Speaker cables - what do you use...?

[LVMF]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

[TerryB]

Nordost SPM. My criteria was that it had to be flat, to go under the carpet. So my choices were Nordost or Townshend Isolda. I never heard Isolda as the dealer couldn't find me a pair long enough, so it was Nordost or Nordost!

Fortunately, that's not such a bad dilemma, as i'd been using Flatline Gold on my first system, and then Blue Heaven on my first upgrade. But once i'd bought my Chord amps, and the lounge needed re-carpeting, i took the opportunity to upgrade the speaker cable too.

Red Dawn was nice, but not significantly different to Blue Heaven, in my opinion. Slightly leaner in the bass if anything. With SPM, it was night and day difference, especially in the soundstage department. I didn't audition Valhalla, as i knew i couldn't afford it! But no regrets at all. It's expensive, but does exactly what it says on the engraved wooden presentation box!


As for bi-wiring - some people will tell you it's vital, others like myself will tell you that the difference is subtle. Like all thse things - try it and see what you think. What i personally do is use separate connectors at the speaker end, which are then joined at the amp end. Then you get the benefit of double the cable capacity. That's what Nordost recommend, in any case.


Terry

[theaudiohobby]

Go to your local electronics supplies store and buy good quality OFC speaker wire between 12 - 16 ga( 10 ga is a bit large), audible differences connecting the tweeters and bass drivers to the amplifier individually or jointly with jumper wire is totally dependent on speaker design and there are no hard and fast rules, so experiment if you can afford it. Forget about ultra expensive wire, the money is better spent elsewhere.

[TerryB]

Don't agree theaudiohobby - it depends what standard the source components are. I could demonstate to you without a *shadow* of a doubt the difference on my system between a cheap speaker cable and a quality one. Beyond a certain point it becomes a matter of taste - granted, but don't hold a good system back by assuming speaker cable just has to "be" there, regardless of quality...

[BRANDONH]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.
I use 10 guage Sound King.
Was using Radio Shack 12 Guage.
I could not tell much If any difference but needed the 10 guage for High Power Amp.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3&manufacturer=195&cat_id=56

[Woochifer]

Speaker cables are the least variable part of any audio system. Compared to other parts of an audio system, the speakers and the room acoustics are the areas that vary the most and need to be accounted for first. Then you worry about the amplification and front end sources. So long as you're using something better than high gauge generic speaker wires or those molded plastic OEM interconnects, you're fine.

Anybody who tells you that they can detect obvious differences between cables is hearing them under sighted conditions where the placebo effect can have a huge influence. How else do you explain informal tests (done by Dunlavy and McIntosh during product demos) that showed the large majority of listeners claiming that they could hear clear differences between cables, when in fact the cables had NOT been switched out. Under blind conditions, I could only identify very slight differences between cables -- hardly a magnitude of change that justifies that ridiculously high prices charged for some of these cables.

The money spent on and time obsessing over speaker cables would be far better invested in getting to know the acoustical conditions of your room, and making any necessary corrections. Room treatments make very noticeable differences that can be verified with simple measurements. The same cannot be said for cables.

[topspeed]

I have Marsh Sound Labs, but I bought that when it was more important for me to listen to other's people's opinions instead of my own ears. If I were to do it all over again, I'd just get some 12 gauge outdoor extension cord from Home Depot and be done with it. You might check out issue 147 of TAS about 6 or 8 months ago. They did a wire shoot-out and Paul Seydor plainly stated that if he were asked to tell the difference between the wires in a blind situation, without previously determining any characteristics inherent in each design, he probably would not be able to. He also noted that the level of concentration required to tell the difference was completely counterproductive to the actual enjoyment of music, which is what this hobby is really about, right?

Personally, I think room treatments will yield a far greater benefit at far less cost than any fancy wire could possibly hope to. Just my opinion, ymmv.

[46minaudio]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.
http://sandobargainhunters.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=104&osCsid=329e7ead51d24c365b8368d19ef524de

[LVMF]

My speaker manufacturer suggests bi-wiring is best; the speaker wire I'm using has banana clips on the end...ANY SUGGESTIONS to modify for bi-wiring. My speakers, Reference 3A De Capo's DO NOT have a crossover, so I guess that's why they suggest bi-wiring.

[drseid]

I use DH Labs T-14 speaker cables...

That said, I bought them mainly because it was inexpensive and they had banana plugs placed on the ends for easy hookup to my speakers and amps. I tend to fall in the "wire is wire" camp, for the most part. I doubt I would really be able to tell what wire was hooked up to my system in a double-blind listening test... and I believe I have a relatively revealing system.

---Dave

[Pat D]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.
The last cable I got was 16 gauge speaker cable I bought at Canadian Tire. I had been using 22 feet of 12 gauge Angstrom speaker wire for some years but we rearranged the room and got an equipment cabinet so I didn't need that much. Well, 12 gauge is hard to work with and if I cut it up, I wouldn't have the longer length for future, so I cut a couple of about 10 foot pieces of the 16 gauge wire. For Christmas, we rearranged the room to fit the tree in and moved the speakers so that one is farther from the amp than the other. Well, since I already had an appropriate length wire on hand, I put one of the 12 gauge cables on the left channel.

In sum, we now have 10 feet of 16 gauge wire on the left channel and 22 feet of 12 gauge wire on the right channel. Does any of this make any difference to the sound? Nothing audible, not with large enough wire of those kinds of lengths.

[topspeed]

My speaker manufacturer suggests bi-wiring is best; the speaker wire I'm using has banana clips on the end...ANY SUGGESTIONS to modify for bi-wiring. My speakers, Reference 3A De Capo's DO NOT have a crossover, so I guess that's why they suggest bi-wiring.
You can't modify your existing wire. You'll need to either run another length of wire or get dedicated bi-wire. If you don't want to run two lengths of HD cable, these cables (http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=DMAQT410C) aren't very expensive and should do the trick.

Hope this helps.

[Geoffcin]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

And yes they sound different!

