealed sub can easily get you to 20 Hz with SPL in the 110 dB for about $300. (mayber more SPL, just being conservative).

You can play a bit with box dimensions, but think roughly 20 cubic inches...you can adjust dimensions by increasing others to make it fit...a bit of play.

There's a ton of options, this is just one really popular design I'm thinking of...very inexpensive, but it requires the large cabinet.

hmmmm
03-11-2005, 11:24 AM
about 20" would be fine for a sealed subwoofer. What are you thinking...

kexodusc
03-11-2005, 12:11 PM
First you need to pick your woofer. There's three 15" that I like, but my favorite is actually the cheapest one (lowest xmax and therefore the best sound quality in my opinion.) It won't be the loudest, but it will still be loud, the Dayton Quatro 15" woofer - about $86.
Because it's really efficient, you can get by with either the 240 watt or 250 watt (without bass boost) amps from parts express.
I'd recommend waiting for the 240 watt amp, it has soft clipping circuitry that will protect the woofer from bottoming out etc if you ever get close to maxing out the sub. If you don't crank the volume to sick levels though, the 250 watt is fine, just be careful, and don't turn the volume up all the way.
The 250 watt amp is good in it's own right with the built in rumble filter that eliminates wasting power on frequencies outside the woofers ability. Factor $120 -$140 for the amp.

Add another $5-$10 for stuffing, then your glue, MDF, and whatever veneer or vinyl wrap you decide to use.

Build this in an approximately 3.5 cubic ft cabinet (internal volume). I have a sub on the go with the external dimensions 19.5" X 19.5" X 22" (W,H,D) which oversizes this a bit to account for the woofer and amp displacement. Use 0.75" MDF with a 1.5" front baffle (2 slabs glued). This will also need an internal brace. I'd use a plunge router to cut out a hole the same size as the driver cutout and make the brace 18" X 18" (internal W X H). You can use an H brace or something too though.
This gets you pretty handy to 3.5 cu ft, then stuff the box with some acousta-stuff or polyfill...experiment with how much, but you'll probably just line the sides...

You can pretty much swap in the 15" DVC sub, the Adire Tempest, or a few other 15" models, but the Quatro has all the sound quality these have and more than enough SPL for most.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&SO=2&&DID=7&CATID=43&ObjectGroup_ID=505

and
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=295-560&DID=7

240 or 250 watts is more than enough, don't be worried about that.

For advice from people far more knowledgeable than me, you can visit the parts express forums...that's were a good chunk of the above info came from.

You might want to flag "poneal" (Paul O'Neal), a regular here who's built one of these and loves it.
Here's his page with pics.
http://home.stx.rr.com/poneal/pages/quattro15.html

poneal
03-11-2005, 01:02 PM
This inexpensive subwoofer delivers the goods. Mate it with the 240watt plate amp with the soft clipping and 24db octave in a sealed box and your in bass heaven. Seriously this is a really good sub and amp and beats the pants of many 3x more expensive drivers. For the design I created here is a link. Once on the site just click the 15" Quattro project.

http://home.stx.rr.com/poneal/index.html?Location=Speakers&Page=Speakers

Have fun and enjoy. Everything you need to know is there.

hmmmm
03-12-2005, 09:35 AM
This inexpensive subwoofer delivers the goods. Mate it with the 240watt plate amp with the soft clipping and 24db octave in a sealed box and your in bass heaven. Seriously this is a really good sub and amp and beats the pants of many 3x more expensive drivers. For the design I created here is a link. Once on the site just click the 15" Quattro project.

http://home.stx.rr.com/poneal/index.html?Location=Speakers&Page=Speakers

Have fun and enjoy. Everything you need to know is there.

This looks like a great project for me. Poneal, your sub looks great! Kexodusc and your dimensions look like they vary a bit and Kexodusc has a double thick front panel? I just read over things quickly but will print out all of the directions and I'm sure I'll come up with a lot of questions. I'll check out parts express's forums.
Thanks so much for everything.

kexodusc
03-12-2005, 09:48 AM
Hmmm: The difference in dimensions doesn't matter so much as the final internal volume (which also has a lot of flexibility). The double thick front panel isn't absolutely necessary, but MDF is cheap. There's a lot of force when that woofer is moving...it might not be necessary except at louder volumes, but it certainly won't hurt to have the thicker front baffle...and it would absorb more cabinet resonance.
If you can find 1" thick MDF all the way around, that would be another option as well. Just as long as the cabinet is built sturdy and sealed well.
If you have dado blades for a table saw, I'd recommend doing a mortis and tennon or rabbet joint...use alot of glue, and then silicone seal every crack. I even go sor far as to use auto body-fill (Bondo) on the exterior to get a smooth seam, and further seal a cabinet. You could use drywall compound. This might be overkill though, but the less leakage, the better.

You're gonna have a ton of fun.

hmmmm
03-12-2005, 09:11 PM
I'm heading to Lowe's tomorrow!

hmmmm
03-12-2005, 09:14 PM
Could I biscuit join this if I use a lot of glue?

hmmmm
03-14-2005, 06:06 AM
Tech support at Parts express recommended that I actually get the 250 watt with the bass boost because of a 6 decibal drop at the lower frequency instead of the 240. Any comments? I'm going to place an order later today.

kexodusc
03-14-2005, 06:12 AM
Really, I'm surprised? Most of the comments on the PE forum favor the 240 watt amp, then the 250 watt amp WITHOUT boost, then the 250 watt amp with boost.
Up to you really. I know they'd love to move the 250 watt amps with bass boost as they're currently out of stock of the 240 watt amps.

I forgot to mention this to you earlier, but I would also add a Behringer Feedback Destroyer to your sub purchase for Parametric EQ. To me this is essential to get a flat sub response in your room...most rooms give a +/- of 12 dB or more. The BFD will counter that. If you decide to add a BFD now, or in the future, the bass boost becomes useless to you.

