Is a good preamp & amp better than a good receiver? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : Is a good preamp & amp better than a good receiver?



hershon
03-05-2005, 08:42 PM
To simplify things, without going into my own particulars, for playing CD's in an apartment that's carpeted in a normal sized living room, are you better off in terms of sound quality only not features, buying a good amp and a good preamp or just a good receiver? Assume you have good speakers. If the answer is a good amp/preamp, exactly how much better will the sound quality be. Assume your playing rock and blues music not classical music. Your insight welcome.

Also if the answer is a preamp/amp, how don't you need a 5.1 amp and preamp to play 5.1 DVD's?

chimera128
03-05-2005, 11:40 PM
I thought you were happy with your all in one jvc system?

hershon
03-05-2005, 11:49 PM
I thought you were happy with your all in one jvc system?

I am but I just got an unexpected $1,900 check from UPS for losing a package- long story for another day so I got some more money to play with & as I said, I'm open to ideas in improving my sound quality even if I'm happy with it, as long as I have the money on hand, don't have to replace my Orb speakers and can return the merchandise if I'm not happy.
The main thing is, I don't want to take the trouble of buying, setting up & then returning a system, if in all likelyhood it won't improve sound quality.

drseid
03-06-2005, 04:02 AM
I am but I just got an unexpected $1,900 check from UPS for losing a package- long story for another day so I got some more money to play with & as I said, I'm open to ideas in improving my sound quality even if I'm happy with it, as long as I have the money on hand, don't have to replace my Orb speakers and can return the merchandise if I'm not happy.
The main thing is, I don't want to take the trouble of buying, setting up & then returning a system, if in all likelyhood it won't improve sound quality.
"Good speakers" is a relative term... The answer (and I realize this is somewhat of a cop out) is "it depends."

Revealing (and/or low impedance) speakers can benefit *as a general rule*.

That said, there are no guarantees... It depends on the quality and match of the separates, the quality of the receiver, the quality of all the other components in the chain (CD Player, phonograph, speakers, etc.)... and the recording, of course.

Now, getting to your more specific example:

Believe it or not, but $1900 (unfortunately) is "small bucks" in the multi-channel separates world (my Cary pre/pro alone was $2500, and it is considered by many as "entry level" -- my wallet says otherwise, but that is another story).

New, just about the only combination you can afford would be a combo from Outlaw Audio (sold over the net). I have bought from them on both Pre/Pro (Model 950) and the M200 Monoblock amps, and none of them sounded good in my system (but others love the brand, and I will agree that they are very good for the money)... How will they sound compared to the JVC? I would guess quite good in comparison, but I would have said that about the Denon and other components that did not work for you... So who knows?

Used, you might be able to pair a Pre/Pro from B&K with a Rotel Multi-channel amp like the RB-985 I own... That would sound quite nice to me, but in your system, you again might feel otherwise... The other drawback is you want return rights... and with used, that is not going to happen. You most likely could re-sell the goods for about what you bought them for though...

All of this is academic, however, as you will not part with what is most likely the limiting factor in your system (and you know what I am referring to...). Until you do, all of these changes are a waste of your time, and the selling store's as well (not to mention their money, as they will most likely have to sell the goods as customer returns at a discount once you bring yet another component back after it "didn't work"). I am relatively certain that you will not hear an improvement on your system as is, unfortunately...

Seriously Hershon, if you are willing to buy electronics, oddball tweaks and esoteric cables on approval, why not speakers? If you don't like the speakers when compared to your Orbs in your room, then you can return them just as readily as the other items... There is no disloyalty to Orb (or any brand for that matter) to look and try other speakers out there... I am always looking for a possible replacement for my Tylers, and I too am very happy with their sound... It is just human nature to look. :-)

If you still are not willing to consider alternatives to the Orbs, and will only change things that have almost no effect on sound, then like others have recommended in the past... just be happy, and stop looking in these other areas that will only most likely frustrate you in the long-run.