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=8927

[stratman672001]

And yes they sound different!

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=8927

Only in certain circumstances. Other than that... No they don't (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow)

[Geoffcin]

Only in certain circumstances. Other than that... No they don't (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow)


Don't assume anyone else's opinion is false, or yours is any more valid.

[stratman672001]

Don't assume anyone else's opinion is false, or yours is any more valid.
Obviously you didn't click on the link.

[Geoffcin]

Obviously you didn't click on the link.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=10&pagestring=Measuring+Cable+Resonance

Please don't post any more off topic replys to this thread.

[TerryB]

Anybody who tells you that they can detect obvious differences between cables is hearing them under sighted conditions where the placebo effect can have a huge influence.


Sorry, but utter, utter, UTTER rubbish. Complete nonsense. But then, if you can get away with cheaper cables and be happy with them, then you've saved yourself a whole bunch of money i guess. The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me - the above assertion the latest in a long line! I will *guarantee* that i could demonstrate the difference to you, blindfold on or not. I *wanted* to prefer the cheaper cables, believe me!!

Terry

[theaudiohobby]

Sorry, but utter, utter, UTTER rubbish. Complete nonsense. But then, if you can get away with cheaper cables and be happy with them, then you've saved yourself a whole bunch of money i guess. The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me - the above assertion the latest in a long line! I will *guarantee* that i could demonstrate the difference to you, blindfold on or not. I *wanted* to prefer the cheaper cables, believe me!!

Terry

I think it is time to move to Audio Lab or Cables and join some of the ongoing debates over there :p. Was your cable prerference test blind or sighted? Well thought out room acoustics treatments are absolutely more effective than exercizing one's self over different cables and sometimes it is also cheaper. For me, speaker cables and interconnects are permanently off my upgrade list, check out my system, the basic components are no slouches.

[46minaudio]

Sorry, but utter, utter, UTTER rubbish. Complete nonsense. But then, if you can get away with cheaper cables and be happy with them, then you've saved yourself a whole bunch of money i guess. The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me - the above assertion the latest in a long line! I will *guarantee* that i could demonstrate the difference to you, blindfold on or not. I *wanted* to prefer the cheaper cables, believe me!!

Terry
Then you would be the first..(unless the cable has a device built into it that alters the sound).

The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me -.
I agree, your above post does just that.

[dean_martin]

I use DH Labs T-14 speaker cables...



me, too.

[Woochifer]

Sorry, but utter, utter, UTTER rubbish. Complete nonsense. But then, if you can get away with cheaper cables and be happy with them, then you've saved yourself a whole bunch of money i guess. The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me - the above assertion the latest in a long line! I will *guarantee* that i could demonstrate the difference to you, blindfold on or not. I *wanted* to prefer the cheaper cables, believe me!!

Sounds to me like you've yet to actually do a blind listening. Save your guarantee for when you can verify these beyond a "shadow of a doubt" differences under blind conditions. I'll believe you when you can consistently pick out the cables without knowing beforehand which sets were attached.

I've done enough blind trials to know how much the magnitude of difference shrinks when you don't have sight biases leading the way. Under blind conditions, the differences that I've observed are so laughably small that it's hardly worth the trouble. With the amount of money that people can waste on exotic cabling, they can make far more significant real world improvements by hiring an acoustician (or buying a microphone and RTA software) and installing room treatments. Dealing with room acoustics makes improvements that are clearly audible AND verifiable via simple measurements. Talk to me when you can make that claim about cables.

And I notice that you clipped the rest of that paragraph. Convenient of you to dodge the points I brought up with McIntosh and Dunlavy's informal tests. They actually set up demo rooms with a set of generic speaker wires and pretended to switch out the cables to larger more formidable looking cables. Nearly 3 out of 4 listeners claimed to hear an improvement with the "improved cables", when in fact, the listenings were identical. How do you explain that?

The amusing thing about audio is when people want to believe in cable claims that have little to no scientific basis, and ignore room acoustical effects that are scientifically verifiable and clearly audible.

[Geoffcin]

There were some specific questions asked in the opening post of this thread. Unless your answer is specifically for THOSE questions please refrain from posting. This is not the forum, or the thread to get into a debate on DBT, or start calling anyone tone deaf.

[markw]

I would have expected the tweeters to have blown out by now by not having bass blocked from them. They must be pretty rugged critters.

[theaudiohobby]

My speaker manufacturer suggests bi-wiring is best; the speaker wire I'm using has banana clips on the end...ANY SUGGESTIONS to modify for bi-wiring. My speakers, Reference 3A De Capo's DO NOT have a crossover, so I guess that's why they suggest bi-wiring.

The De capo does have a crossover to protect the tweeter, minimal crossover is the word they use, but it is still a crossover circuit.

[TerryB]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

[drseid]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry
Start dropping your jaw Terry... ;-)

---Dave

[risabet]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

Audioquest Indigo in a shotgunned configuration. I am considering auditioning the PS Audio Statement cables and the Audioquest Earth Feature series, specifically the Pike's Peak and Mont Blanc models.

[Woochifer]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

No, you just stumbled upon a group of posters who prefer value for what they invest in their systems.


Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

You can repeat all you want. I've done enough cable listenings to come to my own conclusions about the value of speaker cable upgrades relative to other system upgrades -- pretty much near the bottom of the priority list.

No need for blindfolds, just an honest listening where you don't know what you're listening to in advance. You don't even need elaborate testing equipment, just someone in the back of the system swapping out the cable pairs at random. I've done cable comparisons under both sighted and blind conditions, so I'm aware of how the magnitude of "difference" changes when you don't see the brand or look of the cable before listening. That's what McIntosh and Dunlavy confirmed in their demos.


I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

If you're going to base your belief system around sighted listenings, then you need to be aware that people who take you up on your *guarantee* might demand a more rigorous and reliable comparison than a simple show-and-tell session. And they might ask you to make your case first without the sight biases to assist you.