I'd post a question at the Tech Talk board, ask them for opinions, tell them what the Tech support told you. In the end, I think you can get excellent results with any of the 3. The subtle differences will really only matter if you max out the amps power capacity, or don't use Parametric Eq'ing as described above.
I'm looking at ordering another one now, and I'm leaning towards the 250 amp without boost because it's available...but I might wait for the 240 watt amp.

bcass
03-14-2005, 08:01 AM
Thanks for all the information here, guys! I'm planning on building a sub too and you have it all laid out. :-)

One thing I wondered about though -- what is the difference with a down-firing sub? Is the sound any better/worse? That would eliminate the need for a grill too, so I was leaning toward that design.

hmmmm
03-14-2005, 02:40 PM
I'm in a hurry but wanted to get back to you. I called back and talked a bit more to another tech and he said he'd probably go with the 240 but I'd have to wait a few weeks.
Thanks.

hmmmm
03-15-2005, 04:30 AM
Well, I ordered the 240 watt amp along with everything else last night. I also built the box but didn't glue or cut any holes. The tech guy gave me the hole cutout sizes but said not to cut them before they arrive. This is a lot of fun!

kexodusc
03-15-2005, 04:49 AM
I'm glad you held out for the 240 watt amp. The 15" Quatro is a excellent sounding woofer with a low x-max (which I believe is why it sounds better)...what it gives up over more expensive 15" units is sheer brute power and output ability...you'd pay an extra $100 or $200 just achieve a 3 or 6 dB increase before maxing out. In all honesty, a 110 dB capable sub (such as the Quatro) is plenty for most, and if it's not, you'd be better off to add a 2nd sub IMO. (with room gain, though I can't imagine unless you are a huge bass head).
The 240 watt amp will prevent your sub from clipping and bottoming out etc should you ever feel the need to push it near its limits...nice feature...
Is it back in stock?

hmmmm
03-15-2005, 05:54 AM
It won't be back in stock for 3 more weeks and they will fill backorders first. I'm assuming the amp will be centered in the back panel. I checked out the dado blades and didn't want to dish out the money, but the biscuit joiner worked great and it only took me about 5 minutes.
I'm going to go ahead and cut the hole for the amp. It looks like it has a pretty good overhang, unlike the speaker. I'll have the speaker on Thursday...

bcass
03-15-2005, 05:59 AM
Are you going to mount the speaker on the bottom or on the side? I'm thinking a downfiring sub would be better.

kexodusc
03-15-2005, 06:09 AM
Hmmm, I've just placed my backorder too. Dado's aren't necessary, and yeah, if you don't already have them or won't use them a bunch, don't bother.
You might want to wait for the amp to come in before cutting, sometimes the dimensions are inaccurate, or change in production runs a bit...been there, done that...it won't take long once the amp arrives to cut it then, and at least it'll be done right.

bcass: There's no real advantage to a downfiring sub, and infact, with gravity working against the woofer motor, there can be more disadvantages (quicker wear, more power requirement, diminished response and accuracy). I'm not against downfiring subs, and I'm not sure the disadvantages always translate into real world performance loss all the time, but for simplicity, unless you've got a good reason for a downfiring sub, I wouldn't bother.
It makes for a fun project though, if just to be different.

hmmmm
03-15-2005, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE=kexodusc]Hmmm, I've just placed my backorder too. Dado's aren't necessary, and yeah, if you don't already have them or won't use them a bunch, don't bother.
You might want to wait for the amp to come in before cutting, sometimes the dimensions are inaccurate, or change in production runs a bit...been there, done that...it won't take long once the amp arrives to cut it then, and at least it'll be done right.

I'll wait to cut. I'm just excited and impatient I guess. For the internal brace...do you place it in the center of the box? I'll go ahead and use the router to make the brace also.

kexodusc
03-15-2005, 11:41 AM
Uh yeah, centered is fine...You're going to cut out a 15" hole in a big square piece of MDF remember, so there's lots room for the driver's back and the amp to go through. I'm told it helps cut down on internal standing waves a bit as well, and if nothing else, probably allows for holding the polyfill up a bit better.

Do you have a veneer picked out?

hmmmm
03-15-2005, 12:17 PM
I haven't picked out a venner yet but I did look. I'm an artist by trade, so I'm debating on possibly painting it a rich red color and doing something funky with the grill or something else to make it look more unique. I have a custom framing shop and am designing all of the time so I always like to come up with unique approaches as long as it doesn't affect performance.
I was curious if building two identicle subs in a 14 x 23 room would make much of a difference. I've heard different opinions about whether it's worth it. My wife might kill me anyway if I do...

kexodusc
03-15-2005, 01:47 PM
Building a 2nd sub would offer improvments. Mainly, your bass response would be much more full throughout the room (as nodes are circumvented a bit)...your output would also increase by about 3 dB (or more depending on which theory you use).
For sound quality, I would build 2 Quatro's over one $450 sub like the Titanic MKIII. But that's just me.
Your room isn't terribly huge, so I would first wait and see if the Quatro is strained before deciding to pull the trigger on another (unless you're bored or want more bass, bwa ha ha)..Instead, I can't recommend enough that you consider buying a Parametric Equalizer...the Behringer Feedback Destroyer is only $99 at Parts Express right now...tack it onto your order...this will make a huge night and day difference.
Consider this...nobody would buy a speaker with a frequency response measured outside +/- 3 dB. Why would allow a response of +/-12 dB for your subwoofer? The BFD will tighten that up, and yield more sound improvement than another sub.
After a Parametric Eq, if you need more output, then make your 2nd unit...