Just my two cents...

---Dave

kexodusc
03-06-2005, 06:47 AM
Hershon,
Are you serious here or are you just pulling everyone's chain?
This is getting rediculous. You've been asking the same basic question for weeks now, and getting the same answers.
What are you hoping to hear? Do you really think the answers are going to be different this time around?
You've already received more advice than any other poster I can think of...you know what you need to do.
Just heard an old cliche for the first time in years..."You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." Seems fitting here.
This reeks of TROLL to me!

chimera128
03-06-2005, 07:17 AM
IF you are happy with your current system which you have defended and advertised the greatness of in past postings, then use the windfall for something else. Get more cds and dvds. Get a supercharger installed in your car. I would seriously look into subs though. If you are happy with the performance of the orbs you will probably enjoy it if you have a solid bass foundation to go along with them. Not to say that the orb sub isn't good, I have looked at the specs and it doesn't have the depth of some of the good subs out there, but a great sub will make a huge difference in a variety of media. Plus it will give you a great foundation to start a new system if you ever decide to go that route.

hershon
03-06-2005, 07:26 AM
First off genious, I've been asking variances of a theme. I totally appologize that I didn't ask you for permission to post any questions as I forgot this isn't a free country.

Secondly, I basically did drop my questions on a new system till I got an unexpected minor $1900 windfall yesterday so my economic options increased &I wanted to understand the concept better of amps and preamps. I met with Paul on this board last week who lives near me and he started to tell me about these so I wanted to know more. Excuse me for wanting to increase my knowledge.

Thirdly, I worded this topic without mentioning my speaker brand this time.

So the bottom line is, I forgot to realize that I needed to obtain your permission and/or approval to post a question. By the way, if you don't like a thread or the poster, you don't have to read it. It's a tough concept to understand..



Hershon,
Are you serious here or are you just pulling everyone's chain?
This is getting rediculous. You've been asking the same basic question for weeks now, and getting the same answers.
What are you hoping to hear? Do you really think the answers are going to be different this time around?
You've already received more advice than any other poster I can think of...you know what you need to do.
Just heard an old cliche for the first time in years..."You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." Seems fitting here.
This reeks of TROLL to me!

hershon
03-06-2005, 07:38 AM
I probably should have mentioned that the other major reason why I remain fixated on Orb Speakers is that their satellite speakers fit and look best in my living room as I don't like a cluttered or closed in type room. Here are 2 pictures of my set up. Photo one is the front speakers on top of my Mitsubishi 48" HDTV. These are centered to where I sit on my couch. The sub is to the left of my TV. Photo 2 are the rear speakers, to the left and right of my couch. So look and space limitations is also a major reason for my being fixated at the Orbs besides sound to clarify this a bit further.




"Good speakers" is a relative term... The answer (and I realize this is somewhat of a cop out) is "it depends."

Revealing (and/or low impedance) speakers can benefit *as a general rule*.

That said, there are no guarantees... It depends on the quality and match of the separates, the quality of the receiver, the quality of all the other components in the chain (CD Player, phonograph, speakers, etc.)... and the recording, of course.

Now, getting to your more specific example:

Believe it or not, but $1900 (unfortunately) is "small bucks" in the multi-channel separates world (my Cary pre/pro alone was $2500, and it is considered by many as "entry level" -- my wallet says otherwise, but that is another story).

New, just about the only combination you can afford would be a combo from Outlaw Audio (sold over the net). I have bought from them on both Pre/Pro (Model 950) and the M200 Monoblock amps, and none of them sounded good in my system (but others love the brand, and I will agree that they are very good for the money)... How will they sound compared to the JVC? I would guess quite good in comparison, but I would have said that about the Denon and other components that did not work for you... So who knows?