My views on cables have been reinforced through my own listenings and measurements over the past 20+ years. I've done my own foolery with friends before where I pretended to switch out a component or cable, and have them gush over how much "improvement" they heard when in fact I had not changed a thing. This type of placebo effect is not just someone else's findings, it's what I've observed as well.

In recommending system upgrades, I prefer to focus on areas that provide the most real world improvement for the amount spent. Expensive speaker cables IMO represent the exact inverse of that price/value equation.


Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Never said that they don't make a difference, only that the differences are too small to be worth a damn.

[NoMSG]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

People who go for the 12 gauge oxygen-free zip cords report not being to hear an noticeable difference AND cite to objective listening tests in support of this.

The supporters of pricey cables always rely on anectdotal evidence: "I can tell the difference...really!" Even in medicine, the placebo effect is well documented. Why do these supporters believe they alone are exempt from this principle?

[kfalls]

I agree paying megabucks for speaker wires is silly, but I don't agree all wires sound the same. I've tried many wires, zip cords, semi-rigid solid-core, 12ga & 10ga Monster and even tried combining multiple strands of CAT5 and did hear differences. I currently use AudioQuest GR8 SST cables in my main Home Theater system. Not so much for their sonic capabilities, but because of their build quality, asthetics and price. I found them in a Stereophile advertisement @ $99/12' pair. The conductors are equivalent to 9ga, have quality terminations and an exterior woven sheath (in a variety of colors, makes it easy to color code channels).

I have them connected to Legacy Focus mains and Legacy Silver Screen center. The Focus are bi-amped, with the GR8s connected to the high/mid and 12ga Aperture cable connected between a Yamaha M-65 (170W) amp to the 3 12" woofers/ch. The center is connected via single GR8 and the rears have 35' runs of 12ga Aperture connecting my T&A P-30 3-way rears. I'm driving the 5 HT channels with a Denon AVR-3300.

As far as sound is concerned I have no complaints. I use my system mainly for HT (75%) and the sound is detailed, dynamic and imaging right on. I also listen to music with my universal Pioneer DVD (SACD and DVD-Audio sounds pretty awesome).

Is there real value in manufactured cables? I believe so, moreso for their build quality, asthetics and endurance. Will buying $1000/ch wires make my system sound $5000 better? I don't think so. The curve on diminishing returns is pretty steep. There are just too many links in the chain. I'd go broke upgrading my system to take advantage of any sonic improvements real or perceived. As with all other choices in life, common sense goes a long way.

[Vardo]

I personally can't tell the difference between 16ga zip cord or 10ga. I do
think that there are possibly differences between cables due to their construction. When I bought my Mirage M5 speakers years ago, the salesman
offered to sell me a pair of Audioquest cables at his cost. They were the diameter of garden hoses. I took them home and gave them a try, and I
thought I heard a slight difference comparing them to the 16ga wire. Problem
was I didn't care for the difference....I liked the 16ga wire better.
Also alot of the differences people hear are do to physiological factors.
The cable are bigger, look cool, etc...so they must sound better.
If you can hear an improvement in sound due to the cables your using, then
that's great......personally I just use 14 to 16ga wire and it works for me....vardo

[thepogue]

I bought them used for 300...

they look cool and they sound great...I'm not sure if they sound great cuz they look cool...or if they are cool cuz they sound great...or they are great cuz they are cool...or they are great-cool cuz they were used and cheap for not-so-cheap-cool cables...or...ahhhh...never mind

I like'em and they impress my friends...even the blind ones!!


Peace, Pogue

[jecker]

Audioquest Indigo in a shotgunned configuration. I am considering auditioning the PS Audio Statement cables and the Audioquest Earth Feature series, specifically the Pike's Peak and Mont Blanc models.

I picked up some Pikes Peak for $500.00 They sound very natural but bit bass heavy or just more colored than the rest. Perhaps more was getting through than what I was used to. Turning down the bass tone fixed it. They need to be fully off the floor or the whole sound is muddy muffled.

[markw]

They need to be fully off the floor or the whole sound is muddy muffled.I just love this line.

[JohnMichael]

In my sytem I use Alpha Core MI Center Stage speaker cables that cost about $129 when I purchased them several years ago. I am currently using 2 pair of Alpha Core Micro Purl for cd to int. amp and phono preamp to int. amp and they cost about $89 a pair. I also own cables by Audioquest, Dayton(partsexpress),Monster, Nordost and Tara Labs. Yes Virginia they all sound different. When I was using the old Sony ES cdp the Nordost Black Knights sounded best but with the Sony changer/recorder the Micro Purls are better. The Alpha Cores are my favorites and work well in my system. Each one of us are more or less sensitive to different aspects of music reproduction. I am able to hear differences in cables while someone else might have perfect pitch and be bothered if my Rega TT runs a little fast. If you are not sensitive to differences in cables that is great for you. It will save you money. If you are you may make some poor choices until you find the cables that work best for you. I never tell anyone they do not hear something they do and I will not listen to anyone who tells me I can not hear something I can.

[iSteal]

I totally agree with Woochifer. You just need a cable with good insulation and good quality copper/silver and you're set to go. You don't have to pay thousands of $ to get quality sound or better - just different. I would say that room acoustics, speaker placement and source should be your 1st priority. But I'll be honest with you. I would never use a "standard" speaker wire from my local dealer - no matter how good it is for the price. It's a psychological effect.

I use a pair of Kimber 8 TC

[jtgofish]

I totally agree with Woochifer. You just need a cable with good insulation and good quality copper/silver and you're set to go. You don't have to pay thousands of $ to get quality sound or better - just different. I would say that room acoustics, speaker placement and source should be your 1st priority. But I'll be honest with you. I would never use a "standard" speaker wire from my local dealer - no matter how good it is for the price. It's a psychological effect.

