Rotel vs AudioSource??

[mjhloomans]

Hi everybody,

I am planning to buy a new amplifier, first to drive my passive sub (Kenwood SW-X1), but maybe later for more. After some browsing at some shops I found the following two affordable amplifiers:

- AudioSource Amp Two (Or is it an Amp One? See my question later...)
- Rotel RB-970BX MkII

Both are selling for the same price (US$160/S$250) and I don't know which one to choose. Both have good specs, the Rotel slightly better but then I also found some very good reviews on the AudioSource on this website. The reviews for the Rotel are not that useful... Please help me decide!!!

Another question regarding the rotel:
- What is the difference between the RB-970BX and the RB-970BX MkII?

Another question regarding the AudioSource Amp Two:
- The model actually says Amp One on the face plate, but it looks completely like an Amp Two!! :confused: On the front it has the four buttons plus the two VU meters.... (like Amp Two). But on the back it does not have the auto power feature (Amp Two should have) but it does have a double set of plugs. (like Amp Two, Amp One only has on set of plugs).. :confused: Aaargh, what model is this? I cannot find it at the AudioSource website (www.audiosource.net) or anywhere else on the web...

Thank you all in advance for looking at my questions!
:D Marijn

[mjhloomans]

Hi,

I found some more info on the Amps from Audiosource. Apparently it is like this:

1. Amp One/A = 80W/channel, 200W bridged, 0.04% THD, 110dB SNR
2. Amp One = As 1. + Vu meters + Peak Limiter + A/B selection + headphone jack
3. Amp Two = As 2. + Auto power + CD direct input....

These are the differences as I can see them from the manuals that I found in the FTP section of AudioSource. I don't know if there are internally any other differences though. Actually I don't think there are any mojor differences but still it's strange to see that the Amp Two gets a better rating than the Amp One(/A). :confused:

The amp I saw selling over here though is guaranteed number 2: Amp One (without the A). Is the sound quality of this amp equal to the Amp Two? The looks and almost everything else seems to be the identical... Or is the rotel better? Lower THD and higher SNR, but reviews so so..

Thanks!
:D Marijn

[Shwamdoo]

I wouldn't base your decision on the reviews that you read on this website. Any goon can get on and write a review. 3/4 of them are from people who made a purchase and want to reasure themselfs. Idealy, you should hear them both and decide which you like. However, you may not be able to. So...I'll tell you this: Rotel has a more widely recognised name and will probably be a good choice as far as reliability and service go. Plus, most people seem to think that their products sound good with respect to their prices. I don't know much at all about AudioSource. It is a lesser known brand but that really doesn't mean anything. Since I haven't heard any of their products, I won't comment on them.

If it were my decision, and I had to make it quickly, I would choose the Rotel. But, this is only because I haven't heard them both. If I had the chance I would do some reaserch and find several possible amplifiers and go hear them.

Goodluck.

[mazdamanic]

I have the rotel rb-970 mk II and it is an excellent buy if you find one under $250. Has plenty of current to handle transients. I have also used audiosource amps and they are not bad but quality of components in the rotel are superior. Audiosource has some reliability issues with those vu meters so you would be better off getting one without them.

[kexodusc]

I've got two Rotel amps now, an old 980 power amp, and a newer RA-1070 integrated. I like them both just fine.
My AudioSource AmpOne was the single best deal I ever found in audio, just because I got it for so cheap. I really like it. I've opened it up, and other than the VU meters (which are really cheap but don't affect sound), the quality of the electronics used if for the most part what you'd expect from an amp under $500, including Rotel.
To my ears it really is a giant killer...I won't say outright better than the Rotel, but comparable. To tell you the truth, if you end up with an AudioSource, you'll want the VU meters to burn out fast, they're freaking annoying when they light up, and aren't terribly accurate anyway. I posted a review on one earlier this year, and contrary to the narrow-minded opinion of others, I didn't post it to help me feel good about my purchase.

I think for your price range though, you should also consider Parasound and Adcom gear (used)...good value in those.

