Why Mess With A Turntable?

[gillsev]

In this age of instant gratification and convenience, why are still some of us going the extra mile to play a record, when you can just pop in a CD and forget it. Why mess with the cleaning of vinyl and tolerate clicks and pops when you can get the "perfect" sound with full dynamic range from digital?

Sure, if it was just convenience I am after (besides the "cleaner" sound), I will choose digital - no question. But I think that is besides the point to my enjoyment. For me personally, listening is just 70% of my enjoyment. The other 30% goes to seeing. When I observe my turntable, I like watching my record against a massive platter (as it builds momentum) and maintaining its inertia on this dynamically balanced flywheel. The tonearm that does the "real job" of extracting the music from its fine grooves is like a fine musical instrument just as a bow would extract a note from strings.

The automatic function would just be a bonus, but not really equivalent to my initial appreciation mentioned above. I do however use my Garrard Lab 80 more than my manual FrankenThorens for nostalgic reasons.

A record player is a work of art that you can appreciate visually while listening to music.
Here is my FrankenThorens as my backup TT (with Rega RB300 tonearm) sporting a Red 2M Ortofon ...

[Mr Peabody]

I would have thought the Thorens to have superior sound quality, is that not the case.

For me, I started with vinyl before anyone could imagine CD, so I'm used to it. There are things in my collection that never came to CD. My collection was already good sized and I couldn't see replacing everything. With that said I did come to a cross road where I asked myself if I wanted to continue keeping this collection and continue with a turntable. This came about when I began to add what I'd call true high end stereo gear to my system and my old Pioneer TT became a weak link. I had already gotten rid of my tuner. After borrowing a Rega turntable and just being blown away that vinyl could sound that good I decided to continue with my LP's and sunk money into a decent turntable rig. I am not going to debate which is better, CD/TT, I like them both. Like you if I'm tired I will throw on a CD for convenience but if I have the time and energy I will spin some of the black platters. If I had known vinyl could sound this good back in the 80's when the CD came about I sure wouldn't have jumped on the band wagon so soon. The discontinuing of new releases on vinyl would have forced it eventually though.

The turntable does have a nastalgia and art form to it, doesn't it?

[poppachubby]

Why mess with the cleaning of vinyl and tolerate clicks and pops when you can get the "perfect" sound with full dynamic range from digital?

You would be incorrect in this statement. Classical and jazz tend to have great dynamic range on CD. However, popular music has been degenerating for years now. Dynamic range has been decreasing over the years in what is now known as the "Loudness War".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Metallica's latest release, Death Magnetic is supposed to be the most compressed album ever released. There's virtually no range whatsoever. Frightening.

What's really scary is the re-mastering of classics which already contain great range. They will compress them into a rangeless mess. I can speak from experience on this from a vast number of titles, but there was one that really stood out recently. Supertramp's "Crime of the Century" has been RM'd twice, and in it's current form sounds awful. I have an original pressing and the difference is staggering. Considering that this is (was?) an excellent recording with fantastic range which lended to the mood of the LP, they have done fans a HUGE disservice.

This topic is enough for me to lean on vinyl as my main medium. I can rip an original LP into my computer, and turn it into a lossless file. Another thing I do, is run a TT into my soundcard and process it into 24/96. Speaking from the point of view of the compression subject, it's a wonderful alternative to a CD.

Compression exists on vinyl as well, however, they can only get away with a limited amount due to the physical makeup of a record and its grooves.

Your Thorens is a great table and the 2M must sound brilliant with it. My next big upgrade will be a table and I have been giving much consideration to the Thorens TD-160.
Must give the garrard a run for it's money.

Anyhow, I'll finish by saying that yes indeed, vinyl vs CD is a preference. I have the full gambit of digital ability. My CDP mostly rests but my soundcard is an integral part of my system, I listen to it daily. You may want to consider the combination of TT into a soundcard for more than just ripping.

Great post gilllsev!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You would be incorrect in this statement. Classical and jazz tend to have great dynamic range on CD. However, popular music has been degenerating for years now. Dynamic range has been decreasing over the years in what is now known as the "Loudness War".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Poppa, I wouldn't confuse poor mastering habits with the dynamic range of the format itself. CD has far greater dynamic range capabilities than vinyl does, it just that marketing bean heads like louder better than quality.

Metallica's latest release, Death Magnetic is supposed to be the most compressed album ever released. There's virtually no range whatsoever. Frightening.

What's really scary is the re-mastering of classics which already contain great range. They will compress them into a rangeless mess. I can speak from experience on this from a vast number of titles, but there was one that really stood out recently. Supertramp's "Crime of the Century" has been RM'd twice, and in it's current form sounds awful. I have an original pressing and the difference is staggering. Considering that this is (was?) an excellent recording with fantastic range which lended to the mood of the LP, they have done fans a HUGE disservice.

