Benefits of a power amplifer?

[Lord Nikon]

I am trying to understand what all this stuff is. So if someone could explain the benefits/differences in say having a Parasound Halo C 2 and A 51, compared to say an Onkyo TX-NR1000?

[Lord Nikon]

I take it with an external amplifer I will get better sound and performance then with my Yamaha. Would it be in my best interest to purchase an external amp and hook it up to my L/R Mains through my Yamaha?

[topspeed]

Bottom line: Separates don't have the compromises that receivers do.

Receivers, especially mass market ones, have to stuff a preamp, surround processor, video processor, multiple amps, and enough dsp modes that you can replicate the actual acoustics of the third stall in the men's bathroom at Yankee Stadium, all into one convenient, market friendly chassis and all at a convenient, market friendly price. Corners will be cut. Usually the first place to get hit is the power supply, caps, and amp section. Why? Amps aren't sexy...DPLIIx and DTS Neo 6 are. I don't know about you, but I consider the amplifier to be rather important. Consider if you were trying to drive a full set of Martin Logan, Thiel, or other speakers that present difficult loads. How well do you really think a receiver's pathetic power supply is going to handle it?

Another advantage of using separates is that it allows you the flexibility to tailor the sound and features to best fit your needs. Whereas some companies may be excellent at building amps, they may not be as good at building pre/pros and vice versa. A lot of times, people will use tube pre's with ss amps to get a bit of that "tube magic" into their system. With a receiver you're stuck with whatever the designer deemed appropriate.

I applaud Onkyo for making their flagship upgradeable. Keep in mind, the C2 and pre/pro's from Lexicon and others have done this for awhile now. Still, I guarantee you that the NR1000 won't sound nearly as good as a good amp, especially a beast like the A51.

[topspeed]

I take it with an external amplifer I will get better sound and performance then with my Yamaha. Would it be in my best interest to purchase an external amp and hook it up to my L/R Mains through my Yamaha?
It depends on what your speakers are and how seriously you take this hobby. For the vast majority of consumers, the Yammie hooked up to reasonably efficient speakers will be just fine. For the truly deranged, only the grip and control a separate amp provides will suffice so many (such as yours truly) will add an amp to drive the mains. This is particularly true with speakers that present difficult speaker loads. Only you can decide which side of the fence you stand on.

[Lord Nikon]

Well I have a pair of Mirage Omni 250's as my mains. When I auditioned them they were hooked up to a parasound setup which made me drool. I think with a external amp I just may get improved sound and clarity.

[Quagmire]

Bottom line: Separates don't have the compromises that receivers do.

Receivers, especially mass market ones, have to stuff a preamp, surround processor, video processor, multiple amps, and enough dsp modes that you can replicate the actual acoustics of the third stall in the men's bathroom at Yankee Stadium, all into one convenient, market friendly chassis and all at a convenient, market friendly price. Corners will be cut. Usually the first place to get hit is the power supply, caps, and amp section. Why? Amps aren't sexy...DPLIIx and DTS Neo 6 are. I don't know about you, but I consider the amplifier to be rather important. Consider if you were trying to drive a full set of Martin Logan, Thiel, or other speakers that present difficult loads. How well do you really think a receiver's pathetic power supply is going to handle it?

Another advantage of using separates is that it allows you the flexibility to tailor the sound and features to best fit your needs. Whereas some companies may be excellent at building amps, they may not be as good at building pre/pros and vice versa. A lot of times, people will use tube pre's with ss amps to get a bit of that "tube magic" into their system. With a receiver you're stuck with whatever the designer deemed appropriate.

I applaud Onkyo for making their flagship upgradeable. Keep in mind, the C2 and pre/pro's from Lexicon and others have done this for awhile now. Still, I guarantee you that the NR1000 won't sound nearly as good as a good amp, especially a beast like the A51.
Excellent post, Topspeed.

I've been making some of these same points regarding this subject for years now. Back when "audibility issues" were hotly debated back and forth, I pointed out that there were legitimate reasons (such as the ones you mentioned) to go with seperates, even setting aside whether one can actually hear "differences" or not. The belief held by many on these boards was that owning seperates was merely a status thing and that those who invested in them were essentially just elitist audio snobs. I don't believe that's true, or that you have to be into seperates to be an audio snob. One of the things that I've said about seperates is that regardless of what most folks think about them, few who go that route ever have regrets for having done so or are willing to go back to a one box solution. Adding to the list that you started, I would include the increased flexibilty that seperates affords one, by allowing such things as adding EQ in the audio string, changing/adding/removing amps without replacing the upstream components such as processing, preamp, tuner, etc..., or updating/replacing these upstream components without having to replace the amp: There have been many new formats introduced over the years, but the need for good quality amplification remains constant. A good reliable amp can last many years, through many changes in sound/surround formats. When viewed from this perspective, seperates not only make sense from a performance point of view, but from a practical and financial point of view as well. Just my $0.02

Once again, Topspeed... very good post and very well said IMO.