[Shwamdoo]

I said that with regard to 3/4 of people. I didn't mean for that to include you in anyway. I was refering to the people that don't even use the forum as a tool, but rather simply post extremly biased reviews after buying a product to reasure themselfs. Your nearly 2,000 posts makes it obvious that you aren't simply active in order to raise your self esteem. You obviously want to learn. I didn't mean for my previous post to offend you or anyone. I just wanted to advise mjhloomans not to take product reviews on this site too seriously.

Sorry. :(

[royphil345]

A vote for Rotel. I'd say as far as the reviews go, the reviewers of the Audio Source amps are probably a little less experienced on average and a little less picky.

I think Rotel amps sound great. Only downside is that they don't seem to drive difficult speakers as well as some other amps. Seldom an issue though.

[mjhloomans]

Hi everybody!

Thanks for numerous replies! I wish I found this forum a long time ago .. :cool:

The sub I'm planning to drive is 8 ohms, so bridging the Rotel should be possible. Furthermore it is 75W RMS, 150W maximum while going from 20Hz to 5kHz.

Both amps I can get brand new for that price, but I have the impression both amps are actually quite old. Anybody knows when the two amps were released? I can find for the Rotel RB970BX on their website, but the MkII is not metioned anywhere.

Btw, do you guys (male/female) know whether I can drive the Rotel directly from the Sub-Out cinch of my Onkyo amplifier? The Rotel doesn't have any volume control (unlike the Audiosource) so I would have to adjust it through my amplifier (+/- 12dB).

Thanks!!
:D Marijn

[kexodusc]

I said that with regard to 3/4 of people. I didn't mean for that to include you in anyway. I was refering to the people that don't even use the forum as a tool, but rather simply post extremly biased reviews after buying a product to reasure themselfs. Your nearly 2,000 posts makes it obvious that you aren't simply active in order to raise your self esteem. You obviously want to learn. I didn't mean for my previous post to offend you or anyone. I just wanted to advise mjhloomans not to take product reviews on this site too seriously.

Sorry. :(

I wasn't offended, just defending the reviews here. I got flammed a bit way back when for raving about this cheap amp, left over bitterness on my part maybe...sorry. I guess some people think only big brand names can ever be good though...not true.

I agree that many people will give their gear a 5/5 just because they own it...but I think most people put more weight on the negative reviews and less attention to the ones that say "Paradigm is the best" etc...it's the info in the reviews that's useful, not just the number. I always try to do comparisons with gear I own in my reviews. I don't always give great ratings either.

I think the reviews are a good tool. Just like asking people in the forums (who are often the same people). I agree they shouldn't be the determining factor, but they can be useful.

(actually, my nearly 2000 posts has more to do with the large amounts of free time I had last year :D )

[kexodusc]

A vote for Rotel. I'd say as far as the reviews go, the reviewers of the Audio Source amps are probably a little less experienced on average and a little less picky.

I think Rotel amps sound great. Only downside is that they don't seem to drive difficult speakers as well as some other amps. Seldom an issue though.

Many of the reviewers were knowledgeable and experienced...AudioSource is a favorite budget brand in the DIY circles...

I've never heard that Rotel struggles more with harder loads, that's interesting...the Rotel gear I've owned has no problem handling 4 ohm loads...I used my old amp to power a passive sub too...4 ohm, large impedence swings. Can't get much harder than that. Never tried a speaker that would drop below 2 ohms though, but I think that would cause any amp in this range some problems.

mjhloomans: I thought maybe you were looking at a used 970. If these are old stock that are "brand new", your decision is easy - get the Rotel. I usually see newer AudioSource units like that sold for around $100 to $125.
As the others have said, I would agree that the Rotel is just a small step up over the AudioSource in terms of quality and performance. AudioSource is popular because it's performance is "close" to that of a similarly sized Rotel amp, but it's usually much cheaper...prices equal you'd be better off with the Rotel...
Err...can we ask where you've found this pricing?