I use a pair of Kimber 8 TC

This is a really good topic.I think there are good and bad sounding cables but always within the context of your own system and room.Differences between interconnects seem to be greater than those between speaker cables,but the differences are still there.
For me solid core copper cables sound much better than stranded.Axon and Kimber are examples of this but solid core lighting cable that costs $1 per metre probably sounds just as good.I know people with fantastic sounding systems that use this cable and I have heard other systems that use thousands of dollars of cables that sound terrible.
As far as blindfold listening goes Hi Fi Choice magazine did group blinfold reviewing of products for years and consistently found signifigant sonic differences between cables and rated them accordingly.

JT

[musicoverall]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

I purchased off the secondary market and got them for about half the retail price of a grand.

I auditioned several and actually preferred the Nordost Valhalla but couldn't afford them. I'm not sure how things are at the moment but a year ago, nobody was selling their Valhallas! I heard why. The improvements with the Cardas over the others I auditioned but didn't choose were subtle but musically significant. It wasn't like replacing speakers or electronics, of course, but it was well worth the money I spent.

I currently do not biwire although I have in the past and noticed a very subtle improvement with the speakers I owned at the time.

[musicoverall]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

When I was a newcomer to this site, I too was surprised that there was even a debate! After researching a little further, it seems this debate is about 25 years old. That fact hints at the idea that there really is no absolute answer. I respect the opinions of those that claim there are no differences or that those differences aren't worth it - I simply disagree.

While I was auditioning Nordost, there was one higher level model that I did not audition and I think it was the SPM. However, the Red Dawn did not exhibit the same sonic characteristics that the Valhalla did in my system. I tried to capture that sound as close as possible without spending that kind of cash and I was surprised that the rest of the line I auditioned was so different. Most brands have a signature sound throughout their line but Valhalla truly appears to be a breakthrough product.

How do you like the SPM? I couldn't find any used so wasn't able to audition it. It's certainly nicer to look at than the Cardas Neutral Reference I bought!

[GMichael]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

I like the SoundKing 12ga. But I don't think that PartsExpress is selling it anymore. Still partsexpress.com has other good brands. Try their link.
The debate over speaker wire is an old one. There are some very inteligent people on both sides of the fence. I have found a difference between the 22ga that comes with most HT in a box systems and 16ga. Not such a difference from 16 to 12ga but the price wasn't much more so what the heck.
I'd say that you have to use a little sense. If you have a $40,000 system, then why cheap out on the wire and get a $20 roll of 18ga.? On the other hand, if you have a $500 system, then why spend $5000 on wire? Maybe 5 to 10% of what you spent on your system is good for wire.

Bi-wiring is a whole nother debate.

[JoeE SP9]

When I was a newcomer to this site, I too was surprised that there was even a debate! After researching a little further, it seems this debate is about 25 years old. That fact hints at the idea that there really is no absolute answer. I respect the opinions of those that claim there are no differences or that those differences aren't worth it - I simply disagree.

While I was auditioning Nordost, there was one higher level model that I did not audition and I think it was the SPM. However, the Red Dawn did not exhibit the same sonic characteristics that the Valhalla did in my system. I tried to capture that sound as close as possible without spending that kind of cash and I was surprised that the rest of the line I auditioned was so different. Most brands have a signature sound throughout their line but Valhalla truly appears to be a breakthrough product.

How do you like the SPM? I couldn't find any used so wasn't able to audition it. It's certainly nicer to look at than the Cardas Neutral Reference I bought!
About six years ago I got a buddy interested in this hobby. Just after upgrading to his present MG 3.3 r's he called me and told me he was replacing several of his cables because he didn't like the way they sounded. His wife had come into his listening room and told him his system sounded flat. He replaced 2 cables that he didn't like and he, I and his wife heard an improvement.
I used to think I knew it all. ie: "All wires and cables sound alike. All properly working electronics sound alike" As I've gotten older my mind has opened and I listen to the music instead of others opinions. I think all wires and cables speaker and otherwise can sound different. This also includes all electronics. It is the amount of difference and its' importance to you that matters. My own speaker cables are the full bore CAT-5 Ultra. They needed a substantial break in (50+ hrs) before they sounded right.
My first wife could hear when I changed amplifiers at the front door. She would come into my listening room and say things like "Please put the old amp back. The new one sounds harsh." http://forums.audioreview.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[musicoverall]

I listen to the music instead of others opinions. ]

That's it in a nutshell. Opinions, mine included, are pretty useless to anyone but those having them. My advice to anyone is listen for yourself, have an open mind, and go with what you hear... or don't hear. Other opinions and theories just confuse the issue.

[Bernd]

I agree with that sentiment. It took me just over six months of comparing cables to find what works for me with my electronics and my music in my room.
So nobody else could advice me. I tried many and ended up with Cardas Golden Reference IC and Speakercables and Kimber PK 10 and PK 14 Palladian Power cords.And yes I did blind listening tests (a friend swapped cables for me).
It's also true that this not inconsiderable expense would be false economy on a budget set up.

Bernd

[Pat D]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.
Currently I use 16 gauge speaker wire about 10 feet long purchased at the nearest Canadian Tire store. The price was about $15 for 50 feet, but I think the price has gone up.

I had used some old Angstrom 12 gauge speaker cable about 23 feet long. I didn't want to cut it up in case I need the longer length in the future. 16 gauge is more than adequate for the short length involved and is much easier to work with. But I have nothing against overkill and would have gotten 14 guage had I found some.

I did not notice any difference in the sound that I would attribute to the speaker cables. The change in placement made a difference, of course.

As for your last question, no, I do not buywire.

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase ?

DIY 24awg (5n) 99.999% pure silver wire encased in 20awg teflon. It cost $65 for 10' pair. I purchased the raw silver off Ebay and the teflon from Michael Percy Audio.


Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

I used the Silverline Audio [copper] cables for a few years with my Silverline Sonatina's. Of course, I'd sampled a number of different cables in my system over the years.


How much different of a sound DID they make?