Q

[Lord Nikon]

I was thinking of getting the parasound halo A 23, if I am able to hook that up to my Yamaha HTR-5760?

[Quagmire]

I was thinking of getting the parasound halo A 23, if I am able to hook that up to my Yamaha HTR-5760?
I don't have any personal experience with that amp, so if you're asking for a recommendation, I don't have one for you. Generally, I think Parasound makes fairly good equipment and is well respected, but so are a host of other manufacturers.

I'm curious as to why you're thinking of making this upgrade. You mention adding an amp to the front L & R speakers but for what purpose? Better performance for stereo music listening? Better performance for HT? Exactly what is your goal?

As much as I've touted the benefits of seperates, it's only fair to say that you could make such an upgrade without any real discernable improvement in sound quality. This is a hotly debatible topic and you must draw your own conclussions before you spend your hard earned cash. If your goal is better performance for stereo music listening, then it is my OPINION and ONLY MY OPINION, that yes, you may achieve an improvement in sound quality which, although marginal, could be worthwhile to you nonetheless. If your goal is better performance for HT then I think the addition of an outboard amp for only the L & R front channels doesn't make much sense, UNLESS... you have large front speakers and no sub so that the LFE is being sent to the front mains. Otherwise, any "improvement" in sound for the front mains will simply get lost in the five channel surround mix. If better HT performance is your goal then it makes more sense to add a multichannel amp, such as a three channel amp for the front L/C/R speakers or one that upgrades ALL of the amp channels. Ultimately it's up to you decide whether such an upgrade meets your goals and if doing so does indeed result in an improvement in sound. Best of luck, regardless of what you decide.

Q

[Lord Nikon]

I currently have a 5.1 HT set up, but of course listen to cd's in 2-channel stereo. If my research is correct, a multichannel amp would cost more when the only thing I would like to improve is my music listening. The home theatre aspect is good enough power wise.

My speakers are 50/50 when it comes to Home Theatre/Music listening. I was pondering adding the external amp for 2-channel stereo music listening. I guess once the speakers are hooked up the the external they will be active during movies and music. My interest for this upgrade would be souly for music. I figured with a dedicated amplifier for stereo music listening there would be more clarity and improved sound for these speakers instead of using my multichannel 7.1 a/v receiver. There would also be a wattage upgrade from my 110x7 watt a/v receiver to a larger 125x2 watt mosfet amp.

What I am trying to determine is if it would be worth the $800 upgrade to this amplifer sound wise, or to just remain with the a/v receiver. I have heard this amp on these speakers in the show room, and the yamaha is at home of course. It's hard to use that information since they both aren't at my home.

[Olivertmc]

Lord Nikon:

I recently upgraded my front left and right channels for enhanced 2 channel music listening. I purchased a Parasound HCA-1000A and connected it to a Marantz SR-5000. The difference in sound quality was substantial. One of my biggest complaints with my prior system was that I could not follow bass lines that went into more "mid-range" frequencies. The addition of the power amp cleaned up the sound, not only with respect to the bass, but also added dimension to the sound overall. I purchased through Audioadvisor (matt was very helpful).

- Olivertmc

[Lord Nikon]

Lord Nikon:

I recently upgraded my front left and right channels for enhanced 2 channel music listening. I purchased a Parasound HCA-1000A and connected it to a Marantz SR-5000. The difference in sound quality was substantial. One of my biggest complaints with my prior system was that I could not follow bass lines that went into more "mid-range" frequencies. The addition of the power amp cleaned up the sound, not only with respect to the bass, but also added dimension to the sound overall. I purchased through Audioadvisor (matt was very helpful).

- Olivertmc

How physically do you hook up the external amp to the a/v receiver? I looked at the website and the back of the amp but it looked foreign to me. :) Here are the specs for my speakers. How much wattage would be best for them? The amp doesn't even have to be parasound. My price limit is $1k or less. So recommendations guys would rock!

Frequency Response: 40Hz-20KHz, +/- 3dB
Amplifier Power: Up to 150-watts RMS/Channel

[topspeed]

Thanks for the kind words Q.