Used, you might be able to pair a Pre/Pro from B&K with a Rotel Multi-channel amp like the RB-985 I own... That would sound quite nice to me, but in your system, you again might feel otherwise... The other drawback is you want return rights... and with used, that is not going to happen. You most likely could re-sell the goods for about what you bought them for though...

All of this is academic, however, as you will not part with what is most likely the limiting factor in your system (and you know what I am referring to...). Until you do, all of these changes are a waste of your time, and the selling store's as well (not to mention their money, as they will most likely have to sell the goods as customer returns at a discount once you bring yet another component back after it "didn't work"). I am relatively certain that you will not hear an improvement on your system as is, unfortunately...

Seriously Hershon, if you are willing to buy electronics, oddball tweaks and esoteric cables on approval, why not speakers? If you don't like the speakers when compared to your Orbs in your room, then you can return them just as readily as the other items... There is no disloyalty to Orb (or any brand for that matter) to look and try other speakers out there... I am always looking for a possible replacement for my Tylers, and I too am very happy with their sound... It is just human nature to look. :-)

If you still are not willing to consider alternatives to the Orbs, and will only change things that have almost no effect on sound, then like others have recommended in the past... just be happy, and stop looking in these other areas that will only most likely frustrate you in the long-run.

Just my two cents...

---Dave
[IMG]

chimera128
03-06-2005, 07:42 AM
I don't see any pictures.

N. Abstentia
03-06-2005, 07:58 AM
In audio, there is a point of diminishing returns. Sounds like you're there.

In other words, unless you're willing to upgrade the speakers also, I wouldn't dump too much money into a preamp/amp setup. Besides, $1900 would only get you a down payment on just the preamp. Plan to spend around $4000 on the pair. Then if you do you will DEFINITELY want new speakers..there's a few more thousand!

Also this statement confuses me:
"Also if the answer is a preamp/amp, how don't you need a 5.1 amp and preamp to play 5.1 DVD's?"

What the heck are you talking about?

Geoffcin
03-06-2005, 08:06 AM
Because you guys are veterans I'm not going to moderate...yet, but please let's not degenerate into name calling.

Oh, and I think $1900 can buy you into some pretty good gear too. Best bang for the buck is used. Try Audiogon.com

Even better, Kexo can set you up with some DIY speakers with seriously good drivers. Blow those Orbs across the room!

hershon
03-06-2005, 08:10 AM
For some reason even though the were jpegs they were too big. After about 10 attempts I finally resized and cropped them that they should work now, sorry.


I don't see any pictures.

hershon
03-06-2005, 08:11 AM
You're probably right.



In audio, there is a point of diminishing returns. Sounds like you're there.

In other words, unless you're willing to upgrade the speakers also, I wouldn't dump too much money into a preamp/amp setup. Besides, $1900 would only get you a down payment on just the preamp. Plan to spend around $4000 on the pair. Then if you do you will DEFINITELY want new speakers..there's a few more thousand!

Also this statement confuses me:
"Also if the answer is a preamp/amp, how don't you need a 5.1 amp and preamp to play 5.1 DVD's?"

What the heck are you talking about?

N. Abstentia
03-06-2005, 08:17 AM
Yeah I wouldn't worry about it. After seeing the pictures I'd say the speakers and the placement are what are holding you back. Of course the size of the speakers will prevent you from getting a huge sound, but the way they are placed will get you zero soundstage and zero imaging. Those three speakers are so close together that they will probably sound more like one speaker coming from one point instead of 3 seperate sound origins. There's no seperation!

hershon
03-06-2005, 08:26 AM
To me I hear seperation but I'm willing to concede you probably are right. I could put the left and right front speakers on stands away from the TV but in the left speaker case, it would then be by the window of my terrace/balcony which faces the outside lobby of my apartment & I'm pretty sure the sound would bring instant complaints from the people in the building. I guess that's a trade off for living in an apartment instead of a house.