[Shwamdoo]

Seriously, that is quite a steal on the Rotel. Are you sure it isn't listed in some foreign currency? :D

[icarian]

Mjhloomans,
I have a little experience with the AS Amp two, we use one in the gym i work at, their is no way for me to know how good it actually sounds, there is too much other noise, but i can say that it is capable of filling a very large space with a decent level of sound. ROTEL on the other hand has my vote, I just purchased a RA 1060 to power my dynaudio's and it does very well IMHO. I listened to alot of music through different rotel's on a lot of different speakers and i was very impressed all the way around. Anyways, i hope this helps.
Icarian

[This Guy]

I've got an Audiosource Amp 3, great amp, biggest bargain in my system. I got it refurbished for $210. Great customer service as well. I emailed them about something, he returned the email within 2hours. When I asked him a question he didn't know, he asked his manager (or someone that new more about it than him) and gave me my answer within the 6 hours or so. They really knew what they were talking about.

[mjhloomans]

Hi!

Thanks again for all the replies! :)

Let me get you guys out of the dark on the pricing. Both are S$250 which at a rate of US$1 = S$1.65 comes down to around US$ 150... In Euros around 125 I would guess. Both sets are on display in the shops (very common over here in Singapore), but not connected. For the Audiosource I know for sure its the only set, new and never used, comes with warrenty and things like that. The Rotel I assumed is new, but let me double check that... It looked new but you never know right? ;)

As the two amplifiers come from two different shops it will be very difficult to compare them by listening actually. Both will use completely different preamps and speakers, which will influence the sound much more than the difference between these amps.

At the moment I am inclined to buy the Rotel, but I really really hope I can directly connect it to my Onkyo without any additional pre-amp. I feel the Rotel is slightly better than the AudioSource but usually also more expensive. In that case the AudioSource is a good deal. But since I can get them at the same price, I feel the Rotel is a better choice for me. But first let me check whether the Rotel is a new model or used one.....

Btw, does anybody know what years the Rotel RB970BX MkII was produced? I know the RB970BX originates from 1994 but assume the MkII was released after that. And anybody knows the differences between these two models? The user manuals look almost identical.

I'll keep you all updated! Feel free though to post more opinions/real life stories/reviews/facts 'n figures/etc/etc/etc.. More data = better choice in my opinion.

Thanks!
:D Marijn

[srgetz]

It looks like it was made from 95-97

http://cgim.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_bb.pl?rotel&zzANY

[mjhloomans]

Hi!

I got an reply from the nice people from AudioSource confirming my guess about the different models of the amp. I quoted it below. I replied with a question regarding the build, whether the parts, circuit design and PCB are identical.

Tonight I'm going to check out whether the Rotel is a new one or not, I'll post the result later. From srgetz I heard it is quite old so I doubt whether it is a "new" set... If it turns out to be second hand, what is the better choice? 2nd hand Rotel or Brand new AudioSource....

Another 6 hours before I go to the shop..... :D

Thanks!
:D Marijn
__________________________________________________ ________________

Thank you for your interest in Phoenix Gold products.

Before the Amp One/A came out, we had an Amp One that did have VU meters
just like the Amp Two. When we made the Amp One/A, we removed absolutely
everything that wasn't absolutely necessary for sound quality (including the
VU meters). Our goal was to make a really cheap amplifier with awesome
sound quality.
This Amp One (Not "A") was basically an Amp Two without the Auto-On. It has
the exact same output power and the rest of the features are the same.

Thanks Again-
Alex Cousins
Technical Support Specialist
Phoenix Gold International
AudioSource

[mjhloomans]

Hi!

I am more confused than ever.... These are the results of my little hifi trip:

Audiosource Amp One
- New with 1 year warrenty
- Display model, very small chip on the top edge
- S$220 (US$130), but maybe can get a bit lower...