As for painting, there's many people that do so, but my understanding is it requires alot of elbow grease to sand, etc...more so than staining, so I've never gone that route.
Lots of people turn their subs into coffee tables/end tables, to make them more "room friendly"....

hmmmm
03-15-2005, 04:49 PM
Kexodusc, you've spent a lot of time helping me out with this. I really appreciate it.

kexodusc
03-15-2005, 05:08 PM
Kexodusc, you've spent a lot of time helping me out with this. I really appreciate it.
Not nearly as much as others have spent on me...I've only been at this for a little over a year now. That's what I love about the DIY community to most...some audiophiles get carried away with out-doing the other guy, buying high-priced gear...being typical elitist snobs...the DIY community is almost the opposite, very generous and patient with newbies.

Besides, I needed a guinea pig for the 15" Quatro...(just kidding).
You should really visit the Tech Talk forum at the Parts Express website, I'm still very much a newbie compared to some of the guys there...check out some of the amazing projects these guys have done. You'll never buy a speaker again.

hmmmm
03-16-2005, 05:16 PM
what type of grill covers are you guys using?

kexodusc
03-16-2005, 05:56 PM
For a sub you've got a lot of options..plastic or metal "cage style" grills, etc...I prefer the black grill fabric look. $7 gave me enough fabric for 14 bookshelf speakers, and 2 subs.
Some people use black nylon pantyhose doubled over, claiming it's less expensive and more acoustically transparent than grill fabric, but I don't buy it...
Bass signals don't really suffer much from a grill.
Build a 1" to 1.5" thich grill frame (maybe .75, but make sure the woofer has enough clearance so it doesn't touch fabric or get punctured if some kid bumps into the grill), same size as the front baffle (or smaller/larger for looks) and drill some holes in the front baffle for the grill peg kits.
I used rare-earth magnets for a "clean look" on my bookshelfs. They're counter sunk into both the MDF baffle and 1/2" grill frame, covered in veneer so no plastic holes or pegs showed, so I'll probably do the same for the sub...that grill frame will be heavy though, probably needs 8 magnets at least.
I router the edges of the grill so it's contoured back a bit...you can round them or whatever you want...adds a nice touch...


Did you have anything fancy in mind?

bcass
03-17-2005, 07:33 AM
Kexo (do you have a real first name? :-), do you know where to get the grill pegs? Where to get the grill cloth? Also, what is a parametric equalizer, and can it help me grow better tomatoes this year? :-)

kexodusc
03-17-2005, 08:21 AM
Kexo (do you have a real first name? :-)

What do you mean?


do you know where to get the grill pegs? Where to get the grill cloth? Also, what is a parametric equalizer, and can it help me grow better tomatoes this year? :-)

Yes. Yes. An essential tool for any system with a subwoofer. Maybe.

Okay, I'll elaborate:

Grill hardware:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&SO=2&&DID=7&CATID=48&ObjectGroup_ID=141

Cloth:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&SO=2&&DID=7&CATID=48&ObjectGroup_ID=140

A parametric EQ is hard to explain. In any given room, the dimensions and room acoustics will cause certain frequencies to become "amplified" (louder) or diminished...I won't get into why here, just trust me when I say that after you set the level or volume on your sub to match your system, you can bet you're only hearing some of the bass you should be hearing, and too much of the bass you are hearing.
The picture attached shows the difference between a system with a PEQ and one without...the pink one is much better. It slopes downward because the sub is being blended with the speakers, which will bring the total response back up so it's ruler flat (in theory).
A P EQ lets you "equalize" the bass by adjusting how much signal is sent at certain frequencies. the result is that your bass response is much more flat and even. It sounds fuller, and more real.
IMO, a $100 PEQ is better than adding another sub, or upgrading to higher quality sub that will have the response issues.
With a parametric EQ like the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD for short), you use an SPL meter ($40 radio shack unit is good) to measure the bass response in your room and adjust it.
Once you add a BFD to your system, you'll wonder how you did without it...

For a better, and much longer explanation, go here:
http://www.snapbug.ws/bfd.htm

For $100, you shouldn't think twice about it.

You wouldn't buy a pair of speakers with a frequency response greater than +/- 3dB, I don't know why people allow a subwoofer to have 8 times that. I didn't even know these things existed until a year ago, and I've just ordered mine (waiting for Parts Express to receive some back-orders on other items before shipping). I've heard the huge improvement these things make.

I hope this makes some sense...Woochifer and Sir Terrence could answer more for you in the HT forum, or do a search...these have been discussed alot recently.

bcass
03-17-2005, 10:34 AM
Thank you. I mean my name is Bryan, what's yours?

OK, so I have the Radio Shack SPL meter already. Is this equalizer something that goes inline with the sub's input, or... inside the sub connected to the crossover or amp, or... ? It sounds like a reasonable thing to do, and something that I've tried to do before with my equalizer. But the equalizer I have connects into the system via the tape monitor circuit, and it adds in additional noise to the receiver.

kexodusc
03-17-2005, 12:24 PM
Thank you. I mean my name is Bryan, what's yours?
My name IS Kexodusc...it's Greek... :D
Actually, it's Ken...but don't tell anyone.



OK, so I have the Radio Shack SPL meter already. Is this equalizer something that goes inline with the sub's input, or... inside the sub connected to the crossover or amp, or... ? It sounds like a reasonable thing to do, and something that I've tried to do before with my equalizer. But the equalizer I have connects into the system via the tape monitor circuit, and it adds in additional noise to the receiver.

Yes, you hook the BFD up in between the receiver and sub...then adjust the frequency bands as required...
Since you'll need access to all the buttons and switches (this thing is the size of a cd player, and ugly silver and black in colour) putting it inside the sub wouldn't be recommended, though I suppose if you're really creative you could...I'm just gonna try to stuff mine in my A/V rack and make it look as pretty as possible.