Excellent results but not a "big" difference. The small gauge solid silver seemed to work better with my SET amp that also was wired internally with small gauge solid silver wire. I also use silver digital links. Much like the benefit realized from SET amplification, specifically with 45s, the silver wire only embellishes that experience, further "opening up" the sound while uncovering more information and presenting that with greater ease. The soundstage blossomed while the presentation became less forward, though more deeply layered. The silver wire was more transparent whereas the Silverline cables signature was more obvious. Overall the silver wire was more "complex" or more accurately allowed the complexity of the music to be heard more easily rather than the delivery technology. And for the money an excellent upgrade! [they cost less than a 1/4 of the price of the Silverlines]. The Silverline cables actually didn't cost me anything because they were included in the price of the Sonatina's. They were terminated with spades while the DIY "cables" were just bare wire to the binding posts.


...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

I played around with the Silverline cables on the bottom posts and the silver wire on top but ended up with just running the silver wire through both bottom and top posts - sans jumper cables. It's the cleanest connection. I never found that bi-wire made much of a difference in the applications I'm familiar.

[Resident Loser]

...50ft/ch of 10ga. jacketed sound re-enforcement(P.A.) wiring...and no, my speakers aren't 100ft apart...(just pre-empting the remarks from the usual suspects)...my gear is in another room...

Before that I had tried a pair of Polk Cobra's...this was some time ago mind you...they may have caused my integrated to go south in a puff of acrid, green smoke due to capacitance loading...at least that's a best guess...'til that point, there was no discernible sonic diff IMO...afterward, just a shop bill...

Before that probably some 12-14ga generic zip...

Remember, difference is just that and nothing more...very subjective AND anecdotal in nature...

Wire is passive...it can "boost" one segment of the frequency spectrum only by attenuating another...it's all relative...


jimHJJ[...therefore, wire is wire...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence (which is subject to a vast array of potential biases) that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge.;-p...]

[Resident Loser]

I just love this line.

jimHJJ(...and $400 wooden volume knobs...)

[LeoRousseau]

All wires are NOT created equal....... About 7 years ago when I was into audio there was and still is a high end audio shop within 10 miles from me and I used to frequent the place.... I bought a nice pair of PSB Images from them and a pair of Celestions from them when Celestions were good.... They let me take home to try out about 4 different pairs of high end speaker cables like Goertz,MIT's, XLO's and a couple others and I noticed a big difference when changing to a certain one.... It really can change the depth or the warmth of the music depending on the wire.... Now one wire that sounds awesome on a certain speaker might not sound awesome on another speaker.....

[superpanavision70mm]

http://http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.avguide.com/servlet/com.absolutemultimedia.servlets.DownloadLargeProdu ctImage%3Fproduct%3D2847&imgrefurl=http://www.avguide.com/accessories/speaker_cables/ps_audio/xstream_statement/2847.jsp&h=200&w=230&sz=12&tbnid=54ecPLJEXfiXBM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=103&hl=en&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522ps%2Baudio%2Bxstream%2522%26svnu m%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3 Den%26sa%3DN


I have been using the PS Audio xstreams for about 1 month and they are awesome. Not only do they 'look' serious, but they also 'sound' serious. I have heard other mixed reviews, but quite honestly it also has to do with your speaker and components because these suckers really do sound good with the right combination of gear.

[jrhymeammo]

Here is a thought. Stop listening to music while you are cooking, browsing on the net, and reading cuz you are not goning be able to hear great difference!!!! If music is just background noise to you that is fine with everybody, just dont act like all the cables sound same, say simialr if you must. It is different than stating certain gear sounds digital while we all hear in analogue. That's just one's nuance. But stating all cables sound the same is something I cannot do. Too all the skpetics out there, coughup $1.50/ft and get yourself KWIK 12 by Kimber Kable and $0.50/ft copper wire at a local hardware store and hear the difference. I believe KWIK is the best cable for money for me.

[FLZapped]

Here is a thought. Stop listening to music while you are cooking, browsing on the net, and reading cuz you are not goning be able to hear great difference!!!! If music is just background noise to you that is fine with everybody, just dont act like all the cables sound same, say simialr if you must. It is different than stating certain gear sounds digital while we all hear in analogue. That's just one's nuance. But stating all cables sound the same is something I cannot do. Too all the skpetics out there, coughup $1.50/ft and get yourself KWIK 12 by Kimber Kable and $0.50/ft copper wire at a local hardware store and hear the difference.

Here is a thought, take some time to learn about human perception and what influences it.


I believe KWIK is the best cable for money for me.

That's good for you.

-Bruce

[jrhymeammo]

Here is a thought, take some time to learn about human perception and what influences it.

-Bruce

What are you talking about. Go remove your towel from your equipment, take a shower, wakeup, then explain this to me with few more words.

[musicoverall]

What are you talking about. Go remove your towel from your equipment, take a shower, wakeup, then explain this to me with few more words.

Some people believe that all cables sound identical unless the cable has been purposefully made to sound different i.e not neutral. They believe zip cord is perfectly neutral and passes all the information and that the differences we hear are imagined. As far as they know, no one has successfully picked out two cables of normal guage in a DBT as being different. Therefore, they conclude that we are deluding ourselves.

It's an argument that goes back to the late 1970's, as far as I've been able to discover. The very fact that we're still arguing about it 25 years later with a very small percentage of people changing their stance, tells me that it may never be resolved. You see, the "burden of proof" is on the claimant... meaning that we who have heard sonic differences in cables must prove to them that we have heard them using the one and only methodology they trust = DBT. They don't have to prove a thing. Then again, neither do you or I, except to ourselves.

Enjoy each and every piece of your audio system and don't worry so much about other people's belief system. Believe me, nothing you do will change their minds.

[jrhymeammo]

Some people believe that all cables sound identical unless the cable has been purposefully made to sound different i.e not neutral. They believe zip cord is perfectly neutral and passes all the information and that the differences we hear are imagined. As far as they know, no one has successfully picked out two cables of normal guage in a DBT as being different. Therefore, they conclude that we are deluding ourselves.