Rotel RB 970BX-MkII
- Used with 1 month warrenty
- Got quite some scratches on the top from other equipment and some on the front. I guess I was pretty blind the first time I saw it. /:cool:
- S$240 (US$145), hard to get lower, maybe should send one of my friends... ;)

Adcom 535 (I think...)
- Used
- Quite ok condition
- S$380 (US$230), didn't bargain as I don't know the model. It seems a bit much though..

NAD 216THX
- New with 2 year warrenty
- Display model with scratch over one of the LED on the front panel such that the text is missing...
- S$500 (US$300), pricetag said S$699 but because of the scratch & last model.....

The NAD is a story of its own, some rate it 1 star, some rate it 5 stars.. Then there also was a conspiracy theory on one of the reviewers..... Interesting indeed. A bit overkill for my current application though... In price and in power....

If I compare the specs of the Rotel and the Adcom, I feel the Rotel should win though. But I know looking at specs doesn't really always work.. I tried to look for Parasound but didn't see it around. (Thanks go to kexodusc for the tip on these brands!)

Then the Audiosource still the cheapest...

I'm so torn between the AudioSource and the Rotel.. New versus old.. Somebody help me please before I go crazy...........

:confused: Marijn :confused:

[kexodusc]

I have both an AudioSource Amp One and a Rotel RB-980...As well as a few Adcom 535's. The Adcom's are my favorite of the bunch sound wise, but the I give the AudioSource the best "bang-for-the-buck" award. These are all "budget" amplifiers, none are going to outperform a Krell or Bryston or anything. The Rotel is quite good too, but I can't honestly say it sounds much better than the AudioSource, if at all. I'm using these to power a 7.1 home theater system right now. Kind of a mismatch, I suppose, but I don't notice it.

Last time I checked you could get Adcom 535 amps used on ebay or Audiogon for $125-$150 USD. $230 is rediculously high...

[mjhloomans]

Hi everybody!

A good night sleep, and things are much clearer now. I felt good about the AudioSource once I woke up. Then this morning got an email from AudioSource saying the Amp One and Two are identical regarding the power supply & audio part. And then the last post from kexodusc made the decision easy:

I will buy the AudioSource! :D

Why?
- AudioSource vs Rotel -> almost similar sound, but lower price and brand new!!
- AudioSource vs Adcom -> The price for the adcom is just too high compared to the rest.
- AudioSource vs NAD -> The NAD is expensive, overpowered & mysterious in its reviews.

:) Thank you all for your input! It's greatly appreciated! :)

After I buy the amp (around thursday...) I will hook it up directly to my SACD player and give it a good run in. Will let you know later how it ended up... I don't have any worries though.

See you all around on the forum!
:D Marijn

________________________________________
The mail from AudioSource:

Thank you for your interest in Phoenix Gold products.

The Amp One and Amp Two are identical except for that auto-on switch and a
second input on the Amp Two. The internal components (power supply, output
transistors, etc...) are identical, so sound quality will be the same.
Below are links to the manuals for these amps. You can see their
similarities pretty clearly here.

ftp://208.187.38.55/AudioSource/Manuals/amps/ampone.pdf

ftp://208.187.38.55/AudioSource/Manuals/amps/amptwo.pdf

Thanks Again-
Alex Cousins
Technical Support Specialist
Phoenix Gold International
AudioSource

[kexodusc]

mjhloomans: I really think you might benefit from actually doing some listening tests. A power amp has a pretty long life-span. Just because I like the AudioSource as much as my old Rotel doesn't mean you will...
That being said, I'm confident you won't be disappointed in the Amp One, it's a good value...
However, I can say that Rotel is a decades old company with a huge world-wide fan base. They are a very established brand name.
AudioSource might be 10-13 years old or so and was recently acquired by Phoenix Gold (who owns the more popular brand "Carver"). I don't think AudioSource is as well known or respected as Rotel, still being a new-player in the industry. Don't be surprised if some audiophile-types aren't impressed with it's name...
I'd feel better knowing you listened to these and came to that conclusion yourself rather than just relying on what I or anybody else says.