Theoretically there is some noise added to the signal, however, we're talking frequencies below 100Hz, so this small noise is not substantial or audible to the human ear...(long physics explanation required for why, let's not go there). Subs typically get away with 2% or even 10% distortion, your ears are less sensitive to subtle nuances of bass frequencies...the minute amount of noise added to the sub's signal is not heard in this case. If you used it to EQ the midrange or high frequencies, it could be a problem.

The funny thing is, the BFD wasn't made for P EQ'ing subs, it's actually a pro-audio peice of gear that has a P EQ in it. HT buffs recognized that for LFE effects, where the added noise would be effectively zero (just trust me on this) that the BFD is a phenomenal value at $100. Most other dedicated parametric EQ's are $200-$300, and don't do anything better than the BFD (which can actually be used to P EQ 2 different subs at the same time).
We all think Behringer realizes this, since they've recently announced they are discontinuing the current 1124P model (which is $100 at Parts Express right now) and are replacing it soon with another model that will be much more expensive (and not do anything better as far as Parametric EQ'ing is concerned).
In other words...snarff up that BFD now while it's cheap!!!

Then spend a few hours reading that website above, then spend a few hours calibrating...then thank me later. :D

hmmmm
03-17-2005, 12:58 PM
Did you have anything fancy in mind?[/QUOTE]

I tried several different shapes on the front and decided I like the following, simple design.
I'm going to have the top and bottom flat and flush against the edge, and the sides will be slightly rounded. Basically, if you took a long and narrow oval and cut off the top and bottom. It will come in about 1/2" on the sides. I'll use the router to round the edges.
I received my subwoofer today and now I'm getting excited. Too bad it cut my finger when I took it out of the box!

bcass
03-17-2005, 01:55 PM
Thanks Ken. It looks like the BFD is plentiful on eBay and sells for around $50-$75. So I wouldn't worry (yet) about it going away.

Still, one would think that an EQ on the *whole* spectrum would be beneficial, not just on the bass. So why wouldn't you consider an equalizer for all of the output?

kexodusc
03-18-2005, 04:36 AM
Did you have anything fancy in mind?

I tried several different shapes on the front and decided I like the following, simple design.
I'm going to have the top and bottom flat and flush against the edge, and the sides will be slightly rounded. Basically, if you took a long and narrow oval and cut off the top and bottom. It will come in about 1/2" on the sides. I'll use the router to round the edges.
I received my subwoofer today and now I'm getting excited. Too bad it cut my finger when I took it out of the box![/QUOTE]
Yeah, you've got to watch those stamped frames, a little jagged...you're about 40th person I've heard who has been "bitten" by the Dayton Quatro. :D

A word of caution about the grills...I've made 2 different fancy grills now, and a month later both times ended up hating them, and went to something else.
It looks different when it's actually on the sub/speaker, with cloth on it and with the sub finished, than in concept or when looking at it as raw mdf. The good news is MDF and cloth are cheap!
I've actually done something similar to your long oval with flat tops and bottoms for my speakers...
If you scroll to post # 6 in the link below, you'll see pics of one of the grills that looked good on paper but just drove me nuts when it was done...I've since changed it to rounded tops and bottoms.
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=77031#post77031

kexodusc
03-18-2005, 04:48 AM
Thanks Ken. It looks like the BFD is plentiful on eBay and sells for around $50-$75. So I wouldn't worry (yet) about it going away.

Still, one would think that an EQ on the *whole* spectrum would be beneficial, not just on the bass. So why wouldn't you consider an equalizer for all of the output?

Bcass: Just make sure you're not looking at the wrong gear...make sure it's the DSP-1100P (old model) or the DSP-1124P (newer model, being discontinued)...there's lots of "feedback destroyers" that don't include the parametric EQ. A friend of mine jumped on a Behringer Shark "Destroy Feedback" unit, but that doesn't have the P EQ in it, it's a different beast altogether.
You don't care about their ability to suck out feedback unless you're playing live gigs and have way too much crosstalk or something...and we can talk about that if you want - I'd recommend Yamaha over Behringer at these price points - but that's totally different :D

Most of the BFD's I've seen go from $60 to no higher than $99 on ebay, plus shipping (sometimes free shipping)...not a bad deal. I wouldn't buy a $99 one on ebay when you can get it from PE who is authorized to sell Behringer (which means valid warranty), but for $80 or something go ahead.
Don't be afraid to get the old 1100P model, they both do the same thing as far as P EQing goes, other features we don't need were upgraded.

bcass
03-18-2005, 06:01 AM
OK, but what about my question about equalizing the whole spectrum instead of just the bass end?

kexodusc
03-18-2005, 06:50 AM
Sorry, quit reading the rest of your earlier post and forgot to go back.

I'm not opposed to eq'ing everything if needed, it's a good idea...but it's gonna be tricky, and expensive.

I'll point out, however, that once you leave the lower bass region, room acoustics have less impact in terms of boosting or diminishing the loudness of frequencies.
So in many systems, an EQ is not needed, or provides a less of an improvement than in the bass region (though some people are quit fussy and particular about their sound). My Yamaha receiver has a built in Parametric EQ, but like most Parametric EQ's, it doesn't handle the sub 120 Hz bass frequencies at all, which are the ones that get the most out of hand and are the hardest to fix. I find it makes just a small, subtle improvement over not using it at all (it'd be different if I had mixed speaker types but I have 6 identical bookshelfs and a matching center)...

If you look at the graph above, the x-axis is frequency, and it stops at 160...what you'd see is that the peaks and dips are getting smaller as the frequency gets higher, eventually around 500 Hz or so the ups and downs are probably within +/- 3dB. On good speakers, the they might be reasonably flat to 200 Hz or so...frequency wavelenghts are getting smaller, and are interacting with the room "less". Basically, an EQ at this point is just changing a subtle tonality of the system, not fixing major problems.
The problem with a regular Equalizer is that it's bands are fixed, you're stuck with 60 Hz, 1000 Hz, or whatever to adjust, and your stuck with how wide a range of frequencies moving those numbers affects...with a Parametric EQ, you can adjust the filters to whatever frequencies you need need, and make the bands as narrow or wide as necessary (to a certain point)...much more useful.