This is what happens when your format gets used as a playback source for radio. Once again, this is a marketing decision, not a limitation of the format itself.

Anyhow, I'll finish by saying that yes indeed, vinyl vs CD is a preference. I have the full gambit of digital ability. My CDP mostly rests but my soundcard is an integral part of my system, I listen to it daily. You may want to consider the combination of TT into a soundcard for more than just ripping.

Great post gilllsev!

I wish I had the love for vinyl that some of you guys have. I guess I have access to so much high quality digital audio gear that sounds so good, the hassles of vinyl are just not appealing to me.

[gillsev]

[QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible
I wish I had the love for vinyl that some of you guys have. I guess I have access to so much high quality digital audio gear that sounds so good, the hassles of vinyl are just not appealing to me.[/QUOTE]

The love for vinyl is beyond sound. It is a mixture of nostalgia, sentimentality, and art appreciation combined that makes a stronger appeal for the vinyl enthusiast. Observing a turntable at play is an awesome experience. To watch the stylus hit the groove mounted on a finely crafted tonearm is hypnotic to say the least. Every time a record is played, it sounds a bit different from the previous audition. It has soul in it. The ritual in cleaning/ brushing the record before play makes it all the more worthwhile as it heightens the expectation as if a true priviledge earned for the music so well deserving to be heard.

None of these experiences are available on CD's. You just press play and forget it. And they all sound the same every time. Uniformity.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The love for vinyl is beyond sound. It is a mixture of nostalgia, sentimentality, and art appreciation combined that makes a stronger appeal for the vinyl enthusiast. Observing a turntable at play is an awesome experience. To watch the stylus hit the groove mounted on a finely crafted tonearm is hypnotic to say the least. Every time a record is played, it sounds a bit different from the previous audition. It has soul in it. The ritual in cleaning/ brushing the record before play makes it all the more worthwhile as it heightens the expectation as if a true priviledge earned for the music so well deserving to be heard.

None of these experiences are available on CD's. You just press play and forget it. And they all sound the same every time. Uniformity.

I guess your last sentence is exactly why I like CD - consistency. I guess I like the fact that a good CD will sound good every time I play it. The idea that a recording will sound different to me each day makes my listening experience a floating target.

I guess I always thought the soul was in the artists playing or singing, not in the reproduction process. I usually clean my CD's before loading them, but does not evoke any emotional response from me doing the process. I guess I am more attached to the performance than to the disc.

[scrivens]

Poppa, I wouldn't confuse poor mastering habits with the dynamic range of the format itself. CD has far greater dynamic range capabilities than vinyl does, it just that marketing bean heads like louder better than quality.



.

A digital representation of an analogue source e.g. Music! cannot possibly have a wider dynamic range than the analogue FACT

If you could have a CD player with infinite WORD length & infinite OVER-SAMPLING of an infinite number of tracks you would have the Analogue of the source. This is why DDD stands for the 3-stages of degradation

Vinyl has much greater dynamic headroom than CD

an example from VDU's :-
a vector-scanning monitor can draw a straight line from A to B on the diagonal, whereas a normal raster monitor has to run a huge-recursive algorhythm to produce a step-like approximation.

A similar situation occurs when trying to represent wave-forms e.g. music in digital media...the player has to over-sample , run huge algorhythms and then convert its out put back to analogue.

A record player just produces an analogue of the analogue. In other words the value of the product is not wasted doing un-musical computing.

Sorry mate its just Physics

If you are representing discrete information Digital is fine, but for continuous information, analogue is better..this is why we still use oscilloscopes

[gillsev]

My project is finally done ... so let's play it! (Forgive the slight distortion, as it is the limitation of my camera's mic to capture it) Sounds much better in actual location.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9SBsATIqnE

[jrhymeammo]

My project is finally done ... so let's play it! (Forgive the slight distortion, as it is the limitation of my camera's mic to capture it) Sounds much better in actual location.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9SBsATIqnE

Nice!! I've been tempted by Thorens recently.
I had placed an order for TD160 Super last night, but I had decided to cancel 5 minutes later...

JRA

[Hairsonfire]

No, wait, that's climbing mountains. I have always wanted one and recently purchased the Music Hall MMF 9.1 and a Jolida JD9 phono stage and told myself that if I was not thrilled I would return it within the seven days for a refund. Well, I am thrilled. I still have some listening to do but I must say that I very much enjoy the entire tactile as well as audiophile experience. It is a work of art as well as engineering which appeals to both sides of my noodle. Not only that but it feels, in some way, refreshing to take a step back when listening to music required some thought, planning and effort, as opposed to the fast food version of listening we see so much of nowadays - nonstop earbud wearing.

[Auricauricle]

Man, if you have to fret about the "inconveniences" of using a TT, you just shouldn't be here...!

[gillsev]

Man, if you have to fret about the "inconveniences" of using a TT, you just shouldn't be here...!