[mjhloomans]

Hi kexodusc,

I actually agree totally with you regarding listening first and making the decision based on that rather than somebody else's opinion. Somebody might just have a different opinion than you right?

In this case however the listenening environments are far from optimal. They are so diverse that I do not even want to base my choice on it. This is the situation:
- The AudioSource amp I found in a shop selling mostly PA systems. So a lot of big amplifiers, big JBL speakers, microphones and 20 channel mixers. Not your typical audiophile shop. The Audiosource is the lowest power and the smallest amp they have....
- The Rotel I found in a shop with items ranging from old to new, from sony to adcom. The owner doesn't really know what he is talking about and none of the names of the speakers he has stacked up until the ceiling in his 9x9 feet shop sound familiar to me. As there is no sitting place or more accurately, no place at all in the shop (I cannot see any walls...) this also a less than optimal listening environment.

The shops are so different and both impossible to get a good listening test that I feel this is not a fair way to judge each of the amps.

That leaves me with opinions of other people. I realise somebody saying this amp is worth 5 stars and somebody else saying another amp is 4 stars does not mean much. Both have different opinions and expectations about a product. Much better is somebody that own both products and can give his opinion on which is better out of the two. This comparisation is much more fair.

I have some other considerations for choosing the AudioSource over the Rotel:
- The Rotel is quite old and in Singapore with its high humidity (>80%) this tends to spoil electronics faster than elsewhere.
- The audiosource has volume control, so later I can try it with just an SACD player to hear the difference with my Onkyo as I have no preamps.
- Still a student, once I get a job I can always upgrade to Rotel :D

Then besides that I won't open up the Rotel and DIY with it, while with the AudioSource I was thinking of this:
- I hope I can upgrade the AudioSource with an auto on feature.. Hopefully the PCB is the same as the Amp Two and then just a few parts might make a difference.
- Change the cheap output terminals with cheap (but good) gold plated ones.
- Was thinking of replacing the lights of the VU meter with blue LED or something... Should look better then the current over-bright failure-prone lightbulbs.

So although I agree with you listening yourself is the best way of going about audio equipment, in this case I hope you understand my reasoning.

Thanks for the input!
:D Marijn

[kexodusc]

Marijn: I think I mentioned before that the Amp One is a favorite in the DIY circles because of its excellent sound for the price, but also because it's quite easy to modify it as you've mentioned. I've added terminals to mine, a better power cord (not necessary and made no difference) and I disconnected both the lights behind the VU meters, and the meters themselves...I think there might be some advantage in keeping the path simple and straight in disconnecting these but I couldn't hear it, I just didn't like the bright lights. As for Auto On, never thought of that but I'm sure it's doable.

The top of the chassis isn't as heavy as a rotel or Adcom, but I find this to be a benefit, it runs much, much cooler than my Adcoms and Rotel. Who cares how thick the sheet metal is? Interior electronics are mostly of high quality (except the VU meters and terminals).
To be honest, I don't think swapping the terminals will yield much audible benefit either, in all honesty, but they do work better (easier to twist).

Neat feature about this amp is that you can plug a CD directly into it without a pre-amp (though I'm not a big fan of this)...I'm sure you'll like it...It remains my best find to date out of all my audio gear.
Enjoy.

[wfontenot]

Marijn: I think I mentioned before that the Amp One is a favorite in the DIY circles because of its excellent sound for the price, but also because it's quite easy to modify it as you've mentioned. I've added terminals to mine, a better power cord (not necessary and made no difference) and I disconnected both the lights behind the VU meters, and the meters themselves...I think there might be some advantage in keeping the path simple and straight in disconnecting these but I couldn't hear it, I just didn't like the bright lights. As for Auto On, never thought of that but I'm sure it's doable.

The top of the chassis isn't as heavy as a rotel or Adcom, but I find this to be a benefit, it runs much, much cooler than my Adcoms and Rotel. Who cares how thick the sheet metal is? Interior electronics are mostly of high quality (except the VU meters and terminals).
To be honest, I don't think swapping the terminals will yield much audible benefit either, in all honesty, but they do work better (easier to twist).