You could buy a $400 to do the bass frequencies, or a $600 P EQ to do the whole system, but I'd argue your getting 90% of the performance improvement in the first $100 from the BFD.

Looking to the future, it seems built in Parametric EQ's will be a standard or at least affordable option on receivers (my RX-V1400 was only $600 with YPAO). These will handle the midrange and highs...an outboard parametric equalizer is needed for the low frequencies (except on very high-end receivers, but why pay $1000's for something the BFD will do for $100?). So your next receiver (if your current one doesn't already have one) is likely to have a parametric eq for the rest of the spectrum anyway.

Also, keep in mind that the frequency scale of music (and all sound) isn't linear but logarithmic. The range between 20 and 80 Hz alone is like 20-25% of musical information...you wouldn't think it because it's only a 60Hz difference, but in terms of wavelengths, that 60 Hz difference is actually bigger than the difference between say 500Hz and 2000 Hz, or 4000Hz and 20,000 Hz...so you really are eq'ing a HUGE part of the entire spectrum...and the rest you don't need too worry about so much.
Long story short, you're not worried so much about fixing a peak of +4 dB at 3000 Hz and a dip of -5dB at 14000Hz, you're more worried about the +14's and -10's that shake the whole house, either overpowering the other frequencies, or forcing you to turn the volume down and miss out on a lot of the bass.

Finally, I'd argue that if you've got a problem above the bass region in your system that needs EQ'ing, I'd argue you'd be further ahead (and probably save money) to replace the problem piece (speakers, amp, whatever) than to add an external equilizer. You see them used less and less in the digital age where media is wideband and most gear is up to the task.

Hope this made some sense.

hmmmm
03-18-2005, 01:24 PM
Looking to the future, it seems built in Parametric EQ's will be a standard or at least affordable option on receivers (my RX-V1400 was only $600 with YPAO). These will handle the midrange and highs...an outboard parametric equalizer is needed for the low frequencies (except on very high-end receivers, but why pay $1000's for something the BFD will do for $100?). So your next receiver (if your current one doesn't already have one) is likely to have a parametric eq for the rest of the spectrum anyway.
I have the same receiver with YPAO. I thought it covered the entire frequency. Thanks for the info.

kexodusc
03-18-2005, 01:58 PM
I thought YPAO and similar offerings did too...in fact that was my biggest reason for springing for it...then I found out the bass region is pretty much left out. Oh well...love the receiver.

bcass
03-21-2005, 07:02 AM
Thanks Ken, that does help a lot -- and even makes sense to boot! :-) The sub project will follow the main DIY speakers project, which isn't on the project schedule as of yet. We had a new house built 1 1/2 years ago and are still shelling out money for landscaping and now finishing the basement. Yikes! But maybe by summer I'll have the funds and time to do a good sound system for my home office.

poneal
03-21-2005, 07:29 AM
You do not have to get fancy with the hole. I used a jigsaw and compass to cut and measure the hole. The Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 15-1/8", Cutout Diameter: 13-7/8", Mounting Depth: 6-5/8". I centered mine and don't bother with flush mounting. With lower frequencies it's not needed. Also buy one of these, they work great and I think they look nice: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-430

Also, if you have a router and circle jig all you need is a straight two flute 1/4" bit or a 1/4" spiral upcut bit. Just make sure to align the jig right and do a test run to make sure you have it setup right.

Yes, the Quattro is a nice subwoofer. It has a high SPL, easier to drive, and lower XMAX which I prefer. Glad your enjoying the hobby. Here is my home page in case you want to make some speakers some day. IMO that the best sounding ones so far (my opinion of course) the the Audax 5.25" and MDT20 combo. I have this in my bedroom/computer room with an 8" sub and 50 watt plate amp and it rocks the room. Of course the bedroom is a lot smaller space to fill with sound than a living room.

I'm currently working on a RS150S-8 design. These are Dayton's new low distortion aluminum cone drivers. Heres the main page link:

http://home.stx.rr.com/poneal/

hmmmm
03-21-2005, 08:25 AM
Well, I finally got the time to glue the box together and start the sanding process. So far everything has gone as smooth as butter. My wife complained that she couldn't see out the car windows because of the sawdust. I forgot to pull it out of the garage.
I'm waiting for the fabric to come in but was wondering if you spray the front of the grill and back and just wrap it around. (with 3m 777 spray)
Also, I'd like to build some 2 way speakers next and wanted to know if it is possible to match the sound with speakers I already have for the center channel etc... I'm happy with my MC500 from CSW and the surrounds and don't feel like conquering an entire surround sound system.

kexodusc
03-21-2005, 08:36 AM
It can get pretty tricky to build mains that are voiced to match your center channel...I'd recommend building 3 of the same speaker if you're getting into home theater or look at some existing designs.
You could sell your speakers to finance your DIY upgrade (that's what I did, got better sound and made extra money to boot!). With surrounds, it doesn't matter as much for movies as for multi-channel audio.
In the end though, you can compromise and build better main speakers which you'll love for music, and just have mismatch for home theater (which isn't really as bad as you'd think...just a bit annoying at times).
Do the upgrades in stages, a pair at a time or something.

I just used the 3m spray, sprayed the back of the grill frame, then stuck the cloth to it rather than spraying the cloth...you could do the front too, but it might make mess and look a bit funny...the stuff is pretty tacky, and holds no problem. Then I used scissors and utility knife to trim the excess fabric down. Actually, the grills were the toughest part of all the speakers I've done.

squeegy200
03-27-2005, 06:23 AM
Lots of good information here.