It's an argument that goes back to the late 1970's, as far as I've been able to discover. The very fact that we're still arguing about it 25 years later with a very small percentage of people changing their stance, tells me that it may never be resolved. You see, the "burden of proof" is on the claimant... meaning that we who have heard sonic differences in cables must prove to them that we have heard them using the one and only methodology they trust = DBT. They don't have to prove a thing. Then again, neither do you or I, except to ourselves.

Enjoy each and every piece of your audio system and don't worry so much about other people's belief system. Believe me, nothing you do will change their minds.

Thanks musicoverall. I usually try my best to stay away from cable discussion, but I couldnt help myself this time. Then again this is why AR can be more entertaining thatn others, but I prefer not to waste my time. Peace

[superpanavision70mm]

Cable debate is not unlike any other debate in life when it comes to each persons experience and perspective on issues of quality. Some people believe that premium gasoline makes your car run better than the cheap stuff (none of it's cheap these days though), while others believe that it all comes from the same place and it's a big scandal. Some people believe that bottled water tastes better than from the tap, while others think that it's yet another scandal and that bottled water is no better for you or no different in taste. Some people buy Nike shoes for a over $100 and say that they feel better on their feet than the $50 alternative brands. Other times people just pay huge sums of money for something that is just ...well, more pleasing to them...like Oakley sunglasses that cost a few hundred dollars. Maybe that block out more UV, maybe they last longer, maybe this and maybe that...whatever the case...people usually buy them because of the name and the style.

Cables are no different in most cases. However, for those that want to spend their hard--earned cash...go for it! I know I have spent a great deal of money on my cables, but not nearly as much as some. However, I can also tell a difference with what I use versus buying cheaper stuff. If you think that we are stupid for spending so much money on cables....too bad! Chances are you are not able to hear the difference for a variety of reasons....either your equipment is incapable of discerning the difference...your ears are unable to detect the difference, or your equipment is not calibrated (or room) in order to tell a difference.

In the meantime...the debate will continue as always and I suppose it's entertainment value for some.

[musicoverall]

Chances are you are not able to hear the difference for a variety of reasons....either your equipment is incapable of discerning the difference...your ears are unable to detect the difference, or your equipment is not calibrated (or room) in order to tell a difference.

In the meantime...the debate will continue as always and I suppose it's entertainment value for some.

I don't disagree with the reasons you cited but IMHO the biggest reason is that some people are biased against hearing these differences. Science books tell them they shouldn't be able to and their ear/brain interface simply shuts down as a result. If a listener believes it is possible that differences might exist, they may be heard if they are present. If a listener closes his mind, there's no way they'll hear anything.

Then again, not all cables sound different to me, either. In fact, based on my own auditions, I detected differences in only about a third of the cables I tested. Some of them sounded no more highly defined than simple zip cord. Newbies should be aware that certain cables interact differently in different systems.

[superpanavision70mm]

Yes, you are right! Not all cables do make the difference, but those that argue that NO cable can make a difference is obviously more closed minded than one could fathom.

[FLZapped]

What are you talking about. Go remove your towel from your equipment, take a shower, wakeup, then explain this to me with few more words.

One: No towel needed; Two: I am awake; Three: get an education.

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

Science books tell them they shouldn't be able to and their ear/brain interface simply shuts down as a result.


Please show me any viable reference that says this happens, or any "science book" that makes that claim.

-Bruce

[musicoverall]

Please show me any viable reference that says this happens, or any "science book" that makes that claim.

-Bruce

Any reference that states the claim that no sonic differences exist between, say, two different runs of 16 awg wire? You can start with the Roger Russell link that people around here are so fond of. From there, take your pick.

[FLZapped]

Any reference that states the claim that no sonic differences exist between, say, two different runs of 16 awg wire? You can start with the Roger Russell link that people around here are so fond of. From there, take your pick.


Should have been more clear, sorry:

1) Viable reference that says the ear/bran interface shuts down

2) A "Science Book" that makes the claim differences can't be heard.

[noddin0ff]

Cable debate is not unlike any other debate in life when it comes to each persons experience and perspective on issues of quality. Some people believe that premium gasoline makes your car run better than the cheap stuff (none of it's cheap these days though), while others believe that it all comes from the same place and it's a big scandal. Some people believe that bottled water tastes better than from the tap, while others think that it's yet another scandal and that bottled water is no better for you or no different in taste. Some people buy Nike shoes for a over $100 and say that they feel better on their feet than the $50 alternative brands. Other times people just pay huge sums of money for something that is just ...well, more pleasing to them...like Oakley sunglasses that cost a few hundred dollars. Maybe that block out more UV, maybe they last longer, maybe this and maybe that...whatever the case...people usually buy them because of the name and the style.

Cables are no different in most cases. However, for those that want to spend their hard--earned cash...go for it! I know I have spent a great deal of money on my cables, but not nearly as much as some. However, I can also tell a difference with what I use versus buying cheaper stuff. If you think that we are stupid for spending so much money on cables....too bad! Chances are you are not able to hear the difference for a variety of reasons....either your equipment is incapable of discerning the difference...your ears are unable to detect the difference, or your equipment is not calibrated (or room) in order to tell a difference.

In the meantime...the debate will continue as always and I suppose it's entertainment value for some.

Well, I think you’re argument is going a bit far. In most the ‘debatable’ examples you listed there are very measurable differences that clearly contribute to performance. The differences are large enough to be easily perceptible. Expensive gas/Cheap gas, tap/bottle water, Nike/other shoes…Preference is arbitrary; the difference is clear, people differ on what they prefer.

Cables on the other hand have little to no measurable differences in performance. The differences, if any, fall way below what would be considered readily perceptible. The differences, if any, are so slight that subjective bias becomes the dominant factor for ‘preferring’ one over the other.

[Resident Loser]

What are you talking about. Go remove your towel from your equipment, take a shower, wakeup, then explain this to me with few more words.