Yeah I wouldn't worry about it. After seeing the pictures I'd say the speakers and the placement are what are holding you back. Of course the size of the speakers will prevent you from getting a huge sound, but the way they are placed will get you zero soundstage and zero imaging. Those three speakers are so close together that they will probably sound more like one speaker coming from one point instead of 3 seperate sound origins. There's no seperation!

kexodusc
03-06-2005, 09:38 AM
First off genious, I've been asking variances of a theme. I totally appologize that I didn't ask you for permission to post any questions as I forgot this isn't a free country.
Apology accepted..


Secondly, I basically did drop my questions on a new system till I got an unexpected minor $1900 windfall yesterday so my economic options increased &I wanted to understand the concept better of amps and preamps. I met with Paul on this board last week who lives near me and he started to tell me about these so I wanted to know more. Excuse me for wanting to increase my knowledge.
Look, I'm not trying to flame you, just making sure you're not trolling...you have a unique way of going about increasing your knowledge here, and I'm not the first to confuse it with trolling. My apologies.

FWIW, you've had a lot of good advice given to you on this very subject in some other threads of yours. I think you can appreciate the redundancy of this thread.
There's a lot of good threads on this very subject in the amp/pre-amp forum dating back years, far more than you'll get here (hell, I probably asked a few)...if your serious about wanting to increase your knowledge (a goal I can appreciate and respect) may I ask if you tried a search?



Thirdly, I worded this topic without mentioning my speaker brand this time.
So? What's that got to do with anything? Sorry, but you received a very thorough and comprehensive answer in another of your threads as recently as FRIDAY that would seem to remove the need for this thread. You were told WHY separates are better than receivers...This thread seems to be a step backwards. Knowing WHY they are better, why would you ask IF they are better? Follow me here?
My bad, I take it for granted that everyone here reads the responses to threads they start. I'm sure you did, so this thread is a bit perplexing to those of us who follow your threads. Perhaps you can further elaborate as to what information you are specifically looking for.

To be a little constructive, I'll add that a typical pre-amp or good pre-pro will also have higher quality components in it, and in particular, handle analog signals much better than your typical entry level receiver. The DAC's used to be better, but really today I wouldn't say they're better enough to justify the price. If using digital outs from a DVD/CD player, a good pre/pro is only going to be better than a receiver IF its DAC and transports are better (which they often are, but not by much). IMO, a good portion of "sound quality" is lost in the pre-amp stage of your average sub $1000 receiver. But as you've heard before, this loss isn't astronomical, it's just a loss.

drseid
03-06-2005, 09:54 AM
I probably should have mentioned that the other major reason why I remain fixated on Orb Speakers is that their satellite speakers fit and look best in my living room as I don't like a cluttered or closed in type room. Here are 2 pictures of my set up. Photo one is the front speakers on top of my Mitsubishi 48" HDTV. These are centered to where I sit on my couch. The sub is to the left of my TV. Photo 2 are the rear speakers, to the left and right of my couch. So look and space limitations is also a major reason for my being fixated at the Orbs besides sound to clarify this a bit further.




[IMG]

After looking at the pictures you attached, that explains a lot indeed... *Now* I understand why you are somewhat hesitant to consider changing speakers... I can see you ain't kidding when you say space is rather limited (especially for the fronts)... It would indeed be difficult to switch to larger speakers in the setup the way you like it (or need it to be considering space requirements)...

---Dave

hershon
03-06-2005, 10:48 AM
My living room is actually fairly large, I had to crop the photo and make it alot smaller because it wouldn't download into this site unfortunately. I could actually fit the normal size speakers into the living room but I'd have a totally closed in type feeling for myself.


After looking at the pictures you attached, that explains a lot indeed... *Now* I understand why you are somewhat hesitant to consider changing speakers... I can see you ain't kidding when you say space is rather limited (especially for the fronts)... It would indeed be difficult to switch to larger speakers in the setup the way you like it (or need it to be considering space requirements)...

---Dave