I built mine after doing some reading. I learned a lot of different approaches and techniques from various websites on the net. The beauty of it was that I could buy the parts and build a design. Then I could test it out in my environment before finishing. If I didn't like it, reengineer the dimensions, ports or build an entirely different design without much loss in anything more than some material.

This website was very helpful
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/projects/

kexodusc
03-29-2005, 06:18 AM
Just a note...the diysubwoofers.org site is the best, subwoofer only site I've found...it should be favorite link for everyone building a sub!!!

MomurdA
03-30-2005, 08:29 AM
And was wondering if I could substitute a 12 or 10 inch sub for thie 15, and keep the same dimensions for the box. I cant use a 15 inch cuz i live in an apartment. I really dont know about acoustics, but it seems to me that with a smaller sub in a large box like that it would make deeper bass than in a smaller box. Is this correct?

kexodusc
03-30-2005, 11:56 AM
And was wondering if I could substitute a 12 or 10 inch sub for thie 15, and keep the same dimensions for the box. I cant use a 15 inch cuz i live in an apartment. I really dont know about acoustics, but it seems to me that with a smaller sub in a large box like that it would make deeper bass than in a smaller box. Is this correct?

MomurdA: It's unlikely a 12" or 10" sub would work in such a big cabinet properly, so you'd have to shrink it down some. Too big a cabinet is bad for a sub as well, there' s a point where the bass extension is sacrificed for distortion and output...

But not to worry, easiest thing to do is find a 10" or 12" woofer you like (I recommend the DVC line at Parts Express, the Adire Shiva, or an Atlas Audio woofer for starters) and then come back here or go to the Tech Talk forums at PE and ask about cabinet sizes...if you can find and download UniBox or some software you can do it yourself if you understand T/S parameters, otherwise I'm sure someone would be happy to help you out.
In many cases there's already some cabinet ideas on these websites that work well.

Or check out some of the links here for ideas...Personally, I'd go with a 12" sub over a 10"...just do it and thank yourself later...

hmmmm
03-30-2005, 03:52 PM
[QUOTE=kexodusc]MomurdA: It's unlikely a 12" or 10" sub would work in such a big cabinet properly, so you'd have to shrink it down some. Too big a cabinet is bad for a sub as well, there' s a point where the bass extension is sacrificed for distortion and output...

Well, I'm almost finished with the sub. I just need that amp and I'll put on the finishing touches. Where is the best place to see photos of a lot of diy speakers (if it exists) I've seen the ones at PE.
Thanks

kexodusc
03-31-2005, 04:30 AM
For pics, look no further than:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23208

This is an excellent site by the way...other than that you'll have to head to the PE tech talk forum and try to find a thread with some weblinks...a bunch of guys have their personal web pages full of DIY projects...I just don't have them linked.

I'm waiting for the amp too...Should be in tomorrow, but I'm not holding my breath...when it does return to stock, I'll probably have 2 weeks of waiting to do...

Been working on installing new flooring in my basement HT room anyway, so that's kept me busy.

hmmmm
04-01-2005, 08:05 AM
Well, the sub was looking awesome...I had a nice plate glass top made and with the front being black and the rest of the box a fire red, it was looking pretty sweet. I carried it down stairs and set it in front of our home theater curtain and it clashed so bad that my wife said "NO WAY!". The paint originally looked like it would work great but I guess the color looks different when used on a larger area. I had about 6 cans of red on that thing. So up to the garage again and now it's all black. A fly had to land in the first coat of course.
It's still nice looking but not as "cool".
Also I wanted to start looking for a 6.1 DIY system to start in a few months or so. I would like to make nice towers- something unique. I saw some pyramid-like towers on the PE site and thought they were really nice looking and they didn't take up much floor space. I want something high quality of course. I have speaker building 201 and started reading it but wasn't thrilled with the one system they had. Any suggestions? I'd probably start out like you said Kexo and build the front three first.

kexodusc
04-01-2005, 11:16 AM
www.speakerbuilder.net

This site has a lot of good inexpensive projects.
The Project Showcase at Parts Express has a few as well, but they become more complex and not necessarily any better

I love the Ar.com DIY's, by Ed Frias that you can find right here at this site...click "Learn" in the blue bar at the top of the page and then follow the links...
You could turn those into towers very easily by basically building a "false bottom", and filling it with foam or something...Great sound, easy to build, and if you make them towers, you don't need stands. You could make a bookshelf sized speaker for the center channel, or eventually make your own center channel...most people either build an extra bookshelf or buy a center channel directly from Ed Frias (the designer)...

There's lots of home theater kit ideas at Madisound.com too...try the Vifa ones, they get good reviews, or the audax HT kit.

For great performance on a tight budget, the Dayton projects at Speakerbuilder.net (Dayton Budget, DIII's, etc) are probably the way to go...you can find matching centers at the Project Showcase...It all depends how much you want to spend.

What do you have now?

hmmmm
04-01-2005, 12:06 PM
[
What do you have now?[/QUOTE]
I have Cambridge Soundworks Newton M60's for left and right on custom stands (I actually love the way the stands look...they were my first DIY project)
The Middle speaker is the Newton MC500 and the surrounds are their dipole/bipole surrounds (I can't remember which model but one of their better ones)- Of course you already know the sub.

kexodusc
04-07-2005, 10:03 AM
What do you have now?
I have Cambridge Soundworks Newton M60's for left and right on custom stands (I actually love the way the stands look...they were my first DIY project)
The Middle speaker is the Newton MC500 and the surrounds are their dipole/bipole surrounds (I can't remember which model but one of their better ones)- Of course you already know the sub.
Sorry, hmmm, for some reason I never got the auto-e-mail and missed this earlier.