...from someone who decided to participate in a thread that went dormant in March '05 and should have been allowed to RIP February '06?

jimHJJ[...wire is wire...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence (which is subject to a vast array of potential biases) that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge.;-p...]

[musicoverall]

Should have been more clear, sorry:

1) Viable reference that says the ear/bran interface shuts down

2) A "Science Book" that makes the claim differences can't be heard.

Oh, that! Those comments were quite honestly based on various posts I've read from the so-called "objectivists" over the year or so I've been on this board. Actually, the first one was speculative based on my idea of why certain people can't/don't pick up differences in components/wire. Not too many objectivists have much experience with comparing components or, if they do, they refuse to share what, citing that it's irrelevant. It's *extremely* relevant - but that's another story!

The second I can easily support with the Roger Russell example, among many other references that are available as links to posts within the archives here at A/R. I could state it as "It's what I've learned from you"... "you" being the collective for folks on A/R with your POV.

Hey Bruce, are you by any chance Bruce Coppola with the website that I unsuccessfully attempted to peruse during a discussion of amp sound? For some reason, I could never open the link and I'm told the article on amps is a good one with (gasp) actual system details! I understand if you'd rather not say but if you don't mind saying so and if you indeed are Mr Coppola, is there any chance of that link being downloaded into some other format so I can read it? I apologize in advance for my lack of computer terrain navigational skills! :)

[musicoverall]

...from someone who decided to participate in a thread that went dormant in March '05 and should have been allowed to RIP February '06?

jimHJJ[...wire is wire...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence (which is subject to a vast array of potential biases) that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge.;-p...]

Sometimes I have some spare time when these things come up and instead of fanning the fire, I should just learn to keep my mouth shut! Er... my fingers limp?

On another note, today is a good day at work! I'm caught up, the boss is gone and Iggy and the Stooges "Funhouse" is playing on my computer. :)

[Audie Oghaisle]

Takes a look,

Sniffs around and then exclaims:

Ye Gods, on the grave of Robbie Burns,

Some things will NEVER change!

Audie

[FLZapped]

Oh, that! Those comments were quite honestly based on various posts I've read from the so-called "objectivists" over the year or so I've been on this board. Actually, the first one was speculative based on my idea of why certain people can't/don't pick up differences in components/wire. Not too many objectivists have much experience with comparing components or, if they do, they refuse to share what, citing that it's irrelevant. It's *extremely* relevant - but that's another story!

OK, but I can't say I ever remember anyone actually saying that, so if you have a link.....



The second I can easily support with the Roger Russell example, among many other references that are available as links to posts within the archives here at A/R. I could state it as "It's what I've learned from you"... "you" being the collective for folks on A/R with your POV.

Hardly qualifies as a science book.....been a while since I've even been to that website....actually, I can't remember the last time, but it can be measured in years.



Hey Bruce, are you by any chance Bruce Coppola with the website that I unsuccessfully attempted to peruse during a discussion of amp sound? For some reason, I could never open the link and I'm told the article on amps is a good one with (gasp) actual system details! I understand if you'd rather not say but if you don't mind saying so and if you indeed are Mr Coppola, is there any chance of that link being downloaded into some other format so I can read it? I apologize in advance for my lack of computer terrain navigational skills! :)

Nope, not he.

-Bruce

[musicoverall]

OK, but I can't say I ever remember anyone actually saying that, so if you have a link.....



Hardly qualifies as a science book.....been a while since I've even been to that website....actually, I can't remember the last time, but it can be measured in years.

-Bruce

Do a search on Roger Russell on this forum and also on the Audio Lab. It's been quoted several times as the end-all, be-all of cable discussions. Ok, not a "science book" - poetic license on my part. How about "science materials, papers, studies, etc? All the stuff that says differences cannot be heard, usually based simply on LCR parameters.

[FLZapped]

Do a search on Roger Russell on this forum and also on the Audio Lab. It's been quoted several times as the end-all, be-all of cable discussions. Ok, not a "science book" - poetic license on my part. How about "science materials, papers, studies, etc? All the stuff that says differences cannot be heard, usually based simply on LCR parameters.


I'll look it up if the time permits, however, what would you like to use, if not LCR?

[superpanavision70mm]

So I decided to do some serious listening recently regarding some of my own cables. Here is what I did....

I took three songs that I know very well (CURTAINS from Elton John SACD CAPTAIN FANTASTIC, HIGHER GROUND from the Mobile Fidelity Gold CD INNERVISIONS by Stevie Wonder, and ENJOY THE SILENCE from Depeche Mode's VIOLATOR SACD.

I listened to each song (about a 1min. passage) through my system with my PS Audio Prelude xstream speaker cables. I then listened to the same with Xindak Foil Alloy Cables....a total transformation! The PS Audio's have a much thicker fuller sound, while the Xindak's were a bit more on the thinner side. I then decided to hook up a pair of AudioQuest GR-8s, which again changed the experience. They were a bit in-between the other too, but didn't have the fullness that I had been enjoying from the PS Audios. I then took some really cheap Monster low gauge cable that I had laying around and hooked that up. Not only did the sound change, but it was a radical shift in almost all categories. Now the sound seemed flatter and less punchy. I was also shocked by the limitations that it had as well.

I have experimented like this before and I have come to a satisfactory place with all my cables....I am currently using the following:

PS Audio xstreams for my towers.
Cobalt Cable for my center channel and surrounds.
Miova Interconnects, Tributaries Interconnects, BetterCables BlueTruth Interconnects.

I also decided to give the ole' power cable a bit of a test too. Here was the result.

This time I decided to focus in on changing the power cord to my amp and player. I went back and forth between the factor power cord and the Acoustic Zen 'Tsunami' cord that I currently use. I played the same source material and did some testing back and forth. Essentially at first the differences seem small, in fact I had to go back and forth a few times and at different volumes to hear some differences, but overall I noticed a huge difference when playing for extended periods of time. The factory cables didn't seem to let the player run nearly as smooth and the amp almost seemed exhausted. When using the Tsunami's everything seemed to be at top speed with excellent reproduction of the material and a overall fuller more complete sound. I also had a few other people take a listen and they agreed that the difference was small, but noticeable especially when you listened to it the second time around. I suppose it's like wine...some people think it all tastes the same, while others can immediately tell a difference or over time develop the senses to know various things about the wine.