Neat feature about this amp is that you can plug a CD directly into it without a pre-amp (though I'm not a big fan of this)...I'm sure you'll like it...It remains my best find to date out of all my audio gear.
Enjoy.

What Adcom amp(s) are you running? Why do you prefer the audiosource?

[kexodusc]

What Adcom amp(s) are you running? Why do you prefer the audiosource?
I've owned 4 Adcom models, the GFA-555, GFA-535, a GFA-5300, and now 2 GFA-535II's (in that order).
The GFA-5300 sounded the worse to me and seem to be a step back in quality too...the GFA-535II's sound the best to me, but the 555 was a beast that took alot of punishment!!!

I wouldn't say I prefer the AudioSource over the Adcom's, because sound wise, I like the bright detailed highs of the Adcom and the punchy bass...some people find Adcom harsh (not me) and might like the AudioSource sound a bit more (which I would describe as softer, but still detailed, maybe more smooth than my Adcoms). If you had bright speakers, or a lively room, or prefer a softer sound than Adcom, the AudioSource might very well be preferable.

I'm a big fan of AudioSource because of the bang-for-the-buck though. These are great inexpensive amps that really are a big step up for people looking for something more than their receiver. I paid $80 for my Amp One (including shipping), that's why I'm so fond of it...I love finding great budget gear, money doesn't grow on trees here. Even just adding these to the pre-outs of a receiver is a step up, but find a decent inexpensive pre-amp (Rotel, Adcom, PS Audio, etc) and you are set. (I've heard the AudioSource pre-amps are pretty mediocre).

I have a 2nd NAD 3140 that if I can get up and running again might steal first place though, I paid $14 at a pawn shop for it...it needs a new cap and a power switch (I hope that's it)...my other 3140 was inherited from my Dad and has been singing for over 20 years!

[wfontenot]

Thanks for your input. I was looking at the AudioSource equipment last night and I sort of like the retro look. Reminds me of the amps of the 70s.

My 535 sounds fine, but it is always fun to look for new equipment. The 535 nor my GTP400 pre have ever let me down and both have been punished. Also, both pieces of equipment are over 10 years old. I just remember my buddy had an NAD integrated amp and I like the sound. It was not as bright and punchy as my adcom. The punchyness could have been contributed to the Boston Acoustics I was running at the time.

I have thought of purchasing a 555II, but concerned it is too much power for my Studio 40s. I do not even use all of the 535 I currently own. But the 555II seems like a great amp for the money.

Maybe it is time for DIY tube project?

[kexodusc]

If you've got room left on your 535 (as I suspect you do because I have Studio 40's too), the 555 is super overkill.
I like NAD gear, but over the past few years the quality control seems to be very hit and miss.
The old 3020's and 3140 integrateds can be had cheap on ebay or audiogon and are excellent sounding units.
Though I seriously doubt they'll be any better than your Adcom stuff, just a bit different.
As for a DIY tube project...go to town, someday I'll try one, until then I've got a long list of speakers projects to finish.

[mjhloomans]

Hi!

I managed to get a great deal on the AudioSource: S$185 (US$110) and thats because I didn't have any more left on my bank account. Completely broke but at least I have a new amp. :D

Kexodusc, how to open the Amp One without breaking the seal on the casing? I really want to have a look inside but don't want to void my 1 year warrenty you see... The powercord I was also planning of changing one day, not for audible differences but just because there is a funky plug on it now.

The auto power feature should not be that difficult as the Amp One already has like a standby mode. The moment you switch it on, the lights are dim and de output relay off, then after a while, the lights light up and de output relay goes on. For an auto on feature there should be an additional requirement to go to full on mode, and that is some input. And after the input is gone, switch back to the standby mode.

May I also ask why you don't like to directly plug your CD player in the amp? It is the most accurate sound reproduction I would think. No additional signal paths and noise, distortion etc..

Regards,
:D Marijn