In my home theater I decided to go with the EFE AR.com DIY's. I also built the PeeCreek's on Speakerbuilder.net, and almost went with those...I prefer the ar.com DIY's, much nicer top end a more natural soundstage to my ears, not as razor sharp or tightly focused imaging. For Home Theater, either would be great IMO. The AR.com's replaced my Paradigm Studio 40's and 20's (version 2)...fantastic value in that design.
You can buy better drivers and come up with a better speaker, but as a beginner's speaker project, the AR.com's are winners for sure...and the prices are right at Madisound.com. $175 for a kit with decent quality crossover parts (pre-assembled crossovers at that), or $340 for the finished cabinets and all parts.

I see the 240 watt amp is in stock again...shouldn't be long now!

hmmmm
04-07-2005, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=kexodusc]Sorry, hmmm, for some reason I never got the auto-e-mail and missed this earlier.

First you won't return my calls, and now this?!
Just kidding. I just received my amp today and am leaving work early to install it:) I'll post a picture if I can figure it out. I saw on another site a couple people complained that their box vibrated to much and made an annoying sound (doing the same project). Hopefully that doesn't happen to me. Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes.
I appreciate the home theater advice. I might take a short break from speaker building to do some projects for my wife. I'm in the middle of reading speaker building 201. I definately will start something in a few months though.
have to run...

kexodusc
04-08-2005, 07:18 AM
SP 201 is an awesome book.

I recommend the larger David Weems book too (Designing, Building, and Testing Loudspeakers I think).

If your cabinet is built well there shouldn't be any resonance...I think I read the same post on the PE tech talk forum. that guy used a plywood, which hopefully you didn't.

hmmmm
04-09-2005, 09:41 PM
SP 201 is an awesome book.

I recommend the larger David Weems book too (Designing, Building, and Testing Loudspeakers I think).

If your cabinet is built well there shouldn't be any resonance...I think I read the same post on the PE tech talk forum. that guy used a plywood, which hopefully you didn't.

I finished the sub yesterday and it sounds awesome. I've been busy, but in the little time I've had to play some sacd's, dvd'a and movies, it has performed great. I've cranked the blue man group dvd-a up and several others and I haven't had any problems at all. This has been a great experience. Hopefully, when I'm audited Tuesday, that will go as smooth!
Tomorrow I'll check out some of my favorite movie scenes and see how it does.

kexodusc
04-10-2005, 06:05 AM
Congrats!!! Just remember to take it easy on the volume control.

Try to cross it over as low as your receiver and main speakers will allow...80 is fine, 60 Hz is better, etc.

I don't remember, did you get the BFD too? Boosting the 20-35 Hz signals at a few points will do wonders as well. You'd have to spend near $800-$1000 to get a sub capable of this.

Have any pics yet?

hmmmm
04-10-2005, 03:53 PM
I didn't get the BFD yet but will. I've been on a spending craze on the home theater so I need to chill to keep the wife calm. I'll get some photos soon. I should have some more free time by the end of next week. I have the cross over at 80 but will try 60. The guy at CSW said 60 is ideal for the front three but not the surrounds.

kexodusc
04-11-2005, 03:30 AM
If your surrounds don't have an F3 at 60 Hz or so, then the CSW guy isn't off by saying the surrounds could suffer. Of course, you could always set them to "large" and not worry about it....
Some rooms/setups are more forgiving to higher crossovers too, so a bit of experimentation is called for.

hmmmm
04-15-2005, 06:40 AM
If your surrounds don't have an F3 at 60 Hz or so, then the CSW guy isn't off by saying the surrounds could suffer. Of course, you could always set them to "large" and not worry about it....
Some rooms/setups are more forgiving to higher crossovers too, so a bit of experimentation is called for.

O.K. I'll admit that last night I watched "Electra" and loved it. Not a great movie of course but I found it entertaining. Now, why post this here? Well, I had to watch this after my daughter and wife went to bed. In otherwords, I had to keep the volume down. I have never felt the bass so intense at such a low level. It was amazing. Also, earlier in the evening, while weightlifting in another room that I can open up to listen to the system in the home theater room, the bass vibrated the universal gym. This was at a higher volume of course but nothing extreme (again because of the wife factor) You usually need to have insert quarters to get that type of feeling! I've been using that room for years and have never felt the bass like that. This of course is after the sub was calibrated so I know it's not that it was turned up too high. I'm liking this sub more every day.
Now, I wish there was an "out" switch on this like the Hsu to bypass the sub's crossover. It's hard to tell where exactly 60 or 80 is on the dial... or is that just me?

kexodusc
04-15-2005, 07:01 AM
Great to hear your loving the sub...I'm drooling in anticipation now...My amp should arrive today, and I hope to start early next week.

Word of advice on the sub's crossover...what you should be doing is setting the sub's crossover all the way to the max position and let the receiver's built in crossover handle the LFE cutoff (crossover). You may need to set your speakers to small depending on the receiver if you haven't already, but don't worry, in most setups, this is the recommended method and will improve your main speaker performance too...bass frequencies demand the most power, by routing that signal to the sub, you are relieving the speakers of that burden and allowing them to focus on 80 Hz and above...Often you'll notice improved dynamics and better midrange.

The variable crossovers aren't always perfect, and setting it to 60 or 80 could cause some frequencies that you don't want cut off to be attenuated.

hmmmm
04-15-2005, 08:24 AM
Great to hear your loving the sub...I'm drooling in anticipation now...My amp should arrive today, and I hope to start early next week.

Word of advice on the sub's crossover...what you should be doing is setting the sub's crossover all the way to the max position and let the receiver's built in crossover handle the LFE cutoff (crossover). You may need to set your speakers to small depending on the receiver if you haven't already, but don't worry, in most setups, this is the recommended method and will improve your main speaker performance too...bass frequencies demand the most power, by routing that signal to the sub, you are relieving the speakers of that burden and allowing them to focus on 80 Hz and above...Often you'll notice improved dynamics and better midrange.