[FLZapped]

Oh, that! Those comments were quite honestly based on various posts I've read from the so-called "objectivists" over the year or so I've been on this board. Actually, the first one was speculative based on my idea of why certain people can't/don't pick up differences in components/wire. Not too many objectivists have much experience with comparing components or, if they do, they refuse to share what, citing that it's irrelevant. It's *extremely* relevant - but that's another story!

Well, I don't know of any viable reference that suggests the statement made, what you appear to have described, to me, is literal deafness. As for what people may say, dunno, maybe it just wasn't worded as clearly as needed. The interpretive part of our brain is always active, whether is has a tangible effect on things as we percceive it, well, I'm afraid I may not be able to articulate that well, my own understanding is limited. We don't have a little light that comes on telling us when our perception of reality doesn't quite align with what is really there. For example, when we hear a plane fly overhead, do we look up because we expect it to be above us, or because our hearing can really place it there? Something that looks into this somewhat:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/3/869



The second I can easily support with the Roger Russell example, among many other references that are available as links to posts within the archives here at A/R. I could state it as "It's what I've learned from you"... "you" being the collective for folks on A/R with your POV.

The RR site isn't the best around, there are others I would visit over his site.
On place would be "True Audio" - an example:

http://www.trueaudio.com/post_008.htm

Another would be "Scots Guide" - a couple examples:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/Analog.html

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/cableshift/cp.html

-Bruce

[musicoverall]

Well, I don't know of any viable reference that suggests the statement made, what you appear to have described, to me, is literal deafness. As for what people may say, dunno, maybe it just wasn't worded as clearly as needed. The interpretive part of our brain is always active, whether is has a tangible effect on things as we percceive it, well, I'm afraid I may not be able to articulate that well, my own understanding is limited. We don't have a little light that comes on telling us when our perception of reality doesn't quite align with what is really there. For example, when we hear a plane fly overhead, do we look up because we expect it to be above us, or because our hearing can really place it there? Something that looks into this somewhat:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/3/869



The RR site isn't the best around, there are others I would visit over his site.
On place would be "True Audio" - an example:

http://www.trueaudio.com/post_008.htm

Another would be "Scots Guide" - a couple examples:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/Analog.html

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/cableshift/cp.html

-Bruce

I'll check into those links.

I also owe you an apology - yourself and the other "naysayers" (I HATE that name) for the post to which you originally responded. The comments you plucked out were defamatory and not at all accurate. I apologize. But I've also noticed that it has spawned some discussion on the rules around here so if a few things change, at least some good will come of it. :)

Happy listening!

[FLZapped]

I'll check into those links.

I also owe you an apology - yourself and the other "naysayers" (I HATE that name) for the post to which you originally responded. The comments you plucked out were defamatory and not at all accurate. I apologize. But I've also noticed that it has spawned some discussion on the rules around here so if a few things change, at least some good will come of it. :)

Happy listening!

No problem. Anyway, FINALLY getting back to topic after a long excursus. I'm currently using wire off a 500 foot spool given to me. It is speaker wire intended for installed applications. 12 AWG, twisted, jacketed and the insulation is fairly thin stuff on the actual wires and not bonded to the wire itself. Not something you'd want to use outside in the weather.

-Bruce

[emorphien]

Old thread, so I'm bumping it any way. I'm not sold on the differences between cables in the sense that $5000 cables will sound better than $500 or $50. There does seem to be truth in matching the electrical characteristics to the components you're using but I don't have money to throw at trying different things.

I've been using inexpensive part express cable for years, but I sure do love the look of those bigger fancier cables (lets say staying under $200 for a stereo pair if I had to pick a range). I suppose it's not entirely unreasonable to spend a bit extra for the aesthetic and the build quality, but beyond having the proper gauge I don't frankly give a damn about how it sounds. The difference is either too small or more than likely often non-existant.

I do love the look of those Audioquest Bedrock cables at AudioAdvisor. *swoon*

[jrhymeammo]

Damn Emo, it's 4:30am your time, and you are thinking about speaker cables? Damn it, it's late for me too. I shouldnt have bought that stupid RockStar.
Ahhhh I remember this thread. Oh boy..........

[blackraven]

I just bought a pair of Z4 monster cable speaker cables on Ebay for $180 ($600 list price), they sound no better than the $30 monster cable. I also picked up a pair of monster cable m100i interconnects for $30 ($200 retail list price) on ebay and they dont sound any better than my AR cables. What a waste of money.

[jrhymeammo]

Congratulation blackraven and welcome. Sounds like you can spend your money towards music instead of worrying about cables.

JRA

[JoeE SP9]

4 pairs of 4ft braided (27 twisted pair in triple braid 2x3x3x3) CAT-5 Ultra. Yep, I made them myself. They are cheap, look impressive and sound damn good.:ihih:

[PeruvianSkies]

My interconnects are WHITE ZOMBIE AUDIO, which are handmade and use silver. I also use WHITE ZOMBIE for my Digital Coax and my Subwoofer. I have alot of interconnects because I use them for 5.1 analog for SACD or DVD-A. They were $88/pair.

I used several kinds prior to these and found that these are the most superb for the price. They look great, sound even better, and have a really great build design with a locking RCA cap.

My towers are wired using PS Audio XStream cables, which are probably the fattest cables on the market...They are nearly 4 inches in diameter! I was using Monster, then AudioQuest prior and also demoed quite a few other choices, but went with the PS Audio because they delivered the best of high and low end. I think they were around $250/pair.

My power cables are Acoustic Zen "Tsunami", which are fantastic and were about $100. I also tried several prior to going with these, but they are incredibly well build and work terrific.