Lord Nikon,
To add an outboard amp, you plug it into the pre-outs in the back of your Yammie for the front L/R speakers and then connect the speaker wires to the amp. Now your Yammie will power the center and surrounds while the other amp will drive your mains. This is a great solution if you like listening to music in two channel. If you're more into multi-channel hi-rez or prefer listening to your music processed by DPLII or some other hoo-haa, you might be better off adding at least a 3 channel amp to drive your front stage or just go for whole enchilada w/ a 5 channel.

Recommendation for amps up to $1K? Rotel, Parasound, B&K, Anthem, Outlaw, Arcam, Adcom Jolida, or Cayin for NIB's. If you don't mind going used (used amps are pretty safe buys; no moving parts to wear out), your money will go a lot further at audiogon.com. Keep an eye out for Bryston, Threshold, Classe, Pass, ARC, BAT, Bel Canto, and PS Audio. All kinds of good stuff within your budget so take your time and enjoy the search. Creating system synergy is half the fun!

Hope this helps.

[piece-it pete]

Just a comment: from a straight objective view an external 2 channel amp should make a difference for HT too, just 'cause it takes the ... 37% IIRC average of sound going to the mains off the internal HT amp. More headroom for the center and rears.

Subjectively, who knows?

Pete

[Olivertmc]

Lord Nikon:

Just to add to Topspeed's comments, you will most likely need to re-calibrate your system (I certainly did) because the levels between your speakers will be out of whack with the added power to the front mains. Just something to keep in mind . . .

- Olivertmc

[Lord Nikon]

YPAO will knock that one out the block! I think I've narrowed down the 2 amps that I like in price to Parasound HCA-1000A and HCA-1500A My speakers can handle 150watt RMS and the 1000 is 125x2, 1500 is 205x2 (a little higher than needed considering the price difference).

[topspeed]

FWIW, there's a noticeable difference between the HCA's and Halo's.

[Lord Nikon]

Ohhhhh :) :)

[Woochifer]

I think the benefits of an external power amp will vary depending on the types of speakers that you use and the size of your room. The more demanding the speakers, and the larger the room, then the greater the benefit to going with a more powerful amp. In some instances, for example with low impedance monitors or panel speakers, a midlevel receiver will not be able to handle more than two speakers at a time. In those cases with those types of speakers, going with an external amp is not just for sound quality, it's also the only way that you use a multichannel speaker setup and avoid overloading the receiver.

In general, I think the amplification is an upgrade that you do after you've taken care of the speakers and the room acoustics, because those factors have far greater variability and impact on the sound of your system. In my listenings, the step up in sound quality with separates compared to receivers is there, but it's a subtle upgrade and one that may not have the bang for the buck that other changes to your system will. Aside from tube amps, you're not going to pick up on huge variations between amps during normal listening.

Differences between preamps/receivers will differ more because their processing capabilities vary a lot more.

[kexodusc]

This is a good thread with a lot of solid advice.

I agree completely with what Woochifer has said about speakers and room acoustics being the top priority in the chain for improving your system in a cost-effective manner. There comes a point where you will go back to looking at your equipment though.

I think adding amps to receivers is an excellent idea that can add a reasonable amount of performance improvement. On my last receiversystem (RX-V795a) I dud noticed a good improvement in 2-channel listening by using separate amps, especially at louder volumes. For home theater, it was a must for me as I listen to alot of music DVD's with "active" surround channels". With my newer RX-V1400, the difference is stlll their, but maybe not quite as much. That's okay though, I already had a few amps.

My main stereo system in my basement studio room where I do my most critical music listening has a modest Rotel Integrated amp which is a step up on the separate amp/receiver combo upstairs (though I seem to use this less and less these days). But considering the price, I can't say I didn't suffer diminishing returns on my investment. But I'm happy, so life is good.

For the HT/casual 2-channel system upstairs I've done quite well buying budget amps on audiogon, yard sales, and pawn shops. My favorite budget amps include NAD, Carver, Rotel, and especially Adcom and even AudioSource. AudioSource makes great inexpensive power amps. And there's always a ton of NAD or Adcom stuff out there.

I'd recommend dropping $100-$150 on a used Adcom GFA-535, or used Parasound or something for starters before diving into some of the more refined gear like a Bryston.. It's a good, low risk experiment. You can always resell the amp. You should be able to tell fast enough if good clean dedicated power makes a difference in your system with YOUR listening habbits, or if it's just an unecessary expense for you, not adding much value.

Like Topspeed said, the differences aren't astronomical, and for many, aren't even worth the bother. But for some of us....