The variable crossovers aren't always perfect, and setting it to 60 or 80 could cause some frequencies that you don't want cut off to be attenuated.

Thanks for the advice. I always thought if you set it to max, that you would get the bass overlapping too much and it would sound "muddier". I'll change it when I get home. The Yammie says the front three are large but I had changed them to small awhile ago.

kexodusc
04-15-2005, 09:03 AM
My Yamaha RX-V1400 picks up my DIY's as large too...it's not the size of the speaker you go buy, but rather it's range...I think if it detects speakers below 70 Hz or so it will call them "large"...not really the right word for it IMO.
Don't worry about the frequency overlap or anything...the receiver will use it's processing capabilities to set the crossover, you just won't get frequencies above the cutoff point so setting the sub's XO to 100 or even 200Hz won't matter. Typically if your sub has a by-pass on the crossover (XO) then I'd suggest using that, but in absence, setting it to max is just as good.
As I mentioned though setting it below can cause some inaccurate response as your using 2 crossovers in the same range...not desireable. Not to mention the analog circuitry isn't necessarily as accurate as your receiver's crossover.
I found 60 or even 40Hz was the best blend with my main speakers, if your receiver allows it....

hmmmm
04-15-2005, 09:18 AM
I have the same receiver. I'll try setting the crossover at 60 and see how that does. I think the manual for the speaker says to set it as close to 60 as possible for the left and right but the center should be at 80. Its interesting because the center is twice the size of the left and right but an acoustic suspension instead of ported.

kexodusc
04-15-2005, 09:51 AM
Manuals are great places to start, the problem is they assume average everything. Average knowledge, average room, average gear. Until recently most speakers had the xo fixed at 80 or 90 Hz...now they're much more flexible...
In the end it could be right, but try a few settings out...the rule of thumb is generally the lower the better, provided you don't go outside the range of the weakest speaker.

toenail
04-16-2005, 05:20 AM
I just stumbled onto this thread and am psyched to see someone getting into DIY and enjoying it this way. Excellent advice from Kex and others as well as informative links. I discovered diyaudio.com a year or so ago and it was hard not to jump in with both feet (and credit card). I'll second the promotion of the BFD, though you may want to measure response first and see how far off you are. I had no idea how much LFE I was missing until I got a flat curve down to the 16-18hz range. You can move some serious air down there. Have fun with your new toy.

hmmmm
04-16-2005, 06:58 AM
I just stumbled onto this thread and am psyched to see someone getting into DIY and enjoying it this way. Excellent advice from Kex and others as well as informative links. I discovered diyaudio.com a year or so ago and it was hard not to jump in with both feet (and credit card). I'll second the promotion of the BFD, though you may want to measure response first and see how far off you are. I had no idea how much LFE I was missing until I got a flat curve down to the 16-18hz range. You can move some serious air down there. Have fun with your new toy.

The BFD will be my next purchase. It's not the price holding me back. It's the wife! It could be one dollar and she'd say "when's it going to stop" She's actually pretty cool about it, so after I get my bar installed I'll get it. I had to get her a new sink, etc...to keep her happy for awhile:) Is it easy to get the settings right or will I need to spend forever reading a thick manual?

kexodusc
04-16-2005, 07:02 AM
Nah, when you get the BFD you're going to rely on this site for all your needs:
http://www.snapbug.ws/bfd.htm

It's no harder than setting up the rest of your system, but a bit of trial and error is involved. You'll find yourself learning a lot about lower frequencies and how they interact with your room's acoustics...a good learning experience.

toenail
04-16-2005, 10:03 AM
hmmmmmm- As Kex mentioned, that link will offer more insight than the actual manual. The link is simplified and sometimes redundant but very accurate. The manual is geared more towards the pro audio crowd. I skimmed the manual and used it's reference chart for target frequencies, but largely used the link as my guide. Once you set a few filters all you need is the frequency reference guide in the manual, the rest will come naturally.


Amazing how universally the wive's are "bought off" (said toungue in cheek of course) to futher the hobby of audio! Thinking logically, after a large expense (audio gear) it would make more sense to scale back spending for a bit to account for it. Instead we end up spending more for appeasments sake. Just got to remember to budget double for every AV expense to afford the ensuing purse/shoe/outfit expense.

hmmmm
04-16-2005, 10:21 AM
Amazing how universally the wive's are "bought off" (said toungue in cheek of course) to futher the hobby of audio! Thinking logically, after a large expense (audio gear) it would make more sense to scale back spending for a bit to account for it. Instead we end up spending more for appeasments sake. Just got to remember to budget double for every AV expense to afford the ensuing purse/shoe/outfit expense.[/QUOTE]

She wants a swimming pool and after the first few estimates...well, all I can say is that I should be fine with my hobby for at least the next 10 years!

kexodusc
04-18-2005, 09:07 AM
Amazing how universally the wive's are "bought off" (said toungue in cheek of course) to futher the hobby of audio! Thinking logically, after a large expense (audio gear) it would make more sense to scale back spending for a bit to account for it. Instead we end up spending more for appeasments sake. Just got to remember to budget double for every AV expense to afford the ensuing purse/shoe/outfit expense.

She wants a swimming pool and after the first few estimates...well, all I can say is that I should be fine with my hobby for at least the next 10 years![/QUOTE]

ROFLMAO!!!
This is so true.

I always get the "you're building ANOTHER speaker" line thrown at me...geez I've got about 19 speakers in my home, 6 of them aren't even being used. The ones in the garage and dining room might get an hour a week if they're lucky. I've got my Studio 40's in my closet. Just can't bring myself to sell them yet, for the simple reason I like having a popular commercial speaker around to gauge the various DIY projects I do.