Huh...?

[gillsev]

Ahhh ... I'd probably sell my FrankenThorens one of these days and get me my ultimate dream Thorens which is nothing but the TD 124 (with SME 3009). I've always wanted one of this. Maybe a couple more years, I will join the cult.

THE CULT

There are quite a few proud owners of the legendary TD 124 turntable. The reasons why they own this turntable, designed and manufactured with the legendary Swiss precision, are manyfold.
Some have acquired this model because they have become analog addicts and choose for a reproduction of the legendary records and want to use one of the best machines available in the era of Decca SXLs, Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft SLPEMs Red Stereos, RCAs LSC shaded dogs, Philips HiFi-Stereos, SAXs, HMV ASDs and American Columbia 6 eye labels. The aim of these music lovers is achieving a sound reproduction in style.
Then there are the collectors of vintage audio equipment and no collection is complete without a TD-124.

[02audionoob]

I used to have an arm like that. It joined the cult of the eBay.

[gillsev]

Now on the market ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220548832954

So I can get that TD 124 !!!

[poppachubby]

Great deal with all of the tweaks too. Good luck Gillsev but I doubt you'll need it. Keep me posted on your Thorens hunt please.

[gillsev]

Great deal with all of the tweaks too. Good luck Gillsev but I doubt you'll need it. Keep me posted on your Thorens hunt please.

I will Pops! I REALLY want that TD124 man! I'm a vintage kinda guy, you know

(I already got 109 watchers on my TT)

[poppachubby]

I will Pops! I REALLY want that TD124 man! I'm a vintage kinda guy, you know

(I already got 109 watchers on my TT)

LOL I'm one of them. I think alot of people will want to see the outcome. Should get a nice price with everything included. Wish I had the funds, but a new TT isn't in the stars for a while yet. I guess that'll make it that much sweeter.

The TD 124 while legendary. isn't my favorite Thorens. I much prefer what you are selling, a tweaked out 160.

BTW, check out this link I found. Maybe you've already seen it...http://www.theanalogdept.com/garrard_gallery.htm If not enjoy!!

[gillsev]

BTW, check out this link I found. Maybe you've already seen it...http://www.theanalogdept.com/garrard_gallery.htm If not enjoy!!

Yeah I've seen Steve Clarke's website on Thorens (analogdept.com). Pretty extensive! Thanks though
Here is another one ... but on the TD 124 (& other interesting topics) ...

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/td124page.html

[gillsev]

Hey Pops, I think I'll back out on selling my TD 320. I might pull it off the Bay by Friday. I was just thinking that I might not be able to get the kind of money that I want for it. If only I could get at least $1K, I might go for it (as that would be the exact cost to get my TD 124). But I really doubt it would even go near that figure.

Come to think of it, the TD 320 is an outstanding Thorens. If compared to today's Thorens equivalent, it would now be called the TD 350 (with the same suspended subchassis design). And the cost of that model today is QUADRUPLE!!!!

http://www.needledoctor.com/Thorens-...2&category=355

And all I'm asking for mine is a thousand. Anything below that is just giving it away (after all the tweaks and additional accessories that will come with it).
Heck, I'll just keep it.

As for the TD 124 ... it can wait. No sense in rushing into it by giving away the TD 320. Boy, that would be the most stupid mistake!

[v rod]

poppa u are right,ther's just something about playing albums.u either get it or u dont.my humble technics tt brings hours of enjoyment!

[poppachubby]

Ya, good idea. It's a shame about items like that, you can never get what they're worth in dollars. A buddy of mine just went through the motions with a wonderful pair of KEF speakers, only to realise he would have to keep them.

I will be sitting on my TT's for another year realistically. The next purchase will hopefully be the last.

[gillsev]

Ya, good idea. It's a shame about items like that, you can never get what they're worth in dollars. A buddy of mine just went through the motions with a wonderful pair of KEF speakers, only to realise he would have to keep them.

I will be sitting on my TT's for another year realistically. The next purchase will hopefully be the last.

"Take Two" Pops!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...STRK:MESELX:IT

[hifitommy]

oh poppa,

" The next purchase will hopefully be the last."

i really dont THINK so. ones thinking changes over the course of years. once you get what you think you want, something changes your mind. i am happy with my sota but would love to try a basis tt with basis arm. or a walker proscenium or rockport sirius.

of course those choices are budget indicate and/or limited/enabled. there is always another tier.

that also goes for cartridges. the one i would most be interested in hearing in my system is the A90. $4200 list price. juki in hong kong would likely give a better price but still not in my reach at present.

of course the system would need to keep up with that level. if you can afford those things, then the system will follow along.

just some sage advice from your uncle tommy.

[poppachubby]

"Take Two" Pops!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...STRK:MESELX:IT

This will be interesting. Does it come with a midget?